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The Current Transcript for August 13, 2019

Host: Duncan McCue

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Songs from protests in Hong Kong.

DUNCAN MCCUE: They chanted stand with Hong Kong, fight for freedom, thousands of pro-democracy protesters as they forced the cancellation of flights in one of Asia's busiest airports yesterday and again today following violent clashes with police. With the mass demonstrations entering their tenth week, we'll begin by exploring the Canadian connections to Hong Kong's civil unrest. Then.

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VOICE: Hopefully this win can give inspiration to many other Canadians and young athletes because if I can do it, if Serena can do it, anyone can do it, if you just believe in yourself.

DM: Bianca Andreescu first picked up a tennis racket when she was 7-years-old in Romania and now the 19-year-old from Mississauga, Ontario is the toast of women's pro tennis after becoming the first Canadian to win the Rogers Cup in 50 years. We'll find out what her big victory means for Canadian tennis in half an hour. Also.

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VOICE: This is my life, my blood, my family and you know this paternalistic government has been hiding the truth for me for decades.

DM: We pick up where we left off with the CBC original podcast, Finding Cleo. About a Cree family's search for their sister lost in the Sixties Scoop, presumed murdered. In today's episode, host Connie Walker gets a tip that could help narrow the search for Cleo. That's in about 45 minutes. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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Chinese intervention in Hong Kong protests could change the region 'as we know it': former diplomat

Guest: Sophia Yan, Martin Seto, Gordon Houlden

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VOICE 1: The central government is still confident that I myself as a government of the Hong Kong as they are, together with the police force that we are still capable of resolving this crisis.

VOICE 2: Do you have any autonomy or not to withdraw the extradition bill please.

VOICE 1: The second point I want to make.

VOICE 2: Could you answer that specific question.

VOICE 1: In response to the various demands that we have heard, we have considered all factors and came up with a response that we have rehearsed time and again over the last two months.

VOICE 2: You have not answered the question, you've evaded the question. Do you have the autonomy to withdraw the bill or not? Or does Beijing need to give approval on that.

VOICE 1: I've alread answered the question.

DM: Hong Kong Chief Exectuve Carrie Lam faced fierce questioning from reporters at a news conference today, but once again appealed for calm instead of making concessions to protesters. The pro-democracy protests saw thousands of demonstrators camped out at Hong Kong's International Airport, one of the world's busiest, were designed to get a reaction and they sure did. Yesterday airport authorities cancelled all flights costing an estimated tens of millions of dollars. Today some planes were able to take off amid a backlog, but by evening Hong Kong time, all departing flights were cancelled again. Chinese officials in Beijing said the protests were starting to look like "terrorism" and fears of a larger response from the mainland are growing. The escalation comes after 10 weeks of tensions in Hong Kong that began with protesters opposition to a proposed extradition bill. It's quickly snowballed into broader demands for democratic reform and investigations into police brutality. Officers continue to use tear gas, rubber bullets and mass arrests to clamp down on the demonstrations. Denise Ho is a Canadian Hong Kong pro-democracy activist who has been taking part in the protests.

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VOICE: The way that government and also the police force have been responding or not responding to the people has been enraging everyone and that was why we have resorted to come to the airport because this is the only way that we could peacefully protest without being beaten up for no reason.

DM: Sophia Yan has been covering this story. She's the China correspondent for The Telegraph. She's in Hong Kong. Hello.

SOPHIA YAN: Hey there, Duncan. How's it going?

DM: It's going well. How was Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam looking at today's news conference?

SOPHIA YAN: Well you know every time she's come out to speak publicly since these demonstrations have started, it's been you know months now, we're going to the third month. Every time she comes up to the public stage, she looks more and more nervous, sometimes on verge of tears. That's what it looks like and it's certainly not a surprise. This is a huge, huge challenge to the authority of Hong Kong, to Beijing, definitely the biggest popular challenge that China's Communist Party leader Xi Jinping has faced since he took the helm.

DM: Reporters repeatedly asking her if she had the ability to take away the extradition bill. What message did she managed to send?

SOPHIA YAN: Well she's continued to send the exact same message that she has for weeks, which is that the government, that Hong Kong authorities will not back down. That they have confidence in the police to continue to manage the situation. Beijing, the central government, has all said the same thing and so this is not something that protesters want to hear. They want to feel like the government is listening to their demands, which have grown over the last few weeks and they're really upset and they continue to become more and more angry as police violence has escalated. Again today you saw it hundreds of demonstrators again go to the airport for the fifth day in a row causing disruptions, lots of flight cancellations for the second day in a row ,even just hours after Carrie Lam made that appeal.

DM: Yesterday the reports, signs that the Beijing could be preparing to deploy troops in Hong Kong. What can you tell us about that?

