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The AIH Transcript for August 05, 2019

Hosts: Piya Chattopadhyay and Talia Schlanger

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hello, I’m Piya Chattopadhyay, sitting in for Carol Off

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

TS: Tonight:

PC: Rhetorical questions. At least 22 people are dead after a shooting in an El Paso Walmart — and a Texas lawmaker believes the gunman's hateful beliefs were inspired by the U.S. president's attacks on Hispanic immigrants.

TS: Hitting close to home. On Saturday, Benjamin Thompson lost the sense that his home town of El Paso was a safe place — because he lost a high school friend in that shooting.

PC: That's a wrap. Baltej Dhillon changed the RCMP dress code when he became the first officer to wear a turban — and now that he's retiring, he's got more than the red uniform to get off his chest.

TS: Test tube. In an attempt to make people's daily commutes sweeter, the city of Vienna pumps refreshing fragrances into the subway — but passengers are fuming at the perfuming.

PC: She used rock to get out of the hard place. To scare off a cougar that won't leave her alone, a B.C. woman blared a Metallica song out of her phone — and when the story blew up, the lead singer himself got onto her phone.

TS: And… an uphill battle. It took him nearly 13 hours to run 125 kilometres over three Rocky Mountains to win the grueling Canadian Death Race — and Alex Petrosky gained a whole new perspective while losing several toenails.

TS: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that assumes it was a staggering achievement.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: El Paso: Lawmaker, Baltej Dhillon retires, Death Race winner

El Paso: Lawmaker

Guest: Cesar Blanco

TS: The massacre happened on Saturday. But two days later, the death count in El Paso is still rising. Two more people died in the hospital today, bringing the total killed by a shooter at a Walmart in the west Texas city to 22. The accused killer apparently drove across the state to target people in the largely Latino city — posting a racist screed online that included a warning about the, quote, "Hispanic invasion of Texas." This morning, U.S. President Donald Trump called on the country to, quote, "condemn racism, bigotry and white supremacy." Unquote. But the people of El Paso may not find much comfort in those words. The President and his administration have repeatedly cited the border city in attacks on migrants and refugees. Cesar Blanco represents El Paso in the Texas House of Representatives as a Democrat. We reached him in El Paso.

PC: Mr. Blanco, let me first just extend condolences to your community and your city.

CESAR BLANCO: Thank you very much. We're going through a tough time, but I also want to wish our condolences to the victims of the shootings in Dayton, Ohio.

PC: I know it has only been two days since this shooting took place in El Paso. Can you tell me what the mood is like today, on this Monday?

CB: Well, you know we're still in shock as a community. We are working hard to make sure that the families have the resources needed. We are also still dealing with individuals who are in hospitals fighting for their lives. We just learned that two additional people died in the hospitals today. So it's still very fresh. Our hearts are hurting. And it's just tragic that these type of things continue to happen throughout our country.

PC: It appears that the attacker targeted people because they were Hispanic. And I know El Paso is a mixed community, but largely Hispanic. Can you tell me how unsettling knowing that is for the people of your city?

CB: Well, you know I think the federal government has a responsibility to protect all minorities in this country. And we want to see some action at the federal level to make sure that these type of things don't happen throughout the country. It is frightening that this individual drove more than 600 miles away here to our community. They did the research clearly about our community, and wreaked havoc and fear. We want the federal government to take action to make sure these type of things don't happen.

PC: Well, let me ask you about that. Because since this shooting took place on Saturday, some people have been drawing a line between the shooter — who wrote about a, quote, Hispanic invasion — and your president — President Donald Trump, who is known for his heated rhetoric on immigrants and immigration — but today, President Trump said, and I'm quoting him here, in one voice, our nation must condemn, racism bigotry, and white supremacy. What did you hear when the president said those words?

CB: Well, this is a president who kicked off his presidential campaign calling people of my ethnicity murderers, rapists, people who are invading our country. You know I take offence to those comments. As a veteran who served active duty in the military for six years, I consider myself a patriot of this country — just like any other Hispanic or an individual from any other race. It starts from the top. It starts from our president. It starts with our members of Congress and our senators. And when that kind of hatred and language is utilized on the campaign trail, it gives permission for other folks to do the same. So the president has gone down this ugly path. He can't take it back. And I think he owes people an apology.

PC: And so do you believe that the president holds some responsibility for what happened in El Paso on Saturday?

