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The AIH Transcript for December 04, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: Bring them together, or they'll come apart. Yazidi refugees in Canada are struggling with severe PTSD — one doctor thinks a change in family reunification policy could help them recover.

JD: Unsettled. Years after he was sexually abused by a priest as a boy, our guest was offered compensation from the Catholic Church. But 3 after that offer, he's still waiting for the cheque.

CO: Uneasy is the head that swears to the Crown. A town councillor in Northern Ontario gives up his seat, rather than pledge to the Queen during his swearing-in ceremony.

JD: An unclear and omnipresent danger. A Toronto artist is diagnosed with heavy-metal poisoning — after discovering the mussel shells she used in her art for years were toxic.

CO: Froze-coloured glasses, Part One. The story of a boy who stuck his tongue to a pole sends us to our archives — for our interview with the actor from "A Christmas Story" who starred in that classic scene about a disastrous "triple dog dare".

JD: And...froze-coloured glasses, Part Two. A 9-year-old Colorado boy shows his neighbours how he rolls — by convincing his town council to lift a 98-year ban on snowball fights.

JD: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses they heard his argument -- and sent him packing.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Yazidi PTSD, Hearst councillor, Colorado town snowballs

Yazidi PTSD

Guest: Annalee Coakley

JD: Many Yazidi refugees in Canada struggle with post-traumatic stress disorder. For some, the trauma is so intense, it manifests in unsettling ways. Recently, the Globe and Mail published a story about Jihan Khuder, a Yazidi refugee in Calgary whose PTSD symptoms include violent seizures. Her medical team believes her best chance at healing is to be reunited with her family, by bringing them from Iraq to Canada. Annalee Coakley is a medical director with Calgary's Mosaic Refugee Health Clinic. That's where we reached her. And a warning: this interview does contain disturbing descriptions of sexual assault.

CO: Dr. Coakley, I know you have been seeing Jihan Khuder — and you've seen her when she's having one of these seizures. Can you describe what happens to her?

ANNALEE COAKLEY: So Jihan will suddenly fall to the ground. She's unresponsive and disassociated, with a very blank look in her eyes. She will arch her back in quite an extreme way, where the top of her head is on the floor. She is moving her head side to side and biting at her arms as if she is fending herself off from her attackers. She is also making a very deep guttural sound that's quite disturbing to listen to. And these episodes often last you know 20 minutes to three hours.

CO: Is there anything in particular that triggers them?

AC: So she will say no. And they seem to happen at random. They happen here in the clinic, they happen at school, they happen when she is on the C train or crossing the street. What we do know about these psychogenic non-epileptic seizures is usually they are triggered by a strong emotional response. But she will deny that.

CO: You just said in your first answer that she arches herself, as though fending herself off from her attackers. What do you think is behind these seizures? Why do you think she is having this disorder?

AC: Well, she has this disorder because she has been through extreme trauma. Like many of our Yezidi women and children, she was held captive by Daesh for many, many months. And she suffered extreme abuse at their hands — so extreme forms of sexual abuse. And when I witness these episodes, it really does look like a recreation of her rape.

CO: In this extraordinary global male story that was published on the weekend that featured Jihan, it described in detail what happened to her. You've mentioned Daesh, but it’s also known as ISIS, and how she was taken into sex slavery, and just repeatedly raped — she and her sisters. When did the these seizures begin? Were they happening while she was in captivity?

AC: Yeah, they started while she was in captivity, and they've progressively become worse over time. And so there was a period of a time a few months ago where these were happening multiple times a day. So she was unable to attend school because of the frequency of these attacks, unable to do her daily activities. She was afraid to go outside because she was worried that she would be out at the supermarket or crossing the street and fall down and have one of these attacks.

CO: Do you know any other women who are having this — because so many of the Yazidi women, and the ones who now live in Canada as refugees, have similar brutal and awful stories. Are they having the same condition?

AC: So many are. So we have 286 Yazidi refugees here in Calgary, and we have six patients with this condition. So it's not just women. It's women and children who have these conditions. And, in fact, one of our children has been asked to take a leave of absence from school because the school cannot handle this condition because she has these attacks multiple times per day, and it's causing tremendous stress on the teacher and her classmates. And so I actually go to meet with the school today to discuss a resolution to this issue because she needs to be in school. In fact, the treatment is engaging the brain in different types of activities to try to overcome that short circuit in the brain. And so she really needs to be in school and learning. And so we have to come up with a solution together in terms of how we do that.

CO: And we know that ISIS they did rape children, and forced older girls and women to watch, including their mothers. And we know that they also forced the girls to watch the rape of the older women.

AC: Yeah, Carol, it's been horrific. The stories that we hear you can't even imagine that other human beings do this to other human beings.

CO: Both of us are resisting giving some of the worst details of what happened to these women. Now back to Jihan, she has two sisters who were also taken into this sex slavery. One of them she is now with. What’s happened to Hudda, the youngest?

AC: So Hudda is now living in a refugee camp in Kurdistan. She has been severely traumatized. She's on her own. She is desperate to be with her sisters. She is suffering like Jihan. So she too has these psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. And the whole group of three sisters are desperate to be together. And I feel like they really need to be together in order to start the healing process.

CO: And you think that not just because it will be good and nice for them to be with each other, but you think it's essential to her treatment — to her recovery from this trauma — that she is reunited with this sister, is that right?

AC: Absolutely. If you talk to Jihan about her biggest stressor, it is being separated from Hudda. And she witnesses, through her phone, Hudda’s suffering every day. And it's a perpetuating factor for mental illness.

CO: And why is that going on? Why can't they be reunited with their siblings and their families?

AC: So the federal government with refugee resettlement has a policy where refugees have a one-year window to sponsor their dependents to come and join them here in Canada. With the sisters, they're adults, and so they're not their dependents. And so there is no legal mechanism by which the Yazidi women can sponsor their sisters to come to Canada.

CO: In this “Globe and Mail” story, they say that the translator wouldn't even translate questions about Hudda for Jihan because for fear that she would collapse just being asked about her sister. How much contact does Jihan have with Hudda?

AC: Oh, multiple times a day. It's amazing with technology, you know with our phones, we can be in contact with loved ones abroad — even when they're in the most difficult and remote situations. For Jihan, with her witnessing the suffering of her sister on a daily basis, it perpetuates her psychogenic non-epileptic seizures.

CO: Any indication that the government is hearing your plea and that the plea of others that these families like Jihan’s get reunited in order to allow them to recover their mental health?

