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The AIH Transcript for November 29, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Attorney for the worse. Donald Trump's former lawyer pleads guilty to lying to Congress about plans to build a Trump Tower in Moscow raising new questions about the president's ties to Russia.

JD: A Highness pressure situation. Canada imposes sanctions on the Saudis it says were responsible for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Our guest says that list should include Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

CO: Good clean fund. The Ontario government's climate change plan includes money for companies who reduce emissions but the province's environmental commissioner isn't buying it.

JD: Will launderers never cease. After a large scale money laundering prosecution in British Columbia falls apart -- the province's attorney general demands to know how a case like that can falter before making it to trial.

CO: Who loves ya, Babylonian? Our guest does -- because he has recruited his students to produce the first ever film in that not quite dead language which no one has spoken for well over two millennia.

JD: And... someone let the cattle out of the bag. First we heard about 'Knickers' the ridiculous huge Australian steer and now it turns out we've overlooked a Canadian steer who would overlook him. As It Happens. The Thursday edition -- radio that guesses these are the best years of our livestocks.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Michael Cohen's new guilty plea was a twist no one saw coming: national security expert

Cohen plea

Guest: Mark Zaid

JD: Today reporters asked President Trump about his former lawyer and self-described 'fix it guy' Michael Cohen.

SOUNDCLIP

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: He's a weak person and by being weak unlike other people that you watch -- he's a weak person and what he's trying to do is get a reduced sentence so he's lying about a project that everybody knew about.

JD: The project President Donald Trump is talking about is the so-called 'Moscow project' a planned Trump brand property development in Russia. Earlier today it was announced in a New York federal court that Michael Cohen had cut a plea deal with special counsel Robert Mueller's team -- admitting he lied to Congress about the details of that potential real estate deal. Mark Zaid is a lawyer who specializes in litigation relating to national security and international transactions and crimes. We reached Mr. Zaid in Washington D.C.

CO: Mr. Zaid how significant are the admissions of Mr. Cohen today?

MARK ZAID: Well it's another significant movement forward in this case that brings it ever closer not just to even President Trump but also to his family members because in the plea agreement, in the background information that was filed in support of it, it makes it very clear that Michael Cohen not only briefed the president or at that time soon-to-be nominee but also his family members about a deal in Russia that continued in negotiation into almost the summer of 2016.

CO: What have you learned in the statement of Mr. Cohen's admission about that Trump Tower Moscow arrangement that as you say discussions went right into the summer of 2016?

MZ: Well I think one of the things that's fascinating is that there were apparently substantive conversations about having Donald Trump actually go visit Moscow including Putin post nomination, post-convention, Republican convention. Now it didn't happen. But up through in June of 2016 there were serious conversations about a visit to Moscow or to Russia. And of course it contradicts everything that Donald Trump has been saying about his knowledge of his personal financial investments and dealings with Russia.

CO: But Michael Cohen goes beyond that. It's not just that the arrangement was for a business deal of a hotel -- it was beyond that. It was political, right? He was negotiating or talking with key players in Moscow about some assistance in the election. Can you tell us about that?

MZ: Yes I mean there are emails. I mean this is what happens with government investigation especially when we're dealing with false statements that is usually because there is documentation that exists that contradicts other statements that someone makes. And in this case there are a number of emails that came to light through the investigation that reflect that the conversations with Russia were going to be 'everything was on the table' I believe some of the language was. And there was clear insinuation that this was going to possibly go beyond a Trump hotel or a Trump building or Trump Tower in Moscow and whether or not the Russians could even do anything to help. And of course Trump will say well still there is no proof of collusion or anything I did and of course collusion is not a legal term in the United States -- it would be some sort of conspiracy offense. But again we're going far more to what were the dealings and contacts between Donald Trump, his inner circle, and the family members -- with respect to not just financial dealings but also politics. And you know remember June of 2016 is when this infamous meeting in New York City happened in Trump Tower between Don Jr. and Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner for a short bit about possible political involvement with the Russians and which is in dispute which obviously we are still waiting for that shoe to drop.

CO: Mr. Cohen had previously said that he never actually had a conversation with a key member of the Putin administration a man named Dmitry Peskov. He's now changed that information. What we have now learned about how much contact he had with Mr. Peskov?

MZ: Well apparently he had quite a number of contact -- sometimes through intermediaries and it further shows not just the depth of contact with Russian government officials in the inner circle of Vladimir Putin but that it continued most importantly through the political process when Trump was running for the nomination that literally almost to it. And that's why this type of plea is so important in the sense that the special counsel is saying Michael Cohen is being truthful -- which of course Donald Trump attacks, but there have been other people that have been interviewed. Other family members have been interviewed -- whether by the special counsel or by the oversight committees in the House or the Senate. What did they say about the same string of events that Michael Cohen is now pleading guilty to of having lied before Congress?

CO: Mr. Trump is saying that Michael Cohen is lying about all this. But why was he lying before? What was he trying to protect?

MZ: Well supposedly at least from what we have seen from the documents that have been released -- it was done in order to protect the president. And I should say at least in looking through the information that was released that doesn't look on its face that any of these negotiations with Russia about possible business dealings that anything around those were illegal or problematic -- it was politically problematic. And the illegality of the conduct arose from Michael Cohen lying about it before Congress which is a federal offense and in fact there may be other instances of it. There is language in the plea agreement that talks about that by pleading guilty he is absolved of any other false statements he might have made to Congress. Now that is somewhat standard language so it doesn't mean that there were but it does indicate that there might have been other statements that he lied about and those can be used against other individuals that may be why we don't read about it today because those other lies can be evidence against other individuals who are connected to this whole situation.

CO: All of this is damning except where's the connection between this and Mr. Trump? How do we know that Donald Trump actually knew about any of this?

MZ: We'll have to wait and see. That'll either come through other documents. Right? We've not seen any documents yet that have Trump himself on them. But right now we have at least from today an indication that when Michael Cohen said he had only spoken to individual one who is clearly Donald Trump in this charging document that he'd only spoken to him on three occasions that that was a lie. Meaning he had spoken to him on more than three occasions. So we'll have to see whether or not there are any text messages or emails that either Donald Trump is part of or reflect acknowledgement of conversations meeting 'oh here on this date I spoke to Mr. Trump and he said the following' anything that would indicate that Donald Trump was actually part of the conversations at the time -- we don't know.

