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The AIH Transcript for February 4, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

SAROJA COELHO: Good evening, I'm Saroja Coelho, sitting in for Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

SC: Tonight:

CO: A safe distance. Customers of a Nova Scotia company can't get access to 250 million dollars' worth of cryptocurrency — because the founder just died, and he was the only one with the password to the virtual safe.

SC: Accept one substitute. Canada has officially recognized Juan as the interim president of Venezuela — and his representative tells us how all this support from outside his country is affecting things inside.

CO: The corridors without power. A Brooklyn city councillor describes the inhumane conditions inside a federal jail — where inmates endured almost a week without any electricity.

SC: Fruit punch. An Ontario store owner fends off a would-be robber with a whole bunch of weapons — by which I mean, the only things close at hand: bananas.

CO: As luck would halve it. In scientific terms, it's a "bi-lateral gynandromorphy”. But in birdwatcher's terms, it's a cardinal that's half-male, half-female, with its colours split right down the middle.

SC: And...flippery when wet. Or dry. The point is, whatever the conditions, dozens of elephant seals moved onto a California beach during the government shutdown — and they're not going anywhere.

SC: "As It Happens", the Monday edition. Radio that guesses that beach's fate is sealed.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Quadriga CX client, Brooklyn jail investigation, hybrid bird

Quadriga CX client

Guest: Elvis Cavalic

SC: Canada's largest cryptocurrency exchange is in a tailspin. And its clients have been left wondering if any of their money is salvageable. Last week, Quadriga CX — an online platform where users buy and trade bitcoin — filed for creditor protection in Nova Scotia. That followed the news that the company's 30-year-old founder, Gerald Cotten, died unexpectedly last December in India. Apparently, Mr. Cotten was the only person who had the password, and the recovery key, to 250-million dollars' worth of his customers' bitcoin — which is held in offline, secure storage known as "cold wallets." Elvis Cavalic bought cryptocurrency on Quadriga a few years back. We reached him in Calgary.

CO: Elvis, I know you you were a client of Quadriga. What do you make of the news that the founder is dead, and the company appears to be in serious financial trouble?

ELVIS CAVALIC: Well, it's hard it's hard to say because, for the longest time going back to December, they had kept us in the dark. And we are missing so many details, so at this point, most of what I feel is speculative because we don't have answers.

CO: How much money did you have invested in Quadriga?

EC: Well, for me, I was fortunate enough to not necessarily be invested the initial intent was to buy cryptocurrency for the purpose of using it. And that was way back in 2016, and a bull run happened where the price of crypto started rapidly rising, and I decided to hold it. So ultimately I'm only out of pocket five or six hundred dollars. But the thing is it was worth fifteen thousand dollars. And at one point, it reached thirty thousand dollars. So it certainly feels like I've lost fifteen thousand dollars, right?

CO: Did you attempt to cash in?

EC: I did. I did. And at the end of November or early December, I put in a withdrawal request. At that point, people were still receiving withdrawals, but it was taking sometimes three or four weeks. And I just happened to be one of the people who didn't make that cut off.

CO: But was that before the founder passed away?

EC: Yeah. So we didn't know he passed away. And the unusual thing is that they carried out operations as if nothing was wrong. And only until they went for creditor protection in court did they acknowledge they had no access to this money. Yet, he's been deceased for over a month.

CO: And so this this man, Gerald Cotton, who is the founder of this company, only 30 years old, he was apparently working in India doing charitable work when he died of complications from Crohn's disease, as we understand. And so how is it that nobody can get access to the money in that cryptocurrency?

EC: So the cryptocurrency exchanges are usually held on to different types of wallets. There's the hot wallet, which if you were to compare it to like a store it's like the cash register, it's the float, it's the money needed to carry out the day-to-day interactions with customers. And much like an exchange, the float is the hot wallet. And then the cold storage comparable to a store would be like a safety deposit box or a bank account even, right? It's secure. It's completely offline. And it might need a password or a passphrase. So the cold storage keys or the password or the access to it or the existence of it or the location of it for whatever reason was not left behind with the executive estate, his wife, which to a lot of people is strange because two weeks before his death, he had left a will, leaving a plane, and two houses, and one hundred thousand dollars for the care of his two Chihuahuas.

CO: For two Chihuahuas he left how much?

EC: One hundred thousand dollars.

CO: And all of this was done just before he died?

EC: Two weeks before he died. And yet, I don't want to speculate on whether he died or not because they just feel like that's insensitive considering the fact that he may very well have died. But why wasn't it mentioned in the affidavit with Jennifer? Did he die suddenly? Did he die over a few days? Why wasn't there a conversation had over that if there was a conversation over the dogs two weeks prior?

CO: When you mentioned Jennifer, Jennifer Robertson — who is his wife and she's the executor — and I mean you just alluded to there are conspiracy theories that he is not dead, right?

EC: That is true. A lot of people are speculating that he's not dead. And I think it doesn't really matter if he was to be let's say faking this, that's not something you do unless something really bad happens, right? So I don't think it really changes the game for what's going to happen to our money as much as it just you know gives people peace of mind. But it doesn't really matter.

CO: And we'll make it clear that these rumors or conspiracy theories that he may not did are just unsubstantiated rumors. And it's making his wife quite frustrated. But at the same time, she is saying, which is to your point, that she has no idea what the password is. She has no idea how to get into the system where the 250 million dollars’ worth of cryptocoins seems to be being kept in a cold wallet, as you explained it's called. So that's the unusual thing, right? That there's no understanding… it’s as simple as having a password, or what is it that would get access to that account?

EC: It's more or less that simple, yeah. I mean the big thing is they had a succession plan for the care of his wife and his dogs, but not for the care of one hundred and fifteen thousand clients and 250 million dollars in supposed assets. That is a big question mark that I think everyone is dumbfounded by.

CO: It's all very mysterious, but I guess what it is for people like yourself extremely frustrating?

EC: Yeah, it is because you have these firms who are operating as cryptocurrency exchanges. And because we have no regulation, we more or less have to trust the word of these firms. And there are many solutions to securing customers funds. I mean we have Quadriga, who in the media and other sources is quoted as saying that they take security very seriously, that they have measures, the funds are stored offline. They've always kind of pitched themselves as a reputable firm that you can trust your money with. I was naive enough to think that well what are the odds that someone is playing me, right?