CB: I think all leaders who don't immediately condemn any kind of racism has to have the responsibility and share responsibility for these type of things to continue to happen. Separate from that, there's also the responsibility of leaders to act on reforming how easily accessible guns are in our country. Elected officials need to have the strength and the courage to do what's right to protect people. And we haven't seen that courage yet.

PC: And to that point, the president today also said and, again I'm quoting him, mental illness and hatred pulled the trigger — not the gun. He then added that he would look at strong background checks for gun owners. How much confidence do you have that the deaths in El Paso and in Dayton, Ohio this weekend will prompt action on gun control? We have seen many mass shootings in your country, and the dial has moved very little on gun control in the past. Do you really believe this time anything is going to be different?

CB: You know I think that our country should be ashamed that one of the only industrialized countries in the world where these type of massacres are occurring. And the elected leadership continues to fail to take action is an embarrassment to the history of this country and an embarrassment to humanity. We are better than this as a country. We must overcome this. And we need elected leaders to take action.

PC: You are one of those elected leaders. You're in the House of Representatives in your state of Texas. What do you plan on doing when it comes to action?

CB: Well, I've authored legislation that eliminates the ability for high-powered magazines to be sold in the state of Texas. I've offered legislation that eliminates gun sales without background checks through internet loopholes. I am somebody who has received training with high-powered rifles. I know the kind of carnage they can create. Only one received its hearings, but none of my bills moved through the committee process or onto the House floor for a vote. We need to do that. We need the support. And it's got to be both Republicans and Democrats working together to save people's lives.

PC: And do you expect that that will happen given the divisiveness between Republicans and Democrats across your country and in your state?

CB: I can only have hope. And along with that hope, be relentless to be able to implement laws that save lives. We have to. I owe it to the 20 victims — 22 actually as of today — that were killed in my district. I owe it to them to continue to fight to make change in our country to keep people safe.

PC: Mr. Blanco, again, I'm very sorry what happened in your city and our condolences once again and thank you for making the time for us today.

CB: Thank you very much.

PC: Take good care. Bye-bye.

CB: Bye-bye.

TS: Cesar Blanco is a Democratic Texas state representative. His district includes El Paso — and that's where we reached him. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. And coming up later on the show, we'll hear from a friend of one of the shooting victims.

[Music: Ambient]

Baltej Dhillon retires

Guest: Baltej Dhillon

TS: He changed the Mounties' approach to religious dress forever. And now, after nearly three decades in the RCMP, Inspector Baltej Dhillon has retired. Mr. Dhillon is Sikh. When he enlisted in the RCMP in 1988, his turban and beard were prohibited under the RCMP's dress code. And a lot of Canadians made it clear that they felt the headdress and facial hair didn't fit their image of a Mountie. But Mr. Dhillon's enlistment changed the dress policy. He would go on to serve for 29 years — and work on some of Canada's most high-profile cases. We reached Baltej Dhillon in Surrey, British Columbia.

PC: Mr. Dhillon, after nearly three decades with the RCMP, you have decided to retire. Why is that?

BALTEJ DHILLON: Well, there was no plan in retiring as much as I'm getting close to that age now, towards the latter part of my career. But an opportunity came knocking on my door with the combined forces special enforcement unit, and it was too good to turn down. So it was it was a good opportunity and the timing was good as well.

PC: So let's go back some 30-plus years. When you first enlisted, why did you want to be a police officer?

BD: Yeah, thank you. I really did not initially want to become a police officer. My initial you know hope and desire was to actually pursue a career in law. And it was in that effort to try to better my standing in applying to a law school that I was given advice and counselling from you know some of my professors at college that having some volunteer work with a police department would better my chances. So that is how I got to become a volunteer. How I got to you know understand law enforcement but through volunteering with the Surrey RCMP. And it was over a period of two years that I got to meet with some incredible police officers, role models really, mentors for myself. And also recognize that there was a need in the community. There weren't very many South Asian, Punjabi-speaking police officers at the time. And as I went out into the community, there were a lot of folks that would come to me initially thinking that I was a police officer. And so it was over a period of time that I made a conscious decision that this was a rewarding career, an honourable career, a noble career.

PC: You were the first ever RCMP officer who wears a turban.

BD: Mmm hmmm.

PC: And the thing about being a first is that it often comes with hardship because you are breaking barriers and convention and such. Do you remember the reactions you got on your first day of your job and when you came in as a recruit?