AC: So I haven't heard anything from the government personally. But I do believe that this government has a compassionate heart, and I just hope that they utilize that compassion to change policy to reunite these families.

CO: Dr. Coakley, this is very difficult to speak about. I'm glad that you would share these details with us. And thank you.

AC: Thank you so much, Carol.

CO: Bye bye.

AC: Bye.

JD: Annalee Coakley is a medical director with Calgary's Mosaic Refugee Health Clinic. And that's where we reached her. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Hearst councillor

Guest: Gaetan Baillargeon

JD: Gaetan Baillargeon was supposed to be sworn in as a town councillor in Hearst, Ontario last night. He won the seat by winning the support of two-thirds of voters in an election in October. But when Mr. Baillargeon stepped up to the podium to be sworn in, he had a request for the town clerk. And when he left the swearing-in ceremony, he'd given up his seat. We reached Gaetan Baillargeon in Constance Lake First Nation, near Hearst.

CO: Mr. Baillargeon, what did you ask the town clerk to do after you stepped up the podium to be sworn in?

GAETAN BAILLARGEON: Well, I asked the clerk to be able to help me change paragraph four because it was inconsistent with my views regarding the relationship between the Crown and the Indigenous people of Canada.

CO: And what was the part you wanted to change?

GB: Swearing allegiance to the Queen. Well, in my belief, that we're not a conquered people. We signed treaties together. They were not uphold. And then you have different things that were created by that monarchy that became Canada. I do respect Canada and its laws. But, in my beliefs, you know the things that were created that were bad like reservations and Indian residential schools where my mother was forced to go. As respect for her, I just could not pledge allegiance.

CO: And what happened next? What did the clerk say to you?

GB: Well, it kind of started prior. She had asked me to step out before we actually all began and said that by law I'm going to have to refuse my seat. And it's not something that I want to do, and I still don't want to refuse my seat, but she had indicated to me that if I did not renounce my seat at that time that the meeting could no longer continue. And we were kind of at an impasse. My point was is not to go against the rest of council. You know, they're non-Aboriginal; it has nothing to do with them. It just has to do with the laws that I find are already in place. And I thought that going into this, I didn't think at all that I needed to pledge allegiance to the Queen because there are laws in place of the Oaths and Affirmations Act of Ontario. And I was one hundred per cent sure that they applied to me. I was told today that they kind of conflict with the municipal laws, and they may have forgot to input it. My guess is that the not too many First Nations people to run for elected office in the municipalities, rather than chief in council. And chief in councils are not obligated to swear to the Queen.

CO: But the clerk says that according to the Municipal Act in Ontario, that's the way things are. That you have to make this pledge, you can't change it, and she said — I’ll just read part of the transcript, “if you wish to maintain your position and refuse to pledge allegiance to the Queen, this means that you are giving up your seat as a councillor. Is that your wish to renounce your seat as municipal councillor?” And what did you say to that question?

GB: I had to respond to yes because of what we had discussed. But, in all honesty, I don't want to give up my seat. It's something that the people voted for me, and to my knowledge, I was always fair with everybody and told my views for Aboriginal people. How I want to bring both communities closer together because we're roughly 30 kilometres away from Hearst, and I live in Hearst, and I want to represent the English speaking people, the Aboriginal people in the town also — you know minorities is what I've always been pushing for. I've been a minority all my life as an Aboriginal man and as a Francophone also. So you know this week was kind of a double stab to the heart with the Ontario government is going through and what was set forth to me with this allegiance.

CO: You say that it's your belief that you shouldn't have to do this. But, in fact, it's clear that the treaty rights were never ceded. You never ceded your sovereignty. That's established, and that your First Nations share this territory with those who arrived. So you seem to have at all on your side. Why can't you make the case? Since everybody wants this to happen it seems, why can't they make the compromise?

GB: Well, I think — and I respect — Madam Lecours, which is the clerk. She has a job to do, and I won't speak ill of her. I think she's maybe afraid of the decisions if she were to change the wording that might come back and haunt her later on. And you know I like I tell people it's something that's not new to me. I've been fighting ever since I was a young man. And I'm going to continue to fight for my rights. And some people they're not used to that. It pushes against their values. Sometimes they're scared. They see us as people that want to go against the grain. And that's not it at all. I just want people to see and accept that there were once people here. And like you said we were not ceded, and I think what I'm doing is respecting my mother. And there's nothing more honourable than that.

CO: We know that there are precedents in Victoria. The mayor was allowed to become mayor without pledging allegiance to the Queen. In Quebec, politicians have done it; they do something in private. So it exists. Just quickly, do you think you can actually get this changed for others?

GB: I think so. I spoke with the deputy today. He said he had crossed the floor to talk with the Minister of Municipal Affairs. They seemed to think that I was allowed and it was my right to seek change in the wording. And when they looked at it, they said let us get back to you. Maybe it was just something that we forgot to actually implement in the municipal act.

CO: All right. We will be watching. Mr. Baillargeon, thank you.

GB: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye.

GB: Bye.

Get

JD: Gaetan Baillargeon gave up his seat as a councillor in Hearst, Ontario yesterday. We reached him in Constance Lake First Nation. We did reach out to the Ontario Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. We did not hear back before we went to air.

[Music: Percussive]

Colorado town snowballs

Guests: Dane Best, Brooke Best

JD: In northern Colorado, in the small town of Severance, the winter months have been especially bleak for kids. Not just because of the snow — but because of what they haven't been allowed to do with it. For 98 years, Severance has had a ban on snowball fights. It was part of a larger ban on throwing stones or shooting missiles at people, animals, trees, or buildings. But then 9-year-old Dane Best decided to get the snowball rolling — and reverse the ban. And that's exactly what he did last night, at the Severance Town Board. We reached Dane, and with his mom, Brooke Best, in Severance, Colorado.

CO: Dane, I'm going to start with you. How did you first find out that throwing snowballs was illegal in your town?

DANE BEST: We went on a field trip to a town hall, and the mayor told us crazy laws. And he told us that we can't throw snowballs in Severance.

CO: And have you been breaking that law for some time now with snowballs?

DB: Yeah, like almost my whole life.

CO: You're nine, so that's a long time.

DB: Yeah.

CO: And, Dane, you made a presentation last night to the town board. What did you tell them?

DB: I told them what the definition of a snowball fight was, and how long the law has been in the book.

CO: Did you tell them why you thought it was wrong —why it was a stupid law?

DB: Yeah, I wanted to get outside, and I wanted kids to get off their Fortnite and go outside and play.