CO: When this happens to people like yourself I mean does it shake your faith in the cryptocurrency system?

EC: I think there is a place for crypto. I think it can hold tremendous value. But I think it has to be coupled with regulation. There has to be certain amount of measures put into place to protect clients. If I'm using it as a payment service to send money to family in Africa, for example, I think that customer should be guaranteed that those funds aren't going to be lost. It's not just an investment purpose. We're talking about customers — people who use it for various different reasons that that until they're protected, there's really like no one wants to make those risks, right? So I think there's a case for it, but I think regulation is required.

CO: All right we will leave it there. Elvis, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EC: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

EC: Bye.

SC: Elvis Cavalic purchased bitcoin through Quadriga CX in 2016. He lives in Calgary. Quadriga, Canada's largest cryptocurrency market, says it is unable to access 250-million dollars’ worth of bitcoin purchased by clients. Its founder, Gerald Cotten, was the only person with a password to the funds — and he died in December of last year. For more on how this could've happened, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Brooklyn jail investigation

Guest: Jumaane Williams

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: The sound of prisoners in a New York jail banging on windows, and not a drawbridge being lowered.]

SC: That is the sound of inmates at a federal jail in Brooklyn, New York banging against the windows of their cells. For nearly a week, the Metropolitan Detention Center was virtually without power or heat after an electrical fire — even as the temperatures in Brooklyn plummeted to minus-16 degrees celsius. Then, yesterday — after days of protests — the lights came back on.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: People cheering about the return of electrical power]

SC: People cheering outside the facility, last night. Today, defense lawyers filed a lawsuit, alleging that conditions in the jail were a "humanitarian crisis'. And the U.S. Department of Justice says it will investigate. Jumaane Williams is a Brooklyn city councillor who visited the jail over the weekend. We reached him in Brooklyn, New York City.

CO: Councilman Williams, what are conditions in the prison today as far as you know?

JUMAANE WILLIAMS: Well, there has been some progress. We know that light and heat on are all for the most part restored. But we do know that restoration only brings it back to a level that apparently were inadequate even before this crisis struck. Families still haven't been allowed inside — that's a critical point as well — just to make sure that people are well. On Saturday, folks hadn't taken a shower in three days, and they were locked down for 40 hours. So, hopefully, that's changed. And once people get inside, they’ll be able to tell us.

CO: What else did you see when you visited on the weekend?

JW: The most disturbing part was the lack of urgency that the warden seemed to have of creating a plan to deal with the situation. And that was evidenced by he just said oh, the contractor’s coming back on Monday. No real plan to see if we can find another contractor. They had no plan to get information out to the loved ones to let people know that they were ok. It just was not there at all for people who hadn't spoken to our loved ones in over a week. I had people that I saw, one person had an eye infection, another one hadn't seen a psychiatrist in days, and we had to connect them with someone there. I'm hoping they receive what they needed. I took my names I could to contact people's families. And one of the best evidence of this was one of the Congress members asked the one about cpap machines — what happens if people wore cpap? You know they can really be harmed without the machines. And the response was simply we didn’t think about that.

CO: I mean how much of the jail was actually without heat, without power? What actually were the those conditions?

JW: From my understanding, most of the jail — if not all at some point — was out. I would say there was intermittent and inconsistent heat. There were at least one or two people who complained that their cell was too hot. And then there was some that were inadequate. And then apparently, during the day, it would be on and kind of just fade out as we go into the night, which is the time that you need it at the most. It is an incredible issue where people didn't seem to take it as seriously as it needed to be. The humanity of folks didn’t seem to recognized.

CO: And what about the electricity?

JW: Same thing with the electricity. But electricity is what cause a lot of it. Because there’s no electricity, there’s no lights, they had trouble with the heating, and people were unable to contact their loved ones to let them know that they were ok.

CO: There was an extraordinary scene outside the jail wasn't there over the weekend, when the family members came down to try and learn what was going on. They hadn't heard from there their family members inside. And there was this conversation, this communication, between those outside was with a megaphone, asking questions, calling to them to see if they're ok, and this extraordinary phenomenon of the prisoners themselves banging on the walls, and the pipes, and the windows — whatever they could find to send out a message. If they hadn't if those family members hadn't come down, do you think that the outsiders would have known what was going on?

JW: This happened because of the sustained pressure of family members and supporters who remained there and said they won't leave until this heat. And that sustained pressure is what help get at least the progress that we have. It's incredibly important to give those family and those supporters credit for whatever progress we have. There were a couple people who were inside that also helped alert folks to what was going on. So I want to make sure we give them credit as well. But without the people you know we wouldn’t have this. We especially wouldn't had it yesterday. The callousness of it was just astonishing.

CO: And this had been going on for weeks. So if not for that cry going out from the people outside, they wouldn't have known that those inmates were out in the cold and in the dark.

JW: Absolutely. That is absolutely correct. And it was just amazing to see them finding a way to communicate through light and banging was incredible.

CO: Yeah, they were flicking the lights off and on when they finally came on. The big cheer went out when they did.

JW: Well, even before that, some of them had reading lights. And so they were communicating to kind of S.O.S messages and other flickering to the people on the ground when asked questions. It was helpful to get information.

CO: And now you say that now there's going to be an investigation. The U.S. Department of Justice says it will investigate. So what is the biggest question that you have?

JW: You know I don't trust anything that's coming from that side. So it's very difficult, but it's all we have right now. You know there's probably conditions like this on local level, state level, and local level even here in New York. But I believe this happened in one of the jails, and people were able to find out about it. You know people could be rallying in Rikers right now and we wouldn't know. But if we did, I'm pretty sure there'll be inspections a people would be allowed inside. No one from the federal government came down in an entire week. Nobody came to inspect to see what was going on. If it wasn't for the local representatives and the Congresspeople who forced their way in, we wouldn’t have been in there. That's the astonishing difference. Now the DOJ is mentioning an investigation. I don't know who's going to investigate that has a different view of humanity of these folks than the people were there, and that's what concerns me. Because I've made a connection between this administration losing babies coming across the border — like they literally have no idea where they've separated those families to. And the folks they just completely ignored in this federal building. But to the extent an investigation is going to go forward, why was there no plan for an emergency such as this. And why there was no one who can set up a plan for an emergency such as this. What kind of two primary things that I want to know about. And we're understanding that some of the conditions were problematic even before, and so we have to figure that out as well.

