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The AIH Transcript for September 27, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: Kids these days. Hundreds of thousands of people -- many of whom cut school for the day -- fill the streets of cities around the world with a message about the climate for do-nothing politicians: do something.

CH: The worse for being told what to wear. Quebec's controversial religious symbols law is already facing a constitutional challenge -- and now a group of multi-faith teachers have followed suit by filing a suit.

CO: You never can tell. Journalist Marie-Maude Denis convinces Canada's Supreme Court to set strict new rules on when police can force a journalist to give up a confidential source.

CH: The 'Trane you've been waiting for. As of today you can finally hear our guest's years-long passion project: previously unreleased music by John Coltrane, recorded for a Quebec filmmaker in 1964.

CO: Your goose is as good as mine. Yes, they're nasty, and they are hell bent on carpeting the planet with their excrement -- but a trip to the "As It Happens" archives shows geese can feel love too -- even if it's for a garbage can.

CH: And auto-biographical details. More than 50 years ago a retired car salesman from St. John's sold the first ever Ford Mustang -- and today he was reunited with the old pony at the Henry Ford Museum. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that knows the thing about classic-car salesmen is: they always returned to the scene of the chrome.

[Music]

Part 1: Journalist applauds 'historic' Supreme Court ruling that shields her confidential source

Climate march

Guests: Trevor Rollins & Mia Beijer

CH: Hundreds of thousands of people across the country walked out of school, skipped work, and closed up their shops today to demand action on climate change.

SOUNDCLIP

[People chanting]

VOICE 1: Well I want to be here for my kid so he can have a nice planet for him.

REPORTER: How old is he?

VOICE 1: He's 2-years-old.

VOICE 2: I want somewhere to live and there is no planet-B.

REPORTER: How do you think climate change is going to affect you when you're my age?

VOICE 2: I think it's not going to be that good to live here.

VOICE 3: It gives me hope for my future. Like I'm worried about the climate and how it's getting worse and that cities will start disappearing from the rising sea levels. So it gives me hope that maybe we'll do something about this -- you know to make a better future.

VOICE 4: We come here together -- protectors of Turtle Island -- to say we will not tolerate excuses. Today we come together, millions of brothers and sisters from across the world, to say: change is here!

VOICE 5: Everybody's been looking away from climate change for too long. And if this will make a difference then I'm going to take pride in it.

CH: The sound of climate change protests in Montreal, Halifax, Toronto, Corner Brook, and Regina. Just a few of the many marches that took place across the country and around the world today. In Montreal, protesters were joined by teenage activist Greta Thunberg -- and Trevor Rollins was among them. He's a coordinator with the Montreal advocacy group "Our time" and part of a national campaign calling for a Green New Deal in Canada. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Trevor can you describe the scene around you right now?

TREVOR ROLLINS: Everybody's excited. It seems like every third person has their own handmade banner. There are chants erupting everywhere. There are drums going on. It's impossible to get a sense of the size or the scale but it's really exciting.

CO: Now we've seen everywhere in the world these handmade signs that young people are making their own posters with some really interesting slogans. What are some of the things you see around you?

TR: Okay. In my field of vision there's: "Fashion is killing our planet." There is "The planet is even hotter than my boyfriend." There is "Planet-B." Right now I'm holding a banner that's solidarity with the Unist'ot'en camp out in B.C.

CO: And we'll just tell people that there is no "Planet-B." That's the translation of the one sign you read.

TR: Yes exactly.

CO: And so that's really important thing, isn't it? That everybody comes with their own idea of what they want this movement to be.

TR: Absolutely. I think everyone feels their place in this. Both a little bit in their responsibility and of course fear for the future. And doing what they can to make it a bit better.

CO: We know that Greta Thunberg is part of this today. That speech she gave at the United Nations had a big effect on people. What effect do you think it's had on the reason why so many people have turned out? What effect has she had on this movement?

TR: I mean she's been an inspiration to everyone but especially the youth. I think it's changed everyone's perception of who and what you have to be, to be a climate activist. Yeah it's just kind of inquire a lot of people. And her message is so clear and direct. You have to respect that. [Crowd noise in background]

CO: Okay I can hear a bit of the crowd sound there. What's happening right now?

TR: There's just spontaneous sporadic burst of cheering that is going on. It's pretty great.

CO: And what has it meant to see Justin Trudeau there today? Has anyone had anything to say to him?

TR: To Trudeau -- yeah well most of the people here aren't exactly supportive of him being here because he bought a pipeline and his climate track-record...[Crowd starts chanting: Climate Leaders Don't Buy Pipelines]

CO: Okay on cue you have someone saying that. [Crowd continues the chant]

TR: And in the context of Greta being there as well -- I mean she's already called him out on buying a pipeline and being a bit of a hypocrite in his climate promises. So it may not actually work in his favor politically as him showing up.

CO: And other party leaders have appeared at marches today but not Andrew Scheer. What do you make of that?

TR: Well he seems like he hasn't really even been trying to pretend that he cares much for the climate. I can't say I'm surprised. Disappointed of course. It would be great if the Conservatives showed a bit of support for the climate movement. But not the way it's happening.

CO: Do people there -- do the young people you speak with do they feel that climate change has had a big enough part of the election campaign -- that it is as important to those campaigning as it is to all of you on the street?

TR: Well we hope so. It feels like it is here right now but we haven't seen enough of it. I don't think there's been enough coverage. In fact we held a protest in July asking for CBC to host a federal leaders debate. But that hasn't happened. So it'd be great if we had more coverage and bringing the candidates out in the open to the talk in detail about their plan. I think what would really help people is if we heard some details, specific actions, that the candidates or parties would do to help climate change. Just to show that they're actually working on this that they're getting into the detail then we have some things to look forward to.

CO: Do you think that the energy you're seeing today will continue? The weather's nice and Greta Thunberg has been a big inspiration. But do you think that you can keep this energy -- this momentum -- going?

TR: I think so. I think there's a reason that this is the biggest climate demonstration ever worldwide. And everyone is just feeling the pressure of 11 years left from the IPCC report to make drastic action to stop climate change. And I don't think it's going to stop -- we need some sort of change and there is some kind of consensus because there are so many different groups working all over the world to enact climate justice working together.

CO: All right Trevor we'll let you get back to marching. And good to talk to you. Thank you.

TR: Thank you so much. Take care.

CH: Trevor Rollins is a coordinator with the Montreal advocacy group "Our Time." He was part of the climate march in Montreal today. Marchers all across the country have been led by young people -- young women in particular. Not just Greta Thunberg but thousands more like her. Mia Beijer is one of them. She's a Grade 11 student who's been striking on Parliament Hill almost every Friday since January. We reached her in Montreal.