SOPHIA YAN: There has been a lot more videos circulating on social media. There's a lot from state media, official state media, which generally tells the public of the government official line, what they're thinking. Often communist party mouthpieces in these papers like China Daily or Global Times, they are sanctioned by the government. So what these put out definitely indicates it's sending a warning to protesters that increased force is on the table and the rhetoric from Beijing you've seen continue to grow. At first, when the protests kicked off early June, Chinese state media, there was no mention of it. The government in Beijing said nothing. In fact censors were working overtime to make sure that mentioned in coverage and foreign media didn't make it into mainland China. These days it's a really different story. They continue to show images of Hong Kong covered in tear gas and the officials from Beijing have condemned the protesters for disrupting the city and for hurting the economy and certainly these scenes of violence they are happening, but state media they haven't necessarily explained the root cause of why protesters are so angry.

DM: You mentioned the economy is getting hit here. What kind of economic psychological toll have these past 10 weeks had on the city, especially that the airport closures?

SOPHIA YAN: We have a lot of passengers who are coming through. A lot of them have some sense of what's going on and it's certainly disrupting life here for residents. You can go into some of the busiest neighbourhoods in Hong Kong and it's empty. You know ones that normally will be filled with people going to bars and restaurants. The seats are empty, they're still open, but it's definitely not as vibrant as before and in terms of people coming through there's certainly a trepidation about what might happen to your travel plans.

DM: So when it comes to the demonstrations they are continuing. What are young protesters in particular demanding now? It seems to have evolved over time.

SOPHIA YAN: Yeah so protesters did first come out to demand a controversial extradition proposal be scrapped. This would have sent suspects here in Hong Kong to face trial in mainland China where court no Communist Party influence over the court leads to a ninety nine point nine percent conviction rate. There was a lot of worry that people who were being sent that way would be facing unfair trial. Carrie Lam the chief executive did suspend the proposal but it's not a formal withdrawal. The protesters have continued to demand for that to happen. The concern is that without a formal cancelling of this proposal city authorities could then cable and traffic quickly. Now they've expanded its mandate to call for broader political changes. Essentially an entire change of how things are done here including direct leadership elections. This is something of a Beijing perspective and the central government perspective something that's not going to happen.

DM: Sophia Yan, thank you very much for filling us in on the latest.

SOPHIA YAN: Thank you.

DM: Sophia Yang is the China correspondent for The Telegraph. She was in Hong Kong. Now many Canadians of Hong Kong descent are anxiously watching as the violence in the territory worsens. Some of them are trying to help from here. Martin Seto is a member of Friends of Hong Kong Calgary. He's in Calgary today. Hello.

MARTIN SETO: Hi Duncan. How are you?

DM: I'm doing well. You grew up in Hong Kong. What are you feeling as you're seeing the tensions there escalate?

MARTIN SETO: Actually I was a kind of rage and very anxious and like a lot of immigrants from Hong Kong and they're really upset about the situation because that was not the Hong Kong we used to know.

DM: What upsets you most?

MARTIN SETO: Basically is the police brutality and they use extensive force to try to control the peaceful protester. And a lot of them are really young people you know. The youngest was 13 that got arrested.

DM: What kind of actions have you been taking from Calgary to to support protesters in Hong Kong?

MARTIN SETO: We did hosted three rallies in Calgary. Actually it's a march and to show that like we are not really happy about the whole situation. And I have some associate lining up with some legal aid's NGOs in Hong Kong and also like the first aid unit in Hong Kong. And a lot of people I know in Canada and trying to shipping like tear gas masks and also filter because they need those equipments for protesting because they shoot over a thousand tear gas bombs in likelast two months.

DM: You've also been raising money to place ads in major newspapers all around the world. Why are you doing that?

MARTIN SETO: Yes. I think like it's international-wise they did two campaign. We want to aware the international people that the situation in Hong Kong has not only happened because the Hong Kong government is not careful. It's because the Chinese government try to influence other country and also they always breach their treaties. And they did breatch the sino declaration. They signed on 1985 I believe.

DM: We did request an interview with the Chinese embassy in Canada. They sent us a statement instead. Let me read part of it to you. "Hong Kong's radical protesters repeatedly attacking police officers with extremely dangerous tools, including petrol bombs in the past few days have begun to show 'sign of terrorism.' The radicals under the pretext of 'demand for democracy' have maliciously plotted to paralyze the governance of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and threaten the bottom line of one country, two systems for their own political gains." Martin Seto, what do you think when you hear that?

MARTIN SETO: You know what I believe those guys living in Stone age. They don't know that the information out there is like open on Internet. And their propaganda is look like amateur. And no protestor have attacked anybody except the police. They've beem really like brutal to all the peaceful protester and also like they shouldn't even talk about one country, two system. They are the one breaching it all the time.

DM: You are supportive of the actions of the protesters. I wonder is the Hong Kong Canadian community as a whole united over this and have there been tensions with mainland Chinese Canadians?

MARTIN SETO: Yes there is some tension no doubt. There are some tensions and unfortunately we are seeing different value. Let's put this way, as a Hong Kong Canadian I admit you know I don't agree with the policy, let's put it this way. And we are living a democracy world all the time and they are not. So they have a different vision. On the other hand again too, for Hong Kong immigrants, I find it's more unified under these three, I would say two months and majority of Hong Kong immigrants they support the protestors in Hong Kong, I would say.