CO: All right. We will be watching and following this story. Mr. Williams, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JW: Thank you, I appreciate it as well.

SC: Jumaane Williams is a city councillor in Brooklyn. That's where we reached him. In a statement on Sunday, The Federal Bureau of Prisons said that, while the building that houses men had limited power, the women's building was unaffected. The statement also said the heating was unaffected by the outage.

[Music: Sombre]

Hybrid bird

Guest: Shirley Caldwell

SC: You can't work up a full profile from either of its profiles. To get the whole picture, you have to look at the whole cardinal. And that's when you'll notice it appears to be both male and female — with its equally split right down the middle. Shirley Caldwell spotted the bird in her backyard, and was able to snap a photo. We reached the avid birder in Erie, Pennsylvania

CO: Shirley, are you getting a lot of birds in your backyard this time of year?

SHIRLEY CALDWELL: Usually when it's very cold, yes. Right now with the two days of warmer weather, I have not been seeing very many birds.

CO: But do you get a lot of cardinals?

SC: Not in particular, no. We get our fair share, but I think it's more in the summer.

CO: And so what struck you about this particular bird that showed up in your yard?

SC: Well, my husband had noticed that probably about a month ago. And then a week ago, it was Saturday, we saw it really good for the first time, and it's pretty obvious it's totally split left or right, Male/female.

CO: So what does it look like?

SC: It is red on the right side, and tannish female colours on the left side.

CO: And so we know that the female tend to be that kind of tarnish — the duller colour. And, of course, the males are these brilliant crimson colored birds.

SC: Exactly.

CO: What did you think when you saw this half and half version?

SC: I had seen birds like it on the internet, so I didn't know what they were called, but I knew I was looking at something different and something pretty special.

CO: And did this bird stay around for a bit?

SC: On Saturday it was here for not a very long time, but enough that I could get some ok pictures, and we didn't see it until two days after that where I was able to get the better pictures — one of which being what National Geographic had used.

CO: What have you been told? What have you come to understand about what this bird is all about?

SC: From what the article had stated, you know Cornell I don't know the professor's name, but it is a… I can't even say the word.

CO: Okay, I'll take a run at it. I've got it down her. It’s gynandromorphic.

SC: Yes, gynandromorphy.

CO: Okay. Whatever. That word.

SC: That word.

CO: And what does the word mean as far as you understand from Professor Hooper?

SC: That it is a you know half male half female individual. The little bit of information I had looked up was that it is split right down the middle; male on one side and female on the other. And one article I read did say there was an ovary on the left side, and a underdeveloped testy on the right side.

CO: And how did they know all that just by looking at the bird to that there's probably some kind of reproductive organs?

SC: Well, from what I had read, there was a study done on I guess there were fewer than one hundred individuals. And I suppose they did a necropsy — I did not read the whole article. So I really don't want to get into too much as far as the science because I really don't know and I don't understand it. And I don't want to misquote anyone or myself.

CO: Understood. I do know I hear a dog and in the background.

SC: Yes, we have nice weather today, the windows are open, and he is not behaving.

CO: But how does having a dog how does that affect your birdwatching abilities?

SC: Really, they don't seem to mind, you know? iIt's probably just something or part of their world to, as far as like they hear traffic, they hear birds or dogs barking. So really they don't seem to mind.

CO: Now, is this bird eating from your feeder?

SC: It is.

CO: What are you feeding him and her?

SC: We feed black oil sunflower seed. And I do have suet cakes, but I don't really see them going to the suet cakes. It's mainly the black oil sunflower seeds.

CO: The other thing about these kinds of birds, and apparently they're rare but they're they exist — I mean there are numbers of them — is that quite often they don't have mates. They get ostracized or they don't have a partner. So what are you hearing about your bird?

SC: Well, as far as ours you know, and that was one thing I did read was that they are a, quote, “lonely bird”. This one does have a male that it travels with. You know we've been paying attention, and when the gynandromorph does leave, the male follows with it. I always see them together, so I'm assuming this bird does have a mate. And they are saying — the professors from Cornell — that there is a possibility with the bird having its ovary on left side. I guess that's the only functioning ovary in a bird anyway is the left that there is a possibility this bird could breed.

CO: Well, this is going to be an exciting spring for you.

SC: I'm hoping it is. I really do. I'm really going to be paying attention. And like I said, I didn't see them yesterday or today. But I think it might just be because we're having a nice or whether they are eating more of their natural food. So they're not coming to the feeders. I don’t even have my little regular birds here.

CO: Oh, bit I think you should keep that black sun flower seed handy. There’s going to be more winter to come.

SC: Oh definitely, we feed year round. So whether they need it or not, we do enjoy watching the birds. S

CO: Shirley, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SC: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

SC: Bye-bye.

SC: Shirley Caldwell is an avid bird watcher. We reached her in Erie, Pennsylvania. To see the photo that Ms. Caldwell took of the cardinal, you check out our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Venezuela latest, seal beach takeover

Venezuela latest

Guest: Orlando Viera-Blanco

SC: Chrystia Freeland is calling on Venezuela's military to switch allegiances. Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister was in Ottawa today, playing host to the Lima Group. The regional alliance had gathered as part of their ongoing effort to find a diplomatic way to bring Venezuela's political and economic crisis to an end. Here's Minister Freeland afterwards, describing the joint resolution.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: We are indeed calling on the military of Venezuela, as we call on all Venezuelans, and as we call on all governments of the world, to recognize Juan Guaido as interim president of Venezuela. I do also want to address the issue of outside military intervention. And an important point in our communique is point seventeen, where we have agreed, and I quote, “finally, they — this is the countries of the Lima group — reiterate their support for a process of peaceful transition, through political and diplomatic means without the use of force.”