CO: Mia what does it mean for you to be in Montreal today?

MIA BEIJER: Personally this is amazing. There are so many people here gathered and right now Greta is speaking and I can hear her wisdom and I can hear the crowd responding to it and just the energy even from blocks away is amazing.

CO: What have you been thinking and saying about Greta Thunberg?

MB: For me I am very much introverted. And I have been taking part in civil disobedience for social and climate justice since I was 5. But I had never thought of starting something myself and leading and organizing a climate justice group for youth until I saw Greta someone who was like me: very introverted and shy and didn't want to get out of their bubble but was almost forced to because no one else was stepping up. So seeing her inspired me to stand up and create a safe space for youth to stand up with me.

CO: Greta Thunberg had a lot of support from her parents. What kind of support -- what kind of reaction -- have your own parents and family given you?

MB: Well I'm homeschooled so as part of our education was my mom taking us out to do some climate justice movement. And like I said I started protesting and marching and rallying when I was 5. And my mom actually had to kind of push me along in this as well and say, "You can do this. You have the support of your family. You have the support of your friends. And you have the support of the youth around the world. You can do this and your voice will be heard. It might be very difficult for you." And it is very difficult for me but they have always been there to support me. Whenever I felt extremely depressed I would turn to them and they would support me. And when things get really really difficult they are the ones who support me and they are the ones who helped me see that things are changing and people are listening.

CO: When you talk about that there are so many things that just affect you emotionally -- what kinds of emotions do you have around this issue of climate change?

MB: I honestly feel like at some points adults are digging us into this hole that we can't climb out of. And we are almost trapped and we're helpless because a lot of the times people say that the power is in the vote and it is -- there is power in the vote, but we also forget that we have power in our voices and in our knowledge and in striking and taking the streets and disrupting the system that needs to function in order for governments and corporations to continue killing our futures. And...sorry I am very overwhelmed right now so I'm kind of losing my train of thought.

CO: No no. Your being overwhelmed is very predictable or understandable because of what you're confronting. It really affects you and so many young people because it's your future, isn't it.

MB: Yeah. Yeah. And for older generations it is very much so a fight for their children. But for us younger generations it is a fight for ourselves. You know a lot of us aren't even considering having children because adults have not provided a sustainable future for us. And so how could we possibly think of having kids bring into this world as well. And that, in and of itself, is a terrifying thought.

CO: Your view -- it is so bleak and so hopeless, what does give you hope? At this point what is keeping you going? What gives you any kind of hope?

MB: When I come out and I see youth and adults supporting us and standing up against these governments and corporations and saying that this isn't good enough and we're not going to allow you to continue with business as usual and we are going to stand up and we're going to fight back with everything we have. Like my grandfather said -- he was very much so a right-wing thinker but now seeing the effects this movement has had on me and seeing the fight that we have ahead of us he has changed, and his point of view that he's had for 81 years -- and he's now saying that we really didn't [inaudible] that and we need to stand with you and we need to stand with the youth and we need to fight against this system because it's not good enough anymore. And knowing that youth are coming out and speaking the truth, adults are coming and supporting us in speaking the truth...that gives me hope.

CO: Mia you're an inspiration and I hope you have the strength to continue. Thank you.

MB: Thank you very much.

CH: Mia Beijer is a Grade 11 student from Ottawa who was in Montreal for today's climate strike. We reached her earlier today.

[Music]

Supreme Court ruling: journalist Marie-Maude Denis

Guest: Marie-Maude Denis

CH: It will take more than that to make Marie-Maude Denis give up her source. Ms. Denis is the host of Radio Canada's flagship investigative program "Enquete." This morning, the Supreme Court ruled that she didn't have to reveal the name of the confidential source of one of her program's scoops about public corruption in Quebec. The case is the first major test of a new federal law that bolsters the ability of journalists to protect confidential sources. We reached Marie-Maude Denis in Montreal.

CO: Marie-Maude what was the reaction at "Enquete" -- your place of work -- when you got the news today?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: It was fantastic Carol. We all gathered and until 9:45 we weren't allowed to know the decision but then our lawyers came down and we were all in the conference room and we just cheered and applauded. It was a great moment.

CO: And great moment, why? What does it represent for journalism in Canada?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: Well it represents that the highest court in the country says that the protection of of the sources is important and it's in the last resort that you can make a journalist testify about confidential sources and it has to be in the highest public interest. And the main thing it says that the new law giving more protection to confidential sources it's the first interpretation and it goes in the direction of giving an increased protection. And the language used by the judges is very strong to describe the paramount importance of investigative journalism and the protection of the sources.

CO: What did they say about why this is important?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: It says that it's clearly wanted by our government to go in the direction of giving additional protection. And that was so bad about the decision of the Superior Court of Quebec because the judge of the Superior Court says no -- that the new law doesn't change anything. And the Supreme Court says it changes everything because the burden of proving you don't have to reveal a source is not anymore on the journalist's shoulder, it's on the party that wants to force the journalists to testify on their sources. And it's a big burden because it has to be in a case of complete necessity and in the highest public interest. And the judges of the Supreme Court say that protecting the sources are also of great public interest for a country.

CO: So basically the onus is on the police or the courts to prove that they have to have material from a journalist and not the journalist who has to defend the reason why they don't turn over the information about their sources -- is that what's changed?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: Exactly. And in this case we have Marc-Yvan Cote who's accused of corruption, fraud, and he wants a stay of the proceedings. And he alleges that there was some kind of a plot from the justice system to leak confidential documents to me in order to deprive him of a fair trial. And in this case my story was presented even four years before he was even arrested. So the judge -- [Rosalie] Abella --she goes even further and in her view there's no way that I should have to testify to reveal my sources in such a case.

CO: Marc-Yvan Cote who is at the centre of this story is the former provincial minister and Liberal organizer. And your investigation that has led to these allegations and this trial is part of the larger work that Enquete did to reveal corruption in Quebec and collusion between various high level sources. So what was the significance of the journalism you were doing that was actually being questioned in this court?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: Well back in 2010-2011-2012 we started breaking stories about illegal financing of the political parties in Quebec and a system inside some of the construction firms or engineer firms to make illegal donations to the parties. And what we revealed back then was that Marc-Yvan Cote, the former minister, was at the centre of one of these schemes. It kind of gave public consciousness of this thing but it took many years before the police started investigating and that there were actually some arrests. And we still don't have a sense of what precisely is the evidence in the criminal case against Marc-Yvan Cote and there's also former minister Nathalie Normandeau that's accused in the same case. So there's possibly no direct link between the story I broke in 2012 and the actual evidence against them in the criminal case. So that's why we thought it was really far-fetched to have me testify on my confidential sources.