CO: I can hear your mom whispering to you. Brooke, are you there?

BROOKE BEST: Yes, ma'am.

CO: Now, you were there last night. Can you set the scene of what it was like when your boy was doing this presentation?

BB: Yeah, the town board called him up to the podium. And he had a little PowerPoint that he prepared. And he was very official; he had a clicker, and he clicked through his PowerPoint, and read all of his points that he wanted to get across. And then the town board and trustees asked him a few questions. And then afterwards, they brought it to the town board vote, and it was a unanimous vote that they would take snowballs out of the bylaw. And he had his law passed.

CO: Was there a crowd there? Was there a lot of members of the public?

DB: There was 150 people there.

CO: One hundred and fifty people! Dane, did they come just to hear you?

DB: Yeah, most of them.

BB: We have a pretty small town. So most of our board meetings you know have 10 to 20 people there to watch. So it was a really big turnout. There was newscasters from all over wanting to do interviews. It was a scene for sure.

CO: And, Dane, did they cheer you on? Did you get reaction from the crowd?

DB: Yeah, when they said that snowball law was passed, everyone started clapping.

CO: And how did you feel at that moment?

DB: Pretty excited.

CO: Did you think you were going to be successful?

DB: Yeah, I thought I was going to be successful. Because the board’s been wanting to change that law for like five years.

BB: Yeah, he had some good conversations with the mayor about the law. And during the field trip, the mayor kind of set it up as a challenge to the kids that they could change laws if they wanted to. So I think Dane felt like because the mayor had kind of placed it out there that he had a pretty good chance of getting it changed.

CO: Oh, and Dane, you like a challenge, don't you?

DB: Yeah, I love challenges.

CO: So now why was it so important to you to get this changed?

DB: I wanted to have a voice in my town. And I wanted to change a law. And it doesn't matter how old you are, you can change a law in your town. It doesn't matter what age.

CO: And did you want to throw snowballs?

DB: Yeah, I want to throw them at my brother.

CO: Throw them at your brother! How old is your brother?

DB: Four.

CO: So you were motivated. The big thing for you was that if you got this done, you could throw a snowball at your brother?

DB: Yup.

CO: Ah huh. And so have you had enough snow yet to do that?

DB: I got to throw one yesterday, but not at my brother — just in the street.

CO: OK, so you threw the first legal snow ball in your town?

DB: Yup, right after the meeting.

BB: Everyone that was in the meeting, we all went outside, and the town had a snowball that they had kept for him, and they let him be the first to throw a legal snowball in our town.

CO: Now, Dane, this law has been around for 100 years, right?

DB: Yup.

CO: How does that feel to change a 100-year-old law?

DB: Crazy.

CO: And do you have other laws you want to change?

DB: Yeah, you can only have a cat and a dog, and you can only have three of them.

CO: In your town — in Severance — you only have dogs as pets?

DB: Dogs and cats I meant.

CO: Okay. And what do you have as a pet?

DB: I have a guinea pig.

CO: So you have an illegal guinea pig?

DB: Yeah, and fish. You're not allowed to have fish.

CO: Are you going to change that law too?

DB: I’ll try.

CO: Okay, Dane, we'll be watching. Dane, thank you, and your mom, Brooke. Thank you both so much.

BB: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

CO: You too. Bye, Dane.

DB: Bye.

JD: That was 9-year-old Dane Best and his mom, Brooke Best. They were both in Severance, Colorado. Last night, Dane convinced Severance town council to reverse a 98-year ban on snowball fights. We've more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Indie rock]

Richest YouTubers

JD: Here's a montage of some of the top-earning people on YouTube.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A montage of popular members of the YouTube creator community]

JD: Those people are all on the new Forbes list of the highest-paid YouTube stars. Between June 2017 and June 2018, their incomes ranged from 14-point-5 million dollars to up to 22 million. And what we learned from this list: to be a successful YouTuber, it's best to talk quickly; to play video games; to yell a lot; and, most distressingly, to be a man — since everyone on the list is. There's one outlier. And he happens to be the Number One earner.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN: We’re in outer space! Aliens! Pew, pew, pew, pew!

JD: That's Ryan. He's seven. His YouTube channel has more than 17 million subscribers, and he made 22 million dollars over 12 months. The channel is called "Ryan Toys Review". 2 years ago, when he had a mere 5-point-5 million subscribers, the website The Verge summed up his offerings pretty well. Quote, "Ryan's channel has perfected the art of this strange new genre — a mash-up of personal vlog and 'unboxing' video, a blend of innocent childhood antics and relentless, often overwhelming consumerism." Unquote. The childhood antics involve Ryan actually playing with toys. The overwhelming consumerism involves the toys themselves — many of which are supplied by toy manufacturers, which pay Ryan to play with them. Furthermore, Walmart is now offering a line of Ryan's World toys, including action figures of Ryan himself. In terms of metaphors, Ryan himself becoming a corporate toy is perhaps a little too on-the-nose, and probably a little dark. So let's just try to enjoy the fact that the biggest player on YouTube is actually a smaller player — who actually plays.

[Music: Indie]

Part two: New Brunswick church money delayed, mussel artist

New Brunswick church money delayed

Guests: Stan, Robert Talach

JD: As children, they were sexually abused by Catholic priests in New Brunswick. And then nearly three years ago, 29 men finally reached tentative out-of-court settlements with the church, wherein it would compensate them for the crimes. Many agreed to the settlements because they wanted to move on with their lives. Today, that money still hasn't arrived. It’s because the New Brunswick Catholic church is arguing with its insurance company over who should pay, in court. We reached one of the victims who accepted the settlement. He's asked us not to use his real name. We'll be calling him "Stan". Also on the line is the lawyer for some of the victims, Robert Talach.

CO: Stan, what's it like for you to have to keep waiting and waiting for this compensation money from the church?

STAN: Well, it's a never ending process. I mean this was promised to us three years ago this February coming up. And I mean that it's been a lot of sleepless nights. I’ve lost 60 pounds here in the last few years. I'm stressed out all the time. I've a bit of anger issues that come along with it too, I've got to say. Luckily, I have a good support system here to help me out.

CO: And you say three years. When you made when you had this settlement with the church, what were the conditions? What was your understanding about when the money would arrive?

STAN: Well the money was supposed to arrive. When we made this agreement, it was based on that we would receive the money in a short period of time within a few months — three months or so. And here we are three years later, and there's nothing new. It's just never ending. It's a kind of mental anguish or what not.