CO: I think we'll be talking again Mr. Zaid. Thank you.

MZ: Anytime. Thank you.

JD: Mark Zaid is a lawyer who specializes in litigation relating to national security and international transactions and crimes. We reached Mr. Zaid in Washington D.C. and we have posted more on this story on the As It Happens website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Ontario climate plan

Guest: Dianne Saxe

JD: Ontario's PC government rolled out its new climate change policy today. The Ford government says it is going to meet the same standards as the Trudeau government in Ottawa without imposing a price on carbon. Environment Minister Rod Phillips made the announcement in Nobleton, just north of Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

ROD PHILLIPS: When it comes to climate change the people of Ontario have already made significant progress -- with greenhouse gas being reduced by 22 percent since 2005. Working together we will continue to address these greenhouse gas emissions. Ontario's commitment is to reduce our emissions by 30 percent from 2005 levels by 2030. This aligns Ontario to Canada's commitments under the Paris Accord.

JD: That was Ontario Environment Minister Rod Phillips announcing his government's new climate plan today. Minister Phillips office did not respond to our request for an interview but we did hear from Ontario's independent Environment Commissioner Dianne Saxe who was appointed by the previous Liberal government. We reached Commissioner Saxe in Toronto.

CO: Commissioner Saxe -- Minister Phillip says his government is going to meet Ontario's commitment under the Paris Accord without imposing a carbon tax. How much credit do you think you should get for that?

DIANNA SAXE: Well not much. First of all he is imposing a carbon tax. He's copying the federal carbon tax for industries and imposing it on large Ontario industries. And the second thing is that although he is matching Canada's current commitment to the Paris agreement that commitment is nowhere near strong enough to meet the Paris goal of keeping temperature within something that we can live with. In fact what Ontario is doing is we now have moved from a climate target that was based on science to something that's only about one third as ambitious.

CO: But if Ontario is going to meet its goals -- and so the cutting of carbon emissions will be 30 percent. So why should Ontario do more? Why don't we say well the other provinces have to pony up?

DS: We're in a situation where everybody has to do what we can. For some provinces such as Alberta emission reductions are really challenging because they have an oil based economy. What Ontario is talking about now is we're increasing our emissions and where they would have been in 2030 by the output of three provinces. It's a really big difference. And the other piece I'd like to point out is that with existing technology Ontario could have met its original target. And instead what the government is proposing is they're relying mostly on what the federal government is going to do, what municipalities are going to do, and on technology it doesn't exist yet.

CO: What is, at this point in Ontario, the largest emitter of greenhouse gas?

DS: It's you and me -- it's transportation. It's all of us driving around and there is really nothing effective in the plan that is going to reduce that.

CO: And what we heard during the campaign Mr. Ford said that he was going to reduce gas prices at the pumps by about 10 cents a liter. We've seen the cancellation of the electric car incentive program. Where does that leave us as far as cutting emissions from our transportation?

DS: Well you know it leaves us doing little or nothing. I mean in the government's plan they claim that they're going to see big increases in people buying electric cars but they're not going to give people any encouragement or reason to buy those electric cars. I guess they are hoping that the federal carbon tax will do it.

CO: But we just saw in recent days General Motors declared that that's the future. That's the direction they're going in manufacturing. So where does that leave Ontario if it is cleaving to the traditional forms of the I guess the combustion engine?

DS: It makes sense for automakers to make electric vehicles which are the cars of the future in jurisdictions that support a strong market for those vehicles. Ontario was the kind of market until the end of June -- it's not now.

CO: You said just at the beginning that there is a carbon tax or there is carbon pricing in this plan. I mean the Ford government has been campaigning on the idea that they were going to kill carbon pricing -- that it was bad for the economy and for jobs. They've teamed up with other provinces saying this is a disaster -- that Justin Trudeau's plan for carbon pricing will is destructive to the economy. But you're saying it's actually here.

DS: Yes it is -- only for the industry but yes. They're copying the federal carbon tax for industry and they're doing that I assume so that the province will control what happens to the money.

CO: Is the government then being disingenuous when it says that it's getting rid of carbon pricing?

DS: I can tell you what the facts are and the facts are that the federal carbon tax is being copied in this plan for industry.

CO: And so will it meet the criteria that the government, the federal government, has for saying you have a similar program in place to what we want provinces have?

DS: That's their intention -- we'll have to see the details. But yes the intention that was expressed is that they want to be like Saskatchewan -- and Saskatchewan has similarly a federal carbon tax on their industries and therefore the federal government itself doesn't need to impose it on the industries like also in Saskatchewan -- Saskatchewan has not done anything to put a price on fuel use for transportation and so the federal price supplies will have the same thing here.

CO: So I can hear you're trying not to be political but this is odd. I mean they are campaigning on saying that they are defying the Trudeau plan, right?

DS: I agree that they are copying part of the federal plan at the same time as they're attacking that plan. They're also counting on the results of the number of federal programs -- in their plan they're claiming credit for the results of those federal programs.

CO: All that doesn't add up though in your view to being able to cut the emissions according to the amount we're supposed to or we should in order to meet the Paris goals.

DS: Absolutely not.

CO: What would have to happen to do that?

DS: Well as I've reported to the legislature we were on the right track until the end of June. The cap and trade program was starting to work. It takes time for a 1.9-billion dollar program to change the direction of an 800 billion dollar a year economy which is what we have in Ontario -- but it was working and it was working well all over Ontario.

CO: Just finally, you [chuckles] you're not in this are you? I mean your office is going as commissioner of the environment, right?

DS: So the legislature -- the government has proposed legislation to merge my office into the auditor general's office and to reduce our scope. My excellent staff is going to be transferred to the auditor general's office. As to myself personally they've put in a statute that they can break my contract without paying me any compensation but more than that I do not know.

CO: But what would that do? If we don't have you, we don't have you or some Ontario Environment Commissioner, what do we lose?

DS: We lose an independent voice telling truth to power. You know what the job that we do is to try to provide a fair non-partisan factual floor so that public debate is based on facts instead of on the claims of politicians which are not always factual.

CO: We lose exactly what you're doing here right now.

DS: Yes. I would encourage your listeners to go to our website eco.on.ca -- we have got a wealth of information on a whole group of environmental energy and environmental topics and we do that for you so please read it.

CO: Okay but we need a voice and you're the voice we're going to lose right?