CO: But it's not over yet, is it? I mean the court is now sending you back to trial to consider what the prosecution says is new evidence. So what does that tell you about how police and prosecutors are regarding this ruling?

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: I'm not very worried Carol. The public ministry says they have new evidence in an investigation about leaks in the media of various police documents and they said very little. But they said that if we wait to see what the outcome of this investigation, there will be little or no need to have me testify. So let's see about that. Nobody knows what's the new evidence. But I'm not very worried because there's going to be a steep hill with that decision of the Supreme Court today to prove that it's in a higher public interest to have me testify about my sources than not. So I'm not very worried.

CO: We will leave it there. And follow any other developments in this. Marie-Maude thank you so much for speaking with us.

MARIE-MAUDE DENIS: Thank you Carol.

CH: Marie-Maude Denis is the host of Radio Canada's flagship investigative program "Enquete." We reached her in Montreal. And you can find more on that story on our website:cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Old Mustang

Guest: Harry Phillips

CH: The reunion had been in the works for years -- but today, it finally happened. Harry Phillips got to introduce his granddaughter to an old friend: Mustang Serial Number One. In 1964 Mr. Phillips sold the first ever Ford Mustang while working at the George G.R. Parsons Ford dealership in St. John's, Newfoundland. 55 years later he was reunited with the special convertible which is now parked at the Henry Ford Museum. We reached Harry Phillips in Dearborn, Michigan.

CO: Harry I know it's been a long time since you saw Mustang Serial Number One. How did it look when you were reunited with your car this morning?

HARRY PHILLIPS: Oh I couldn't believe it. It was just the first time I've seen it in 55 years.

CO: Can you just describe the car for me?

HP: Well it was pretty well the same as a Mustang convertible, white and black interior, and it's just sitting there like a brand new car. Still got a Newfoundland license plate on the front and back.

CO: Do you remember the first time you ever saw that car -- back 55 years ago?

HP: Yes I can. Yeah. Back in them days it came in by train. And when it came off to our place and we got it cleaned up and everything -- and then we put it out on our parking lot for more people to see it than in the showroom because in the showroom you know people passing by couldn't see it. So we put it out in the line of cars -- and made sure there was nothing too close to it -- for people driving by which was a lot of traffic driving by.

CO: And how did people react when they saw the Mustang? The Ford Mustang.

HP: There was so much talk about it that it was common. And when it came of course, it was the only one we had. People were excited.

CO: And so people were coming in and then someone came in and made you an offer, right?

HP: Right on.

CO: What happened?

HP: Well he just saw it and he wanted it so no way two ways about it. Easiest sale I ever made.

CO: And who was he? Who was the guy who came in?

HP: He was Stanley Tucker his name was. And he was a pilot in EPA -- Eastern Provincial Airlines pilot -- from Gander which is a 250-300 miles from our dealership in the middle to Newfoundland. And he just wanted it. He wanted to take it right there and then.

CO: And why couldn't he?

HP: Well we had to have it there for opening day -- we needed a Mustang -- which was on the 17th of April. And this was somewhere around the 10th. And we couldn't give it to him. But we did agree to take a deposit on it. He didn't question anything about it -- the price or anything. He just wanted the car. And as a salesmen [chuckles] I was delighted.

CO: Now at what point did you realize -- did you find out -- that you weren't supposed to sell that car?

HP: No one had told us that we weren't allowed to sell it. No on. The only reason I can think of is every dealer had to have a car -- at least one -- by introduction day which was April 17th, 1964. And we were the furthest dealer away from the plant. So I'm assuming that they just took that out and sent it right to us.

CO: Okay. So the very first Ford Mustang ever made got shipped to St. John's Newfoundland and you sold it.

HP: Yeah. And we didn't have any repercussions from it at first. You know we were never told not to sell it. Probably a couple of months later they called us and said "Can you get the car back?" So I mean we couldn't get the car back. We told him to call the owner which they did and he wouldn't give it up.

CO: But why did they need the car back?

HP: Well apparently Ford keeps the first car of any new model. The first one produced they keep it. Now somehow or some reason this didn't happen and maybe they were in too much of a hurry to send it to make sure that everyone had one or maybe they didn't know that the car was going to sell like it did. I mean they just couldn't make them quick enough.

CO: So how did they get the car back from this pilot -- from Stanley Tucker?

HP: Well it took about a year and a half and they gave him a 66 model that was loaded -- and they even put a TV in it. They don't come with a TV of course. And even had to install. Now I imagine it wasn't very big but he apparently got the one millionth Mustang.

CO: But he had already put 10,000 miles on the first Mustang.

HP: There is still 10,000 on it now when we were in it. I was sitting in it this morning.

CO: So why did you want to reconnect with it?

HP: Back in St. John's there is a big Mustang group -- a group that are very very particular about their cars -- some won't even take them out in the rain. And they started this going. And then my granddaughter put it on Facebook "Send Harry to see Henry." And it just started rolling. Actually somebody down here paid for the trip -- paid for me and my granddaughter and she worked really hard on it.

CO: Harry it's great to talk to you and congratulations on being reunited with your car.

HP: Thank you very much for calling I really appreciate it. Thank you.

CH: That's Harry Phillips from St. John's, Newfoundland. The retired car salesman sold the world's first Ford Mustang more than five decades ago. And he was reunited with the convertible today in Dearborn, Michigan.

[Music]

Part 2: Why this Quebec teacher has joined a lawsuit against Quebec's religious symbols ban

Bill 21 lawsuit

Guest: Bouchera Chelbi

CH: Over the past few weeks, Quebec's controversial secularism law has taken effect and had major effects in schools across the province. Now, it's headed to civil court. Yesterday, a trio of teachers of different faiths launched a lawsuit against Bill-21 -- which bans some public sector employees from wearing religious symbols. The motion alleges that the law violates constitutional protections of gender equality and religious freedom. And that it exceeds provincial jurisdiction. The plaintiffs in the case include one Roman Catholic teacher and two Muslim teachers. Among them is Bouchera Chelbi, who wears the hijab. We reached Ms. Chelbi in Montreal.

CO: Bouchera what is this lawsuit that you have launched against Bill-21?

BOUCHERA CHELBI: Okay. In fact even though I'm grandfathered it still limits to me in my aspirations to be a principal. It limits me in my life because if I need to move on to another district or another town I won't be grandfathered anymore. It's very limiting me.