DM: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke yesterday about the need to de-escalate the tensions in Hong Kong. What do you want to hear from the Canadian government in the coming days perhaps weeks?

MARTIN SETO: Actually we do expect Mr. Trudeau be a more I wouldn't say aggressive, but more firm on this situation . For instance we have proposed and saying that like any mutual treaties Canadian signed with Hong Kong government should be putting a cross on human rights to evaluate I mean their human rights situation.

DM: Martin Seto, thank you very much for for sharing your thoughts on this today.

MARTIN SETO: Thank you.

DM: Martin Seto is with Friends of Hong Kong Calgary. We reached him in Calgary. Gordon Houlden is director of the China Institute and a professor of political science at the University of Alberta. He's a former Canadian diplomat who spent 22 years working on China affairs and was posted twice to Hong Kong. He joins me today from Edmonton.

GORDON HOULDEN: Hello. Good morning.

DM: We just heard from Martin Seto that there are Canadians who are helping out the protests by sending legal aid, first aid, that kind of thing. What do you think of what you just heard from Martin Seto?

GORDON HOULDEN: Well of course the Canadians of Hong Kong origin are free to take whatever stance they wish and to provide assistance to the demonstrators, but I think this is something that's going to be decided on the ground in Hong Kong and most importantly in the Communist Party and headquarters in Beijing. These are there are the forces in motion that I fear could put at risk the Hong Kong as we know it, particularly if Beijing chooses to use force in intervening.

DM: There was video yesterday of a large Chinese military convoy that was massing near Shenzen, which which borders on Hong Kong. What should people read into that Gordon Houlden?

GORDON HOULDEN: I think it's a clear warning. There is a appeal a military garrison already in Hong Kong, but it's really outside of Hong Kong and Shenzhen and problems of Guangdong that there are the forces that would be necessary to subdue Hong Kong and to end any insurrection or demonstrations they would say interaction perhaps. That is a clear warning. And the fact that these images are being shown on Chinese media within China is also I think preparing the Chinese people perhaps for a possible intervention. I don't think the decision has been taken. I don't think that Beijing wants to do that. They'd like to see the Hong Kong government maintain order themselves using their own resources, but if push comes to shove, if they sense that things are spiralling out of their control, out of control of the Hong Kong government, I think intervention is is on the table.

DM: There certainly seems to be an escalation of the rhetoric though coming from Beijing. I mean that's got many observers who who are of course raising the spectre of a Tiananmen style crackdown and that could be imminent. Is that possible?

GORDON HOULDEN: It's possible. Now one thing I would note is that China has learned a lot since Tiananmen. At that time they really didn't have the anti riot squad the water cannons the shields and batons and all of that I think if they were to intervene the effort would be to his non-lethal force as opposed to what was happened in tandem and who had tanks and machine guns and that sort of thing. That having that said it would be a terrible mess it would damage China's reputation greatly and the international community. And it would really devastate Hong Kong's position as a premier economic centre and that would have effects for the global economy much in play here far beyond the domestic tranquillity of Hong Kong.

DM: What would its signal for Hong Kong if the Chinese People's Liberation Army was to step in?

GORDON HOULDEN: I think it would really destroy the concept of one country, two systems, if you had that sort of intervention. I suppose it's possible after a few weeks or months of suppression of demonstrations that it could be returned to more or less normality but that would always hang there as a reminder or reality that Hong Kong really didn't have the autonomy that had been promised that intervention from outside was something that could occur and perhaps it would occur occur again. It would change the character of Hong Kong.

DM: There are a lot of Canadian businesses, which do business in Hong Kong. How should they be viewing the events as they're unfolding right now?

GORDON HOULDEN: Well they will be concerned and of course the airport is the number one cargo airport on Earth, number eight in terms of passenger volume. Just the fact that normal moving in and out of Hong Kong is disrupted is already a factor for business. If things were effected his tenure at the airport basically not functioning properly that would begin to bring into question the desirability of Hong Kong as a place to do business and that would be a terrible loss, not just for Hong Kong itself. We have to remember we have 350,000 citizens living there and their livelihood largely depends on international trade and finance and business.

DM: You were a diplomat in China for an awfully long time. How should Canada be responding to this situation do you think?

GORDON HOULDEN: Well I think the Prime Minister said yesterday I have no quibble with that in effect was a warning that if China intervenes, should not intervene and there would be consequences. But I think there's a danger that countries outside of China and overestimate their hand that if we encourage the demonstrators, particularly using methods that can shade into violence, that somehow we're going to be there to save them. And that won't be the case. There's no possibility of outside intervention. They're on their own and there is that there is a very real risk. We are more exposed than any country, except China itself, in what's happening. There's such a large number of citizens and such a large number of Canadians of Hong Kong origin. We are uniquely involved, but we are largely powerless to change the course of events on the ground in Hong Kong.

DM: And briefly, Gordon Houlden what are you looking for next as this unfolds?