CO: I guess mental anguish is something that you have been going through a lot since dealing with the abuse you suffered at the hands of members of the church. And I doubt that the money heals those wounds. But what would the cheque mean to you? What would it mean to have that money in your hands?

STAN: Well, it would mean I mean being able maybe to do a few things on what we call a bucket list that I've never been able to do in my life and put this behind us. It's hard on everybody around me. It's hard on the whole family. It's not that hard on me. It's hard on everybody.

CO: Your lawyer is on the phone. Robert Talach, are you there.

ROBERT TALACH Yes, I am.

CO: Mr. Talach, this delay comes down to a legal battle between the church and its insurance company I understand about who should pay? What's the issue there?

RT: Well, the insurance company originally argued that they weren't required to cover these losses because the church had some knowledge of the propensity of clergy to abuse. And they've also argued that the church's efforts to resolve these cases once the insurance was denied was inappropriate. Now, that New Brunswick Court of Appeal has ruled that the church was right on both counts, and the insurance company has to pay.

CO: So where does it go from here? How do you get this money from the church?

RT: Well, the insurance company still has a window to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, which in my opinion would be a Hail Mary, sorry to use the term. So we're sort of at the mercy of that battle between insurer and church because the Roman Catholic Church, believe it or not, is crying poor on these cases.

CO: We've heard this before though because if we look at Rome — or the Vatican — there seems to be great wealth. And yet, it's the dioceses that pay for these settlements, right?

RT: Right, it is. It's the individual dioceses — in this case, the Archdiocese of Moncton. But you know I just took a quick look, and they were able to raise about six million dollars for the repair of a single cathedral in the time we've been waiting for the payment.

CO: But their argument is that the insurance companies are supposed to cover these costs.

RT: True, but you know I would think an institution like the church would be able to raise some money in the in term to at least help out these gentlemen even slightly. I mean we're coming up on three years. We've been able to get a thousand dollar advance out of them per man, and my office matched that. So I don't think there's been a lot of initiative and innovative thinking on how to resolve this issue from the church, other than just to rely on the lawyers.

CO: What's happening elsewhere because this is not the only jurisdiction where the church's dioceses has been required to pay some kind of compensation. What's happening with their insurance companies — are they getting the money there?

RT: There are disputes all over Canada, and I practice in this area nationally. But I haven't seen anything as severe as in Moncton and New Brunswick. It's almost like a grudge match out there between the insurer and the church.

CO: Just to go back to Stan, as you know Stan, the archdiocese that Mr. Talach was just saying they're saying that they have they paid all the money they have, and the legal battle is now in other hands. This deals with insurance companies. What do you say to them?

STAN: It looks like they're handing it over to somebody else. And I mean they do have to take responsibility. I mean they do have to take responsibility, and do what they said they were going to do. So that small amount that we settled for three years ago is peanuts. Peanuts. So it's a little bit; It’ll help. But you know it's nothing to what we should be getting.

CO: The abuse you suffered at the hands of a priest is something had happened decades ago, but how does it still affect you? What has that done to you in your daily life?

STAN: Well, in my daily life, the abuse stopped at 12, and drugs started at 13, and haven't stopped since. Although alcohol is not the big thing in my life, but I do drugs and I smoke all the time. So that's my medicine. It helps me a bit to sleep; it calms me down. It's the only thing that helps me go day-to-day — because if I don't have that, I'm angry all the time. I can't deal with a lot of things. So this helps me through it. And a lot of things have happened in my life because of this. And I didn't know at the time those things were happening because of it. But now that I've been going through it again these years later, I realize that my life has been a screw up because of it. So now I've got to do what I can do to make things better.

CO: And how might this money make things better?

STAN: Well, like I said, it just helps a little bit day-to-day. It will help us get through. I mean I'm at an now — I'm in my 50s — so you just enjoy maybe a little bit of the rest. And, hopefully, it'll help a few things. And help me move on and put this behind us.

CO: Mr. Talach, any idea as to when Stan might get that compensation?

RT: Well, we should know more about mid-December because that would be the close of the window for the insurance companies to appeal. But you know I think there's really an onus here on the Archdiocese of Moncton to find some way to get all these gentlemen through this Christmas. They are an archdiocese of the largest and oldest corporation on this planet.

CO: We will leave it there. Stan, I appreciate speaking with you. And Mr. Talach, thank you.

RT: Thank you.

STAN: Thank you.

JD: That was lawyer Robert Talach — and a man we are calling 'Stan', who was sexually abused by a priest in New Brunswick when he was a child. We requested comment from the Archdiocese of Moncton. We didn't receive a response by air time.

[Music: Ambient]

For The Record: Graham on MBS

JD: Today, CIA Director Gina Haspel met with U.S. Senate leaders for a briefing on the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. And it seems that this briefing went a little differently than last week's briefing, held by Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. While General Mattis said there's no, quote, "smoking gun" implicating Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, Republican Senator Lindsay Graham came out of today's meeting saying there was instead a, quote, " smoking saw" — a reference to the tool allegedly used to dismember Mr. Khashoggi in the Saudi embassy in Turkey. Here's some more of what Senator Lindsey Graham had to say after today's classified meeting, this is for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

LINDSEY GRAHAM: Went into to the briefing believing it was virtually impossible for an operation like this to be carried out without the Crown Prince's knowledge. I left the briefing with high confidence that my initial assessment of the situation is correct. So here's my takeaway. That Saudi Arabia is a strategic ally, and the relationship is worth saving. But not at all cost. We'll do more damage to our standing in the world, and our national security, by ignoring MBS than dealing with him. MBS — the Crown Prince — is a wrecking ball. I think he's complicit in the murder Mr. Khashoggi to the highest level possible. I think the behaviour before the Khashoggi murder was beyond disturbing. And I cannot see him being a reliable partner to the United States. Saudi Arabian and MBS are two different entities. If the Saudi government is going to be in the hands of this man for a long time to come, I find it very difficult to be able to do business because I think he's crazy. I think he is dangerous. And he has put the relationship at risk.

JD: For the record, that was Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, speaking to reporters after a classified briefing with CIA Director Gina Haspel.

[Music: Ambient]

Mussels art

Guest: Gillian Genser

JD: Aching muscles, slurred speech, an overall feeling of terrible weakness. Those were some of the mysterious and troubling symptoms Toronto artist Gillian Genser experienced for roughly a decade. Doctors couldn't pinpoint what was wrong with her. None of the medications they gave her seemed to work. Little did Ms. Genser realize that the answer to what was making her sick lay right in front of her — in her studio. Gillian Genser recently told her story in “Toronto Life” magazine. We reached Ms. Genser in Toronto.

