Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for March 22, 2019

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello I'm Susan Bonner, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

SB: After Robert Mueller delivers his long-awaited report on Russian election interference -- we ask a former federal prosecutor what comes next.

JD: She thought he was there to pray. A worshiper describes how a man with a blade rushed forward in her church. He stabbed the priest who was saying mass at Montreal's St-Joseph Oratory.

SB: Flight risked. An airline attendant says she warned that as a Dreamer it might be dangerous for her to leave the U.S. even for her job -- now she's in detention after she flew back to the U.S. on a Mexico flight.

JD: Doesn't strike his fancy. A former major league umpire says that baseball just will not be the same should a proposal to speed things up with robots making the calls behind the plate go through.

SB: His do props. A Toronto woman pays tribute to her late father as she prepares to auction off the second-hand collection that he turned into essential props for the film and TV industry.

JD: And blunt advice. Emily Post's great-great-granddaughter updates the original etiquette manual with the modern-day sequel that's focused on the mannerly consumption of marijuana. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that never airs in high society.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Montreal churchgoer vows to pray for injured priest, and the man who stabbed him

Mueller Report

Guest: Mark Osler

JD: It is the document that everyone in Washington has been waiting for with bated breath. U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller has submitted his report on Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. Now it's not clear when or if the entire report will be made public -- but it could implicate President Donald Trump in serious wrongdoing. Mark Osler is a former U.S. federal prosecutor. We reached him earlier today in Los Angeles.

SB: Mr. Osler how high are your expectations -- what's this moment like?

MARK OSLER: Well it's like having a jury out -- in a way. You know that there's information that's out there -- we don't know what it is yet. And so it's a moment of anticipation as much anything else.

SB: Well it's one thing for Robert Mueller's report to be finished and submitted to the Justice Department. What happens now?

MO: Well the Justice Department has some decisions to make. William Barr is going to review it (the Attorney General) and decide to refer it or not to Congress and in what form. Now of course the hope of a lot of people is that it will be submitted in whole to the House and eventually made public so that the American population can know what's in it and what we are dealing with.

SB: In fact in the letter that he sent up to Capitol Hill today he promised that he would be as open and transparent as possible -- and said that he hoped the principal conclusions can be shared with Congress as early as this weekend. What's your reaction to that kind of language?

MO: Well you know it's guarded. You know as much as possible it is a qualification as is talking about you know conclusions but not necessarily the facts that underlie them. And so we're going to have to wait and see. The reason it's so important is because one of the purposes of this report may be Congress evaluating it to decide about impeachment.

SB: Right. But it seemed in his language that he seemed to be sending a signal that there was at least on the part of the Attorney General a commitment to go as quickly as possible. Will Congress be satisfied with that?

MO: I suspect that -- depending on how fast it is you know -- if it's a matter of a few days then they probably will be satisfied. What they're likely to be unsatisfied with -- if it's fast -- is if it's not complete. That is if it's only some bits of conclusions rather than the full analysis. And I think what's going to upset Congress more than timing is probably going to be content.

SB: And let's talk about the content quickly. Robert Mueller has charged many people, there have been indictments against 34 people, three companies, there have been prison sentences on everything from conspiracy against the United States to money laundering. But there was nothing so far on the central question of collusion or conspiracy with Russia. So what are you most eager to see in this report on that?

MO: I am very eager to see that central question answered. And you know to see if we're going to have a yes or no -- that Robert Mueller is one of the most astute investigators we have in the United States and he's not someone who's likely to shade things, so I suspect we're going to hear either there's enough evidence to conclude that there was that kind of collusion or conspiracy or we'll hear that there's not.

SB: But if you're not charging someone with these criminal offenses, under the Justice Department's guidelines how much information can you release about people if you're not prepared to charge them -- if you don't have enough proof to charge them?

MO: That's when the impeachment aspect becomes important because what he's doing in part is preparing a report to Congress to decide if they're going to charge people. So I think it is important in that respect that you know the process of impeachment begins with the House of Representatives deciding whether or not they're going to issue a charge. And that's going to be based probably on what's on the pages of this report.

SB: So we know that reports seem to indicate that the White House got a heads-up that at least the report was delivered. The President is in Florida and reports are that he traveled with his legal team. His legal team has indicated they want to review this before anything is made public. What's your sense of how that will play out?

MO: Well I think that they are going to have to decide how serious this is. You know they'll know what the conclusions are and they'll know what the facts are behind it as well. And we're going to hear them respond the way that we've heard this administration respond before which is that they'll probably try to decide either to say, 'put it out there' -- if it's not incriminating, or if it is to try to change the subject or undermine the credibility of the investigators.

SB: So given that we don't know what's in the report yet. It's a little bit speculative but what kind of an impact do you expect the delivery of this report and the hours and days ahead to have on the President of the United States?

MO: Well it's going to be all consuming to him I think. This is not going to be a time that other areas of national business are going to be dealt with by the President because it's going to be meeting with advisers about the report, about its conclusions, and what they need to do next.

SB: You say it's going to be all consuming for the president. For the country, how would you describe this moment?

MO: Well unlike the president, we don't have the report. So I think it is going to be time of intense speculation where you're going to have a lot of people guessing what's in it, guessing what's not in it, and there's going to be a lot of attempts to spin it as well -- even though we don't know what's there yet.

SB: Okay. And your best guess on how much we will know by the end of the weekend?

MO: I think we won't know much more by the end of the weekend. I would be surprised if information gets out, but I'm willing to be wrong. I do think that within a few weeks we will have substantially more information though.

SB: Well we'll certainly be talking about it and listening to it all. Mr. Osler thank you for your time today.

MO: My pleasure. Thank you.

JD: Mark Osler is a former U.S. federal prosecutor. We reached him earlier today in L.A.

[Music]

Church Stabbing

Guest: Adele Plamondon

JD: It was quiet and peaceful inside Montreal's St. Joseph's Oratory this morning. And then, in a moment, that calm was broken by a man with a blade. Witnesses say the man stormed forward and stabbed a priest. The 26-year-old man has been arrested, and Father Claude Grou was taken to hospital with minor injuries. The Saint-Joseph Oratory is a very well-known place of worship. The mass was being broadcast live online. Adele Plamondon was helping to lead mass this morning when the attack began. We reached Ms. Plamondon in Montreal.