GORDON HOULDEN: I think what will be crucial the whether or not the demonstrations can maintain a broad degree of public support. We saw a couple months ago when the demonstrations against the extradition treaty got underway hundreds of thousands of people in the street. Now we're dealing with much smaller numbers of demonstrators presumably still with quite a large degree of public support. What the Hong Kong government and Beijing will be watching does that as the disruptions continue. Does that public support begin to waver and are the demonstrators more isolated that might be of a position then where they could deal more decisively with them. Conversely if the support of the public is maintained or grows that is a different situation but also one which could then bring direct intervention from Beijing. So either way we're in perilous times for Hong Kong, which is a place that really is normally concentrated on business, not politics.

DM: Thank you for your analysis on this.

GORDON HOULDEN: Thank you.

DM: Gordon Houlden is a former Canadian diplomat and director of the China Institute at the University of Alberta. We reached him in Edmonton. CBC News is next and then is it a tennis renaissance.

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VOICE: You know I have friends from around the world that will call and say what's in the water that you have the best three teenagers in the world?

DM: Spoiler alert: it's probably not in the water, but we'll talk about what is going on in Canadian tennis and how Bianca Andreescu's big Roger's Cup win might be a sign of more victories to come. And we'll continue to play the best of CBC podcasts with Finding Cleo. I'm Duncan McCue. You're listening to The Current.

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Andreescu’s victory not a surprise and it bodes well for the future of Canadian tennis, says former number one

Guest: Patricia Hy

DM: Hi. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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DM: Still to come, Episode 2 of the CBC original podcast, Finding Cleo. About a family's search for a Cree girl taken in the Sixties Scoop. Today Cleo's sister gets some confusing information about where her sister might have ended up. But first, we had to centre court.

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VOICE: It's really hard to describe a feeling like this. I mean playing in front of my home crowd and just being able to win at home. I've dedicated so much hard work and sweat on that centre court, so being able to actually take the title this week is truly incredible.

DM: Bianca Andreescu still digesting her huge win at the Rogers Cup this past weekend. She's the first Canadian woman to win that title in 50 years. Less than 20 minutes into the game, her opponents Serena Williams withdrew due to injury. Here's Bianca Andreescu trying to put that moment into words to the National's Adrienne Arsenault.

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VOICE: At that moment I did realize that I just won the Rogers Cup, but it's not the way I expected it to be like. And I don't know my instinct just wanted me to go give her the biggest hug possible because I felt for her so much. I told her that she's a beast and that she's going to bounce back really quick. She is a champion.

DM: What a hug that was. My next guest knows well what both Bianca and rescue and Serena Williams were experiencing out on the court this weekend. For a number of years in the 1990s Patricia Hy was ranked number one in Canada and rose as high as 28th in the world. In 1992 she reached the quarterfinals of the U.S. Open before losing to Monica Seles who would go on to win the Grand Slam title that year. Patricia Hy is now a tennis consultant and we've reached her in Halifax. Hello Patricia.

PATRICIA HY: Well hello Duncan. Thank you for having me.

DM: Great you could join us. Just how big was this Rogers Cup victory for Bianca and rescue while not not only is it big Bianca but for tennis in Canada in Canada and in the world. It's it's a feeling you cannot describe it just gets me goosebumps as we're speaking about it you know winning in your hometown a great a big event a great event like Rogers Cup far exceeds a Grand Slam just because not that Grantham aid but being to be able to play at your hometown is just a fantastic achievement.

DM: There was so much buzz following Bianca Andreescu through this tournament. How surprised were you with that with the ending.

PATRICIA HY: The ending was the one that you know obviously it was disappointing for everyone, especially for Bianca because you know she all week long she competed so well. She played so well and she wants to know you know what it takes to be up against a former number one in the world and you know not taking anything away from the title, there's just a little bit missing like a cherry on top of a sundae.

DM: Watching her this week she seems to have such great court sense Bianca Andreescu. When you watch her play, what do you see? What makes her such an exciting player right now?

PATRICIA HY: Well first of all I met Bianca five years ago when we first moved to Toronto and I didn't know her at the time I saw her at the National 16s in Montreal. And as a coach you know you have the habit of scouting every player and I saw this girl. She didn't do particular well, but I was able to watch a few matches. She was one of the very few, if not the only one that had such great court sense and I was very curious with her and to see her, I follow Bianca you know with her matches and achievements and when I saw her this week and you know that she just got 100 times better. She's more mature now and she's put in a lot a lot of work. When you have all three things aligned like Bianca does now, great things happen, you know mentally, emotionally and physically. And of course she had these injuries that she had to deal with, but she is at a great place right now.

DM: You mentioned the mental aspect. So much of tennis is that mental toughness and I wonder I mean playing in front of a home crowd, what role does does Bianca Andreescu's mental strength play in her success?

PATRICIA HY: She she carried Canada into every match that she played. So coming in the pressure is completely different when you play at hometown because you want to do so well for your people. And that's extra baggage she had to play with. And of course dealing with the nerves when she goes on the court and not to mention an opponent across the net. So you know it's the pressure of that magnitude, everything's weighs ten times heavier.