BD: All of it. Just like yesterday. It's all gone by with the blink of an eye. But I remember it all. When you know the stares that I got when I got to Depot, the silence in the mess hall as I walked in. There were 600 recruits that were there for training, and you know a second before they saw me it was roaring in there. And then the second after it was pin-drop silence as they looked at the new recruit with a turban. My troop mates were wonderful. They were welcoming. They you know embraced all of me. I actually tied turbans on them when I got the uniform turban, and they were hungry to know more. And that is the calibre of the police officers that we have in the RCMP. When it came into Quesnel —my first job — you know it was mixed feelings. I would walk into bars doing my bar walk and bar watch program in our patrols, and there were bars where people would stop drinking, and the music would stop, and they would stand and boo while I was doing my job. And then there was one bar in Quesnel where the young folks who would come up and you know give me a kiss on the cheek, give me a hug, give me a high five and say way to go. So I got both.

PC: And what about your partner or partners in the early days? Were they were they onboard with you?

BD: Absolutely. Throughout my career, everyone you know for the most part I mean I can't read people's minds. But as far as actions go and how they interacted with me, it was wonderful. There was one instance in Quesnel when I first started there that I came to learn from another you know a new recruit — a colleague — that one of the members that I worked with had shared with him that he was you know thankful that this new recruit did not wear a turban because if he did, he wouldn't back him up. That was dealt with swiftly by my staff sergeant at the time. He was not going to stand for any of it. I received an apology and we went on. We carried on.

PC: And you took this fight — you won this fight — to have the ability — the right — to wear a turban while serving as an RCMP officer. I'm wondering how did things change for the better after you had won your case? In other words, as you about there were hardships. There were good things. But did the hardships get easier after you'd won?

BD: They did. And, Piya, I would say this was in my victory, it was Canada's victory. I think it was as a country we won, and as a people we won you know with our desire to always be welcoming and embracing change and the differences that we all carry within us. Whether it's a lifestyle or whether it's a religious requirement, you know I think that's what we're known for around the world as Canadians. So I think was our victory, not my victory.

PC: Your retirement comes at a time when there has been an enormous outcry over Bill 21 in Quebec — which bans public servants from wearing any sort of religious symbol while working. That would include police officers at the local and provincial level from wearing a turban.

BD: Hmmm.

PC: Given again that you were the first and broke barriers, and now you're seeing what many would describe as a setback in Quebec, how much of a setback is this in your mind?

BD: It is a setback. And these are Baltej Dhillon's opinion, not the RCMP's opinion — I must share that. Nor are the opinions of my new employer, CFSU. It's offensive to live in this country where we have fought so hard for you know all of our rights to embrace each other's differences and to celebrate each other. It's offensive. And it's offensive to me that somehow because I wore a turban in the police force that I somehow was going to treat people unfairly or folks would not have the capacity. And that's offensive that people in Quebec would not have the capacity to look beyond our differences and look beyond what I wear on my head and to be able to engage and connect and relate to me as a human being — as I would with them. So this is an incredible step backwards. I you know speak clearly about this. Our forefathers — our soldiers — who fought World War 1 and World War 2, who secured our ability to have freedom in the in this country, this is offensive to them. This is a slap and an insult to their sacrifices.

PC: Before I let you go, you said look, I'm retiring from the RCMP, but I'm not going to play golf in Arizona or sit on a beach chair in Florida. [BD laughs] I'm going to continue you know law enforcement with the CFSU. What exactly will you be doing?

BD: Sure. CFSU is a combined force and special enforcement unit, who is charged with battling organized crime, gangs, and guns here in British Columbia. And this is an ongoing battle — an ongoing effort — that we've been engaged in over the over the last few decades. And the fight continues.

PC: Well, Mr. Dhillon, I hope you at least get a few days off of R-and-R before you start your next chapter in your career. And thank you again, and congratulations on your retirement from the RCMP.

BD: Thank you, Piya. Take care.

PC: Bye-bye.

TS: After 29 years in the RCMP, Baltej Dhillon has retired. We reached him in Surrey, B.C.

[Music: Ambient]

Death Race winner

Guest: Alex Petrosky

TS: This long weekend, most Canadians went on road trips, spent time with family — generally took things pretty easy. I mean, it's the middle of the summer, right? Who wants to risk injury, toenail loss, or dry-heaving from exertion? Well, Alex Petrosky, for one. Yesterday, he ran — and won — the Canadian Death Race, a gruelling ultra-marathon that encompasses three Rocky Mountain peaks in Alberta. He covered the 125 kilometres in just under 13 hours. That's one of the fastest finish times in the race's 20-year history. We reached Alex Petrosky, recovering at home in Edmonton.