SB: Adele when did you realize that there was something wrong during mass this morning?

ADELE PLAMONDON: When the assailant ran close to the altar in front of me -- taking a knife out of his pocket.

SB: How close was this man to you?

AP: Oh I don't know -- 10-15 feet.

SB: And you could see the knife?

AP: Oh yeah. He took it out of his belt in front of me -- like when he was running towards the priest. And if you have a chance to see the video you will see where the altar is. And I was on the side of the altar because I was doing the reading of the church. So I saw him there. We had just finished singing the psalm, and I saw this man coming in the middle where you could go up to the altar -- where he isn't supposed to go at all. And I thought he was just going to pray -- kneel there and pray. But he did not. So then right away I realized something was wrong because he was not allowed to be there. The mass was being broadcasted live. So only the people that were supposed to be there were allowed to be there. And when he was going up three steps, I saw him pull his jacket and take the big knife out of there and just going for Pere Grou. At that time, I raced out to the sacristy, yelling my head off to attract the security. And he came running out of this office and I said somebody is attacking Pere Grou with a knife. And he raced out and I stayed in the sacristy -- I did not go. So I did not witness the attack itself. Pere Grou came down to the sacristy and then I saw his wounds they seemed to be superficial because there was not profusion of blood.

SB: So you saw him right after the attack -- how did Father Grou seem aside from...

AP: He was able to walk. They walked him out from the church there and they sat him in a chair -- and he was there. He was in shock but he was coherent. He was talking. He was very calm. People were all asking him, are you okay? And he said yes. Are you hurt? (He said) I don't know. We saw a little dot of blood on the side. Oh you've been hurt Father Grou. So then we removed his shirt and his T-shirt. Then we saw the gash there on the side -- on the right side where you would have an appendix. After that the emergency came and all that. And then they discovered that there was more blood under his armpit there. And there was another wound there that we hadn't noticed.

SB: So while Father Grou is being helped with his wounds -- what about the assailant? Where's he at this point?

AP: The guy was surrounded with people and he looked very calm and all that. And I saw people talking to him you know. So when I went back in the church I saw a man that had gone up racing to and he's the one that said I put my hand on his heart and I said peace be with you, calm down. And from what I saw on the video the man was surrounded with people standing up and looked calm. And when I went back in there the man was on the floor with two men holding him down on his chest. And one had his knee on his back.

SB: So Adele some of this you saw with your own eyes, but then you went later and watched the video because the mass is are recorded and streamed online, right?

AP: Every Friday -- actually every day of the week -- the mass is broadcasted live from St. Joseph's Oratory.

SB: Listening to you describe being right there and seeing the assailant and then seeing Father Grou come back with his injuries -- how are you processing that now?

AP: I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Some journalist asked me after, would you go back to the church? Definite. Definitely. So it has got nothing to do with feeling insecure in the church. You can be rammed in the street by some crazy nut, you know, with a car or truck or whatnot. You can be attacked in the metro. And you never know.

SB: How do you feel about a violent attack inside this church that you go to all the time?

AP: Well you know with the feeling of hatred against the church right now I am not surprised. I feel that unconsciously you kind of expect that eventually something like that is going to happen somewhere.

SB: What do you mean when you say all the hatred? What are you referring to?

AP: All the cases on the church right now with the pedophilia and all that, you know. We don't have our head in the sand -- we know what's going on. I pray for the victims every time I go to the mass, every single day.

SB: And for this to happen just one week after the attack at the two mosques in New Zealand, how are you thinking about that?

AP: That's what I mean by hatred. You don't know who-where-when-and-how -- it can be the church, it can be a mosque, it can be on the street. Hatred is in the air. For whatever reason, somebody has got something to gripe against someone. Did this person choose to come out at that time because he knew it was going to be broadcasted live and that's what he wanted like the guy did in Christchurch in New Zealand filming this whole horror there.

SB: What about more security for people who attend mass at St. Joseph's...

AP: What can you do -- there will never be enough security for a nut that wants to commit an atrocity. No, we're not going to put more security. We cannot afford more security. And people find all sorts of ways to sneak by and do their harm they intend to do. So life goes on. I am just thankful to God that Father Grou is okay. And next week I'll be there serving his mass if he is back.

SB: Adele when will you go back to St. Joseph's?

AP: Tomorrow morning.

SB: What's the first thing you'll do?

AP: Thank God for saving Pere Grou. And I will definitely pray for the assailant too because for him to commit something like that God knows what he has suffered.

SB: Adele thank you for talking to us.

AP: You're very welcome.

SB: Take care.

AP: You too.

JD: Adele Plamondon is a parishioner who was inside Montreal's St. Joseph's Oratory this morning when Father Claude Grou was stabbed. Father Grou is recovering. A 26-year-old man was arrested. We have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Movie Prop Sale

Guest: Cora Addison

JD: The Shape of Water, A Handmaid's Tale, Saw. Just some of the movies and shows that would not have necessarily had the same look without the Toronto shop: Addison's Inc. Addison's started as a plumbing salvage warehouse more than 50 years ago. It ended up being an emporium for quirky and hard to find antiquities. And thus, it was a godsend for art directors and prop buyers in the film and television industry. But after the shop's owner-operator, Jim Addison, died in 2017 -- his family decided to wrap up the business, and they are auctioning off all of Mr. Addison's treasures this weekend. Cora Addison is one of his daughters. We reached her in Toronto.

SB: Cora I'm sorry about the loss of your dad, Jim. And I know today's a tough day.

CORA ADDISON: Yeah. It certainly has been a bit overwhelming, but the whole thing is bittersweet. A lot of people are coming to pay their respects today as well as check out all the items that we have for sale. So it's been nice.

SB: Can you describe for people what Addison's looked like inside?

CA: So when you walk in its floor to ceiling. He had a passion for antique plumbing -- there's old faucets, old showerheads, old pedestal sinks. And then there's other oddities just around you know taxidermy, and sculptures, ceramics. He really saw beauty in everything. So there's just so many things.

SB: And even spillage into the backyard -- what did that look like?