DM: Lots of people have been talking about that encounter at the end of the match between Bianca Andreescu and Serena Williams. Williams had discovered that she had an injury and retired and Bianca Andreescu went and showed a lot of compassion. I mean giving her a hug, giving her some supportive words. What does that tell you about her?

PATRICIA HY: It's first very important to me is the person. That's the person with compassionate you know coming through you know obviously she was very happy you know to to win, but the first she went with instinct. That is just an old soul speaking. With a lot of grace, a lot of maturity came from Bianca to even know that she acted with instinct. She just she opened up to the entire world to see who she is and not many people will do that.

DM: They were also commiserating about the injuries that both of them have experienced. I mean Bianca Andreescu herself has been out with some pretty major injuries in the past few months. You've dealt with injuries and time off and dropping in the rankings. Can you tell us a little bit about how tough visit to weather those ups and downs when you're a pro tennis player?

PATRICIA HY: Well you know the downs is that you're fighting, you want to be in there competing and it's just so frustrating when you can't because you're restricted. You're in rehab and you know it stops you. The biggest things is that you didn't stop on your will. It wasn't you know you were forced to take a step back. However on the upside is that it gives you time to reflect on what you could have done better. You know and as long as you have a good team around you for good support to help you through the tough times, a lot of the times coming back from injuries, players come back really strong.

DM: You mentioned that Bianca Andreescu was carrying Canada and I mean I can't help but think that she's got the weight of the country's expectations on her now and watching her, I couldn't help, but think about her fellow Canadian Eugenie Bouchard who you know has become a bit of a cautionary tale. She hasn't quite lived up to the expectations of you know the hungry public. So what lessons are there for Bianca Andreescu in Bouchard's journey.

PATRICIA HY: Bianca played for the right reason right off the bat and I'm not saying Jeanie didn't however big just because I knew Bianca when she was a lot younger five years younger. You can tell when an athlete, when somebody does things for themselves because that is what they eat and breathe by. That's what they really want to do from the from the start. And when you compete, obviously when you start doing well you get all the bells and whistles and perks that come with it. The number one cause that interfere with the progression of an achievement is distractions. All of a sudden you're getting all this attention, promotions, endorsements that require you to spend a lot more time off the court and that two things need to happen if the team around them need to get back into, onto the court. Because when you are doing as well as Bianca is, I promise you all the coaches are paying attention to tactics, what is it they need to do to take her down.

DM: What's her victory tell you about the health of Canadian tennis right now?

PATRICIA HY: It's huge. With every generation there has to be a role model and that role model you know influences the positive in the next generation. So when you get Bianca is so down to earth. She's a great kid. She is going make huge changes in the next generations to come because she is about working hard, is about compassion. Is about understanding that the person comes before the tennis, although you know everybody thinks that tennis comes first. That's not how it works. The person has to be solid and her background upbringing, I have to credit that to her parents and of course her achievements to her team.

DM: Well if Milos Raonic had an impact on this crop of young Canadian tennis teens that are wowing the world right now, I mean you can only hope that Bianca Andreescu is having a huge impact on the young girls who are out there on the courts right now. Patricia Hy thank you so much for providing your analysis on this.

PATRICIA HY: Thank you very much for having me.

DM: Patricia Hy is a former professional tennis player and now a tennis consultant. We reached her in Halifax.

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Missing & Murdered: Finding Cleo - Episode 2

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current. This summer on The Current we're playing some of the best of CBC original podcasts and this week, the award winning Finding Cleo. Host, Connie Walker, investigates the case of a Cree girl from Saskatchewan who went missing in the 1970s. Cleo's family believed she'd been sent to a foster family in Arkansas, abused and then killed as she tried to hitchhike back to her reserve in Saskatchewan. In the first episode, host Connie Walker introduced us to Christine Cameron, one of Cleo's sisters. After decades of trying to get answers, Christine gets a tip from Saskatchewan social services that they may know more about where Cleo was when she died, but she has to wait to find out exactly what they know. Here's episode two of finding Cleo.

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[ringing]

Connie: Hey Christine, it's Marnie and Connie.

Connie: How are you?

Connie: Oh, my goodness!

Marnie: Hi, Johnny.

Christine: ...Anyway I was telling John that Kari called me this morning.

Christine: She said that the state of New Jersey is willing to give us a registration of the live birth. New Jersey.

Connie: Did you have any idea that Cleo was in New Jersey?

Connie: How are you guys feeling? I can't imagine.

Christine: I was just telling Johnny, I said, well, if she was never in Arkansas and she's in New Jersey, then there might be a remote possibility that she's still alive, too. She didn't offer a death certificate. Maybe she's still alive. That would be cool.

Connie: Oh, my gosh.

Connie: Could Cleo actually be alive? It seems so unlikely, but they were wrong about her being adopted in Arkansas. Is there a chance they’re wrong about her murder, too?

Adoption Services: Hello?

Christine: I have no idea what her date of birth is.