PC: Mr. Petrosky, what are you doing today to recover from this ultra-marathon?

ALEX PETROSKY: I'm lying around, and nursing my sore feet and ankle. The left one looks a little bit like it's been blown up like a balloon. My toes are black and blue, and I've got some just cuts and scrapes all over the bottom my legs.

PC: And is that, quote/unquote, normal after running something like this?

AP: You know it actually depends on the runner. I envy the runners that have feet that look good after some of these races. But I'm definitely not one of them. For me, it is very, very normal — and especially after a race like we had this weekend where it's so wet you're on the verge of trench foot for probably the last four hours of it.

PC: Oh dear! Okay, I have to ask you this. What on earth draws you to run something that is seriously called the Canadian Death Race?

AP: It is a very good question. [PC laughs] I have a real passion for trail running. And I have I guess and many of the other runners do too. I think we have a personality trait where we like to push ourselves. And sometimes that gets a little bit carried away.

PC: And just to put it in context, this race is the equivalent distance-wise of running three marathons back-to-back-to-back. And you are doing this over mountains and on rough terrain. And I understand there was a change in elevation of 5000 meters through the course of the race. How does your body even deal with that kind of altitude change?

AP: Well, you don't do all the 5000 meters all at once — thankfully. So there's that many meters of elevation across the race. I don't know what you get to as far as the peak elevation. But you do get above the Alpine a couple of times. It's more the climbing that really gets to the body. It's the non-stop up and up, you know kilometre after kilometre. And your engine or your body is trying to go at full blast. If you're not prepared for that, it can get pretty overwhelming.

PC: This all sounds incredibly tough. But what's the toughest thing for you about competing in this race this time?

AP: I think it's the mental game. I've got my techniques for it. I don't look at my kilometres in. I don't look at the number of kilometres left. I don't really even look at the time. It can almost lead to a quasi-panic attack if you're following too closely.

PC: And is this race is it dangerous? Like did you get injured at all?

AP: I wouldn't say that I got injured. The body always comes up with things that limits. You know my ankles this time where were the limit that you hit. And if you're not hitting a limit, you're probably not pushing yourself. I think every racer out there found their body pushing back at some point. So there is that danger. There's always the danger of falling. I can't remember a race where I didn't take a good spill — and this one was no different. And then the last one is wildlife. And I'll say with the Canadian Death Race, It seems like the wildlife is very much a part of the race. And so both last year and this year — which were the only two years that I've done it — I've comes you know face-to-face with a with a black bear. And I'm not I'm not a bear person, so that is definitely not something that I'm accustomed to. [PC laughs] And yeah.

PC: Wait, you've done this twice. And both times you've ran into a bear?

AP: That's correct. Yep.

PC: And then what did you do?

AP: Stopped in my tracks, slowly backed up, thought about my life and my family for a couple of seconds, and tried to back around the bend nicely and calmly. It’s just a risk I guess you take. If I ran this race again, I’d probably carry bears but at this point.

PC: And what about things that you need for sustenance, food and water? What did that look like as you as you're running, you're carrying this with you, I'm imagining?

AP: You are. And you scout your races beforehand. And so I know exactly how many kilometres it is until I can get water again, and you know whether I'm taking half a litre to a litre of water per hour. And as far as calories or sustenance goes, I have kind of runners’ candies that I take on an interval. And my watch gives me a beep, and says now is your time. And so I do it.

PC: And so what's the first thing you eat or drink at crossing that finish line?

AP: really hurting for calories when you start imagining and kind of fantasizing about the food and the beer at the finish line. I think I probably had nine bowls of noodle soup after that and sat by a fire. And people were drinking beers and waiting for everybody to come in. And it's just non-stop cheering after that. It's a really fantastic scene.

PC: We began our conversation by you telling me that you're pretty much on the couch today because you've got some swelling, and some pain, and some other things from running this race. And I'm wondering as you're laying there are you thinking about what's next in terms of racing?

AP: I have signed up for a race in three weeks in B.C. called the Black Spur Ultra. Not one that I've done before, but I'm pretty stoked to head down there and give that a go.

PC: How many kilometres is that race?

AP: I think it's 108.