CA: Absolutely. So he did a lot of prop rentals -- so often times you know the movies are just looking for an old bath tub that looks a bit rundown or an old stove to put in -- for instance the movie "Saw" like that's kind of what the backyard is. Those kinds of movie props that don't need to be kept in pristine condition.

SB: So you talk about your dad having a fondness for some of these things. Just for example how many bathtubs would you figure he had.

CA: I would say there's probably over 100 tubs here -- antique tubs. I would say he probably had about five to 10 really special ones like very old ones made of wood or we have a tub that is solid copper that's beautiful that's been rented out a number of times.

SB: Why do you think your dad had such a passion for these old things?

CA: You know he started in plumbing and then he became fascinated with antique plumbing and then it spilled over into all antiques and it was mainly -- he didn't want to ever see anything get thrown out. So he would go into an old home and he would take all the light fixtures, all the door knobs, all the locks, all the toilets, all the things. He just had a respect for anything that was not new and you know coming from Home Depot or made of plastic. He really was passionate about you know the way things were made and you know how they were steady in the old days.

SB: And why did he want to hang on to so much of it? Because I understand he was keen to rent a lot of it but he didn't always want to sell it all. Why did he want to hold onto this stuff?

CA: You know he just had an attachment to it because I guess he felt like he had saved it from some fate, and he was kind of collecting it in this space, and he had a vision that his shop was somewhere where you could come and see the way that things used to be and you know respect it.

SB: What are some of the items that made it into some famous movies and TV shows?

CA: So we have the Victorian bed-set that actually used to be in our home. Becky and I (my sister) actually grew up you know sleeping in that bed sometimes. And that was rented out to [inaudible]. We did the tricycle and the fridge from "IT" -- and sink that the blood squirts out of, that's something from the backyard. "The Shape of Water" there was a number of like housewares and the green tub in that movie as well is from here.

SB: What was it like for you to grow up around to all of this stuff?

CA: I mean I felt it was strange when I was younger. Our house was very old and decorated the same way -- a lot of big wooden kind of extravagant furniture. And sometimes I was embarrassed to have my friends over but you know I could recognise even at a young age that it was something special even though there was a canon and cannonballs sitting in the middle of our living room. [Laughs] Now I feel so grateful to have been a part of his life and been able to experience this. I mean I feel that he really is a bit of a legend. And just seeing all the people and everyone coming to pay their respects today...I'm grateful.

SB: I understand that you want to be a prop buyer yourself.

CA: Yeah. I mean I'm interested in and I've worked a lot with people in film over the last year and a half and hopefully we'll see how that goes.

SB: Tell me some of the stories that you've heard from some of your dad's customers.

CA: I've had so many interactions with so many people and they all kind of just you know tell me the same thing -- he had a jail cell in the shop, he would take them over to it, he would shut them in there you know. And just like kind of strange but quirky things that he would do. He had a little exercise bike that he would plug in -- but it was very old and it went up and down -- and all of a sudden someone had just come in for a sink and then there on this very old exercise bike. As many things there in here, he knew every little thing. Like someone would come in looking for an old latch for a gate for a film and you know he would just point them to a box underneath a box under a shelf you know and say, oh they're all in there.

SB: Why do you think Addison's became such a go-to for the movie industry?

CA: There were just things here that you simply can't find anywhere else. That's what has been expressed to me. It's just all the little things that he saved -- all the little knickknacks -- when they're trying to recreate an older kind of vibe like there's just not really a place where you can go and get an old pedestal sink or a wall hung toilet these days you know.

SB: So Cora is there something that you're really going to miss when it's sold?

CA: You know today as much as it's like a positive experience that were having the auction -- I feel like it's also a loss and a loss for the city as well and that will be what I miss -- is just being able to come in here or having other people in the city be able to come in here and enjoy the space.

SB: Well good luck with the auction.

CA: Thank you so much.

SB: Thanks for your time.

JD: Cora Addison is one Jim Addison's daughters. Ms. Addison at the family store in Toronto. And if you would like to see some photographs of that warehouse you just heard a bit about ans the special objects there -- those are on our website as well: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Higher Etiquette

JD: "Excuse me?" That is what Jimi Hendrix so very politely asked while he kissed the sky. And while there is some disagreement about whether Mr. Hendrix's "Purple Haze" was related to a marijuana fog, there is no doubt that our own cannabis cloud at times could do with a little of Jimmi's decorum. And who better to instruct us on the P's and Q's of purple kush and proper sharing of the shatter than a proud descendant of Emily Post? Ms. Post's 1922 guide "Etiquette" was the Bible for best behaviour. And now her great-great-granddaughter, Lizzi, has put together "Higher Etiquette" a reference guide for the modern age. It is packed with drug related do's and don'ts. Do, for example, put out finger bowls when you're passing around the joints -- they will allow guests to manage burns without resorting to their tongues. Please also do label any cannabis infused snacks. This is not just to avoid unintentional ingesting. Ms. Post for example puts a sign up for "African Queen macaroons" and that promises a quote "positive and relaxing head-high." Please do not however hit a blunt more than 3 times before passing it on. And absolutely do not mow the lawn. This applies when passing around a pipe and it means you shouldn't apply the flame to all of the greenery at once. Instead you should quote, "corner the bowl," burning just a smidgen before passing it on. All of which leaves me wondering whether Ms. Post would judge us harshly if we had the munchies.

[Music]

Part 2: This flight attendant was told it was safe to fly to Mexico — then she got detained by ICE

Flight Attendant

Guest: David Watkins

JD: Selene Saavedra Roman wanted to fly. But now the flight attendant is being held in a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement detention centre. Ms. Saavedra Roman was brought to the United States as a child. She is not a U.S. citizen, but she is a so-called DREAMer -- therefore it was illegal for her to take a job at Mesa Airlines in the United States. But she was worried about what would happen if she were to leave the country. Then the company assigned her to a flight bound for Mexico. David Watkins is Selene Saavedra Roman's husband. We reached him in San Antonio, Texas.

SB: Mr. Watkins when is the last time you saw your wife?

DAVID WATKINS: Two days before she was detained we were in San Francisco -- February either 10 or 11 because she was definitely picked up on February 12.