DS: That's what it looks like.

CO: Ms. Saxe thank you.

DS: Thank you.

JD: Diane Saxe is Ontario's Environment Commissioner. We reached her in Toronto. Again we did request an interview with Ontario's Environment Minister -- we got no reply.

[Music]

Dozer the steer

Guest: Karl Schoenrock

JD: Knickers the Steer is a big boy -- but only if you don't look at the bigger picture and that is the picture of the bigger steer. By now you will have seen the photograph of Knickers going around. Knickers is an enormous steer. A male steer from Australia standing head and haunches above a herd of much smaller cows. Now I'm really -- I'm not doing the photograph justice and if you have not seen it you should check out our website cbc.ca/aih. And listen Knickers is great but for sheer bulk -- Dozer... is greater. Dozer is a steer in Steinbach, Manitoba. He lives on an animal sanctuary owned and operated by Karl Schoenrock. We reach Mr. Schoenrock in Steinbach.

CO: Karl it doesn't seem possible that Dozer could beat out Knickers of being the largest steer. How big is he? How big is Dozer?

KARL SCHOENROCK: Well at first we thought he was only just over probably 6'3" because when we got him a few months ago we were told that he was measured a couple of years ago -- he was 6'3" -- and yesterday when some of these other media came down we thought 'what the heck let's bring out the tape measure' because we just haven't thought of it before. And he was 6'5" so we were kind of blown away. Nothing super official, like Guinness official, but that's what we got.

CO: So does indicate that Dozer is still a growing boy?

KS: He is yeah. He's only 6 years old so yeah he's still growing.

CO: [Chuckles] Was that alarming to learn?

KS: It was actually -- it kind of blew us away with a little bit we were like 'oh really? He is that big?' We were kind of shocked.

CO: Okay [chuckles] we have got this statistics on Knickers and it does seem that your Dozer is well just a few centimetres taller. But Knickers is 6 foot 4 inches and so you're saying that Dozer just 6'5" right?

KS: Yeah he was just a little over but you know he wasn't on the flattest ground. You know I don't mind sharing the limelight and even if he's 6'4" we'll say and we'll match and that sounds great too.

CO: But you got to admit though when you look at that photo of Knickers -- he is extraordinary [chuckles]. I mean he is there towering over this herd of brown cows. When you saw that photo what did you think?

KS: Oh I was blown away. I at first thought it was photoshopped. But then looking closely and growing up on a very farm all my life I looked -- 'okay those cows aren't you know older, more mature, full size, cows. They look a little bit younger.' So then I was like okay that could be true.

CO: And does Dozer tower over your other cows?

KS: Oh by far. Yeah.

CO: Do they call him sir?

KS: [Chuckles] No actually Dozer is quite gentle giant. We have a couple of horses in the same pen with them and they kind of push him around a little bit. And he allows it -- he's just that type of guy that he's very very calm.

CO: Well that's interesting because Knickers is apparently a bit of a handful.

KS: Oh yeah not our guy Dozer and that's due to his mom, Rebecca. She is the one that actually saved him from a beef farm in Alberta. And she is only 5'4" or 5'5" and got him when he was very young so she towered above him and then now the roles have reversed and he just really outshines her.

CO: We have to point out that Rebecca is not a cow [laughs] -- this is a woman who saved...

KS: Yeah sorry I say mom because yeah that's what my wife likes to call her.

CO: But does that mean that Dozer was destined to become hamburger then?

KS: He was. Yes.

CO: And how did she end up saving him?

KS: She I guess knew the owners and she would always go out to the pasture to read and just relax with the animals and Dozer is the one that befriended her. So she started becoming friendly with him and visiting him over and over and pet him and everything else and he has just -- [inaudible] since then.

CO: What did you think when she showed up and asked you to take over the care of Dozer?

KS: I was super excited. I grew up on a dairy farm so having a Holstein steer that is just a giant -- I was super excited. And then when I first saw him I was giddy. I couldn't describe it anymore because he's just so massive. His head is so huge compared to anything I've ever seen before. We have our livestock sanctuary and all the animals [inaudible] come are -- some are destined for slaughter, for meat, and we go to auction at different times to save whichever ones that we can to give them a full life.

CO: And this leads to the animal sanctuary you have in Steinbach then?

KS: Yes.

CO: You know it's interesting though because these stories about Knickers and Dozer people are fascinated with the stories and these enormous steers. Why do you think that is? Why do you think they capture our imaginations?

KS: It's larger than life. You know what people know or might not know about the animals -- it depends if they've been around them or visited them at petting farms or the such, to find something abnormal something bigger and then to find that if they are relaxed and calm and people can touch them and pet them and then all of a sudden they develop a connection and that connection goes with a lot of people and you know sometimes their theories change on and you know if they should be eating meat or maybe they should reduce it and that's the only thing that we hope for.

CO: And is Dozer pretty cuddly?

KS: Oh he is. He is a smusher. If you start scratching him and he'll just push into you just to get more scratches.

CO: Is it true that your wife -- Dozer will lay down beside her?

KS: Yeah. Hard to lie down next to Dozer -- you can lean up against him a little bit because you don't want to get too low just in case he wants the roll.

CO: It's a great story Karl, thanks.

KS: No problem.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

KS: Bye bye.

JD: Karl Schoenrock is the proud guardian of Dozer -- a very tall steer at an animal sanctuary in Steinbach, Manitoba. For photographs of Dozer, who is in fact taller than its Australian counterpart Knickers, go to our wensite -- you truly should, cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: A Cambridge lecturer and his students shot an entire film in ancient Babylonian

Saudi sanctions

Guest: Errol Mendes

JD: For weeks now Western governments have been under pressure to take action against Saudi Arabia for the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Today, Canada announced its first step and that is sanctioning 17 Saudi nationals suspected of having a hand in the killing. At the G20 summit in Argentina -- Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland was asked if she thinks the measures will have any effect on the Saudi regime.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: What Canada says Is noticed in the world and Canada's voice has real weight. Canada is rightly seen as a country that stands for the rule of law. A country which is careful and thoughtful. A country that does not act rationally. A country that takes actions based on a thorough investigation, a thorough factual basis. And at the end of the day -- a country that is prepared to stand up for human rights and another important element here is to stand up for journalists and for freedom of expression.