PC: Through mountains again?

AP: Yep. Yep.

PC: Well, I hope you do well at that race. You've survived the Canadian Death Race. Not only survived it, but won it. Way to go.

AP: Thank you very much.

PC: Bye.

AP: Bye.

TS: That was Alex Petrosky, the winner of this weekend's Canadian Death Race, an ultra-marathon held in the Rocky Mountains in Alberta. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music: Ambient]

Vienna subway smells

TS: In 1960, during screenings of the film "Scent of Mystery", the audience could always tell the killer was about to arrive — because they could smell his pipe tobacco. That was the plan for the first movie shown in "Smell-O-Vision", anyway. But it didn't quite work out. The odours were often out of sync with the action. There was a distracting hissing sound before viewers were engulfed in the tobacco, coffee, and shoe polish smells. And the smells were unevenly distributed — some people didn't get them at all. But there may have been another reason "Smell-O-Vision" didn't take off: movie theatres just smell like movie theatres — and whether you like that smell or not, it's the one you're used to. Seems the same goes for the subway in Vienna. Since a ban on food came in in January, it just smells like people. But apparently commuters prefer that to the smell of "relaxing" melon or "energizing" grapefruit. Those are a couple of the fragrances Vienna's transport authority tried over the past month. The idea was to make subway travel more pleasant and refreshing, by spritzing certain subway cars with pleasant, refreshing odours. Who wouldn't want to feel they were gliding under the city inside a slightly crowded spa? Well, fifty-seven per cent of people it turns out. At least, that's what the survey showed. Maybe they didn't like those fragrances. Or maybe they're just more comfortable smelling each other. But for now, the project is on hold. Which, given the response, seems like a victory for common scents.

[Music: World music]

Part two: El Paso friend, Metallica cougar

El Paso: Friend

Guest: Benjamin Thompson

TS: One shooting followed another, in American cities more than 25-hundred kilometres apart. Early Sunday, a gunman opened fire in downtown Dayton, Ohio. Before that, on Saturday, there was a shooting at a Walmart in El Paso. Andre and Jordan Anchondo are two of the victims of that shooting at the Texas shopping centre. But the couple's two-month-old son survived. And relatives say that's because the baby's mother protected him. Here's Jordan Anchondo's aunt, Elizabeth Terry, speaking with CNN.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH TERRY: They were the light. They were definitely a contribution to this world. They will be missed. Jordan would talk to anybody and everybody. Ahe was every bit of a self-sacrificing mother. And obviously Andre an amazing father. She was the light of our life. She was the jokester. She was the contagious laugh — a smile that could light up the room. And the world can know that two amazing humans were stripped from us. And their babies are left now parentless. But we will do everything in our power to as a family to unite behind them. And continue to remind them of the amazing parents that they had. There is not enough words to… I think the ultimate sacrifice a parent can show of love is obviously shielding your children, which you shouldn't be doing In a Walmart when you're shopping for school supplies.

TS: That was Jordan Anchondo's aunt speaking with CNN. Jordan and Andre Anchondo died, after a gunman opened fire in El Paso this weekend. Benjamin Thompson grew up close to the area where this happened. The 23-year-old went to high school with Andre Anchondo. We reached Mr. Thompson in Lubbock, Texas.

PC: Mr. Thompson, when you hear that relative of Jordan and Andre talking about what they were like, and about them leaving children behind, what are you thinking about?

BENJAMIN THOMPSON: It just really hits deep because I don't think there's any other way that it could have been said. From how I knew Andre, that's exactly the person that he was. And the excitement and the love that he had for those kids was out of this world. And I know he would have done anything for them. And he did.

PC: As we heard in that tape, relatives have said Jordan shields her two-month-old-baby when the gunfire broke out. They also said Andre jumped in front of his wife to protect her. And you say that's exactly the kind of guy he was. He would’ve helped anyone.

BT: Yes, absolutely. I was speaking with one of my friends yesterday. We were also hopeful that Andre was going to make it out because no one knew his whereabouts or what had happened with him. After countless hours of not knowing what had happened, we came to the realization that was the guy that he was. He didn't want anyone to get hurt ever.

PC: Does that give you any comfort as you grieve the loss of your friend, and the others who were killed in this terrible shooting?

BT: Yes and no. Like I said, it was the only thing that brought solace to the whole entirety of everything that happened. It was the only thing that was positive out of everything that happened — not that any of it was positive. But the fact that their little boy is alive is amazing. That child is a ray of light in everyone's eyes, and has always been, and will continue to be because of them.