SB: How is she doing in the immigration detention centre?

DW: To be perfectly honest, not the best. I had a conversation with her this morning and she honestly just sounds distraught and worried and depressed. It is definitely starting to get to her. You know at first I think she was kind of hopeful, but as time has gone on her hope is diminishing for sure.

SB: Take us back to when she was detained. What happened?

DW: The last text message that she sent me was, "Help I'm being detained. Please contact a lawyer." And I texted back and I said, "what?" And then they took her phone away from her, and I didn't hear back from her again for another -- I don't want to say -- like eight hours maybe. They kept her in customs for 24 hours. And after the 24 hour period she was transferred to the Conroe detention centre.

SB: And what was she told about why she was being detained?

DW: That she didn't have the proper paperwork to enter the country.

SB: This was something she was worried about before she took this flight.

DW: Yes definitely. 100 percent. She had placed Mexico and Canada on her no-fly list. And when the flight came up because a computer randomly generates I guess the assigned flights, she got in touch with her mentors and her supervisors and said, "Hey I'm pretty sure that I can't go." By the end of it they said no-no-no, you're perfectly fine to go. And the day of she called her in-flight supervisor in Houston and said, "Hey I'm pretty sure that I can't leave. I'm almost positive that I'm not allowed to." Three supervisors down the line and they said, no -- you're perfectly fine to go. Don't worry about it. Mesa (Airlines) has released an official statement saying that it was an admin error. I mean I really don't know how it happened or how they thought it would be okay but they must have just overlooked everything. And because she has DACA she is legally allowed to work. She has a Social Security number and she pays taxes. But it doesn't let you -- I guess -- it doesn't let you leave the country without like an initial approval.

SB: So this was her first time leaving the U.S.?

DW: Yes ma'am.

SB: How did she come to live in the U.S.?

DW: She was brought here when she was 3-years-old. And she honestly doesn't remember the story because she was three. And she's just been in Texas ever since.

SB: But she's on track to become a U.S. citizen?

DW: Yes ma'am. It's a three-stage process I believe. We have completed the first step. And we probably had about a year and a half less before you know we could really have a serious conversation about citizenship. But then this happened.

SB: If she's a DACA recipient and she's on this path to citizenship -- why has she been detained?

DW: I don't know -- to be perfectly honest. You know the first time I talked to her and I said you know you should get parole very soon. I'm a U.S. citizen, you've had DACA since 2012 -- I don't know if they're really regarding that whatsoever and they are now waiting on U.S. CIS to make an official statement on revoking her DACA. Because DACA gets rid of deportation. So when you have DACA you can't be deported. But if they take it away then you can.

SB: And in the meantime, describe for us the conditions under which she's being held.

DW: It's a private prison in Conroe, Texas. It's brand new. Like the walls are brand new. The staff is brand new. She's in the minimum security section because she didn't commit a crime. She was literally in her flight attendants uniform when they arrested her. I can only see her once a week for an hour and it is through two inches of glass -- not even allowed to touch her. It's chain link fence and barbed wire.

SB: Why did Selene want to become a flight attendant?

DW: After we get married in 2017 we traveled quite a bit for our honeymoon. I proposed, why don't you just become a flight attendant so we travel for free? You know why not? And for the one month that she did have her job she really really enjoyed it.

SB: I understand that Hillary Clinton has tweeted in the last hour saying it's quote, "an awful story." She's urging people to spread the word. What do you say to that?

DW: I think it's amazing. And I didn't want to upset anything initially. I was trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it has come to my attention and understanding that we are not on the same team and that our goals from my wife are not the same. So I had to do something to save her. I mean I would literally do anything to protect her.

SB: So how do you expect this will be resolved?

DW: I don't know. I know that Sara Nelson who is the president of the AFA which is the lawyer that I was talking to who is on the case -- she is responsible. She has a large part in ending the government shutdown. She told Trump that you know if TSA can't work then we can't fly so you need to do something about it. She's a very very powerful strong intelligent woman. So I'm really happy that I have her in my corner. You know it was an airline that put her there so I guess the union that represents airlines is going to try to help her.

SB: And if Selene is deported to Peru what will you do?

DW: I'll go to Peru. I'll just go to Peru. And I currently run a small home health company that specializes in autistic care and disability care -- so I take care of the disabled community here in Texas. And I don't think my master's degree is going to mean anything in Peru. So I'm probably going to have to start all over, but that's fine. Because if I can't be with my wife then what's the point. But it is definitely a concern you know. But I told her specifically no matter what happens like it's fine, we'll just be together -- like who cares? It doesn't matter where we live. It is still a concern. Even with all of this media and social pressure and political pressure like the decision is not up to me -- it's up to administrative agencies that kind of just do whatever they want. So yeah that's my situation.

SB: I understand, and I wish you luck with the case.

DW: Thank you so much.

SB: Thanks for your time. Goodbye.

DW: Thank you. Bye.

JD: David Watkins is in San Antonio, Texas. He is fighting for the release of his wife, Selene Roman, from immigration detention. And we have more on this story as well on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Delhi Rape Show

Guest: Richie Mehta

JD: It was a horrific assault that enraged people in India -- and around the world. In 2012, 23-year-old Jyoti Singh was raped on a bus by a group of men in New Delhi. She died from her injuries. Now a new Netflix drama looks at what happened in the aftermath of that crime, and follows the investigating officers race to find the men who did it. "Delhi Crime" is out today. It was created by Canadian filmmaker Richie Mehta. We reached Mr. Mehta on the streets of Mumbai. And a warning: some of the details in this interview are disturbing.

SB: Mr. Mehta what was it about this crime that made you decide to write the show?

RICHIE MEHTA: I was in Delhi when it happened in 2012. And I mean look we all know what the crime is now, and it is as incomprehensible hearing it today as it was at the time. The only difference was you were not sure what you were hearing -- it was unfolding in a manner which seemed nonsensical because it is "how can one human being do this to another person?" And then the rumors start to become facts, and you realize this is true -- this has happened. And so all those complex emotions are inside you. And that doesn't mean make a film out of it. Certainly for me it was not the case -- I had no intention of doing anything about it. However I had a family friend in the Delhi Police -- I met with him and he had seen my previous films and he suggested I make a project on this. I told him that I didn't think it was appropriate at all. And he said why don't you read the verdict (of) sentencing these six people to death. And then he said, I will introduce you to the cops involved in this investigation now. And I did that -- just intriguing to me. I was trying to grapple with it. And as I met the cops I started to get to know them. And really started to see their point of view on this -- especially the female officers.