SC: That was Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland, speaking in Ottawa. Orlando Viera-Blanco was at that press conference. When today's meeting began, Mr. Viera-Blanco was recognized by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as the official representative in Canada of opposition leader Juan Guaido. We reached Orlando Viera-Blanco in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Viera-Blanco, we heard Chrystia Freeland and the Lima group calling for Venezuela's military to abandon President Maduro, and to recognize Juan Guido as their new commander in chief. Is that really going to happen?

ORLANDO VIERA-BLANCO: What is happening in Venezuela right now is a huge transition process in order to recover democracy, freedom, and rule of law. If that were to happen depends on many factors that seems to be that’s going to happen. If you can see the huge protests that we had already in Venezuela two days ago. It's not the tension. The army is acting in different ways for sure. That means some kind of disobedience that is coming In my opinion, the army is part of the people, which is part of the people right now. eighty per cent of the population is just asking to Maduro we need a change.

CO: But sir, We've seen Mr. Maduro, we've seen him this weekend, he's visiting the troops, he's having conferences with them. Very few military leaders are leaving his side. And he doesn't seem to be ruling out getting involved in some kind of armed conflict. So how likely is it that you're going to see the military change sides and support Mr. Guaido?

OVB: The military fact is not the main fact. These are consequences. Everything is dependent none of the military, dependant of the people, dependent of the momentum, dependent of the international coalition, dependant of how the military forces understand what's going on in the country, and what's going on with this international coalition? They are afraid they know that international justice is drowning. They know that the international community is recognizing Mr. Juan Guaido. They know that the main democracies in the world just called Maduro an illegitimate president Venezuela, and that has a huge impact not just the national army in Venezuela. It has an impact on the who political fundamental support of Mr. Maduro.

CO: I just want to go back something you said. I think that you said the military is beginning to behave differently. What are you seeing? Why do you say that? What are you basing that on?

OVB: I'm not expert in military fact. I'm not expert in this kind of field. But this evidence that is many dissidents from the army right now.

CO: Okay, but you've seen that Mr. Maduro doesn't seem to be ruling out any kind of armed conflict at this point. And you know that the United States is still talking about the possibility of military intervention in Venezuela. I know that neither is part of the Lima group, but there is still that saber rattling that's going on. So what the Lima group says no, we don't want to have war. But many people are fearing that the other two players — Mr. Maduro and the United States — may be headed in that direction. What do you say about that?

OVB: The military forces is not the way and is not the fact is not the bad you've mentioned. that draft plus is the situation with Venezuelan people. I'm sure that we don't need the intervention of any kind of military forces from United State, or maybe for any coalition. Venezuela people is a peaceful, peaceful people. And we are in the right path to resolve these specifically, constitutionally, and looking for democracy.

CO: I understand sir that what you're hoping will be the outcome, and that's what the Lima Group is hoping. But are you not worried at all that there are other players who seem to be heading on a different course, including the United States?

OVB: that is saying the United States respect the steps that Lima Group is just following. And that means try to get strong with the humanitarian aid. Getting strong wrong with looking for a negotiation, looking for the formula in order to try to recover democracy in Venezuela. And that has been very clear in the in the centre of the Lima Group that is not including military intervention.

CO: Okay, I just want to ask you just finally, how will you see Mr. Maduro removed from power if not by force?

OVB: He's getting along. And he recognized it’s time to part. It’s time to leave peacefully. It’s time to recognize the people or Venezuela are looking to transition, and change, and recovery of our own freedom. I see that the fact is just getting very close to such moments — this historical moment for Venezuela.

CO: All right. The world is watching. Mr. Viera-Blanco, thank you.

OVB: Thank you very much.

SC: Orlando Viera-Blanco is the official representative in Canada of Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido, whom Canada has recognized as Venezuela's interim president.

[Music: Horns!]

Liam Neeson

SC: Recently, Liam Neeson sat down with journalist Clemence Michallon, of the British online paper The Independent. He was there to talk about his new movie, "Cold Pursuit", in which he yet again plays a man out for violent revenge. Seemed like a standard promotional interview. But when Ms. Michallon asked Mr. Neeson what motivated his character's revenge killings, the actor got personal. He told a story he said he'd never told anyone else before. The story of a friend who'd confided that she'd been raped. After which, he went out to roam the streets with a weapon. Here's part of that story. And a warning, some of the language is disturbing.

SOUNDCLIP

LIAM NEESON: I'll tell you a story. This is true. I’m not going to use any names, but I was away, and I came back, and she told me she had been raped, but she handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way. But my immediate reaction was I asked did you know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said I was a black person. I went up and down the areas hoping I'd be approached by somebody. I'm ashamed to say that. And I did it for maybe a week, hoping some black bastard would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So I could kill him. I know it’s sad, but it took me a week maybe a week and a half to kind of get over that. She said to me where are you going? I said I’m just going out for a walk, you know? She say’s what's wrong? I said nothing’s wrong. I’m fine. It was horrible when I think back. But I did that, and I've never admitted that. And I’m saying it to a journalist, god forbid. It’s awful. But I did learn a lesson from it. I eventually thought what the [censored] are you doing, you know. And I come from a society I grew up in Northern Ireland in the troubles, and you know I knew a couple of guys that died on hunger strike. And I met acquaintances that were very caught up in the troubles. And I understand the need for revenge, but it just leads to more violence and more killing and more killing. You know Northern Ireland is proof of that, you know? All the stuff that's happening in the world at the minute the violence is proof of that, you know? Primal need I understand.

SC: That was actor Liam Neeson speaking with journalist Clemence Michallon of the British online newspaper The Independent. Our colleagues at CBC News reached out to Mr. Neeson's publicist for comment. They hadn't heard back by the time we went to air.

[Music: Sombre]

Seal beach takeover

Guest: John Dell'Osso

KG: During the U.S. government shutdown, human visitors made themselves unwelcome in some national parks. For example, as we told you on the program, careless guests did such damage inside Joshua Tree National Park that it may take centuries to fully recover. But during that same difficult period, a beach in one California park received a whole bunch of surprise visitors. Big ones. Who, despite their general clumsiness, are more than welcome. John Dell'Osso is the Chief of Interpretation and Resource eEucation at the Point Reyes National Seashore in California. That's where we reached him.

CO: John, tell us what happened on Drakes Beach during the government shutdown?