CO: Gillian, first of all, how are you?

GILLIAN GENSER: Huh, well that's a terribly loaded question. Honestly, I'm very unwell. But I'm trying to not think about that right now if it’s possible.

CO: I’m so sorry. As I understand, you first started noticing your health problems when you were working on a sculpture called “First Man”. Can you tell us about the piece you were working on?

GG: I was working on a piece made entirely from mussel shells. I had selected those shells because the striations of the shells — the movement of the shell — so beautifully replicated muscle fiber. It was a lovely pun to make his muscles out of mussels. So I began that piece, but I did start to become ill over time.

CO: And so just describe how you used these mussel shells? Did you grind them up?

GG: They were ground to be thin and shaped. It was countless trips back and forth to Chinatown — because normally in the grocery stores, the mussels are bagged. And I would always be looking for peculiar shells, ones that had specific shapes, specific colour, especially looking for the ones that were freaks — because I had decided to commit to making the body entirely out of the mussel shells. So the grinding and shaping of them produced a very, very fine particle. And I was constantly in full exposure to it. So I was working at a venting system, but this very, very fine dust is very sticky. So it would coat my arms. And even though I would try to sort of dust off in the venting system, when I would pull my hands out, I was loaded in the dust. And I would do, of course, what a child would do: I would wipe them all over my shirt and then just carry on to my desk with the piece.

CO: But you had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with that — that there was any toxic issue with those shells, right? I mean you were dealing with natural materials.

GG: Not just natural materials, but oh my goodness, we were supposed to be able to eat it — surely it must be safe. At the beginning, it was more than I lost my ability to sleep. I was hyper-stimulated, and the hyper-stimulation had physical manifestations. So I was vomiting all the time. I sweated and sweated so profusely. I was bathing many times a day, shaking, and no one could understand what had happened to me. I went to doctor to doctor, to doctor — and went for many, many months without sleep. I couldn't eat. It was a very bad time.

CO: How did you finally come to realize or learn that it was this material — it was mussel shells — that were poisoning you.

GG: To be fair to my medical doctors, they did always ask me are you working with anything poisonous? And I would always say to them oh no, it's completely natural. So they had assumed they had asked proper questions down that line. And predating this poisoning, I also had multiple autoimmune conditions. I was already not a well person. So it made it more difficult to make the diagnosis. It did finally occur to one doctor to send me to the Environmental Health Clinic at Women's College Hospital. They just did an automatic screen for heavy metals as a part of their procedure. And I got notified back right away that they had found high levels of arsenic and lead.

CO: Arsenic and lead! High levels of arsenic and lead throughout your system?

GG: Yes. Now, I knew was it in the house. Of course, my husband quickly went and got tested, and he was fine. But I did suspect because he'd always heard not to eat fish or shellfish too many times a week. We had this awareness that there might be some heavy metals. So I spoke to a doctor Sebastian Crist, who gave me a dressing down. He immediately said people don't realize how dangerous these things are. And he knew right away.

CO: Oh my! So people don't realize what? That we have high levels of toxins in our mussel shells and the mussels we’re eating?

GG: Well, it's not the eating. Now, there probably is some toxicity to the meat. But the shells — because he understood I was working with the shells. I have come across some academic articles discussing how they can use mussel shells to actually clean up heavy metals because they absorb it. And that mussels are often used as indicators in water to test heavy metal toxicity. It doesn't leave the shells.

CO: You made this work of art though — you made Adam — you crafted him out of these mussel shells. And it had all these toxins in it that are environmental pollution, right? This is not naturally-occurring things. These are things that well we've released into in the water.

GG: Yeah, I keep thinking about him. Because when I made him, he was made to be a re-expression of what should have been the human-first perception of the eco system of the world. You know it originally began as that terrible statement that man has dominion over all the animals. And I wanted to restate that to say that approach took us to a very bad place. And maybe what we should have been thinking is about our interconnectedness. And so I created this sculpture so that you could open him up, and inside all his internal organs are there. And they are all made from other creatures.

CO: Are you recovering? Are you going to get over this poisoning?

GG: I am spiraling down these days, to tell you the truth. I am doing very poorly, and I'm not really sure what light is at the end of the tunnel for me. Of course, heavy metals have a preference for the tissues of the nervous system, particularly the brain — and are implicated in things like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

CO: Gillian, I'm so sorry.

GG: Thank you.

CO: We are going to… we have some images of your creation, and we're going to post them on our website, so people can see this really, really beautiful piece that you've created.

GG: Thank you so very, very much. And

CO: And Gillian, thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry about your health.

GG: Thank you.

JD: Gillian Genser is a sculpture artist. We reached her in Toronto. And if you'd like to see photographs of her work — "First Man" or "Adam", and other works of hers — visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Rock]

From Our Archives: A Christmas Story

JD: When someone tells you to put your tongue on a frozen pole, here's the appropriate response.

SOUNDCLIP

KID: Stick my tongue to that stupid pole? That’s dumb!

JD: Yes, but that was, sadly, not Spencer Cline's response. The 11-year-old in Sandwich, Illinois watched the holiday classic "A Christmas Story". And a certain scene stuck with him. Much like his tongue then stuck to a fence pole, when he licked it last Tuesday. Spencer told The Aurora Beacon-News that his friend, Cole Leeper, thought he was just kidding around about the seriousness of the situation. And it was hard for Spencer, whose tongue was indeed frozen to a pole, to fully articulate it. Once Cole did clue in, he called an ambulance. By the time the emergency crews arrived, Spencer had detached from the pole. As he put it, quote, "I was trying to get it off, but I wasn't pulling. I was being gentle and freaking out. Some of my taste buds came off onto the pole." Unquote. While we don't have audio from that particular event, we imagine it sounded a little like this.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A kid screaming]

JD: The screams of a young Scott Schwartz, playing the character Flick in "A Christmas Story". Now, we spoke to Mr. Schwartz about that very memorable scene back in 2013, when a bronze statue commemorating it was erected in Hammond, Indiana. Here's part of that conversation, where Mr. Swartz describes how the tongue-stuck-to-a-frozen-pole scene was shot, this is from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT SCHWARTZ: There actually is a real pole there, but they put a piece of plastic over it that they painted to make it look like it was real. And they put a little hole in it about the size of your pinky nail, with a little tube, and then at the bottom of the tube, in the snow, was a vacuum motor — so if you put your hands on a vacuum, you just get stuck, and it’s the same concept.