SB: Can I take you back to the crime? For people who don't remember and you don't have to go into too much detail. But tell us what happened to Jyoti Singh.

RM: A couple -- Jyoti and her boyfriend had gone to see a movie on a Sunday evening. And as they emerged around 8:30 p.m. they tried to take a rickshaw back to their home, but the rickshaw wouldn't take them all the way. So the rickshaw dropped them off at a bus stand. They went to the stand, they got a bus, they got on. And as soon as the bus left there was six guys hanging out in the bus -- near the driver's area -- they (the couple) got attacked by the six guys. And long story short, he was beaten -- and she was brutally gang raped and then dismembered with an iron. And then dismember by one of the perpetrators with his hand. So she was basically ripped apart.

SB: And you were there when this story happened -- when the crime happened. And you were initially reluctant to tell Jyoti's story. Why was that?

RM: It's the same kind of thing, I suppose, post-9/11. You know this incredibly traumatic and dramatic event happens and you're observing it -- if you're not directly involved. The first thing is not, "oh, I can make a movie." You don't have anything to say about it. You don't have anything to say about anything. You're just trying to figure it out. I just landed into it over time.

SB: "Delhi Crime" actually begins after the rape, and by following the investigating officer on the case as she searches for the men who did it. What story are you telling with the program?

RM: I am telling the story of how the Delhi Police mobilized after this crime because of the reaction of the female deputy commissioner. She was the first year officer called to the hospital and it was based on her reaction not as a cop but as a person and as a woman as she mobilized the entire force to do something that was super human -- which was to catch these six guys in five days having no information about them whatsoever. It spread across all of North India. And she basically moved mountains to make it happen. And in the journey of following this manhunt, it is so vast and so varied and complex that you actually start to explore all the reasons that this happened.

SB: Religious leaders at the time -- even some politicians -- blamed Jyoti herself for what happened to her saying, she shouldn't have been out late at night. And an earlier documentary that was made about the story was actually banned in the country. Where is India now when it comes to the perception of rape victims?

RM: Outside of the general you know being here and observing the day-to-day life and it is still a problem here -- but it's also a problem everywhere. Like I said when you look at the statistics the per capita rape average here is very low, compared to other places in the world. It is a problem of course because of the population density. But because my head has been so immersed in this show -- I literally finished it this morning and now it has gone on the air -- for the last six years I've been immersed in the details of this specific incident and so I can tell you everything about it and what I believe it's about. From the grander perspective, I'm just starting to emerge from this now.

SB: I understand but how do you hope that your series could change attitudes in the country?

RM: My sincere hope is that people will look at law enforcement officials with more compassion and empathy. It's an extremely difficult job and people here are trying to do the best they can with it. And that if it's a systemic issue that people want to address at least approach the people with compassion and then we can start looking forward. The reason I made this seven-hour series, which is basically a seven-hour film, is because I wanted to illustrate how complex situation is. It's not just that this crime happened because of this -- it happened because of this, this, this, and the solution is this, this, this. It is that complicated.

SB: How worried were you that you might be glorifying this horrible crime?

RM: It was a worry for me of course all the way through. It wasn't about glorifying as much as it was you know crossing the line of sensitivity. For example there was no chance I would ever show the crime in any matter, visually or acoustically. That was never an option for me. To me, this is not about evil. It was about the aftermath of evil. It was about the people who are fighting it for us. It's a very, very, very tricky line to walk all the way through and it's reflected in everything from the essence of why a scene exists to music or sound design. Everything about it is negotiating this line of: are on the right side of sensitivity?

SB: It's been good to talk to you. I appreciate your time.

RM: Not at all. Thank you.

JD: Richie Mehta is the writer and director of "Delhi Crime". We reached him in Mumbai. We have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih..

[Music]

Baseball Changes

Guest: Bob Davidson

JD: Baseball has a problem. Too many fans no longer want to be taken out to the ballgame. Attendance is down. Games are longer than ever. And so Major League Baseball has been floating ideas for change: including trying out robot umpires. Yes. Robots are being tested behind the plate in the minor leagues making calls on balls and strikes. But for baseball purists, the old ball game must be preserved. Bob Davidson was a Major League Baseball umpire for 30 years. We reached Mr. Davidson in Denver.

SB: Mr. Davidson why is baseball getting slower and some would say more boring?

BOB DAVIDSON: Well I think that's just people's opinion -- in my opinion. You know baseball has survived the last 100 years being the way it is, and I'm just not a big fan of all the rule changes that they are going to do to it. I think if you love baseball it's great with the strategies and with everything else. No, it's not hockey. I mean I'm a big hockey fan -- and you know it is not as fast as hockey. But you know it's baseball. And that's just the way the game is and it is the way game has been.

SB: What do you think of the major league being involved in this trial that would put robot umpires in position to do the job you did for 30 years -- calling balls and strikes?

BD: Yeah probably a lot better. No -- I don't know. I think it's ridiculous. You know Susan I was on the field once when Ozzie Smith had two errors in one inning. If the human element of the game -- I think the replay that they had now is enough. I would hate for them to take the balls and strikes out of the plate from umpire's hands.

SB: Don't most umpires hate being behind home plate calling every pitch? Wouldn't this relieve them of what's been called a thankless job?

BD: Some guys might. But I think most of the guys love the challenge. I know I did. I like working to plate better than any other place because you know the game went by faster. Every pitch you got to be in the game. But I think the majority of them you know like working the plate.

SB: Well you know better than anyone that some coaches and even managers will argue with the umpire on the field and that takes up game time and we've been talking about how a slower game is part of what the league is trying to address here. So if you can't argue with a robot, do you think this might speed up the game?