JOHN DELL’OSSO: Absolutely. We had kind of a perfect storm of events. There was a storm about two weeks ago that came through the San Francisco Bay area, and it was coupled with very extreme high tides, which are known as king tides. And what that does is — cause we get these every now and again — it tends to displace the different colonies that we have of elephant seals found along our shoreline.

CO: And so where did they get displaced to?

JD: In this particular case, and in years past, they have shown up on Drakes Beach. Now, typically we will find anywhere from say three to maybe six or seven adult males or bulls. And we can manage those few animals on a beach; it’s a very wide beach, along with the public. But what happened in this particular situation is we had not just bulls on the beach, but we had a number of pregnant females. And before we knew it, some of those pregnant females were giving birth.

CO: And so how of the seals do you have now on Drakes Beach?

JD: I would say approximately 50 to 60 adults, and probably 35-plus pups.

CO: I've seen some pictures, and first of all, it’s a beautiful beach. But now it's quite the sanctuary for these elephant seals, isn't it?

JD: It absolutely is. I'd like to say they've kind of reclaimed their territory from many years ago. So we're in an interesting situation to try to figure out now how do we accommodate the natural resource in this case because we are entrusted by the American people with the national parks to protect our human history and also our natural history. And in this case, it's pretty obvious and clear. But at the same time, allow you know opportunities for the public to learn and become educated.

CO: Are you going to let people onto the beach?

JD: We will not be letting people onto the beach, but we will reopen the road and the parking lot. And we're going to have a cadre of park rangers and volunteer docents that will walk people back and forth along this sidewalk that is between the edge of the parking lot and the beach. So there will be tremendous views for people to see the elephant seals relatively close. There'll be some educational opportunities for us to provide. But we can't have people going onto the beach because of the pups that are nursing there. And this is just going to be experimental. So we're really you know we're gonna see how this works.

CO: Now, I understand some of the bull seals have taken over the parking lot as well?

JD: Well, that was during that storm period that there were probably four or five seals in the parking area — actually one underneath a picnic table, right below the bookstore that we have there. But they have since retreated.

CO: I just want to get back to just briefly how they got onto the beach? Did they wash onto the beach or did they have to break in?

JD: Well, the way that the elephant seals and seals very you know quickly they very different from sea lions where seals kind of flop on to a beach, whereas sea lions can rotate their front flippers and so you see them walking more upright. They're more agile that way. So they usually come in with a wave. It doesn't have to be a significant wave, but at the point where the water is no longer available to push them up the beach, they then begin to flop if you will for lack of a technical word further up the beach until they're away from the tide.

CO: Now if there ends up being a kind of showdown about who should own this beach and they seem to at this point have claimed it, who wins?

JD: Well, that's why we're going to experiment this weekend where we hope to find a win-win. And that would be that you know the seals will probably be on that beach till sometime in late March/early April when the pups will weaned from their mothers. And at that point in time, for the most part, those seals will have dispersed. That's typically what occurs out here. And that would be great. But I think this weekend experimenting with you know allowing the seals to have the beach and then allowing the public to get some really incredible views of these wonderful animals we think is a win-win. They've made this tremendous comeback from almost near extinction you know many decades ago. And you know there's no reason to try to stop that process. And it's not that their colony is necessarily expanding. It is slowly, but we have a lot of beach area out here. And there's plenty more beach where they are not using it right now that is perfect habitat for them. And so we hope that they would again agree with us and start to use some of those other areas.

CO: All right. Well, they're lucky to have all of that, and to be there. And I appreciate speaking with you, John. Thank you.

JD: Absolutely, thank you.

CO: Bye.

JD: Bye-bye.

SG: John Dell'Osso is the Chief of Interpretation and Resource Education for the Point Reyes National Seashore in California. We reached him in Point Reyes.

[Music: Lullaby]

Banana-thwarted thief

SC: And now for something completely different. That not only describes this next story, it's also the title of a 1971 Monty Python movie featuring a sketch called "Self Defence Against Fresh Fruit" — in which a self-defence expert teaches a group of men to fend off would-be attackers, using different kinds of fruit. Here's a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: I love this movie! A man describes the process of disarming a man attacking with a banana by eating the banana.]

SC: Now before I go any further, I need to tell you about a man named Tim — a technician who worked at CBC Radio for many years, and just recently retired. Tim had a theory about this program. It was: for every absurd “As it Happens” story that has ever aired — or ever will air — there exists a corresponding precedent, in the form of a Monty Python sketch. We usually responded to Tim's theory as follows.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A man yells shut up!]

SC: But we were wrong. There is some recent proof that time was right: an incident at a Mississauga, Ontario, convenience store over the weekend On Saturday evening, Sungae Kim — who owns the store with her husband — delivered a personal twist on that classic sketch, by fending off a would-be robber with a bunch of bananas. Here's what she told CTV reporter Nick Dixon:

SOUNDCLIP

SUNGAE KIM: Around 9:00, my husband sit down in corner watching TV, I’m sit down this corner have a banana. Somebody came in all cover up the face. And he want me open up the cash register. Then he jump up to the the counter. My husband push down him. Then I scared to my husband going to be hurting. So I get the banana I starting to hit him so hard. Then he run away. It’s a whole big bunch like this. I hit him so much that he run away.

NICK DIXON: Did the police laugh when you told them how you did it?

SK: Yeah, yeah. He's say good job.

SC: Thankfully, no one was injured. Except the bananas, which were bruised. And probably the unarmed perp, who was also bruised. The incident is under investigation by the — and this is not lost on any of us — Peel Regional Police. Tim, if you're listening — we hear you now.

[Music: Jazz]

Part three: Saudi U.K. report, Michael Ferguson obit

Trump interview

SC: Over the weekend, U.S. President Donald Trump continued an odd, recently established presidential tradition, of sitting down for an interview before the Super Bowl. A lot of his conversation with CBS's Margaret Brennan focused on the countries from which he plans to pull U.S. troops. And the countries in which he plans to keep them. Here's a bit of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Being in Iraq was a mistake, okay? Being in Iraq was a big mistake to go — one of the greatest mistakes going into the Middle East that our country has ever made. One of the greatest mistakes that we've ever made.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you want to keep troops there now?