CO: When you say it's grandfathered -- what the law does is that teachers who are already in the system or anybody who's already employed is not supposed to be affected by this, it is supposed to be limits -- those who can enter a profession if they're wearing any symbol of religion. So you're saying it doesn't matter -- you're still affected, your career is still stymied by it.

BC: Yeah I'm still affected. I am grandfathered which means that I can still be a teacher but I can't be a principal. I can't move to another province. As long as I stick with the same school board I am still grandfathered. If I change school boards, if I change my aspirations, then I lose my privilege.

CO: It's interesting arguments that you're making in this statement of claim because you're saying that it's not just affecting you and your religion as a Muslim and you wear a hijab, it also affects you as a woman. In what way does it do so?

BC: Well they can say that this is a law about secularism. They can pretend that it's a law about religious symbols but at the end of the day we all know that the teaching profession, we are mostly women. And if you go to Montreal for example you'd see that there are a lot of women wearing hijab who are getting degrees as teachers. And you don't see that many Jewish people wearing Kippahs as teachers. You don't see that many Sikh women or men wearing a turban. Mostly it's Muslim women. So we can't help but feel like we are being targeted by the law.

CO: The other thing you say in the statement of claim which is interesting -- you say that the law it's supposed to be in an effort to support religious freedom. And yet you say that if this is a contradiction of the very premise of the law. Can you explain that?

BC: Yeah. When you talk about religious freedom it means that everybody is supposed to believe in whatever they want to believe, to be free to adopt the religion that they want, and to live it, and to express it. However when it comes to Muslim women, when you are denied the job because of the way you practice your religion it means that it's unfair to you. So I think it's a little bit paradoxical to me. You pretend to protect my religious freedoms but you are denying me the freedom of religion. I don't see it that way.

CO: And of course the government argues that the law is neutral, that it's not aimed at you, it's about keeping religion out of classrooms and is not specific about religion or gender. You contradict that.

BC: Well I am a human being so everything that impacts me cannot be neutral. We are doing our jobs neutrally with neutrality. We are not proselytizing. It is the way I decide to dress. But I do not use religion in my work.

CO: What's it been like for you at school since Bill-21 -- since you've gone back into the classroom this year?

BC: You're not unlucky enough because I have been working at the same school for like 4 years and I have wonderful colleagues who are very supportive to me. But I can tell you that it's not the same for many of my friends. Some of them are going through really hard times right now. Ever since the bill was passed the atmosphere has changed for them. One of my colleagues -- she's working at another school and she changed school just this year. She can hear comments. People look. She can feel like they're looking. They do not try to integrate her in their team so it is not really clear but it's more like a feeling. And she is getting more and more sick you know -- I'm afraid she's not going to stand it anymore.

CO: You know we're in the middle of a federal election campaign and so far we've heard none of the party leaders is taking any kind of strong stand against Bill-21. They say let the courts decide. What do you want to hear from those federal parties?

BC: You know what, I was talking to a colleague of mine and I said you know the best way for me not to be disappointed is not to put my expectations very high. And the candidates work for the law, they spoke their mind, they said that they were against it and all. But for the other ones it's like I feel -- personally -- that the matter is not important to them. I feel like they don't care about us. We are not like as important. Maybe they want to win more votes from those who are not sure. But to tell you the truth I'm not expecting them to take a stand and just say we are against the bill and we're going to help you challenge it or whatever. I don't feel like they are going to do it right now.

CO: Bouchera we'll let you go for now. We'll keep in touch with you and see how this develops. Thank you for speaking with us.

BC: Thank you.

CH: Bouchera Chelbi is a Montreal teacher who wears the hijab. She's one of three female teachers who have launched a lawsuit against Quebec's Bill-21. We reached Ms. Chelbi in Montreal. And we have more on this story at: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Hurricane Dorian

CH: As Hurricane Dorian roared across the Bahamas earlier this month, Krishaunda Cartwright and her family sheltered at her mother-in-law's house, inland. She says the hurricane stayed over them for two days. Ms. Cartwright lost half a dozen of her close friends. Now she is rebuilding her life after the hurricane destroyed her home on Grand Bahama. Last week, Ms. Cartwright brought her children to Nova Scotia -- where she used to live -- to stay with relatives. Now she's back on Grand Bahama. And yesterday she talked to the CBC's Sherri Borden Colley about how she's doing.

SOUNDCLIP

KRISHAUNDA CARTWRIGHT: I still have friends who...they're missing. So they have not been declared deceased at this time -- not at this time -- but they are still missing.

SHERI BORDEN COLLEY: I'm so sorry. How are you coping right now?

KRISHAUNDA CARTWRIGHT: I actually have a memorial for one of my friend's. Her and her husband perished. To be honest with you I'm not sure how I'm coping. I'm just waking up every day you know. I just thank God for the breath that I have in my body and you know for life and for him sparing my family and you know the friends that he has spared and I'm just focusing on restoring the island. It's hard. It's difficult. It's a scary situation to be in because of course I was left homeless. Honestly I don't even really have the time to sit and think about that because I actually work for the power company and we are key in restoring the island back to I guess whatever's left of it. So I am so busy managing other people and making sure that they are safe that I don't really have the time to reflect on what has happened to myself and my family.

SHERI BORDEN COLLEY: So how much damage was actually done to your home?

KRISHAUNDA CARTWRIGHT: Inside was gutted. So there was no wall. The frame -- you know you have the wood frame, but there were no walls. The furniture was ripped away. The salt water ate out a lot of the furniture so to this day I don't even know what half of the furniture is. When we walked in, I am looking at a completely different home. I was just shocked. I couldn't say anything. I just was walking through the home. I was videotaping. I was crying. Just trying to make sense of it all because you know your mind cannot fathom the fact that you have a washer and dryer sitting there on the outside of your home.

SHERI BORDEN COLLEY: How did you explain this -- what happened -- to your children?

KRISHAUNDA CARTWRIGHT: I actually didn't explain the full extent of it. I let them know that we lost our home. You know certain items -- teddy bear is valuable to them and I let them know that we don't have them anymore but Mommy and Daddy are going to work hard so that we can get them back for you. But I did not let them see the home. We did not take them to the home so that they could actually lay eyes on it. They have no idea what it looks like. I don't want to expose them to that. But for the most part I think the hardest thing for them is to understand that you are away from Mommy and Daddy and it's actually for the best for the time being.

CH: That was Krishaunda Cartwright speaking with the CBC yesterday about how her family was affected when Hurricane Dorian hit the Bahamas earlier this month.