Connie: This call is getting very confusing very quickly. The woman in New Jersey just doesn’t seem to grasp why Christine is trying to find her sister.

Adoption Services: We don't give out information about other adoptees to birth siblings.

Christine: Why is that?

Adoption Services: Identity. And you're saying your sister passed. Like I said, we give out non-identifying information, which is how you can get your medical records. That's all we give out.

Christine: That's all you give out?

Adoption Services: Mhm.

Christine: Do you have an appeal process or something in place where I can write to your state or whatever, or whatever board it is that oversees your adoption process now and in the past, so that I can find resolution to my inquiry?

Adoption Services: So you can write to the state of New Jersey. I would suggest that you send it to maybe the governor's office.

Connie: The governor's office. This government employee is suggesting that Christine reach out to New Jersey governor Chris Christie’s office for help.

Adoption Services: I mean, you can go online and do that. Do you have access to the web?

Adoption Services: Okay, let me give you the address for that, hold on one second. So it’s nj.gov/nj/gov. So I'm sending your information to the registry that you are looking for your sister.

[ringing]

Connie: Cleo’s other biological siblings might know something, anything more about her. We’re planning a trip to meet Johnny in person, but in the meantime, we call their brother Mark. He was adopted in Saskatchewan but now lives in Edmonton, Alberta.

Connie: Sorry, I just wanted to put my headphones on so I can take notes.

Connie: I got your number from Mark…

Connie: Do you have a few minutes to chat right now?

Connie: Okay, great. So I'm not sure how much Mark told you about what it is that we're hoping to do.

Connie: Do you remember Cleo?

Connie: That's heartbreaking. I'm sorry to hear that.

Connie: So do you remember anything from before your adoption?

Connie: We don't have to -

Connie: Yeah, we don't have to, we don't have to get into it now.

Connie: That’s because I’m worried that getting into whatever happened to her as a child could be retraumatizing. I think it’s important to try to be sensitive about trauma when covering stories from Indigenous communities. Because the harsh reality is that whatever story you're there to cover, it’s likely not the only traumatic event that the person has dealt with. But I find that even though painful memories are often brought up in these conversations, most people are ready to talk. And despite my hesitation, it seems April is, too.

Connie: That's very young to be out there on your own.

April: That’d be awesome. Anything I can do to get Cleo’s ashes home, you know.

Connie: I want to hear more of April’s story, but I hang up the phone feeling quite conflicted. April is keen to participate in the podcast: eager, actually. She wants to help in the search for Cleo and even says she has some documents that might have some clues about her. But April was also incredibly open about her ongoing struggles. And I wonder, would being involved in this process be a good thing for her? Is that even our decision to make? I know that finding Cleo is so important to her family and this family's story deserves to be told, but I don't want to make life more difficult for any of them. We talk to April again and she says that her parents have some concerns and asks that we talk to them, too. April is actually the only Semaganis kid who still has a relationship with her adoptive parents. In fact, they’re still really close. I wonder if they know anything about Cleo. There were six Semaganis kids in the care of Social Services. How did they come to adopt April and her sister Annette?

Kay: At the time, it seemed like a really good thing to do. We had a good life in front of us.

Kay: And the thought was a Vietnamese baby.

Kay: Have you thought about Native kids? And we hadn’t.

Kay: I remember feeling almost a little bit guilty. Because we really hadn't thought about kids in our own country at that point, but we were open.

Connie: So open that once they contacted the Children’s Aid Society to explore the idea of adoption, things moved very quickly.

Jeff: And then they called back and said, "Well, would you consider going out to meet them?" Which is what we did.

Kay: I don't think we even felt like we could say no at that point. And we were saying yes without having one iota of an idea what that really meant.

Connie: Jeff and Kay soon found themselves on a plane from Toronto to Saskatchewan, a trip that would change the course of their lives.

Connie: Do you remember the first time you met her?

Jeff: Absolutely. I remember the first time I met her.

Kay: Oh, of course. Of course.

Jeff: So it was outside of North Battleford, Saskatchewan, in the middle of winter.

Minus 40 degrees. We were on the Prairies.

Jeff: ...little matching dresses. And as Kay and I went in, it was…

Jeff: "Hi, mommy and daddy."

Kay: And they were cute as buttons.

Jeff: And they were just all happy and full of beans. They'd sit on our knee and talk to us, and they were terrific. It was hard to get back on the plane without them.

Connie: I wondered, what information or advice did Jeff and Kay get from the social workers? Were they told anything about April and Annette’s culture or family?

Jeff: You know, they'd send these inexperienced social workers to visit, they were just... it was really not very pleasant.

Kay: We were all pretty anxious. Everybody was wanting to please everybody.

Jeff: You know, in retrospect, there were a lot of issues that came with them that we knew nothing about.

Kay: You know, they needed and wanted a lot of attention, and rightly so. There was no hesitation to give them that.

Connie: I wonder if in those first few months April or Annette ever talked about their family back home in Saskatchewan. Did April and Annette miss their sister Cleo?