PC: You said you've been talking with friends. You'd known him since you were in high school, and so tell me about him? Tell me more than what his relatives said. Tell me what kind of guy he was like.

BT: He was just an upstanding guy. I remember there was one time we're at this social event together, and I was kind of parted from my group of friends, and kind of alone and lost in the crowd. And I didn't really know Andre at the time, and he sort of reached out for me and gave me somewhere to be and someone to talk to and friends to be around. And that was just the kind of guy that he was.

PC: And what other stories are you and his friends sharing in the last couple of days?

BT: Just how tragic it is that he had turned his life around in a complete 180. And when he met Jordan, it was his, I guess you could say lifeline, second opportunity at life. Because ever since he met her, like I said, he turned his life around. He started his own business, built his house with his own two hands, and worked countless hours. You could see how hard he was trying — and really showed. it was devastating that it happened to him because Saturday, the day of, they’re supposed to have a housewarming party with their friends and family. He was just so involved in everything — especially with Jordan's two little girls. He accepted those two little babies as his own. And when I spoke with Andre, he was always just so happy about having his family, and how he wanted a child of his own. And I remember the day that he told me about him finally finding out that he was going to have a child of his own. That was I can tell you to be single-handed best day of his life, obviously up until he was able to hold that child for the first time. That's kind of what we spoke about. That was just how positive and radiant he was in everyone's life.

PC: You know El Paso well. You grew up near the shopping centre where the shooting took place, didn't you?

BT: Yes. It was about 15 to 20 minutes away. And it's somewhere that we frequented quite often when I was living down there.

PC: Given that this took place somewhere you breathing well, where you'd hung out, and now you've lost a friend, what else are you feeling today?

BT: Um, I want to say love and positivity because no matter how hard this man tried to tear us down and bring our community apart, everyone banded together. And that's El Paso — that is our community, our people. It's just it's extremely tough to try to wrap my mind around someone wanting to do that to my home, our home.

PC: I can't imagine.

BT: Just because of our background and our nationality and how diverse our home is.

PC: I wish you strength and resilience in the face of all of this. And I thank you very much for letting us get to know your friend just a little bit, as you remember him. Thank you.

BT: Thank you.

TS: That was Benjamin Thompson speaking about Andre Anchondo, one of the victims of the shooting in El Paso this weekend. We reached Mr. Thompson in Lubbock, Texas. If you'd like to see some pictures of the Anchondo family, we've posted them to our website. It’s: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Khmer Rouge

TS: He was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of Cambodians. Nuon Chea was the chief ideologist for the Khmer Rouge. During the 1970s, the communist revolutionaries killed almost indiscriminately. By the end of their reign, almost a quarter of the population was dead. Nuon Chea was only prosecuted decades later. He died in custody yesterday, at the age of ninety-three. When Nuon Chea was first put on trial in 2011, along with three other regime leaders, only one person — a jailer known as Comrade Duch — had been convicted. That's when freelance journalist Guy Delauney spoke to some of those hoping to hold the Khmer Rouge leaders to account. In his piece we aired on As It Happens at the time, you'll also hear the voices of monks at a memorial for the dead; the cry of a woman who lost a relative; a traditional "smote" singer lamenting the dead; and a court interpreter translating the indictment against the four.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Murder, torture and religious persecution. Planning, instigating, ordering.

ANDREW CAYLEY: I'm Andrew Cayley. I'm the International co-prosecutor of the Khmer Rouge tribunal in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

SPEAKER: Aiding and abetting from 1975 — the 17 of April through the 6th of January, 1979.

AC: It will be the largest and most complex international criminal prosecution since Nuremberg. Over 1.8 million people perished during the time period. They obviously perished in more than one place. They perished in thousands of places. So the level of criminality — the level of criminal conduct — is extremely high, very varied, geographically widely dispersed throughout the country.

[Sound: a whimpering cry and a blaring police radio]

AC: If you take just the one place — which was S21 security camp in Phnom Penh, that camp was actually part of a network of literally hundreds of camps all over the country doing the same thing. Well in that place, 15000 people were murdered — including: women and children. These people were tortured. They were forced to make false confessions. They never underwent any kind of criminal trial — a place of absolute horror and despair for anybody who ended up there. So we're talking about crime on an absolutely massive level.