JD: Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland speaking at the G20 meeting in the Argentina earlier today. Under the Canadian sanctions -- 17 Saudis will have their Canadian assets frozen and will not be allowed to enter the country. Errol Mendes is a professor at the University of Ottawa and the president of the Canadian branch of the International Commission of Jurists. We reached Professor Mendes in Ottawa.

CO: Professor Mendes what kind of a reception do you think that Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, is getting at the G20?

ERROL MENDES: I think he should be getting a bit of a cold shoulder from everyone. I doubt whether he'll get it as much from President Trump but hopefully all the others especially I think President Macron will probably show some degree of basically saying you know 'what have you done?'

CO: And what has Canada done because we just heard Chrystia Freeland referring to which is that Canada has decided to put impose sanctions on the Saudis who have been named so far as possibly being responsible for the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, the journalist. So what do you make of those sanctions?

EM: Well I'm on record as saying we should have done this some time ago and not be seen to be following others. Now given the fact that they have as I recommended some time ago that they should have had the Magnitsky sanctions against the perpetrators. And I'm glad we now have 17. Now it should be noted however that some have not been included. One of the main apparent planners al-Qahtani who is a senior official in the Saudi government has not been included and neither has the deputy intelligence chief al-Asiri has not been included.

CO: Are you among those who wants to see the Crown Prince himself being accused and being on sanctions list?

EM: Well this is where you will see some major dilemmas being faced by most Western countries -- yes there is a lot of trade and business that goes between many Western countries including Canada and Saudi Arabia but at a certain time I think the country should basically say in this sort of horrible situation can we ignore the fact that this gentleman, if he is indeed the main planner of this very very brutal killing, should be sanctioned? In my view, yes absolutely.

CO: You mentioned the Magnitsky Act which is the piece of legislation that Minister Freeland is using here which is the long title is the justice for victims of corrupt foreign officials act. So what exactly can that actually do against -- to sanction these individuals?

EM: Well the Magnitsky Act basically says that for those who have been involved in major human rights and anti-corruption situations you can levy individual sanctions against them -- Travel bans, asset bans, and potentially business dealings bans with them. The immediate reaction of some may say well how many of the 17 individuals who have been registered do business in Canada? Well these sanctions also operate as a global stigma against the country which perpetrates these horrible acts and against the individual so that for example they will be barred from traveling to many different countries if many other countries adopt the Magnitsky sanctions and moreover ultimately this has a chilling effect on whether other countries want to do business with the country that permits such brutal killings.

CO: Okay but if these individuals -- there's no indication that any of those in the list actually hold Canadian assets. You say there's a stigma attached to being named by them -- I mean these are people who are accused of having brutally murdered a man, cut him up into pieces and disposed of him -- I mean really? You can shame them by putting them on a sanctions list?

EM: When I was referring to stigma I'm referring through these sanctions with so many of these individuals named the stigma then attaches to the country.

CO: Just to stick with this for a second. Why would it bother them at all if you're going to throw sanctions at them from a country they have no dealings with? I mean it doesn't seem to matter to them if they are -- if it's true that they did this -- that they should be involved in such an act, why would it matter to them that we sanctioned them?

EM: Well put it this way we have done the same type of sanctions against Russia. We've done the same types of sanctions against Venezuela. We've done the same type of sanctions and now against Myanmar. And now many of the individuals we have been listed at 53 are excluding the ones which we've just listed for Saudi Arabia -- many of them, perhaps the majority of them, do not have those sanctions those assets in Canada -- the issue that I'm trying to put forward is that when you look at those countries the stigma that now attaches to those countries through these individual sanctions has a major impact on the ability of other countries especially those who value these fundamental norms of civilized behavior will impact on the entire country let alone just those individuals.

CO: Does it really matter though if President Trump doesn't -- if the United States doesn't take a side with this? President Trump has been saying that Saudi Arabia he believes. He believes the Crown Prince when he says he wasn't involved in it. And finally he said well I guess we'll probably never know what really happened. So if President Trump is never on side, if he's willing to meet with the Crown Prince wherever -- then what difference does it make?

EM: Well you've raised one of the ultimate issues facing the entire Western democratic world so to speak and that is are we going to move towards the same type of behavior and attitudes of Russia, China, other countries where essentially there is nothing more important than transactional interests. And I hope that the majority of Western countries and I hope perhaps the majority of Americans do not accept that and ultimately there will be an American response which says no we do not treat the entire world as a transactional matter where only economic trade and business self-interest appears and our fundamental values as members of a civilized global community will not be basically dispensed with for these transactional interests.

CO: And yet we are still going to sell armored vehicles to Saudi Arabia. What do you make of that?

EM: I'm on record for saying that we should basically stop that. I was very pleased to see at least Chrystia Freeland is now saying that maybe we should suspend while we do this review of the possibility that Mohammed bin Salman was involved and perhaps stop future one. So at least we're starting to accept that we should actually take that strong measure and say look it is not a transactional interest that we value above all else.

CO: We'll leave it there. Professor Mendes thank you.

EM: You're very welcome.

JD: Errol Mendes is a professor of constitutional and international law at the University of Ottawa.

[Music]

Uninvited Guests

JD: Two weeks later and a Montreal couple still has no idea how a group of strangers gained access to their apartment. Earlier this month Adam Mongrain went out with his wife to a friend's house -- when they got home they discovered a dozen people partying in their apartment, eating their food, drinking their booze. The people claimed that they had booked the apartment through a short term rental website called booking.com. But Mr. Mongrain says they also walked away with thousands of dollars in stolen property. Here is Adma Mongrain's conversation with Mike Finnerty this morning on CBC Montreal's 'Daybreak.'

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: As soon as we stepped in we heard voices in the stairwell. We knew that the apartment below us had been recently converted to a short term rental so we weren't so surprised. But when we passed their door on the second floor and walked up to ours we could hear the voices were coming from our home. When I stepped in there were about 12 people partying, there is no other word, in my place and total strangers -- no one I had ever seen before. You know it's hard to convey the extent to which the place was trashed.

VOICE 2: What were they doing when you were walking in?

VOICE 1: They didn't even pay attention to us so much like -- the air was filled with smoke talking and laughing and joking and it was a very festive get together.

VOICE 2: Drinking?

VOICE 1: Drinking, of course.

VOICE 2: And were they eating your food?

VOICE 1: Yeah they were. And it's extremely weird.