Kay: We received a page, basically, on each kid. And the paragraphs were similar. "Happy child, doing well in school," but no detail. And I even think it was in some of the documents that Cleo had an interest in staying in touch with her younger sisters, April and Annette.

Connie: Cleo wanted to keep in touch with her little sisters. Hearing this breaks my heart. I can’t help but think of how hard this must have been for her: a young girl, already separated from her mother, and then again from all of her siblings.

Kay: So we were open, but it might not have been the same feeling for the adoptive parents for Cleo. I thought she - there's something about New Jersey, that she was adopted in a family in New Jersey.

Connie: You have that memory?

Kay: I thought I read that somewhere. I thought that was in the documents. But that isn't necessarily something that they tell you. So I don't know.

Connie: And although there were ups and downs, both Jeff and Kay say the girls settled into their new lives. There wasn’t much sign of the trouble that was coming until just before Annette’s 13th birthday.

Kay: She said, "I want to go skating." She went, apparently, skating. And just simply did not come back. And I got a call at somewhere between 11 and 12 that night from her just saying, "I'm not coming home," and hung up. So that began the running that is very, very, very familiar to adoptive families.

Connie: Again, I’m reminded of Cleo who was also very young when she ran away from her adoptive home. A year later, April ran away, too.

Kay: Right at her 13th birthday. Same thing.

Jeff: You know, thinking back, I don't know how the kids were in as good a shape as they were, given what they've been through.

Kay: She just started not coming home.

Connie: Kay says she doesn’t know why her girls ran away, but she believes it had to do with the trauma they both experienced as young girls.

Kay: I began to hear stories, and the stories that I heard were that they were both sexually and physically abused in their foster homes.

Jeff: It came to light that they were abused by their foster father, or so the girls said.

Kay: Oh, it's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

Jeff: You know, I have to believe them, and I wonder where the Children's Aid was about that out there. And you know, there's never been any pursuit of that, and that's horrific.

Kay: I did have a conversation with Annette at one point, saying that if she wanted to pursue any legal process, that I would totally stand by her. But that I wouldn't initiate it without her.

Connie: Kay says April ran for years, but now she’s in a good place. And since stopping ECT treatments, she has asked her parents for help in piecing together her life story.

Connie: How did you feel, doing that?

Kay: Truth heals. There's so much healing that needs to happen, there's so much truth that needs to be told.

Connie: Even though it seemed like a long shot, Christine was hoping that maybe

there was a chance that Cleo was still alive. But this feels like confirmation. Cleo died. It’s what her family has always believed, but still incredibly disappointing to hear.

Connie: Do you remember how you felt?

Kay: I was, I was shocked, to imagine a child dying so young.

Connie: So, we still don’t know when Cleo was born, but we know that April and Annette were adopted in 1974. And according to Kay, Cleo died a few years after that. I’m hoping that the documents April has will have more information. Both Kay and Jeff have told us that they support April’s decision to do an interview, so after careful consideration, we head to a small town in New England to meet April in person.

[car beeps, locked]

Connie: Hi! It's Connie and Marnie!

[beeps]

Connie: Hi. How are you?

April: Okay. How are you?

April: Nice to meet you too. This is my baby, Precious.

April: Doesn't know quite what to think. But you're not guys, so she's not running away.

Connie: So did you make these?

[cat meows]

Connie: April shows me a picture of her and Annette.

April: That's Annette, this is me, and this is our adoption picture.

Connie: It's like one of those Sears portraits. The girls are sitting really close together, Annette’s arm is behind April’s back, and they’re wearing matching plaid dresses. They have little barrettes holding their curly hair away from their faces. April looks to be about four or five years old in the picture, and she has a really big, wide smile.

April: I call her Sissy.

April: And then she met that idiot, and he was abusive to her, from what mom told me. And she started drinking again after, while they were together, and then he left her and she couldn't take it. You know, 18 months after she met him, she was dead. Cirrhosis of the liver.

Connie: Annette died in 2008 when she was just 40 years old.

Connie: How often do you think about her?

April: Every day. You know, just because we went through everything together. We were always there for each other.

Connie: There is a long silence and honestly, I’m not sure what to say. But I do know that April and Annette’s experiences are not unique. Mental illness, substance abuse and suicide are incredibly common among survivors of the Sixties Scoop. Psychologists say they’re all the effects of losing your culture and identity. And while April still struggles to overcome her past, I’m grateful she has support and a community here.

April: Yeah, those are the whiskers that tickle me in the morning

Connie: April is petting her cat, and it’s obvious what a comfort she is to her.

April: ...And it's just as if she's saying I'm here. I'm here for you. I still have those bad dreams. You know, I can't seem to get rid of them. Two nights ago, I just almost woke up screaming. But I don't remember them in the morning. I just know that she is pulling me out of a bad dream. She is saying to me that you know, it's okay, mom, it's only a dream. You wake up and you’ll find that out.

Connie: You have my favorite thing ever.

Connie: As April drives, she points out people she knows, her favourite restaurant,

the apartment building that she eventually wants to move into.

April: There's the pharmacy. That's where I get my medications from. It's just such a sweet town. Not too big, not too small.