CO: How many times did you have to do this before you got the scene done?

SS: The whole scene, the first time we did it, it's took twelve and a half hours. And the second time, it took eleven and a half hours.

CO: How many of these hours did you spend with your tongue in that hole?

SS: Oh, several over the course of the two days, you know? But every time they say cut, I can pull away.

CO: Yeah, right. Now, do you know if any kids were inspired by that scene to do it themselves?

SS: There have been many kids over the years. I normally get a call — at least one or two every year — from the Midwest, be it Chicago, Indiana, North Dakota, Wyoming, and they say hey, a kid suck his tongue to the pole; do you want to give a comment?

CO: But you know in the scene when you're doing it, and then you start to scream with the agony of it, you'd think that would discourage any kid from ever trying that, wouldn't you think?

SS: I would think so. But the intelligence of nine, 10, 11, and 12 year olds is not exactly that of an adult. So they still have to see if it really works.

JD: It depends on the adult. From our archives, that was actor Scott Schwartz, who played Flick in the movie "A Christmas Story". Carol spoke with him in 2013. Do you have your own story — as I do — about doing the same ill-fated, ill-advised, but irresistible thing? Or maybe it was one of your kids. We would like to know what happened. Call our Talkback line: 416-205-5687. email us: aih@cbc.ca to tell us your story. And if you’d like to hear our whole interview with Mr. Scott Schwartz and see that clip from the film, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Part three: Wrestling Canada report, whale songs

Ford presser

JD: Ontario Premier Doug Ford was getting slammed with questions today at Queen's Park — all about the province's new top cop. Ron Taverner was appointed Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner last week. And the announcement raised some eyebrows — namely because Mr. Taverner happens to be a close family friend of Premier Ford's. But then came a new report from iPolitics today, later confirmed by CBC News, that the Ford government had altered the job posting, which paved the way for Mr. Taverner — who held a lower policing rank — to apply for the job. The Ford government has since admitted that it changed the posting, but said it was to attract a wider range of candidates. Premier Ford held a last-minute press conference today. He was asked how much influence he had had in appointing a family friend to the OPP job.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: So let me be very clear on this, absolutely none. It was an independent panel made up of three people — an executive search firm. There’a Steve Orsini, the principal to the cabinet, and the deputy minister of that department. They came up with a panel, they interviewed people, and it was unanimous, unanimous decision. I told them very clearly I don't want anything to do with this whatsoever. But this is a man that has given 50 years of his life to policing. And the accolades across the province that I've seen are just overwhelming. I have final sign off on everything in this province. Every appointment in this province, I sign off — just like the previous premier, and the previous premier before them. Recuse myself for what? You know something? I go back to the three-person panel. I had zero influence. And no matter who it was, I would have accepted. I accept the professionals’ advice. And when they came up and said it was unanimous, I'll put Ron Taverner's qualifications against any police officer in this entire country bar none over anyone. Cynthia, Cynthia, I'm your friend. I'm your friend. You gotta be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me. Now, the official opposition is the media. You see it today. And good luck over the next three and a half years. I look forward to working with the “Media Party”. But thank you, I appreciate it.

JD: Ontario Premier Doug Ford, speaking to media about the appointment of OPP Commissioner Ron Taverner, who is a close family friend to the premier.

[Music: Indie pop]

Listener Response: Charlie the steer

JD: Move over, Dozer. I mean please. If you will that is because I certainly can’t move you if you don’t want to move. For the past week, we at "As It Happens" have been bringing you the stories of big steers. And then, the stories of even bigger steers. First, an Australian named Knickers — and then a Canadian named Dozer. Good news: now, both have competition — because we received this call to Talkback.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A phone message]

SIOBHAN POOLE: Oh hi there, this is Siobhan Poole calling from Cedar Row Farm Sanctuary, and we listen to you every night while we're doing our chores. And we have a steer that is rescued that is taller than Dozer and Knickers. We have Charlie, who stands about one hundred and ninety eight centimetres tall at the whiskers. And he was found running down a side road in February 2011. It was extremely cold. I was on my way to Costco to get coffee, and he was a week-old calf running down the road. Thanks so much. Bye bye.

JD: Thank you, Ms. Poole. That was a call we got on our Talkback line, putting Knickers and Dozer to shame to see a photograph of Charlie the steer, who is reportedly approximately three centimetres taller than Dozer. Check out our Twitter feed: @CBCasithappens. And we also received this e-mail from Armand Caputi: AIH is not broadcasting Fridays on KALW in San Francisco, and us listeners want to hear about all the giant cows. We want an ongoing commentary on who's the tallest, and any others that are in competition. Remember you are not on the air Fridays here, so all your juicy revelations must be held until Mondays. Make sure your cow announcements on are on days we can get it. Thank you for writing, Armand Caputi. We hear you, and we hope you got to hear this update.

[Music: Piano]

Wrestling Canada report

Guest: David Bennett

JD: "A culture of consequence-free sexual misconduct." And: "They do not see us as humans. There is no other profession in the world where you can treat people like that." These are just some examples of what coaches and athletes are saying about their experience of high-level, Olympic-style wrestling in Canada. They're included in a new report, which followed an in-depth, independent review into the coaching culture at the national governing body, "Wrestling Canada Lutte". Dozens of witnesses from the four major national training centres were interviewed. And they said abuses are rampant, and long-standing. David Bennett is the author of the report. We reached Mr. Bennett in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Bennett, when you say that Wrestling Canada Lutte permits — even condones — sexual relationships between athletes and coaches, what do you mean?

David Bennett: In their policy, they had a provision that allows anyone over 18 to have a relationship as long as they report it. But they had nothing that indicated who to report it to, or what happens if they didn't. So what it meant is coaches were having relationships with athletes, and there were no repercussions.

CO: And what did you hear from coaches and athletes about that — about the sexual culture in the sport?

DB: Just that it was so prevalent within the organization. I was quite surprised when I did this review to find how prevalent it was. There were relationships between coaches and athletes, staff members and coaches, coaches and coaches, athletes and athletes — which that relationship didn't concern me at all. But the other ones… and I was surprised within a week of doing interviews, I had a list of 10 different relationships between coaches and athletes.

CO: Good heavens!

DB: And I'm not just talking about the national level, but at the feeder levels.

CO: What's the feeder levels?

DB: That would be at varsity levels, or some of the clubs that provide coaches on an occasional basis to Team Canada.

CO: What ages are we talking about here?