VOICE 2: What kind of things were they eating?

VOICE 1: Well they had gotten out all the snacks and all the alcohol they could find in my place -- and that was on the living room table. But they were also cooking with the food that they found in the fridge and the freezer. But you know every drawer, every closet, had been opened and ripped apart and they did find everything valuable that we did have.

VOICE 2: Did you realize when you walked in that they were also thieves?

VOICE 1: I did not. I just locked eyes with someone I said 'what are you doing here?' And they said 'we're here with Booking.' And I said well that's not the case.

VOICE 2: Booking.com -- short term rentals below you.

VOICE 1: That's what we found out after that they also rented out the apartment below mine through Booking and I said well that can't be the case you are in my home. Please leave. And they didn't argue -- like no one produced a receipt. No one said well we have nowhere to sleep and they just all gathered their things and left.

VOICE 2: They gathered your things.

VOICE 1: No they didn't. My things were already gone that's the thing. Because we didn't see them pick up anything when they got their coats. As they were leaving and we see that the stuff is gone they're still in the place when we figure out the laptop is missing. So we start telling them give us back the laptop. And no one's replying. And then we realize there's 12 of them and there's only two of us.

VOICE 2: You called the police?

VOICE 1: I called the landlord first and I said did you actually rent out the apartment below us tonight? And she said yes -- I said please forward every information you have on that person to me and then I call the police.

VOICE 2: And the big question is, how did they get into your place?

VOICE 1: We don't know.

VOICE 2: And we talked to the landlord and she told us that she doesn't even think she has a copy of your key and she certainly didn't give it to them and she says the police checked that the keys that were there didn't open your door.

VOICE 1: Right. And I have to believe her.

JD: That was CBC Montreal Daybreak host Mike Finnerty in conversation with Adam Mongrain earlier today.

[Music]

Babylonian film

Guest: Martin Worthington

JD: The premise of Martin Worthington's movie isn't odd. It's basically a revenge flick set a couple of thousand years back. What is unusual is the dialogue.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speaking in Babylonian]

JD: That was a brief clip from 'The Poor Man of Nippur.' I have no idea what was going on because The Poor Man of Nippur is believed to be the first film ever made in Babylonian -- a language that has not been spoken for 2000 years. It was performed and produced by Martin Worthington and his students at the Assyriology department of Cambridge University in England. We reached Martin Worthington in Cambridge.

CO: Martin who is the audience for a movie in a language that is no longer spoken?

MARTIN WORTHINGTON: That is a very interesting question. To some extent we're going to see. It's already been seen by that 10,000 people and it's growing so clearly there's a lot of interest out there. I think that humans are fascinated by language. Language is one of those things that people come back to again and again a bit like dinosaurs and Egyptian mummies. And so a film in an ancient language is simply something that has the power to intrigue people -- make them curious about previous world and past experiences that humans have had.

CO: It really is fascinating to listen to -- just the rhythm and the sound and of course we can follow along with the subtitles. But how did you actually manage to get the film written? How was it scripted in Babylonian?

MW: So what we did is we followed the wording of a Babylonian story. So we haven't made the story up. There is a tablet excavated in southeast Turkey which bears a period a 160 lines long which is the poem that today we called a The Poor Man of Nippur. And so what we did is we simply followed that wording. We occasionally threw a couple of things in for fun. So example at one point it says that all the people who run out of the mayor's house and so we simply had each of them shout something -- [inaudible] shouts fire because he has no clue what's going on -- that he needs to understood the situation. But apart from these little addendum it really is the text from this tablet excavated in southeast Turkey.

CO: But how difficult was it for the actors and the people in it who had to do their lines in Babylonian?

MW: Well the way this arose is we had in fact been reading The Poor Man of Nippur as part of the Assyriology teaching at Cambridge University and it was one of the students who said this is a fun story it would be nice to dramatize it. And one thing led to another and it was actually Kathryn Stevens of Durham University who first said well actually we could find the money for this. And so she became co-producer. And a few months later there we were running around Cambridge and other places with costumes and a goat. So the students had already read it as one of their so-called 'set text' that they did their exams on. And we did the syllabus week after the exams. I think having to act it and speak it out loud of course is something you don't normally do in your academic studies so that posed a fresh set of challenges which I think they rose to admirably so I'm terribly proud of them.

CO: Was it really difficult for them to learn to speak Babylonian?

MW: Well with these so-called dead languages there's always the question of how you teach them. I'm very much at the persuasion that a language is a language -- you know ancient or modern or whatever. And you know Babylonian once upon a time it was being used to conduct international negotiations. It was being whispered marketplaces at night. And it was being used to buy shoes in the morning. So I've always tried to get my students to speak it out loud. I tell them to go home -- read it out loud, read it to each other, say the words because that will help you to learn it. So making the film did not I think come as a complete shock to them.

CO: But if there are no native speakers of Babylonian how do you know you got it right?

MW: [Chuckles] We can't be absolutely certain we've got it right. What we can do is we can say that the sounds of Semitic languages of which Babylonian is one a lot with Hebrew and Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopian and others -- tend to be fairly stable. So we already have a fairly good guess of the sort of sounds we expect to find Babylonian. But the atom bomb is that we actually have transcriptions of Babylonian words into the Greek and Hebrew alphabets. So using all these different things together we've ended up -- and this isn't me I should say -- this is 150 years of Assyriological scholarship which is still continuing. But we've got something I think which literate Babylonians would understand and recognise as their language even if Europeanism might give us away.

CO: Can you speak to us in Babylonian?

MW: Umm... well one of the best bits is [speaking in Babylonian] Those are two of my favorite lines.

CO: What have you just said to us?

MW: Oh yes [chuckles] sorry. [Repeats first line in Babylonian] Can either mean, 'in the morning takes. Or it can mean by means of incantations.' Then [repeats second line in Babylonian] can either mean 'at night or it can mean by means of demons that have to do with wind.' And then [Repeats third line in Babylonian] can either mean 'he will rain down upon you a rain of wheat' -- meaning wheat is going to fall from the sky or it can mean 'he will rain down upon you rain which is as thick as wheat' -- meaning rain in which the rain drops are as tightly packed together as grains in ear of corn. And so in one message what's raining down from the sky is bread cakes and wheat and in the other version of the message by means of incantations and demons -- he's going to write down one heck of a lot of rain.