April: I hitchhiked down here and I saw this state for the first time. And it just took my breath away, the beauty of it.

Connie: This reminds me of how Kay told me that April is on a healing journey. And I can see that, too. April says part of it is reconnecting with her biological siblings. She says Mark calls her about once a week, and Johnny has texted her a few times already today. So much of this new relationship with her siblings seems to be fueled by their quest to find their sister.

April: I can feel the roots starting to go into the ground. You know, and there are four main roots. You know, the four of us. And I just couldn't, as we go through this process and the process of life, you know, they're going to grow even more. You know but it will be a solid foundation. That's the best part about it, because it's never been solid all my life.

Connie: Describe what we're driving on right now.

Connie: This is beautiful.

Connie: April has pulled over, and we’re standing on a hill overlooking the town below. She’s holding a picture of Cleo.

April: I wish she was smiling. I'd love to see her smile. You can see her eyes, you know, it just...

April: It's just, she doesn't understand. And that's heartbreaking. I don't think she had a very good childhood. None of us did. At least we got to see the end of the road, where she never got a chance to. Oh, I'd love to be able to hug her. You know, this is my oldest sister. [sighs] Just finally figuring out what life’s all about. But I don't think I'll truly feel 100% what it’s about, you know. But the good thing about it is the four of us are doing it together now.

[music continues]

[indistinct speaking, car door closes]

Connie: Back at her apartment, April shows me the document that she got from her mom Kay.

Connie: What is this?

Connie: Have you read this?

April: Okay. [reading] Annette was born January 1st, 1967 in Saskatchewan and was made a permanent ward on September 29th, 1972. She is an Indian with band status. She is 46 inches tall, weighs 50 pounds.

Connie: The document is from 1974, so it’s typewritten. It’s three pages long and broken up into sections. At the very top, it says “Background History.”

April: [continues reading] Both girls are found to play well together with neither being notably dominant over the other. Foster mother thinks Annette is very intelligent, and sleeping and eating habits are excellent. [scoffs and stops reading] Geez. It's like they're talking about an animal, you know, it's... geez. [continues reading] Annette's mother is a single twenty-nine year old registered Cree Indian woman. She is attractive with dark brown hair and eyes…

Connie: This is our first real glimpse the Semaganis children’s biological mother, Lillian. She’s been such a mystery for us, but I think learning about Lillian is key to understanding Cleo’s story.

April: [continues reading] She is a friendly open person, polite and appreciative of any help given her. She is sensitive and easily threatened by criticism. She completed Grade 13 and with the help of the Department of Indian Affairs, attended Grade...

Connie: I think that's Grade 8.

April: Oh, Grade 8. [continues reading] She completed Grade 8. She was considered to be bright and capable and planned to complete high school to enter a nursing course.

Connie: There is a section in the document called placement history. This outlines where Annette and April lived while they were in care. This is the foster home that April remembers, but has tried so hard to forget.

April: [continues reading] Mother is very active foster mother and father is not as much in the picture. It has been an excellent home for them.

April: How little did they know.

Connie: Can you just read that last sentence again? She does, she does what?

April: [reading] Johnny born in 1961. Cleopatra was born in '65, are in foster homes and plans are underway for their adoption.

Connie: Not only her birth year, but this document was written in January 1974 and says plans were underway for Cleo’s adoption. So Cleo would have been 8 or 9 years old when she was adopted. There’s so much more to unpack in that report about Cleo’s siblings, about their mother, about why they were apprehended.

April: Hey love. Can I call back in about 15 minutes? Okay.

Connie: But it’s been a long day and I sense it’s time to go.

Connie: We can get out of your hair.

Connie: I hope so.

Connie: I leave April’s apartment wondering just how much of her struggles can be tied directly back to the trauma she experienced as a child. Hearing about the devastating impacts of the abuse she and Annette went through in foster care weighs heavy on my heart. I hope the journey April is on will bring her peace and I hope our investigation to help find Cleo can bring all of her siblings some resolution. I felt we were one step closer with finding out Cleo’s birthdate and the year of her adoption, but I had no idea then where it would lead us. No idea just how significant it would become. I didn't realize that discovering those little details would set in motion a domino effect that would lead us right to Cleo.

DM: That was Episode 2 of Finding Cleo, hosted by CBC reporter Connie Walker. Cleo's story continues on tomorrow's summer edition of The Current. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Beverly Hills 90210 alum Ian Ziering, who played Steve Sanders, joins Q guest host Nana aba Duncan to discuss the show's reboot. Now earlier in the show we were talking about Canadian Bianca Andreescu's big Roger Cup win. She won the title when Serena Williams was forced to pull out of the final due to injury. Serena Williams might just be turning to one specific song to help her bounce back. Apparently Irene Cara's Flashdance.. What a Feeling is the song that inspires the tennis great. We leave you with that piece of empowerment today. Pull up your leg warmers. I'm Duncan McCue. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Song: "Flashdance... What a Feeling " by Irene Cara]

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Aug. 13, 2019 episode transcript

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