DB: Well, I'm talking about people over 18. I didn't find any evidence of relationships with women under the age of 18. A lot of the athletes are older in women's wrestling — in their late-20s. But a lot of athletes started at a very young age. And one athlete described to me being an event — one of her first international events — and one of the staff affiliated with the team coach put their hand on her leg at a dinner. And she said I froze. I didn't know what to do. I knew it was the good friend of the coach. I was concerned for my future. And everybody said they thought I would be a bitch if I did something.

CO: There is a code of conduct though that states that if the participants are older than 18 in this relationship. But there is a, quote, “significant imbalance of power — that a written disclosure is required, and appropriate action will be taken.” What does that accomplish?

DB: In my view, nothing. First, it’s condoning this. Secondly, it's never happened that there's been a written report. I understand there may have been one as a result of this review, but it's never taken place. And it's not about a moralistic issue, Carol. What it's about is a conflict of interest. The coaches and the staff have incredible influence on whether an athlete will be on the Olympic team. When they're in this position, any relationship is a conflict. Because the perception can be if a coach is having a relationship with an athlete that the other athletes on the team are disadvantaged in terms of either coaching attention or opportunities to perform or be selected to a national event.

CO: Another part of your report identifies problems in coaching that involve physical abuse. And you mentioned something called “Shark bait” or “king of the mat”. What is that?

DB: It's an interesting training method that they've used for ever in the sport. A wrestler will get in the middle of the mat, and they have to wrestle the individuals on the team. And whoever wins gets to leave the mat, and the loser goes in the middle. What is done sometimes though is in a way where an athlete gets forced to stay in the middle until the point they're in tears. And what I found is in some centers, they use that as a form of punishment. And you could start an athlete against a very strong, heavier weight than in their own class. And sometimes being put in when they're hurt. Another centre, one of the coaches uses it, explains to the athlete look you're in the final match, and you're in the last minute, and you're really exhausted, and you have nothing left, and that's what I'm getting you trained for. And when the athlete is finished, the other athletes pick them up and congratulate them on fighting hard. So one’s used it in a very positive way, and one’s used it as a negative way to bully or beat an athlete into submission.

CO: And you focus in other parts of the report on other kinds of psychological abuse. I mean this physical abuse that you just mentioned sounds psychological as well. But what I understood is that coaches believe that you have to break down an athlete in order to build them up. At least that's what they claim. Where does it cross the line in your view within the Wrestling Canada world?

DB: And one thing I want to point out is not all coaches are doing this. I don't want to tar every coach in the country with the same brush. But there is a real belief that you've got to break them down and build them up. But these coaches don't have training in that. They don't have training in psychology. They don't have training in sports psychology. A lot of them are mirroring what they were taught when they were athletes 30 years ago — 25 years ago. And I heard of a lot of athletes who ended up being very broken by the time they left the sport. They said they broke me down, but they never built me up.

CO: Is it worse for women in the sport?

DB: I would say so. There's a lot of sexism, which as someone from outside the sport I didn't understand. Because the women have had such great success for our country, and they're the ones winning the medals. But there is also a lot of comments made about women. Wrestling as a weight class sport, and women who are having difficulty meeting their weight are called fat, lazy, some are being called sluts. There is a lot of language used that wouldn't be acceptable in any other context.

CO: So what do you recommending? What do you think has to be done? What are the principal things that have to be done to change this culture in Wrestling Canada Lutte?

DB: the principle things are to provide training for all of the coaches — mandatory moving forward. How to coach a modern athlete, how to properly use psychology. That there's differences between coaching men and women. That bullying coaching is outdated, and is not a success. There is a real fear of reprisal that needs to change, where people feel they can come forward with claims. The only time I am aware of an athlete coming forward about being sexually harassed, the staff member they went to — unbeknownst to them — was in a relationship with the coach that they were complaining about.

CO: I can imagine that many of our listeners will have their own stories about this — not just in wrestling, but in other sports of this nature. And thank you, Mr. Bennett, for telling us about your report.

DB: Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity.

JD: David Bennett is the author of a new report on the coaching culture at Wrestling Canada Lutte. We reached Mr. Bennett in Ottawa.

[Music: World music]

Budgie rescue

JD: When nature called, Bernadette Noumann answered. This call, specifically, was that of a budgie. A few days ago, the Edmonton woman discovered a bunch of them flying around in the cold — and decided to help. Here she is explaining what happened to CBC Edmonton's Mark Connelly.

SOUNDCLIP

BERNADETTE NOUMANN: Well, I was just driving home. And I usually take my dog for a walk in the off leash area. And as I was walking, I heard that sound, and I thought boy that doesn't sound like sparrows. So I look up in a tree, and there is about six or seven budgies sitting in a tree. And I thought holy crow! What are those guys doing out here? And you know there's a lot of snow. It was cold overnight. So I went home. And I have a little parrot, so I have bird paraphernalia in the house. So I grabbed a little butterfly net, and I went out with this little portable backpack that we carry him in. And I was able to catch one. So I thought well, if I can catch one then that means that we can probably catch the other ones. So then I called Meikas Birdhouse house, and they were really helpful. They posted on social media — their Facebook and whatnot — that there were budgies found in the area. And if anybody had time if they could come down and help catch them. And within an hour, a gentleman showed up — the nicest guy — and he was climbing trees and fences. And we knocked on everyone's door to see can we go in your backyard; there’s budgies in the tree. And lot of people didn't believe us. We stayed out the whole day. And then a lovely lady showed up. She brought a cage so that the birds could go into if they wanted to. You know it was wonderful to see all these people. And another lady came with food, and she dropped it off at my house to say you know here's help to feed the little guys. And it was awesome just to see people in the community — and they don't even live in this community — they just saw on social media and came down to help.

MARK CONNELLY: How many birds did you end up catching?

BN: We caught nine of the twelve. Now this morning, the peanut gallery is going crazy down there. They're eating like it's going out of style. And everyone looks good.

MC: Are they in your house?

BN: Yeah, yeah, they're in my house.

MC: Ok, and what's going to happen with them next?

BN: Well now, I'm going to call the Humane Society. You know they're really sweet little birds. I don't think they'll have a problem with finding homes for them. So fingers crossed.

JD: That was Bernadette Noumann recounting her recent budgie-rescuing adventure to "Edmonton AM" host Mark Connelly.