CO: It's a pun and so we can have our first Babylonian pun on As It Happens this is the highlight of the show's history. [Martin laughs] Just quickly Martin tells us the story -- The Poor Man of Nippur is kind of a parable or an allegory. What's the story there?

MW: It's a folktale. So man goes to the mayor from whom he wants help and assistance because he is very poor. He takes him a goat -- it is the last thing he has. The mayor takes the goat but gives him nothing in return except bone and gristle -- and has him thrown out. At which point the man picks himself up and tells the gate keeper 'you tell your master for that one wrong he did to me, I will repay him thrice.' And it's the motif of the three-fold revenge.

CO: Thank you for not having a spoiler in this [laughs] there's a bit more -- lot more twist of plot. But Martin it's fascinating and we'll tell people how they can find it on YouTube. It's good to talk to you thank you -- even in Babylonian [chuckles].

MW: Thank you so much have a lovely day. Goodbye.

CO: You too. Bye.

JD: Martin Worthington teaches Assyriology St. John's College Cambridge. We reached him in Cambridge. For more on this story including a link to The Poor Man of Nippur check out our website cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

David “The Dream” Defiagbon

JD: He fought his way out of poverty and onto an Olympic podium. Canadian boxer David Defiagbon died last weekend. He was 48 years old. Mr. Defiagbon grew up in Nigeria in a single room house with a mud floor. He arrived in Halifax in 1990 with a single bag, but lots of athletic potential. And after becoming a Canadian citizen he won a silver medal at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. It was the last medal Canada won in the sport. CBC Radio spoke to Mr. Defiagbon at the gym as he was training for that medal winning performance. Here's part of the documentary that aired on 'Morningside.'

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I have been training really hard -- waking up early in the morning going jogging and I don't see anything -- there's nothing that is going stop me.

[Hitting speed bag sounds]

VOICE 1: Like I have over 250 fights and I think I scored more than 70 knockouts in my career.

[Heavy bag sounds]

VOICE 1: I'm not a fighter, I'm a boxer. Boxer is the guy who takes his time, keep his hand up, move around, stay away from trouble -- you know be a little bit patient in the ring. Because those most other boxers they're not pigeons. When you strike them when you hit them with right hand -- they will try to hit you back as quick as possible. But if you hit me with a good right hand -- I'm going to just keep my hands up, move around, take my time. You know? But I'm going to pay you back for sure. [Chuckles] When I was very young, I was 12 years old, and I was going to school -- people I would go to school with some of them would take money from me, my lunch money. And they beat me up. So my friend he's a boxer. So any time he's around me those guys they don't come to me to take my money -- they don't come to harass me. So I went to the stadium -- I talked to the coach, the coach said you want to box? I said yeah. So he trained me every day. So when he trained me -- I was doing boxing, I trained for like two-three months. So I quit. So I said all I needed just for self defense. Those guys come around me next time to take my money so I can be able to fight back. After I quit boxing for a couple months -- he said I should come back to the gym that I'm going to be successful in boxing. I didn't believe him. You know when he came -- my parents didn't even want me to box at all. [Chuckles] They said no boxing -- you know I should go to school. So my coach said I can go to school -- school come first but you know I should do boxing. Boxing can make me go to places I've not been before in my life.

JD: From our archives that was Canadian silver medal winning boxer David "The Dream" Defiagbon on 'Morningside' in 1996. Mr. Defiagbon died last weekend of heart failure. He was 48 years old.

[Music]

Part 3: MPP Amanda Simard leaves Doug Ford’s caucus

B.C. laundering follow-up

Guest: David Eby

JD: It was a mammoth money laundering investigation launched in 2015. And in 2017 criminal charges were laid in the RCMP's "Project E-pirate" which was focused on organized crime allegedly laundering money through B.C. casinos. Now those charges have been stayed and the trial which was scheduled to start in January has been called off. And British Columbia's attorney general David Eby is not happy. We reached David Eby in Vancouver.

CO: Mr.Eby have you been offered an explanation as to why these charges have been stayed?

DAVID EBY: I'm expecting to have a conversation with my federal counterpart today. I don't know if he'll be able to offer me any information, but currently I'm waiting for a briefing and I hope I can get one from federal prosecutors or RCMP or the political level on exactly what happened here.

CO: And as you know all too well this was a very large scale criminal investigation into alleged organized criminal networks laundering money, drug money, and using casinos in part. What kind of message does it send that this could fall apart -- this prosecution?

DE: Well for listeners outside of B.C. who might not be familiar with the issues. I mean people in this province are reading almost every day in the media -- allegations of large scale transnational money laundering in casinos and real estate -- tied to international crime groups importing precursors for fentanyl and methamphetamine. The actual investigation here I'm told by Dr. German who's doing a review for the province on this very issue that this was to his knowledge one of the largest if not the largest anti-money laundering investigation and attempted prosecution in B.C. history if not Canadian history. So very significant that this thing collapsed on the eve of trial. I don't know what went wrong. I certainly don't blame police I don't blame prosecutors. I don't blame the federal government. What I want, what we need, what British Columbia needs, is an explanation of what happened and how can we fix that because something obviously went very terribly wrong here.

CO: You mentioned Dr. German, Peter German, he's a former deputy commissioner of the RCMP. And his report was on money laundering in British Columbia casinos and he said that the province's dysfunctional regulatory regime for casinos enabled large scale transnational money laundering by organized crime that had tied to the trade and opioids. And we spoke to you about that -- about this dirty money report back in June. Can you remind people what the crucial points are?

DE: Yeah in terms of our casinos -- starting on a larger scale in about 2012 and continuing through right till the end of 2017 organized crime groups in B.C. and an increasingly tied to international groups discovered that they were able to launder large volumes of cash through B.C. casinos by providing gamblers particularly from mainland China that has a currency export restriction providing them with cash that gamblers would then walk into the casinos and the gamblers would pay for the cash by transferring money outside of Canada to pay for it. And the estimate was that in excess of 100 million dollars was laundered through casinos in this way. There were videos of gamblers bringing in reusable shopping bags filled with 20 dollar bills pummeled with plastic bands. There is simply no question that this money was related to crime and specifically drug dealing and the import manufacture of drugs like fentanyl. And now there have been reports of police intelligence reports that say that a billion dollars in real estate in a single year in the high end sector in British Columbia is tied to this kind of laundering as well. So it's a very big deal that this trial fell apart and of significant consequence for British Columbians who are really hoping that we can get this -- weed this dirty money out of our economy. If we can't get a prosecution done how are we supposed to deal with it.