BD: Well they'll find someway -- somebody will take a bat and smack the machine or something. And you know it's never the hitter's fault for being called not on strikes -- and [inaudible] you know the umpire or in this case a robot. I hope the thing fails and I just hope we go back to baseball the way we all know it.

SB: What was it like for you arguing with managers?

BD: I loved it.

SB: You loved it?

BD: Oh yeah. I mean you know a good argument is good for the game...

SB: Good for the fans?

BD: Oh the fans love it. You know I remember John Gibbons the former manager up there in Toronto -- a good guy. And you know I threw him out of a game and you know we went nose-to-nose in Toronto. And the fans gave him a standing ovation when he's leaving. No -- the fans love it. It's like in hockey Susan -- they all love a good fight. Baseball's no different. A good manager-umpire argument is good.

SB: So you couldn't get that with a robot.

BD: No. You're not going to get that with a robot. I hope this thing fails, and I just hope we go back to baseball the way we all know it.

SB: What about some of the other changes that are being proposed for 2019 and 2020 -- rule changes to speed up the game including reducing the number of times coaches can visit the mound, ensuring a pitcher faces at least three batters. What do you think of those proposals?

BD: Well I like the idea of limiting the -- as of last year the manager could go to the mound six times during a game. I think they are reducing it to five this year and four next year. What I don't like is the relief pitcher having to face three hitters because I think that takes a lot of the strategy out of baseball. And you know a lot of managers are very good at lefty-righty. Yeah the pitcher comes out of the bullpen and takes time, but again, Susan that's baseball and that's just the way it is.

SB: Is there anything that Major League Baseball isn't trying that you think should be tried to make the game more exciting for fans?

BD: No. I think the game is exciting the way it is. In my opinion I wish the shirts and ties and suits that are a Park Avenue in New York in the Major League Baseball office would just leave the game alone. It's a great game the way it is. My opinion is they are going to screw it up. So hopefully they'll just leave it alone. Hopefully this thing in the minor league will fail.

SB: Can I ask you -- what was the longest at bat that you ever umpired?

BD: I don't know longest at bat. I remember I worked a game in St. Louis that went 21 innings. Plus we had a rain delay -- didn't get off the field till about three o'clock in the morning. That is probably the longest game that I remember being involved in.

SB: How did the fans feel about that one?

BD: Well when game ends there might have been six people left in the ballpark.

SB: And I guess this is where you're going to tell me "that's baseball" again.

BD: That's baseball Susan. Just like talk-radio -- I mean you know what, it's like putting a robot next to you. You know? I mean you know you certainly don't want to see that -- so I'm hoping that the game will weather this storm and we'll be good.

SB: Well Bob Davidson, it was good to talk to you. Enjoy the season.

BD: Well I'm retired now so baseball's coming and hopefully everybody enjoys it themselves and hopefully there at the Rogers Centre they have a great year.

SB: Thanks for your time. Good to talk to you.

BD: Take care. Bye bye.

JD: Bob Davidson was a major league umpire for 30 years. We reached him in Denver.

[Music]

Reading: Suzanne

JD: Beginning on Monday, five people will champion their books of choice on Canada Reads. Gilmore Girls actor Yanic Truesdale is hoping his pick will be the chosen one. It is "Suzanne" written by Anais Barbeau-Lavalette. The book is a fictional take on the life of French-Canadian artist Suzanne Meloche, who was Ms. Varbeau-Lavalette's maternal grandmother. Ms. Meloche was a ghost to her entire family after she abandoned her husband and children and then later refused to meet her grandchildren including on Anais. Here is Ms. Barbeau-Lavalette's translator, Rhonda Mullins, reading from the novel's opening pages.

SOUNDCLIP

RHONDA MULLINS: The first time you saw me, I was one hour old. You were old enough to have courage. 50 maybe. It was at St. Augustine Hospital -- I had just come into the world. I already had a big appetite. I drank her milk like I make love now -- like it's the last time. My mother had just given birth to me. Her daughter. Her first born. I imagined you entering the room, your face round like ours. Your dark eyes heavily lined in coal. You enter unapologetically. Walking competently even though it has been 27 years since you last saw my mother. Even though 27 years ago you ran away leaving her there teetering on her three year old legs. The memory of your skirts lingering on her fingertips. You walked calmly toward us. My mother's cheeks are red. She is the most beautiful thing in the world. How could you just walk away? How did you not perish at the thought of missing her nursery rhymes? Her little girl lies. Her loose teeth. Her spelling mistakes. Her laces tied all by herself. Then her crushes. Her nails painted then bitten. Her first rum and cokes. Where did you hide to avoid thinking about it? Now there is her, there is you, and between you there is me. You can't hurt her anymore because I'm here. Does she hold me out to you or do you reach your empty arms toward me? I end up near your face. I fill the gaping hole in your arms. My newborn eyes searched yours. Who are you? You leave again. The next time I see you I'm 10-years-old. I am perched at the third floor window. My breath melting the lacy frost on the pain. [Inaudible] is white. On the other side, a woman falters her long coat no longer enough to protect her. Some things children can guess and even though I don't know you I sense you in this waltz of hesitation. You crossed the street in long strides, your toes barely landing. A water spider. You dart, you head toward us, leaving no trace of yourself on the ground. You slide a small book into the mailbox before slipping off yet again. But right before you disappear, you look at me. I promise myself, I will catch up with you one day.

JD: That was Montreal translator Rhonda Mullins reading from the opening pages of Anais Barbeau-Lavalette's novel, Suzanne.

[Music]

Part 3: As China stops buying any Canadian canola, a farmer tells us farmers feel like they've caught in the middle of an international diplomatic spat they didn't ask for

Canola Producer

Guest: Ian Chitwood

JD: China is sending a clear message to Canadian farmers: keep your canola -- we don't want it. Today, Canada's canola industry group confirmed that Chinese importers have stopped buying any of the grain from Canadian producers. This move comes after Chinese customs refused to accept canola from one of Canada's biggest suppliers earlier this month. At the time China said they suspected that it was infested with insects. Many others suspect the rejection has more to do with the international diplomatic spat over the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver. Ian Chitwood farms canola near Airdrie, Alberta. And that's where we reached him.

SB: Mr. Chitwood how much of a blow is this to you and your crop?