[Music]

Afghan election

Guest: Samira Sayed-Rahman

CH: Tomorrow, Afghanistan will hold its fourth presidential election since 2004. And for many voters it's not a question of who to vote for but whether to vote at all. Tomorrow's vote comes amid concerns of fraud and corruption as well as escalating violence by the Taliban who have threatened to target polling stations. There are 15 candidates but it's largely presumed to be a contest between Afghanistan's chief executive Dr. Abdullah Abdullah -- and current president, Ashraf Ghani. Samira Sayed-Rahman is a dual Canadian and Afghan citizen, and a senior campaigner for Mr. Ghani. We reached her in Kabul.

CO: Ms. Sayed Rahman as you know Afghanistan is plagued with a lot of violence, there's corruption, warlords. Many people say it's not worth risking their lives to go out and vote. So why should anyone go out?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Well there were threats against the voter registration process. We saw over 9 million people registered to vote. There were threats against campaign events. We saw hundreds of thousands of people come out to campaign events for all candidates over the two month campaign period. In fact one of our rallies just last week was targeted by a Taliban attack where we lost several of our constituents in that attack and yet the event continued. I think Afghans have showed over the course of the last 19 years that while violence is a regular occurrence in our lives that they're also willing to proceed with their lives. They're not willing to stop for the sake of violence. They go out every day to buy food. They go out every day to go to work. They go out every day to go to schools. And I think the same will happen tomorrow where we'll see millions of Afghans come out tomorrow and cast their ballots to make a decision for their future.

CO: And you're mentioning -- on September 17th, 26 people died. And many people say they don't know if they go to work whether they're going to come home -- they're obliged to call their parents or their wives, husbands, all day long because you go out and you don't know if you're going to come back. That's the condition, isn't it?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Well that is the condition in most parts of the country. But I think the security situation has improved quite a bit over the course of the last 18 years.

CO: We've also seen in recent months an effort on the part of the United States and its Afghan envoy to broker some kind of a peace agreement with the Taliban. As you know Mr. Ghani was excluded from those negotiations. He wasn't even invited to sit at the table with them. And Taliban said if he had been they wouldn't have even talked. So what does that say to Afghans about his status, his credibility, internationally and with the United States?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Well if we look at the beginnings of this peace process or these negotiations that took place actually in fact it was President Ghani who initiated this back in 2017 by having a three day ceasefire agreement with the Taliban. And that was sort of the beginning of these talks that came about that the Americans were going to be sitting down with the Taliban, they'll be negotiating a sort of agreement. As we saw that agreement did not reach any sort of result. And most Afghans on the ground believe that the reason that was is that the Afghan [inaudible] was not a part of those agreements. You know the president's plan for peace is one where the Taliban sit with the Afghan government -- the legitimate holders of the states -- and broker an agreement where they can then become a part of this society.

CO: If that's the vision though, what happens to that plan if Donald Trump -- as he says he wants to do -- withdraws the troops from Afghanistan -- the 5400 American forces that may be sent home by early next year? How does Mr. Ghani proceed with the plan if he doesn't have that support from the United States?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Well the American troop numbers are still very unclear. You know one month we're hearing that the troops are going to be increased. Another month we're hearing that they're going to completely withdraw. Regardless, the Afghan National Forces have increased in quality over the course of the last few years. We saw a huge troop count back in 2014 and we're continuing to see very incredible strides in the Afghan national armed forces.

CO: You had voter turnout of 84 percent in 2004. People were so thrilled to be able to vote and we all remember that elation. In 2009, only about 39 percent voted. And in the last election 35 percent. What legitimacy does that give the final vote?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Well voter turnout has decreased over time. We have also seen fraud has decreased over time. We can't necessarily say that the voter turnout that was announced in 2004 was one that was legitimate. And we have to remember that Afghanistan's democracy is quite new. It restarted in 2002, right. So it's going to take time for Afghanistan to be able to reach a point where we have a fully fair and free elections. I mean most Western countries also have allegations of fraud in their electoral systems, right. But we've seen a continued decrease in fraud over the course of those several elections.

CO: And yet the Taliban is saying that if people go to the polls they take their lives in their hands. What does that do for people in regions where the Taliban is actually a very strong force?

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: And those same reasons it's a risk for many Afghans to go to school. It's a risk for many Afghans to go to work. It's a risk for many Afghans to go out and get their daily sustenance. And I think that -- like I said -- Afghans have taken on those risks, have stood in the face of the Taliban over the course of the last 18 years, and are continuing to do so. And we saw this again in the parliamentary elections. Near Taliban dominated areas we saw extreme amounts of voters coming out in those areas including a lot of women which was a very interesting figure for us. And I am hoping that we will see the same again tomorrow.

CO: All right we will be watching tomorrow. Ms. Sayed-Rahman thank you.

SAMIRA SAYED-RAHMAN: Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Samira Sayed-Rahman is a dual Canadian and Afghan citizen who is a senior campaigner for Ashraf Ghani. We reached her in Kabul.

[Music]

George The Goose

CH: At this point in the video game, your timing will have to be flawless and your concentration total. With trembling hands, you clutch your controller and approach the villain.

SOUNDCLIP

[Piano playing and animal sounds]

CH: You did it! You made your goose honk at the exact right moment and caused the groundskeeper to hammer his own thumb. Mission accomplished. This is just one of many tense moments in "Untitled Goose Game" released a week ago by the Australian company House House. The description reads, quote, "It's a lovely morning in the village, and you are a horrible goose." How horrible a goose are you? Well here are some of your goose goals: "Trap the shopkeeper in the garage." "Make the old man fall on his bum." "Make the groundskeeper wear his sun hat." Okay well the last one's just weird but still -- those all do paint a picture of a truly "horrible goose." Still, "Untitled Goose Game" is all the rage right now. It's getting great reviews and it's a best seller. But if you bought it, guess what? You're also buying into the same old tired stereotypes of geese: they're horrible, they honk at groundskeepers, they make old men fall on their bums. Now all those things are definitely true. But over the years As It Happens has repeatedly proven that geese are sometimes not the worst. Just for one example in January of 1991 Michael Enright spoke with Mary Ann Austin of Little Britain, Ontario. Ms. Austin had adopted a goose named George who was a real sweetheart and seemed to have an unreal sweetheart. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY ANN AUSTIN: He was given to me by a client in Pickering. Our client bought an Andalusian horse for us you know. And when we delivered Silly to her -- she asked me if I would take George because he didn't could get along with her dogs and she was worried about him. I said certainly. So George moved in. And around our farm here I find that he doesn't like the dogs and he doesn't like the other geese. And he was very very lonely and I think that's how he got to the point where he started talking to a garbage can.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Yeah. [Chuckles] We want to pursue that now. George didn't seem to get along with anybody but the garbage can. How did that all happen?