DT: Well, we spent a fortune on building this incredible base. We might as well keep it. And one of the reasons I want to keep it is because I want to be looking a little bit at Iran because Iran is a real problem.

MB: Woah, that’s news! You're keeping troops in Iraq because you want to be able to strike in Iran?

DT: No, because I want to be able to watch Iran. All I want to do is be able to watch. We have an unbelievable and expensive military base built in Iraq. It's perfectly situated for looking at all over different parts of the troubled Middle East. Rather than pulling up, and this is what a lot of people don't understand, we're going to keep watching, and we're going to keep seeing. And if there's trouble, if somebody is looking to do nuclear weapons or other things, we're going to know it before they do.

MB: So you're going to trust the intelligence that you receive?

DT: I am going to trust the intelligence that I am putting there. But I will say this, my intelligence people if they said, in fact, that Iran is a wonderful kindergarten, I disagree with them 100 per cent. It is a vicious country that kills many people when you talk about torture and so many other things. And maybe they'll come back. When I ended the horrible Iran nuclear deal — it was a horrible deal done by President Obama and John Kerry that didn't know what the hell he was doing. When I ended that deal, Margaret, all of a sudden Iran became a different country. They became very rapidly. Right now, they're a country that's a big financial trouble. Let's see what happens.

MB: I want to move on here but, I should say that your intel chiefs do say Iran's abiding by that nuclear deal. I know you think it’s a bad deal, but…

DT: I disagree with them. By the way, I have intel people. That doesn't mean I have to agree.

SC: That's part of President Donald Trump's conversation with Margaret Brennan on CBS's "Meet the Nation", which aired over the weekend.

[Music: Ambient]

Saudi U.K. report

Guest: Paul Williams

SC: When Canada called for the release of Saudi activist Samar Badawi, it set off a diplomatic firestorm. Now, MPs in Britain are raising the alarm about Ms. Badawi and seven other imprisoned female activists — saying their treatment amounts to torture. Their cross-party investigation found that the women have been subjected to sleep deprivation, assault, and threats to their life, while in detention in Saudi Arabia. The MPs are also calling for Ms. Badawi to be released — along with the other prisoners. Paul Williams is a Labour MP on the panel. We reached him in London.

CO: Mr. Williams, what have you been able to learn about how these eight women are being treated in Saudi Arabia?

PAUL WILLIAMS: Well, disappointingly, we haven't been able to visit the women. We made a genuine request to the Saudi authorities that as a group of completely independent parliamentarians from across the political spectrum, we'd be able to go and make an independent assessment. The Saudi government just haven't engaged with us. And so we've had to go from the only sources of information that we've had — U.S. State Department reports, Amnesty reports, Human Rights Watch reports, and I'm afraid they don't look good. It's very clear to us that these women have been subjected to mistreatment that meet the international definition of torture. And that the Saudi authorities are culpable for that.

CO: And why are they in prison?

PW: They've been arrested allegedly because of anti-government activities. They haven't been yet subjected to any due process, a fair trial, they haven't had appropriate access to legal representation. And we know that these are some prominent Saudi activists — particularly women's activists, who have campaigned for among other things for the right for women to be able to drive. And there's a real irony in that at the time the Saudi government gave these limited extra freedoms for women, the very activists that had been campaigning within the civil society space for this to happen were arrested.

CO: Canada has a particular interest in a well one of the detainees, Samar Badawi. Her brother's family lives here. And her brother is we understand being tortured in a Saudi prison as well. Do you know anything about how Samar Badawi is doing?

PW: We took some evidence about the manner of her arrest, and we knew that she was arrested in the town of Jeddah. She was arrested in the middle of the night, and she was actually made to stand outside… this is horrible holding her four-year-old daughter two hours from 1:00 in the morning until 3:00 in the morning with Saudi guards pointing their weapons at her, until eventually resources grandmother was allowed to take the child from her. We haven't had any other specific allegations around Samar’s treatment. But we know that the women have generally reported mistreatment. We know that the women have been subjected to sexual harassment, including some of them have been made to strip naked and then had photographs taken. We know that there have been threats of rape. And we know that some of the women have been beaten. Now, I'm not saying that those things have necessarily happened to Samar. They have happened to some of the women. But it doesn't look good at all. These are brave women, who have taken a strong stance in their country. And they've been subjected to the most appalling detention conditions.

CO: Your interest and your awareness of what's going on is not just as an MP and doing the research on this panel, but also you are a doctor yourself. What do you understand about their physical condition? The report suggests that their health and their physical well-being may be quite deteriorated at this point. What do you know about that?

PW: So as a doctor, I am concerned about both their physical and their mental well-being. The mental effects are possibly greater. But there is some evidence that at least some of the women have had ongoing medical conditions, and haven't always had appropriate access to medical care. I'm really worried as well about the psychological effects of what's happening of being kept in incommunicado detention. And then, of course, the beatings, the sexual assaults, and harassment. The whole picture looks and looks terrible for these women.

CO: This committee that you’re on that made this review is cross-party, as you mentioned. And it includes people like Crispin Blunt — an MP, a conservative, who is known to be quite sympathetic to the House of Saud and the royal family. So what is the message that you are sending with this detention review panel report?

PW: Well, the message is that we were all independent-minded. I myself visited Saudi Arabia as a guest of the Saudi government last year, and was very impressed by some of the elements of the reform program that they showed me. But we approached this with an open mind. We wanted to be able to see whether or not these women were being appropriately cared for. And the Saudi government have refused to engage with us. It's very clear that the Saudi government must release these women immediately. That they must be given access to due legal process, they must be given access to medical care, and that the people who have mistreated them and we think in the case of these high profile detainees the culpability for this must go right to the top of the Saudi authorities. And people need to be held to account.

CO: I think you know that just last year, Canada's Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland complained to the Saudis about the treatment of Samar Badawi, and called for her release, and also criticised the human rights record of Saudi Arabia. And for that there were quite serious consequences for Canada. At the time Canada felt quite isolated. There weren't a lot of other countries supporting Canada. Do you think that that is being revisited? Do you think that there is an understanding that Canada was attempting to do last year?