IAN CHITWOOD: You know potentially this could be very difficult for us -- you know as an industry as a whole and as a producer because creating this sort of instability in such a large export market is almost definitely going to put negative pressure on prices for canola.

SB: So you're losing one market and this could drive down the price if you can even find another one?

IC: And that's just it. There really is no good alternative market at this point.

SB: And I know that as a farmer you have to plan your crops in advance -- you're coming up on planting season. So how does this latest move by China affect your long term plans?

IC: Yeah it really puts us in a precarious position because farmers have made their crop input choices already. We purchased seed, purchased fertilizer, and we are gearing up to be going out to fields in southern Alberta. They're going to be going out in a matter of a couple of weeks in and around our area. It's going to be about five weeks out. But not enough time to change our plans to change our rotations. And we're going to be kind of handcuffed at this point.

SB: And prices have already been low. So how much more of a challenge is this?

IC: This is part of the anxiety that producers are experiencing right now because we don't know where the bottom for this is going to be. Prices like canola have been dropping since July. You know we lost about 70 dollars a tonne. And you know with this instability, it could go lower. And it's very worrying because canola is one of the products that we rely on you know for our profitability.

SB: And you talk about instability but let's be clear -- Canada exports 40 percent of its canola seeds to China.

IC: Yes correct. 40 percent of our seeds worth about two point seven billion dollars.

SB: So China had initially claimed there were quality problems with a shipment of canola coming from Canada. But I know that many farmers, many industry watchers, now believe that this has more to do with an international political dispute over the arrest of the Huawei executive. What do you think about why China is targeting Canada?

IC: You know I think that as producers we take a great pride in producing a high quality product. All of the canola that we ship overseas is inspected by the CFIA. The Chinese have not yet released any reports or any official data showing their findings. There's no way to corroborate that. It's interesting that the timing coincides with what's going on with Huawei and you know we think it's unfortunate that we are being punished in a geopolitical dispute.

SB: Do farmers feel like they're caught in the middle of this?

IC: Largely, yes. It's not new unfortunately. It seems that farmers and agricultural commodities that they produce tend to be easy targets in trade disputes.

SB: What kind of effects will play out on the ground in provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan that people will actually have to deal with an immediate impact?

IC: The biggest impact that we're going to see is going to be a reduction in price which is going to squeeze margins for producers. This is going to be very problematic for cash flow -- you know really detrimental if you don't have any resolution to this going into the fall from marketing our grain.

SB: So what would you like to see the Canadian government do in response to this?

IC: As producers we would like to see the Canadian government take a more proactive role in pressuring the Chinese government to you know provide evidence, to allow our inspectors in. But you know really to come up with a speedy resolution to this and restore some market stability.

SB: When you look at some of the other disputes that have been recently playing out between Canada and China how hopeful are you that there's anything Canada can do to change China's position?

IC: I mean all we can do at this point is rely on the federal government as an industry and we can reach out ourselves but in this sort of dispute you know our hands are tied. You know we are hopeful. You know China is a big market, they buy a lot of canola, they like the product. And so we're hopeful that the Chinese government will continue to purchase from us.

SB: And in the meantime can you just store your canola and wait for this to be resolved -- wait for prices to go back up?

IC: Yes and no. Any time the producers store-in canola that means that they're not going to be benefiting from the cash flow. And so that could harm individual producers if we have to rely on a wait and hold strategy. Canola in a lot of cases can be challenging to store and it's never never a good option.

SB: How long can farmers hold out then?

IC: Well most of the carry out from the fall has been moved. There is still green sitting from last fall that producers are selling to exporters and pressures. We can hold out I guess as long as we have to. But you know every day that goes by with this instability -- it's going to be hard on farmers. And if it goes into the fall it's going to be very hard as the 2019 crop comes off and we're going to be looking for markets in the winter.

SB: Well Mr. Chitwood I wish you luck with this and thanks for talking to us.

IC: Thanks a lot.

JD: Ian Chitwood is a canola farmer. We reached him near Airdrie, Alberta.

[Music]

Joy Milne

JD: Scientists from the University of Manchester and the University of Edinburgh have developed a test to detect Parkinson's disease based on how the patient smells. They've homed in on four compounds that in a particular combination give the skin secretions of Parkinson's sufferers a unique odor. Testing for the small could lead to an earlier diagnosis and thus more effective treatment. The researchers could not have done this without Joy Milne. Ms. Milne is a former nurse. She detected the unusual smell on her late husband before he was diagnosed with Parkinson's. When Carol spoke with Ms. Milne in December of 2017 she asked her to describe that scent.

SOUNDCLIP

JOY MILNE: It's a very heavy, oily, musky smell. It's not like the musk of a plant. It is definitely an animal musk.

CO: When did you finally start to think that this smell, this musky odour that you detected, was somehow related to his disease?

JM: We went to a Parkinson's meeting and we got home and I sat him down and I said to him, we had a cup of tea and I said to him, “Those other people smelled the same as you, in that room.” And he just looked at me and he said “What are you talking about? And I said “The other people who had Parkinson's smelled exactly the same as you.” Now being a doctor he looked at me as if to say ‘well this is strange.’ It was monthly meetings so he says “We’ll have to go back next month.” So we went back next month and there it was, but as I went round the room speaking to people I could tell who was not being controlled and who he was.

CO: And when did doctors, scientists start to discover that you had this ability? I mean, it must have been, they must have thought you were crazy when you told them that you could detect this odour?

JM: Well, my husband and I — with me being a nurse and him being a doctor — we decided not to just blurt it out. We decided to look at the various meetings that were going to be in Scotland, and we looked up to Tilo Kunath and we thought, yes this is the person to actually stand up and say it. And I stood up after his lecture and I said “Why are we not using the smell of Parkinson's to diagnose it early?” There was total silence, and he didn't understand first so I had to repeat it and we soon got into the research.

CO: Did your late husband Les know the work you were doing with Parkinson's research?

JM: He did, he was very, very keen on it. And he made me promise — he knew he was dying — he made me promise that I would do it. He said “Don't let them defeat you. Keep going.”

JD: That was Joy Milne in conversation with Carol in December of 2017. Ms. Milne was in Perth, Scotland. Researchers have now identified the combination of compounds that Ms. Milne was smelling in Parkinson's patients.