MARY ANN AUSTIN: I don't really know. He was awfully lonely. He lived in my husband's garage for a long time. And my husband you know has tools -- automotive tools -- and he was worried that George would do little things to his expensive tools so he moved George out. And then George was really lonely because he didn't have his garage anymore. I didn't realise he was talking to the garbage can until several months later it was summer and clients had come up to look at the horses. Every time we went by, George was yakking to the garbage can.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Well what do you mean he was talking to the garbage can? He was actually sitting there yakking at the thing or what?

MARY ANN AUSTIN: Oh yes -- well you know how geese extend their neck, well George stood in front of this garbage can, extended his neck, and talked.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: [Laughs] Is there anything special about the garbage can?

MARY ANN AUSTIN: Nothing special that I can think of. Always empty. He likes his garbage cans empty. If people walk by he makes it understood that that's his territory -- not to come near his garbage can. He seems very very protective of it.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: What else does he do? Does he fondle the garbage can or rub up against it?

MARY ANN AUSTIN: He does that too. To my knowledge he doesn't go into it. I was thinking that maybe he slept inside his garbage can at night, but no. He sleeps on the outside and guards it. I also have a feeling that George has a bit of visual impairment [laughter] because when I feed him I have to indicate with a little noise where the lunch is. So I can't really tell you what he thinks this garbage can is. Perhaps he visualizes it as another creature, another goose. I don't really know if George understand that he is a goose at all.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Oh you think he might have certain pretensions to being something other than a goose?

MARY ANN AUSTIN: Yeah it's my estimation he has a bad identity crisis. [Laughter]

CH: From our archives Mary Ann Austin speaking with Michael Enright about George the-garbage-can-loving goose in January of 1991.

[Music]

Part 3: France's #MeToo founder vows to fight back after being fined $29K for defamation

Sandra Muller defamation

Guest: Sandra Muller

CH: She sent out the tweet that kicked off France's Me Too movement. And now she's paying for it literally. In 2017 Sandra Muller tweeted out the hashtag -- Balance Ton Pork -- which roughly translates to "squeal on your pig." It was a call to women to share their stories of sexual harassment. And Ms. Muller shared her own story -- of a male executive she says made advances and sexually explicit comments to her. That man -- Eric Brion -- sued. And this week Ms. Muller lost her case. She's been fined nearly 30,000 dollars and ordered to delete her tweets. We reached Sandra Muller in Paris. And a warning: this interview contains some graphic language.

CO: Ms. Muller what do you make of this decision from the judge that rules against you?

SANDRA MULLER: It was really difficult for me. Honestly I wasn't shocked but I wanted to anticipate in case because we never know, you know? It's justice. It's a trial. We never know. So all my friends they were like 'Don't worry. You're going to win. You're going to win.' And I thought maybe it won't.

CO: Let's people know what the case was because you had tweeted about this man -- Mr. Brion -- what did you tweet about? What did you say that he had done?

SM: Well honestly I think you're going to cut the thing because there is bad word so he told me, You are a brunette, you are my type of woman, you are big breasts, and I'm going to have to make you come all night. Okay. So I was at this cocktail [party] -- it was a professional event. So I didn't say anything -- I just called a friend but my friend does not remember. And I don't know maybe like 6 years later this statement stayed in my mind. And I just started to publish it because all the women they started to speak out. It was at this time all the actresses in October of 2017...

CO: It's the beginning of what's called the "Me Too" movement. And you decided it was time to say what had happened to you at this cocktail party.

SM: The Me Too movement came with the same message and my message was if you experienced harassment at workplace you can answer to me.

CO: Okay so Mr. Brion admitted that he made these remarks to you but he said that it wasn't harassment. And the judge has now agreed with him.

SM: Right. Okay so let's be clear I'm living in USA and I think you know harassment and harcelement -- in French it's not exactly the same term -- so I translated the term -- the word -- 'harassment' which is a large [word] you know it's really large. And in French 'harcelement' is really really precise. So the harassment in French it can be because of the reputation because of difficulties you're facing -- difficult situation multiple time or it can be for pressure -- you feel so pressured that you don't feel good. And the judge decided that I didn't go to the police station or something so she decided that I did not have any pressure or something -- it's my personal feeling.

CO: Okay so the view of the judge was that because you hadn't done anything about it -- you didn't complain, you didn't go to the police -- that you really weren't -- harcelement as you point out it's a different word -- but you weren't harassed because of that, is that what she was saying?

SM: Absolutely. Yeah that's what she said.

CO: I just want to ask you about Eric Brion and his case against you. His lawyer defended Mr. Brion and said that he had a right to flirt. What do you make of that argument?

SM: Oh I think I'm too much American. I don't remember that seduction in France it was like "I'm going to make you come." I'm sorry but it's not seduction. I like seduction. We can go in the streets -- if some guy comment they want to speak with us and they are polite and nice with us we can speak with them. If Mr. Brion -- honestly if he had told me you have beautiful hair, beautiful eyes, I would like to go with you to the...watch a movie, obviously this suit would not have existed at all.

CO: What does it say to you about the attitude toward these kinds of encounters in France? You live in the United States. Is it different? Do you feel it's different in France -- the attitude toward these kinds of remarks being made to women? If it's said that that's just flirtation, how different is that from what you encounter legally in the United States?

SM: In France you know when they want to joke about the United States they say you know what don't go in the same elevator because a girl -- she can complain against you for harassment. It's the joke in France. You see that? So there is no limit between seduction, flirting, and harassment. So I tried to put a limit for people to understand how I feel about that but nobody cares. It's not true. It's not nobody cares. I have a lot of supporters here. A lot of women, a lot of men. And believe me the French people are great and they are like so angry against this decision.

CO: What has this judgment meant for the many women who follow you and your movement of "Balance Ton Pork?" What are they saying? What has been the reaction to this decision?

SM: You know I was afraid that victims will lose hope. I was afraid that victims maybe wouldn't want to speak out again. I was afraid of that. And you know what? It's exactly the opposite. I just realized today that everybody is so angry. People are like 'we have to fight.' You know what? It's a revolution. But I did not expect that. And I'm scared that they want that victim just to stay quiet. The message is clear. It's like just stay quiet, shut up, and we don't want to hear your voice. So I just hope that there is no like victims in their house. I hope there is no victim in the house like scared to speak out but I'm afraid it happens. You know I'm very concerned. I'm very worried for the victims. And I tell them you have to keep going, speak out, don't be afraid, don't be scared. You know they wanted to make me an example. And they will make me a martyr. So I think it's that. You know I think the decision is not good at all. But in fact you have to know that I think Brion the first time he wanted something like 135,000 -- and finally he will get 20,000. So I'm not sure that he won.