[Sound: A smote]

SPEAKER TWO: I am the president of the Cambodian Center for Human Rights. In the beginning, including myself, I think all of us look at the process and seeing the paperwork, seeing the negotiation, I don't we would pay much attention until the conviction of Duch.

SPEAKER THREE: The chamber finds [name] guilty.

[Sound: A smote]

SPEAKER THREE: We have grave concerns, in light of the many years which have passed since the crimes have been committed. And also, in light of the old age of these defendants, we’re trying apt octogenarians. These four individuals are: 79, 82, 84 years old, and they are in poor health. And so there are grave concerns that at least two of the four senior Khmer Rouge leaders will not lived through the completion of the tribunal.

[Sound: A smote]

TS: That piece by freelancer Guy Delauney first aired on As It Happens in 2011. Senior Khmer Rouge leader Nuon Chea was convicted of crimes against humanity in 2014, and of genocide in 2018. He died in custody yesterday, at the age of ninety-three.

[Music: Horns!]

Metallica cougar

Guest: Denise Gallant

TS: It's not a call Denise Gallant ever thought she'd get. A couple weeks ago, Ms. Gallant encountered a cougar while walking her dog on Vancouver Island. Flash forward to last Friday — and she's on the phone with Metalica frontman James Hetfield. To explain how those two things are even remotely related, we reached Ms. Gallant in Chemainus, B.C.

PC: Ms. Gallant, what did you think when you saw you were getting a call from California?

DENISE GALLANT: [slight laugh] Well, my first thought was that it was another radio station. And because I was at work, I wasn't going to answer it. I thought you know I've done about nine interviews today, so I'll just let this one go whoever it is. And my boss said well, it's California. Go ahead, answer it. So I answered it. [laughs]

PC: And who was on the other end of the line?

DG: Well, there's this voice, and he says hi, Denise Gallant, this is James Hetfield of Metallica — like he needed an introduction. [laughs]

PC: Okay, so that suggests to me that you're a huge Metallica fan.

DG: I have been for many, many years. Yes.

PC: Okay, so hi, it's James Hetfield from Metallica. Did you believe him when he said that's who he was?

DG: I said how do I know that's really you? [PC and DG laugh] And he said you can either just trust me or I guess you could ask me anything you want. But I could tell you the more he was talking I could tell by his voice that it was really him. And I said I'll just trust you.

PC: Okay, let's go back to why James Hetfield was calling. Take us back to a couple of weeks ago, you were out walking your dog, I believe it's a husky retriever, out on a logging road in Duncan, British Columbia. And what happened?

DG: It was kind of evening dusk, and I felt like I was being watched. And I just started looking around. And I looked over to my right, and there was a cougar stalking me. And he was just coming towards me with his head down, kind of a low crouched crawl that they do. And I was you know not expecting that. And I thought this was pretty cool. And I wasn't scared at first because I thought it was pretty exciting. And then he was coming towards me. And so I put my arms up and waved my arms to make myself look big like they say you're supposed to do. And it didn't make a difference. And so I yelled at him. I said hey you, stop. And then he stopped. So that's when I took out my video camera and I thought I could start filming him. I figured he was going to hold off for a little while on eating me. And if he didn't, then at least there'd be footage of it.

PC: [PC and DG laugh] Oh dear!

DG: I videotaped him for a while, until I felt like the intensity wasn't really dissipating. So I thought I'd better do something that scared him a little bit more than my voice. So I went into my iTunes and I put on Metallica's “Don't Tread on Me” — which it ends up worked like a charm.

PC: The cat ran away.

DG: He did. He ran right into the bush as soon as the song started.

PC: Now was that just a random choice? Like was that the top of your playlist or whatever. Or were you like I gotta think of a song that cougars hate?

DG: [laughs] I don't have a playlist of songs that cats hate particularly. [PC and Dg laugh deeply] But yeah, I just thought well, what's a song that's fairly aggressive that sounds like intimidating right in the beginning. And my first thought was Metallica. And I went into my favourites because that's where Metallica is. And I passed “Nothing Else Matters” because it has a slow start to it. And then I saw “Don't Tread on Me” — and I went that's the one.

PC: Okay, so that's the cougar encounter. So how do you go from that to talking on the phone with James Hetfield — again, who is the front man for Metallica?

DG: Well, I put a post on Facebook for my friends showing them the cougar and my encounter in the video. And they were all interested. And then somebody had said you know you should hashtag Metallica in this. And I said I should because I really would love to thank them for saving my life. And so all my friends started doing it, and I started doing it. And before long, I noticed that Kirk Hammett had shared my post.