[Music: Ambient]

Whale songs

Guest: Michael Noad

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: I don’t speak whale]

JD: Not my stomach! That was the song of the humpback whale. Now, scientists have known for a long time that Eastern Australian humpback whales love a good tune. And they also like to change their tune. Now, after looking into over a decades' worth of whale songs, experts believe they know how this change happens. Michael Noad is a professor at the University of Queensland. We reached him in Brisbane, Australia.

CO: Professor Noad, how often do whales change their tune?

MICHAEL NOAD: It varies a lot as to how often the change their tune. I guess in small ways they do change their tunes just about every year. So year upon year, upon year whales in most populations do change the songs slowly over time. And we call that a song evolution. But one thing we've picked up in the Eastern Australian population over the last 20 years or so is that every few years, the song changes completely and remarkably. It's just completely replaced by a new song in a very dramatic fashion. And so we call this cultural revolution to differentiate from the cultural evolution. And they seem to happen every two or three years.

CO: Completely different song? And so you’ve actually recorded it, and you've seen that these whales in this area are singing a different song?

MN: That's correct. And we know from previous work that that song tends to come from the whales off the west coast of Australia. And it seems that it's a bit of a Goldilocks situation in that the West Australian whales are just far enough away from the East Australian whales to normally have different songs. And they evolve their own songs quite separately. But every few years, there seems to be enough contact between the two populations that the song is able to jump from one population to the other. And that's when we get the song Revolutions.

CO: So east meets west?

MN: In a sense, yes.

CO: Is it just the eastern population of whales that take on the song with the westerners, or is it, or do they swap, or what happens?

MN: Well, we've found no evidence so far of the song going the other way from east to west. It always seems to go from west to east. But the interesting thing is that it doesn't stop there because the East Australian whale then pass the song on to populations in the South Pacific. So in New Caledonia, which is not terribly far away from East Australia and Tonga, and eventually right across the French Polynesia. But we can we can trace these song lineages all the way from Western Australia right across the French Polynesia over a period of about five years. And we've still got parts of that song radiating right across almost an entire ocean basin over multiple years. It's an extraordinary event.

CO: But if the eastern whales are taking on the song of the western westerners, are the westerners getting it from further west? Are they evolving or revolving as well?

MN: We don't think so. We haven't done a lot of work on the West Australian whales yet. But as far as we can tell, the West Australian whales just do their own thing. And that means — as any other humpback population — their song is just constantly evolving and changing from one year to the next. But in that fairly small evolutionary sense, they don't seem to be subject to these sort of drop-in song events from other populations.

CO: And we should point out we’re talking about male whales here.

MN: We are so. So of the singers are the males, and the mature males. And the males sing predominantly during the breeding season, during the migration to the breeding grounds, and then even more so on the actual breeding grounds themselves. So because it's the males, and because they're singing predominately in the breeding season, the most widely held view about the function of song is that it's a mating call of some sort. What we don't know very well though is whether it's aimed at females in terms of trying to impress the females and attract females? Or whether it's aimed more at other males in terms of sort of some sort of male dominance call? If it’s like the antlers of a deer or something like that, where the males are sort of acoustically jousting with each other and holding territories. It's difficult to get this sort of data for animals in the ocean. But it's an intriguing signal, especially the way it keeps changing over time. It's a fascinating phenomenon to study.

CO: But I would think that you could tell the difference between a love song and a warning?

MN: I think you're absolutely right. So I tend to come down on the side of the love song if you like. I can't see why you would evolve such an elaborate hierarchical structure simply to growl at another whale. You know, every other animal does male dominance sorting in a very forthright manner shall we say. And the signals are usually short and unambiguous. So I personally hold the view that it's all about female choice, and about female attraction.

CO: It sounds quite complex. Far more complex than human beings in a bar, I would think? So much more interesting too. Now, we played a bit of a humpback song before we came on. And we’ll just play it again so people can hear this humpback.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Nope! I still don’t speak whale!]

CO: Oh my gosh. Do you know the words?

MN: They're lovely sounds, aren’t they?

CO: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful!

MN: And people often say those really high sounds that must be a different whale. But no, it's all just one whale. So the males are very you know they're great virtuosos. They can producers you know these low growling rumbling growls and groans and moans. But also those very high frequencies — sort of fluted sounds or violin sounds as well. They're all produced by the same animal, and all part of this extraordinary sequence of sound that as we were just saying before is probably to attract females, and impress the females.

CO: Well, as far sharing and learning, we might share and learn a bit from them, I think?

MN: Yes, well it's certainly an extraordinary example of social learning in animals. And, of course, if we study social learning in animals, that helps us to understand how humans are extraordinary examples of social learning. So much of what we do through social learning from language to almost every other aspect of our cultures — and so it's really intriguing and studying humpback in the light of understanding the evolution of social learning and culture in human beings.

CO: Professor Noad, it is fascinating. And I really appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

MN: It’s my pleasure.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Michael Noad is a professor at the University of Queensland. We reached Professor Noad in Brisbane.

[Music: That’s the way it is, sung by Celine Dion]

Celine Dion clothing

JD: Yes, it is. When Celine Dion tells you that's the way it is, you believe her. But you try to anyway, even if it's not totally clear what when you want it the most. There is no easy way out means. So when Celine introduced her new line of clothing — her new line of gender neutral children's clothing — CELINUNUNU, this month. We believed in her. Or we tried to. Even if she launched the brand with a video that wasn't totally clear.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: Our children. They are not really our children. As we are all just links in a never ending chain that is life. For us, they are everything. But in reality, we are only a fraction of their universe. We miss the past. They dream of tomorrow. We may thrust them forward into the future. But the course will always be theirs to choose.

JD: Right. I don't get it. In the video, Celine walks into a neonatal ward, and she blows these shiny fragments into the room. And suddenly, all the babies are wearing monochromatic black and white patterned onesies. So you know it’s odd. But I assume she knows what she's talking about. Well, Monsignor John Osseff also assumes he knows. He looks at those dark prints — and sees the Prince of Darkness. You see, Monsignor Osseff is an exorcist, and runs an institute that trains exorcists. And he believes Celine's new gender-neutral clothing line was inspired by...Satan. In an article in the National Catholic Register, the Monsignor says, quote, "I'm convinced that the way this gender thing has spread is demonic. It's false. I don't even know how many genders there's supposed to be, but there are only two that God made." Unquote. You know what they say about how, when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail? Well, I guess when you're an exorcist, everything looks like demonic possession. Because we have — or we are beginning to have — a much greater, more nuanced understanding than ever before of the spectrum of what the Monsignor refers to as “this gender thing”. And in this case, the devil is not in the details.

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December 04, 2018 episode transcript

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