[Music]

Pinochet-era Sentences

Guest: Veronica De Negri

JD: Veronica De Negri has been waiting for this day for more than three decades. Yesterday, a judge convicted three former Chilean soldiers in the murder of her son. In 1986, Rodrigo Rojas was a young photographer. He had lived in Canada, and the United States. He and a woman by the name of Carmen Gloria Quintana were beaten, doused in gasoline, and then set on fire in Santiago -- during a nationwide protest against the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet. Ms. Quintana survived. Mr. Rojas died four days later. Ms. De Negri never stopped fighting for justice for her son, and she is a critic of the Pinochet regime. We reached her in Santiago.

SB: Ms. De Negri what was it like when you heard these men were found guilty of murdering your son?

VERONICA DE NEGRI: The sensations were very strange because first when heard it, I jump. Finally you know. And after I hear the charges I was not so happy because in Chile the people is being so abused in terms of the charges that they do with the criminals. So immediately I called my attorney and I said okay we have to appeal. The minimum charge is ten years and a day. And the judge gave that. I'm asking for a definite for life in prison.

SB: Take us back to that day in 1986. What happened to your son?

VERONICA DE NEGRI: He was with a group of people from three different shanty towns. He was not from their -- so he didn't know where to hide himself. So when the different trucks with military people arrive, he just ran in different direction but he didn't know where to hide. And Carmen also was arrested after she saw what was happening to him. So she was arrested and at the moment that she was arrested appeared one of the members of the patrol with a gallon of kerosene. And they doused them with gasoline and they were set on fire.

SB: It was a horrific attack.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: It was horrific. And what I keep saying, this was a crime that was to paralyze the whole country. And it did it. But no just Chile, it was Canada, it was United States where there was a close relation with Rodrigo because Rodrigo was in Canada for three years before I arrived. And Rodrigo was active part of the life of what was happening in Canada and United States because he was a photographer since he was 6 and a half year old.

SB: Your son -- he lived for four days after that brutal attack. Were you able to see him? Were you able to comfort him in any way?

VERONICA DE NEGRI: It was really difficult. First of all let me tell you, I was arrested in Peru. I was in an airplane -- because I was not allowed to return to the country. So I came anyway because I'm a responsible mother when the kid is being hurt, I want to be with him. Yes I was able to do it but I have to fight with so many people to be able to see him for less than 20 minutes. That was what I was allowed to see. And what I saw at that time of Rodrigo -- (he) was not receiving the proper medications.

SB: You were only able to spend 20 minutes with your son?

VERONICA DE NEGRI: Yes. And after two days -- [inaudible] he died. 10 minutes before he died, I was allowed to get in. And in fact he was dead when I got in. But I want him to live so bad that I was doing massage in his sole of his foot -- in order to give life to him...but he was gone. He was gone. So I was never able to say goodbye to him. I was unable to give a hug to him. I wasn't able of anything. No justice still. And you know I'm very happy and I play a very important role in terms of Carmen being safe. I hired a doctor from Massachusetts that arrive just in the moment that Rodrigo died so he was unable to do diagnosis of -- so I asked him to see Carmen and do the diagnosis because I was afraid that she will be the next to be killed.

SB: Carmen is the other activist who was with your son.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: Yes. She had everything from the hospital. Rodrigo, no.

SB: You never stopped fighting for justice for Rodrigo.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: Not just for Rodrigo -- for Rodrigo and Carmen because both of them are victims.

SB: And you helped her.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: Yeah. And in fact I gave a cheque for one million dollars. And I gave a cheque for 30 days. I have the money, but to me what was important that she lives because it was important to prove the crime that the army people committed. And in fact I think I have to tell you is that Pinochet himself (was) involved in this crime. And the only case that he gave a press conference to explain how Rodrigo and Carmen were burnt was this case. Pinochet was never get involved in any other case of his crimes. But I cannot [inaudible] him because of he is dead [inaudible] never had been in charge.

SB: How hopeful are you that your appeals will be successful?

VERONICA DE NEGRI: In Chile you never know because we had a period of international investigation of everything. In fact in this moment that the judge rule -- you have (Jair) Bolsonaro here, you have (Juan) Guaido's wife. You have all the criminals of Latin America here welcomed by the president so the chances of justice with this presidency or with the next presidency are very rare. In practically 30 years no one of the presidents put attention on human rights. Maybe the one that gave the best was the first. But he said justice is possible. He never said that justice would be applied. Never. He said [inaudible] possible.

SB: You didn't give up before -- I don't imagine you'll give up now.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: No. Are you kidding me? I'm not. I'm not because I am fighting the right fight.

SB: Thank you for telling us the story.

VERONICA DE NEGRI: Thank you very much Susan. Goodbye.

JD: Veronica De Negri's son was murdered by Chilean soldiers in 1986. We reached her in Santiago. Yesterday, three soldiers were found guilty of murdering her son Rodrigo Rojas De Negri.

[Music]

Words from around the world

JD: Lovers of the English language -- and I know there are a few listening tonight -- you have reason to celebrate. But we are asking you, please don't be fantoosh. "Fantoosh" is a Scottish word for stuck up -- and it's one of 650 new additions to the Oxford English Dictionary after an appeal for regional terms from around the world. Other contributions from the Scots include "bigsie" for someone with an overblown sense of themselves. And "bam" which means foolish, annoying, or obnoxious. And if you have a problem with that, a frustrated Scot might suggest you shut your "geggie." But that wouldn't be very nice. There are some nicer Scottish offerings too. "Sitooterie" for example is a place to sit to get away from it all. Which if you like you might do in your "chuddies" which are underpants in India. And you certainly be free to lounge in your chuddies out in the "gramadeolas" an Afrikaans-English way of dismissing a region as uncultured and remote. Something that this part of the world is certainly not. As we prove with "bundle buggies" a term the OED says is an almost exclusively Canadian way of referring to those two wheeled shopping carts. What do they call them elsewhere? Finally there is a "bagataway" -- a word that the OED describes as being borrowed from the Ojibwa to describe a single game of lacrosse.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

March 22, 2019 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This