CO: All right we will leave it there. Ms. Muller thank you for speaking with us tonight.

SM: Thank you.

CH: Sandra Muller is a journalist and the woman credited with starting France's Me Too movement. She lost a defamation case this week but is going to appeal the decision. We reached her in Paris. And we have more on Ms. Muller's story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Shuping Wang

CH: Dr. Shuping Wang lived an incredible life -- one with enough drama to make a play. In fact a show based on her time exposing the HIV and hepatitis epidemics in central China in the 1990s just debuted at a London theater. Dr. Wang was at the opening last week. Then a few days ago she died suddenly while hiking near her home in Utah. She was 59. After Dr. Wang spoke out about the practices at for-profit blood clinics in Hunan province she was vilified and her clinic was attacked. The ordeal eventually led to her divorce and her decision to move abroad. The play is called "The King of Hell's Palace." It was written by the daughter of a friend Doctor Wang made at the U.S. embassy in Beijing -- during her time as a whistleblower. Here are playwright Frances Ya-Chu Cowhig and Shuping Wang speaking to the BBC last Thursday.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCES YA-CHU COWHIG: I first met Shuping in Beijing when I was 17-years-old at a hotpot restaurant. And that was basically 20 years ago. And so as long as I've known her I've known of her story. Shuping and my father worked together when my father was reporting on public health and AIDS for the U.S. embassy in Beijing. And so through my father I knew that Shuping is considered a public health hero among a lot of scientists and health workers in Beijing and China as a whole and seen as a kind of Joan of Arc figure. And so this has always been in the back of my head that this would make a very compelling play.

REPORTER: Shuping it's been reported that the Chinese government is pressing you to stop the play being performed. Why would they do that?

SHUPING WANG: Because they think the show can damage their reputation basically.

REPORTER: And how were they trying to put the pressure on?

SHUPING WANG: My relative called me -- they said "Oh I got a phone call from China State Security Department." The officer went to there to ask a lot questions and basically they want to stop the show.

REPORTER: Frances, why was the Chinese government so determined to shut Shuping up?

FRANCES YA-CHU COWHIG: It's not just Shuping -- it's also many AIDS activists. Shuping is just one of many health workers, activists, who are speaking up about AIDS.

SHUPING WANG: Yeah I think basically they worry about it -- [because] one is power and second is money. They lost money if we reported this.

REPORTER: So what happened to you subsequently because you're not in China anymore, are you?

SHUPING WANG: I actually when I was in China when it happened I lost my job. I lost my marriage. My husband was very stressed everyday. They do not allow him to do his job easily. And so finally I felt I want to have a job. I want to work. I do not want to stay home. So that is why I feel I have to leave for another country.

CH: Dr. Shuping Wang and playwright Frances Ya-Chu Cowhig speaking on the BBC's "Woman's Hour" last week. Dr. Wang died earlier this week. She was 59.

[Music]

Coltrane album

Guest: Frederic Savard

CH: In 1964, when Quebec filmmakers Gilles Groulx was working on his film "Le chat dans le sac" a jazz musician whose name you will definitely recognize agreed to record music for it. Here's what the opening scene sounded like as the main characters introduced themselves directly to camera.

SOUNDCLIP

[Jazz music playing and people talking]

CH: John Coltrane playing a song called "Naima." The saxophonist recorded that and several other tracks for Mr. Groulx's film in New Jersey in 1964. Only 10 minutes of what was recorded would end up in "Le chat dans le sac." But now you can hear much more. With help from the National Film Board a new John Coltrane album called "Blue World" was released today. Frederic Savard has been working on this project for the NFB for years. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Frederic where has this Coltrane recording been for all these years?

FREDERIC SAVARD: Well it's been kind of hidden in plain sight. Essentially it's been at the sound board since 1964. Essentially Gilles Groulx was able to get in touch with Coltrane and to convince him to score his film. He went down to New Jersey to attend the recording session and then left with the only master tape known in existence. So he came back to Montreal, edited the music into his film, and then the master tape including the entire session went back into the NFB archive and was there essentially collecting dust since 1964.

CO: And how was it finally discovered?

FS: It was discovered in the early 2000s by someone who used to work at the National Film Board. His name is Carol Faucher. He was in charge of what was called that collection memoir which was essentially this collection that would feature prominent filmmakers from the Film Board from the 60s and 70s mostly from the French production. And one of the first release from that collection was a series of Gilles Groulx's work -- essentially every film that he had directed for the Film Board. So while Mr. Faucher was doing research for this project he went into a deep dive into the NFB archive and was doing extensive research and he found this master tape under the working title of the film. The film is known "Le chat dans le sac" or the English version being "The cat in the bag." But when Groulx started working on this film the working title was "Chronicle of a breakup" or "Chronique d'une rupture." So some of the documents pertaining to this production including the master tapes from the Coltrane session was catalogued under that working title. So that's why it was a bit in limbo for all these years. But Carol found it in the early 2000. And we realized at that point that the music featured in the film wasn't only licensed music pre-existing recordings that were license for the soundtrack but exclusive new recordings that were produced at the request of Gilles Groulx -- and it was a pretty important discovery at that time.

CO: You have to wonder what's hidden in the archives of the National Film Board...that's is an extraordinary discovery.

FS: It's an extraordinary discovery. I'm a record collector myself and it's always a fantasy to come across something that's rare or something that's limited or a limited edition or a private press. But in this case finding the unique copy of an unreleased Coltrane studio session master tape it's something that's almost out of this world essentially.

CO: It's beautiful. It's moody. The bit we heard was "Naima" which is something he had recorded elsewhere but it works with the opening scenes of this Gilles Groulx film "Le chat dans le sac" "The cat in the bag." Maybe tell people what is that film about?

FS: The film is quite complex. Essentially it documents the last days of a relationship -- of a romance -- between two young Montrealers. Barbara Ulrich who's the main protagonist who goes under the name Barba in the film who is an Anglophone Jewish Montreal woman. And Claude who is a French Canadian aspiring journalist. So essentially the film chronicles the last days of their relationship, the growing distance between them. But it's also -- I think for Gilles it was also essentially a way to address some of the Quebec politics of the 60s and some of the concerns of the French Canadians at that time. Of course it's 64 so we're ahead of what was going to be the Quiet Revolution. So the film does talk a lot about questions of identity. But also I feel it's a film that has aged extremely well talking about linguistic politics, talking about gender politics. So it's quite a complex film. Essentially it's a fiction film. It was slightly inspired by the French New Wave. A lot of the film was shot with non-professional actors, a lot of the dialogue was completely improvised as well on the spot. So it's bit of a romance film but also it's a very political film.