PC: The guitarist for Metallica is Kirk Hammett, yeah?

DG: Yeah. I was flabbergasted. I was really excited about that. And then on Friday morning, I got a Messenger message from the artist liaison from Metallica saying that they would like my contact information because a band member wanted to reach out to me.

PC: And so then that comes full circle back to your phone call from the James Hetfield — the real one — of Metallica. So after he says hello, this is who I am. And you say I don't know if it's really you, but you decide you you'll believe him. What did the two of you talk about?

DG: We just we talked a bit about Vancouver Island. We talked about California. We talked about dogs. Yeah. And then after the conversation was over, he texted me a photo of himself giving the devil horns, and he said thought you might want confirmation that it's really me. [laughs]

PC: So there was the proof.

DG: Yeah.

PC: Well, it has been lovely to talk to you. And I look forward to talking with you again when you tell me about your what was it… songs that cats hate playlist.

DG: My playlist that cats hate.

PC: We will curate one together. Thank you very much.

DG: Thanks. Take care.

TS: That was Denise Gallant. We reached her in Chemainus, on Vancouver Island, British Columbia.

[Music: Hip-hop]

FOA: Deepak Obhari obit

TS: Deepak Obhrai was the longest-serving Conservative Member of Parliament in the House of Commons. On Friday, that service came to an end. Mr. Obhrai died, not long after a diagnosis of liver cancer. He was 69 years old. Mr. Obhrai came to Canada from Tanzania in 1977. Twenty years later, he was elected to Parliament as a member of the Reform Party. He would represent the riding of Calgary East — now Calgary Forest Lawn — for the next 22 years. In 2016, he ran for the Conservative leadership. And though he was eliminated on the first ballot, Mr. Obhrai played an important role in the contest. As the only immigrant, he strongly pushed back on fellow candidate Kellie Leitch's proposal for a "Canadian values test" for all potential Canadians. From our archives, in 2016, here's Deepak Obhrai in conversation with our regular host, Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

DEEPAK OBHRAI: This country was built by immigration. USA was built by immigration. So immigration has been completely a positive thing any country has the strength for that country. Yet, we have seen this negativism going onto the fears of what somebody feels on immigration.

CAROL OFF: Okay, Kellie Leitch is saying because it’s not defined what these anti-Canadian values are or how they'd be screened. But she has said that anti-Canadian values would be: violence, misogyny, a lack of acceptance of our Canadian tradition of personal and economic freedoms, intolerance. What's wrong with those values?

DO: But those values are not Canadian values. They are world values everywhere. When immigrants come here, they already have those values, you know? Now you're trying to define something by saying those are Canadian values as well as you are just saying. Those are international values. Those are values most immigrants already following them at their own homes, you know? There's nothing new about Canada or Canadian values — which is why everybody is having difficulty about a Canadian value. A Canadian value should be what is in the Charter of Rights, you know? The right for religious freedom, you know? The right to speak, the right to the press, and all your basic rights. That is a Canadian value which is not in many countries. But being anti-violent, being anti you know abusing women everything, these are these are values which are universal.

CO: But Kellie Leitch's chief of staff has said that he points out that he believes there are a majority of Conservatives that go along with this idea. He points there's a 2011 survey he points to that says that a majority of Canadians — a large majority of Canadians — believe that newcomers should adopt Canadian values. And that within the party itself, has been support for these kinds of things in the past. I mean isn't this from a political point of view, can you see why Kellie Leitch thinks this might be a good idea?

DO: No, no, no, I disagree. I'm a Conservative too. I’m in the Conservative Party for 20 years. I am one of the longest serving Conservative Members of Parliament. That is not what the Conservative Party… there is an element that that is in there that they're catering to. But that does not form the basis of the Conservative Party. My supporters and those who are coming here are not both kind of basis that they look at. They look at the immigration as a positive factor, and they want to send a positive message. This message which we sent out about this these barbaric practices and all this, the hotline I mean these are wrong kind of messages that they're going to the general public. It’s one of the reasons why we lost the election.

TS: That was then-Conservative Party leadership candidate Deepak Obhrai, speaking with Carol in 2016. Mr. Obhrai died on Friday, after 22 years as a Member of Parliament. He was 69 years old.

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August 6, 2019 episode transcript

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