CO: And you just mentioned how the scope has increased or widened to look at drug money laundering through the real estate market in Vancouver area principally. So there's a new review that Mr. German is doing that includes looking at that real estate but also horse racing and luxury cars.

DE: That's right. There have been a couple journalists who have been really leading the charge on this Sam Cooper now with Global -- Kathy Tomlinson Globe and Mail. And others who have been plugging away at this and unfortunately maybe it tells you something about the state of enforcement and regulation in relation to financial crime in British Columbia and perhaps Canada that journalists are uncovering this information as opposed to regulatory bodies.

CO: But as you point out I mean this is the information is coming through some really good enterprising reporting that's going on in British Columbia showing that organized crime, transnational organized crime, is using your province to launder drug money and of course the drugs are a problem in themselves -- the opioids that they're selling, using those proceeds and then laundering it to these various operations -- it must really be shaking confidence in government, in policing, in the ability of a province to deal with this kind of crime.

DE: Yes certainly in my office I'm increasingly hearing calls for a public inquiry to figure out why it is that this activity is taking place with apparent [inaudible]. And I have taken that message from British Columbians to the federal government -- I took it to St. John's a couple of weeks ago to the federal provincial territorial meeting where it was on the agenda to let other provinces and the federal government know why British Columbia needs support here and why it's critically important to address this issue of our province apparently being used as a base for transnational organized criminals to manufacture and distribute and to launder the proceeds of their crimes related to illicit drugs including fentanyl. And it was a very big deal and we're hopeful for good federal support on this. And you know I felt like we were making some good progress -- Bill Blair has it in his mandate letter to work with us -- he's the Federal Minister responsible. There's this police work that apparently being done about what's happening in the real estate market and then you get news like this that the prosecution falls apart and it feels like two steps back. So we need to figure out what happened here and move forward.

CO: You heard from Brad West who is the mayor of Port Coquitlam and he is accusing provincial and federal governments of being gutless in handling the opioid crisis and its connection to global organized crime and money laundering in the casinos and real estate. And he's calling for -- what they had in Quebec, the Charbonneau Commission, to have a Charbonneau commission style public inquiry into the connections here. Is that something you'd consider?

DE: Yeah Mayor West and a number of other British Columbians are certainly calling for a public inquiry and to look at all aspects of this. One of the big barriers to doing that was that there was an active investigation and prosecution taking place and obviously there was no desire to interfere with that in terms of court processes. But I have to say with the prosecution collapsing one of those major barriers to that kind of process has gone away. The Premier, John Horgan, he's kept the possibility open of a public inquiry if necessary and certainly the calls are increasing given the fact that this prosecution has failed so publicly.

CO: All right we'll leave it there Mr. Eby thank you.

DE: Thank you Carol.

JD: David Eby is the attorney general of British Columbia. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music]

Heard across half the country

JD: It can be a lonely old job hosting the "North Country" morning show on CBC Radio out of Thompson, Manitoba. Host Ramraajh Sharvendiran is a one man show -- he does it all, as he broadcasts to multiple communities in the region. Yesterday morning however Ramraajh's audience was larger than usual -- a lot larger like nationwide-ish -- well half the nation anyway. Because someone hit the wrong switch somewhere in the bowels of CBC here in Toronto. And Mr. Sharvendiran's show was sent out to stations from Winnipeg to Vancouver for nearly an hour. David Gray host of "The Calgary Eyeopener" asked Ramraajh if he had any idea that he had been broadcasting to half the country.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: No. So I'm in a single person here up north in northern Manitoba. So I appeal to like 20 different communities up here in the north. And while the show's going I'm kind of not in any line of communication with anybody else right. It's just me, the listeners, and my guests. And so as soon as the show is finished I get a call from Winnipeg being likely 'did you hear the news?' And I'm like where would I have heard the news? And they said [chuckles] you were hitting a few million people possibly in western Canada. And I was just like what? What does that mean? You're joking.

VOICE 2: Well our listeners noticed and they appreciated your conversation. They learned about the weather in Flin Flon which was surprising to some. And they also heard about your humane society and they were very -- what did you learn and what did you tell them about the Humane Society?

VOICE 1: So the Humane Society up here how a break in July and so we caught up on that and they're doing a grand opening tomorrow -- a re-grand open because they have been going through some renos (renovation). So it's just like a small community story up here. But I guess it's a bit out of context for folks in the rest of the country.

VOICE 2: Well it is now a topic of conversation in Calgary, Vancouver, Edmonton -- you name it. [Ramraajh laughs] Do you know why your show ended up being broadcast across the west?

VOICE 1: I think the universe has a soft spot for me and it is trying to teach me some lessons so it decided 'hey you know what? You know you're doing this by yourself in the morning. Why not mix things up a little and let you embarrass yourself through the rest of the country? So that's what happened there.

VOICE 2: No you didn't embarrass yourself at all. You did extraordinarily well and I think perhaps not knowing may have helped. When you found out were you pleased? Were you surprised? How would you describe your reaction?

VOICE 1: Well honestly the first thing I said is like 'couldn't it have been yesterday's show?' Because I felt like I had a couple of slip ups today. All right well I guess you know the rest of Canada is going to hear about interest stuff going on there.

VOICE 2: This my friend is how a star is born.

JD: That was Ramraajh Sharvendiran the surprise host of morning shows across western Canada speaking with 'Calgary Eyeopener' host David Gray. And you can hear Ramraajh on 'North Country' yourself -- weekday mornings in northern Manitoba, CBC Radio 1.

[Music]

Frank Ostrowski

JD: 30 years after he was sent to prison for murder, Frank Ostrowski, has finally seen his conviction overturned. The Winnipeg man spent 23 years behind bars for the murder of a drug dealer named Robert Neiman. In 2009 he was released as the Justice Department began a review of the conviction. And right after his release Carol spoke to Frank Ostrowski. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANK OSTROWSKI: I'm happy. And I'm just letting all the [inaudible] so to speak you know -- can't believe it's true but it's true and I'm being driven around Winnipeg here, seeing the sites, seeing how Winnipeg has changed so much. And going off to my daughter's house to see my granddaughter and a little dog by the name of Cleo.