PW: I think Canada took a very brave, bold, and principled stance, as Canada tends to do and many issues. And so I commend the Canadian Foreign Minister and the Canadian government for the stance that they took. And I think that it's becoming increasingly clear that the Saudi government needs to change its ways in order to be accepted as a legitimate member of the international community. I hope now that other governments will join in solidarity with the Canadians. And if we do stand united together then that's the best way in which we can force change. Because we want to encourage Saudi Arabia that engages with the international community, but one that isn't afraid to open up its civil society space for freedom of expression and for the progress that the vast majority of people — 75 per cent of the Saudi people are under the age of 30. This is a young country with people that want to live in a more liberal environment. And it's up to the Saudi authorities to enable that space.

CO: Mr. Williams, thank you for coming on the program.

PW: Carol, thank you very much for having me. Much appreciated.

CO: Bye-bye.

PW: Okay, bye-bye. Thank you.

SC: Paul Williams is a British Labour MP. He is part of a cross-party panel that investigated the detention of female activists in Saudi Arabia. He was in London.

[Music: Sombre]

FOA: Electric shock lawsuit

SC: It happened more than 50 years ago. But the consequences of Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron's experiments are still being felt today. Between the 1940s and 1960s, Dr. Cameron carried out experiments on hundreds of patients in Montreal. There were the electroconvulsive shocks; insulin-induced comas; broadcasts of the same message, repeated hundreds of thousands of times; and harmful combinations of drugs. They were experiments funded, in part, by the CIA, and the Canadian government. Back in 1993, Ottawa awarded compensation to seventy-seven of Dr. Cameron's former patients. Now, a new class-action suit hopes to bring compensation to hundreds more of his patients, and their families. In 1998, "As It Happens" interviewed Linda MacDonald, who went to Dr. Cameron for post-partum depression in the 1960s — and left, months later, with her memory wiped clean.

SOUNDCLIP

LINDA MACDONALD: I walked into the Allan Memorial carrying my guitar and an overnight bag for an assessment, and I didn't come out again for five months. And when I came out, I was discharged in September 1963, I was a vegetable. As far as I knew, I'd never been in this world before.

JUDY REBICK: And from reading your file, you know what was done to you there — what happened?

LM: Yes, I do. I had 109 electroconvulsive shock treatments in less than five weeks. And 68 of those were called Page Russells. Named after Dr. Page and Dr. Russell who invented this process in 1947. And it’s in the Medical Journal that it should never happen, except in extreme cases when there's no other help, and then that should only happen once. I had two of these shock treatment a day for 68 total treatments. There are 150 times the voltage of of an average ordinary every shock treatment.

JR: And Dr. Cameron also drugged people into sleep. Did that happen to you?

LM: Yes, I had all of all of those ECTs were done in conjunction with some mega doses of barbiturates and hallucinogenic drugs and LSD and all of the rest of it. Cameron's objective was to wipe out my previous life, and he was absolutely and completely successful in my case.

JR: And your memory hasn't come back at all?

LM: No, it won't, and it can't, because it's in brain cells that were wiped. When I first found out that I was part of an experiment that was 1984. I called the lawyers who represented the nine against the CIA. We talked at length over the telephone. They told me to send for my file, but they also warned me and it proved to be true, that I couldn't become the tenth one to sue the CIA because I was done in 63, and the CIA funding was pulled in 62. And I said if the CIA didn't fund my experiment then who did? And Jim Turner said that is a very good question, Linda. Maybe you better go and find out. And that's when we found out that the Canadian government was 90 per cent responsible for the whole thing.

JR: You sued the Canadian government?

LM: I did.

JR: And what happened?

LM: And we won after many years. We tried to make it a class action suit, but we couldn't find other people who would come out so to speak out of the closet and join me.

JR: How did you have the strength? I mean it sounds like you were up against impossible odds here, and you're doing this almost by yourself with your help of a lawyer. How did you find the strength?.

LM: I think what it was is that Cameron's experiments could kill a memory and a life an ruin it frankly, but they cannot kill a spirit. The personality that we're born with seems to be in time that the personality that will come back. And I'm a Leo.

JR: Me too!

LM: And I was fighting when I was born.

JR: Ok, good. Are you satisfied now?

LM: No. I was very tired of one we decided to settle out of court, and the settlement was ridiculous. I should perhaps not have settled, and we should have just gone ahead and taken them to court.

SC: Linda MacDonald, speaking to "As It Happens" guest host Judy Rebick back in 1998. A new class-action suit has been filed against the Canadian government, and the medical institution where Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron worked. That has yet to be certified by the court.

[Music: instrumental]

SOD: NAC instrument

SC: There are two ways that one can play the pneumaphone. But the strange sounds you can make are endless. The music-making machine is composed of 20-or-so big yellow bags. Those bags are hooked up like bellows to 20-or-so horns, organs, and flutes. And whenevever someone squeezes one of the bags, an instrument blurts out a noise. Now this can be taken very seriously and treated like high art. Or you can unleash the pneumaphone on a room full of curious kids. That's what they're going to do at the National Art Centre in Ottawa later this month, when the pneumaphone makes its North American debut at the Big Bang music festival. They've sent us a little sampler of what that'll sound like -- and it's our sound of the day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: a pneumaphone plays. It sounds like a traffic jam]

SC: That's our sound of the day. And if you can believe it, it's music — created by a pneumaphone — which is a bunch of big yellow bags hooked up to a variety of wind instruments. The instruments will be making an appearance at the National Art Centre in Ottawa later this month.

[Music: Instrumental

Michael Ferguson obit

Guest: Alex Himelfarb

SC: For the last seven years, Michael Ferguson dedicated his life to holding the federal government to account. Canada's auditor general died on Saturday of cancer. He was sixty. His office said he had been undergoing treatment since November. Since he took on the role of auditor general in late 2011, Michael Ferguson spoke to “As It Happens” many times. One of the issues he returned to often over his career was the federal government's failure to fulfill its commitments to Indigenous communities. Here is part of what he had to say in November 2013.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL FERGUSON: What we found was over a four year period, the federal government spent I believe it was four hundred and forty eight million dollars on emergencies on reserves to deal with 447 emergencies. But of the four hundred and forty eight million dollars they spent, only one per cent of it was spent on what we would call prevention or mitigation activities. So most of what the federal government has been able to do is to react to situations as they arise.