CO: And it's charming but has this depth because of the -- as he describes it, 'one man's view of the anxiety of French Canadian youth' -- which is the opening part. But how did Gilles Groulx go about getting John Coltrane to record the soundtrack for this film?

FS: This is a bit of a mystery. It remains something that's a bit of a myth. Essentially what we know is that before shooting "Le chat dans le sac" Groulx made another film called "Voir Miami" or "To see Miami" which he shot in Miami, Florida. And during the shoot of this film -- while he was making this film -- he came across a woman in Miami who was prominently featured in the film. She's a bit of a muse figure throughout this documentary. And this woman was one of Jimmy Garrison's friend. And Jimmy Garrison being the bassit in the Coltrane quartet. So through that friendship and through that relationship, Groulx was able to get in touch with Coltrane's immediate circle. He got in touch with Jimmy Garrison and he asked him if he would agree to put him in touch with Coltrane and that's how the connection was made. We don't know very much about this collaboration. Unfortunately there's no documentation of it. There's no correspondence between the two men. We don't have any footage. We don't have any photos. But we know for a fact that the session did take place. And as to why Coltrane agreed to record the soundtrack there's many possibilities to envision. First of all, Jazz was being used more and more for film soundtrack. For instance Miles Davis had recorded a soundtrack for Louis Malle's film. [Charles] Mingus had recorded a soundtrack for John Cassavetes film. So it's quite possible that Coltrane wanted to be part of this movement. So that's one possibility. We also know that Coltrane at that time -- his music was becoming a bit more politicized as well. He'd recorded a song called "Liberia" recorded a song called "Africa." So it's possible that the politics discussed in the film were appealing to Coltrane. Of course we don't have any confirmation of that but it would be quite possible that there is a connection there. For instance throughout the film there's a reference to American writer James Baldwin. There's also a reference to Frantz Fanon. So it's possible that Gilles Groulx politics appealed to Coltrane's politics as well. Something -- as I said -- we cannot confirm but it would explain why Coltrane agreed to score a film by essentially an unknown French Canadian director at that time.

CO: Now also we know that well basically Jazz is the soundtrack of Montreal. It has always been, but especially in the 1960s and the same is true of Paris. So it just fits so perfectly with this movie. But 1964 we're talking about, what was going on in John Coltrane's own life at that time?

FS: Well these recordings were made right before Coltrane recorded one of his masterpiece called "A Love Supreme" and right before the session for the soundtrack he'd recorded "Crescent" as well. So during that period what is now known as the classic quartet which is the band that we can hear on the soundtrack featuring Jimmy Garrison on bass, McCoy Tyner on piano, and Elvin Jones on the drums were a bit at their peak. So 1964 was a very special era. And what's interesting about these recordings too is that even though Coltrane re-recorded some existing compositions that he had previously released his sound was evolving so quickly at that time that the recordings featured in the film for instance "Naima" that we heard and that we've just discussed, the version that's featured in the film and on the record that's coming out are significantly different than the version that was previously released in 1959 for the record Giant Steps.

CO: So Naima is on this recording -- this album now that you're going to put out. What else is on it?

FS: While essentially there's eight tracks of five different compositions by John Coltrane. For instance for Naima there were two takes and the record label has decided to include every different take that were recorded for the session. So we can hear other tracks such as "Village Blues" "Training In" "Blue World" "Naima."

CO: Is there anything that's not been heard before -- anything that is an original cut from Coltrane?

FS: No -- these are all previously existing compositions. But as I said the versions are so different than what was previously released that it remains extremely interesting to be heard.

CO: Because he was always interpreting and reinterpreting his music, wasn't he? I mean he even talks about that -- just how fluid this was and how he was experimenting with sound. So what we can hear on this is -- this is quite unusual, isn't it, to have this completely different take in subtle ways of what he's already recorded.

FS: Absolutely. Because this is something he would normally do during live sessions or during concerts so he would freely reinterpret composition from his catalog. So this was not something unusual for Coltrane this is something that he would do extremely frequently and these songs were in constant evolution and they were constantly growing and changing. But the fact that he went back to the studio to rerecord this material is something quite unusual and something that he would rarely do. We should also mention the fact that this recording took place at Rudy Van Gelder's studio in New Jersey. And Rudy Van Gelder is one of the most prominent Jazz producer of the 60s and 70s recording for Impulse records but also for another prominent label called Blue Note. So to have studio versions of these songs five or six years after they were previously recorded is something quite precious and quite unusual.

CO: What's it like for you to be the person who's putting all this together?

FS: I mean it's a bit surreal to be quite honest. I'm surprised that no one else was able to achieve what I've achieved in the last few years that is to make these recordings available to the general public. It's something that I was very passionate about. A lot of people knew about these recordings especially in Quebec. In French circles and music and film circles it was not really a secret. But to me it seemed a bit odd and a bit strange that this was only known in Quebec -- Coltrane being such a pillar of jazz music. And it's something that I wanted to see corrected. Essentially I wanted these recordings to be recognized and the has history and I wanted the recordings to be recognized in music history as well.

CO: It also brings Gilles Groulx back to the surface too, doesn't it? For people who don't know his work and especially "Le chat dans le sac" -- these are works that have not been seen in years and years.

FS: Absolutely. And for instance as well we know that there is a new found interest for English speaking audiences so the NFB recently redid some of the subtitles. And for instance I was just back from New York City where the film was screened at the Lincoln Center and we had quite a good turnout and it was very exciting to see an American audience react to this film and to see this newfound interest towards this unknown and underrated film from 64.

CO: We played a bit of Naima at the top of this interview. As we say goodbye to you, what should we play for our listeners?

FS: I think Blue World would be an interesting track to just end the conversation since it is the title track of the record. But also when it was previously recorded by Coltrane it was recorded under the title "Out Of This World." So Coltrane rerecorded with this new band and changed some of the chord arrangements so it's very different from what we had heard. So I think Blue World speaks to the unique aspect of this record and of these recordings.

CO: Well Frederic thank you for bringing this film back to light and this music.

FS: Well thank you for your time. It was a pleasure.

CH: That was Frederic Savard in Toronto. He works with the National Film Board and he's the director of archival research for the new John Coltrane album "Blue World." It was released today by Impulse and Universal Music. To see some archival photographs visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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September 27, 2019 Episode Transcript

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