CO: That's one of the conditions of your bail is that you live with your daughter. So how is your family feeling today?

FO: Fine. They're happy. My daughter is very out of jail and I'm looking forward to having my first Christmas at home in 23 years.

CO: You never denied that you were involved with drugs but you always insisted for all these years that you had nothing to do with this murder. How did you keep that going? How difficult was it to keep fighting this conviction?

FO: If you are not guilty you keep fighting. You know you don't give up. Someday something's going to come out that is going to clear you. It's going to open up some doors that will show the public, show judicial system, that they're wrong. And it did.

CO: But what do you draw on from yourself to do that?

FO: The very fact that you're not guilty and you don't want people to think you're guilty and you just keep on fighting. You don't give up.

JD: That was Carol in conversation with Frank Ostrowski after his release from prison in 2009. Mr. Ostrowski's murder conviction has now been officially overturned.

[Music]

Amanda Simard out

Guest: Jeanna Charlebois

JD: Amanda Simard has been butting heads with her party over cuts to Francophone services in Ontario. And this morning she announced that she is leaving Doug Ford's Progressive Conservative caucus to sit as an independent. Earlier this month the Ford government announced it was scrapping among other things a planned French language university in the province. Ms. Simard spoke out publicly. She refused to stand and applaud her own ministers. And today the Franco-Ontarian MPP voted with the NDP to condemn the cuts. Jeanna Charlebois is the outgoing mayor of Hawkesbury -- that is one of the communities in Ms. Simard's riding in eastern Ontario. We reached Ms.Charlebois in Hawkesbury.

CO: Mayor Charlebois do you think Madame Simard did the right thing?

JEANNA CHARLEBOIS: Yes I do think she did the right thing. I don't think she had a choice. She believed in her decision that it was unacceptable to cancel the proposed Francophone university and the Office of the language Commissioner -- French language commissioner, and she stood up for it and was not appreciated I believe by her fellow members in the Conservative caucus. So she left.

CO: But she stayed within the caucus trying to press the issue and she did. She got the government to reverse its decision to cut the province's French language commissioner. Doesn't that show that she was effective in caucus and that maybe for your right she should have stayed?

JC: I'm reading in the paper this morning different things-- did she leave? Was she pushed? I don't know. This is something that will come out with the days go on. She did a great job with the office but the office of the commissioner is also going to stay under the ombudsman's office. It's not going to be a separate office as it was intended.

CO: But you also have a Minister Caroline Mulroney who will be now looking after the interests of Franco-Ontarians is...

JC: Where was Mrs. Mulroney in the last week while Madame Simard was out there fighting openly for the re-establishment of the plans for the French university? Where was Madame -- where was our minister? Her parliamentary assistant was there. But where was Madame Mulroney?

CO: The creation of a French language University in Ontario -- it would have been in Toronto, why is that so important?

JC: It's important because you have -- well first of all it's not an English-French thing. Let's straight off the bat. In my mind it's not us against them. It's a question of as a founding nation Francophones have the right to have their education in French. Now the University of Ottawa. Yes it's a bilingual university and all is great. But in some cases English courses had to be cut back and whatnot so they couldn't get courses in English and the same thing on the Francophone. So are they blaming each other because they're not getting -- I don't know but I've heard things and now we'll have a Francophone university that all courses will be in French. It won't be an issue. And it won't be finger pointing. And it's our right to have it. Mr. Ford you know he was duly elected with a very strong majority. And I have no problem with that. It's hard -- it's very hard to do cuts. Where do we cut? People around him said well here is a place where we can cut. You know maybe they should have added but before we do let's meet with the Francophone community and see if there's something we can do at least on that. But that wasn't done.

CO: But some have argued on this show that the cut was so small -- the amount of money they would have that they would get from cutting that office is small and that it seems to have been for ideological reasons and not for budget cutting reasons. What do you say to that?

JC: Well you know I'm going to stick with he -- you know he said he was going to do cuts -- I'll stick with that but I'm just saying he cut and he should have consulted.

CO: I just want to read you a quote from Melissa Lantsman who I don't know if you've met her she worked closely with the Doug Ford team during the PC election campaign. She tweeted this: 'Liberals promised a French language university that we cannot afford and was never going to get built. Ford Nation canceled that unicorn university.' What do you say to that?

JC: That's not very nice [chuckles]. That is not very respectful.

CO: Do you think the Liberals were really going to build it or do you think -- what she's saying is that it was never get built anyway that that was an empty promise.

JC: She says that. And I'll tell you I believe that it was going to be built.

CO: Ms. Lantsman also says that Simard quit the PC caucus over this likely before getting fired. And don't forget she says she would never have won without the party.

JC: Oh that's nasty.

CO: But is that true? That Madame Simard elected because for years it's been Liberals elected in that riding and they switch to Conservatives. Was it because of Ms. Simard or was it because of Doug Ford?

JC: Oh my God! To suggest that -- that's nasty. My gosh. I mean I can see that coming out of Trump's camp you know -- but that's Americans. This is not the Canadian way to do things. I'm not happy to hear talk like that. Not at all. Ms. Simard is the member of provincial parliament for the Glengarry-Prescott-Russell riding. She's elected. [Inaudible] something that happened that she didn't agree with and she stood her ground. If that is not the right thing to do -- well the person who made these comments maybe should be thinking about her future behind the Conservative party.

CO: She's not with them right now. She has moved on since the election campaign.

JC: Well moved on thank God because it's not people like her that are going to make Ontario stronger.

CO: Just one final question about your riding that you are in that Amanda Simard is in -- you voted Conservative for Doug Ford. This is a reversal because usually it's a Liberal voting riding -- so do you think people are regretting their vote for Doug Ford and the Progressive Conservatives?

JC: They're not regretting their vote for Madame Simard who was under the conservative banner. What I'm hearing is people are proud of what she's accomplished. I'm not going to be negative towards Mr. Ford and the government. I'm not going to take the route that that other lady took. I'm just going to say that Madame Simard stood up for what she believed in. She has integrity. She's honest. And I admire her very much as does the Francophone community.

CO: Mayor Charlebois I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JC: Well thank you dear and have a good afternoon.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

JC: Bye bye.

JD: Jeanna Charlebois is the outgoing mayor of Hawkesbury, Ontario -- and that indeed is where we reached her.

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November 29, 2018 Episode Transcript

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