SC: Auditor General Michael Ferguson in 2013 on “As It Happens”. Alex Himelfarb is a former clerk of the Privy Council, and he's on the Auditor General's panel of senior advisors. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Himelfarb, first of all, I am sorry for your loss.

ALEX HIMELFARB: Yes, it's sad for all of us who knew Michael, and also a shock for us. That's not what we were expecting. He will be missed. He was a wonderful man.

CO: Now, you say that those who knew him — the Canadian public knew Michael Ferguson as the person who delivered those reports holding the Government to account for its shortcomings. But you knew him personally. Can you just tell us what kind of person was he like?

AH: Right. Well, I knew him largely through participating on his advisory panel. But over the last couple of years, we had a chance to have some more intimate chats just one-on-one. And I found him to be a person of great dignity, of huge integrity, but also of humility. You know I know he was hard-hitting and he didn't pull punches, but he was not a gotcha kind of Auditor General. He got no joy in finger pointing. It wasn't about blame for him. He's absolutely committed to helping the public service do better, be better. So he was in some ways an idealist. He was pretty free of cynicism. Practical and realistic, of course, but he was there to make things better.

CO: He came after Sheila Fraser who was quite hard-hitting, and sort of the general feeling was well, he is not going to be any Sheila Fraser, he's not going to go after things the way she did, he is not going to be the same kind of person. But then he proved he wasn't like Sheila Fraser in any way, but he proved people wrong, didn't he? He was just as tenacious.

AH: He called out failures, and he didn't pull punches. He wanted things to be better and he was driven by a belief that that his job was to speak truth to power as they say. He was his own person, and he brought his own values in his own kind of modest style. But he was tenacious, and he was dedicated, and he was unafraid. And some files where he thought it was really important that we do more and do better such as Aboriginal justice and the Indigenous files. He was relentless.

CO: You know we interviewed him many times on the program. Each time he had his annual report and other occasions, and we would be in a long queue with many others he. But when he came on he you knew he was just talking to us — to our listeners. And what was so clear in what he say what how he delivered it was that he saw the people behind the numbers behind that what he was saying — he saw the lives that were affected. Is that your impression?

AH: Entirely so. I'm really glad you said that. I mean that was that was the driver. He would ask what about the person who is making that phone call? What about the person who couldn't get through? What about the Canadian, the citizen, who was at the other end of this program? That was always what he was asking about.

CO: You mentioned that he was fiercely interested in seeing Indigenous justice and Indigenous rights exposed for where they were not. He would hold people account for that. What did he want to see changed in terms of the relationship between the Federal Government and Indigenous people and First Nations?

AH: Well, on the simplest level, he just wanted to see the program results delivered and the rhetoric lived up to. Those are two simple things he kept coming back to. You make promises, deliver on promises, and you have programs deliver the results. And those results shouldn't constantly fall short of similar results for non-Indigenous people.

CO: Did he see the results? Did he see the effect of his reports, or was it just endlessly frustrating?

AH: Well, it was really the sort of hard-hitting reflective report on this was the last report he did. And my view is it was a report that will result in change. Unfortunately, change he won't see. But I think he recognized a significant improvement. He did talk about with me that he recognized a significant improvement in the commitments made to reconciliation, to a nation-to-nation relationship, to putting resources in education water and reserve and so on. And so he I would say he wasn't without hope. But he kept the pressure on.

CO: He's died at the age of 60. What kind of a kind of a hole does this leave for us in public service?

AH: I honestly believe that he's a real loss. He represents all that great in the traditions of public service of fearless advice and loyal implementation and really a real belief in accountability, transparency, and the common good. I think he was a particularly special guy. He was a superb public servant. And, of course, there are excellent people, but he will definitely be missed.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Himelfarb, I really appreciate you sharing your memories of this man with us. Thank you.

AH: My pleasure.

CO: Bye-bye.

AH: Bye.

SC: Alex Himelfarb is a former clerk of the Privy Council. He's currently on the Auditor General's panel of senior advisors. He was in Toronto. Auditor General Michael Ferguson died on Saturday of cancer. He was sixty.

[Music: Folk]

Rams tackle

SC: Last night's big game didn't last a lifetime. It sure felt like it did. When Super Bowl 53 was over, the New England Patriots had defeated the Los Angeles Rams to win their sixth NFL championship. The score was 13 to 3. The halftime show was Maroon 5. If you infer from all three of those facts that it was frustrating and boring, you are correct. But after the game, Rams' tackle Andrew Whitworth put everyone's experience — his own, his losing team's, and ours, as viewers — in perspective.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW WHITWORTH: I don't give a crap if you have a hall of fame bust, if you've been a pro bowler, or win 20 SUPER BOWLS, at the end of the day, you’re all going to die.

SC: Okay, whoa. That is not a boilerplate post-game interview response. You're just supposed to say some things about how you left it all on the field and things just didn't go your way. You're not supposed to say "We gave 110 percent and death is inevitable." Ultimately, though, what Andrew Whitworth said, in full, was more nuanced than that soundbite. In that interview after that heartbreaking, mind-numbing loss, the 37-year-old offensive lineman talked about possibly retiring at 37. And then he addressed the game itself. Here's his full answer.

SOUNDCLIP

AW: I realize what this game means. I cherish the crap out of it. I don't give a crap if you have a hall of fame bust, if you've been a pro bowler, or win 20 SUPER BOWLS, at the end of the day, you’re all going to die. And you're all going to have the opportunity to play football or not be playing football. And who you are, how you carry yourself, whether you pout and feel sorry for yourself is the only thing it's gonna matter because that's what people are going to remember about you. You know what. And so for me what means the most is that guys see me hold my head high. They see me confident in them, and loving them, and there for them in any way I can moving forward.

SC: Los Angeles Rams offensive lineman Andrew Whitworth, saying — basically — that being a decent person is more important than a Super Bowl. And also, that we're all going to die. Kind of a mixed bag, message-wise, but after losing in a game where only one team even scored one touchdown, it makes sense that he was fixated on the end zone.

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February 4,2019 episode transcript

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