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The Current Transcript for November 1, 2018

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOCIE 1: If you would have been in in the county [unintelligible] I would have been in jail.

VOICE 2: In another court someone may not have cared as much.

LAURA LYNCH: A young man whose life could have taken a very different turn gets another chance. The prosecutor, the judge, the public defender, court staff and the interim chief of police have something in common in that courtroom; they are all African American women and that is a first for the United States. Our producer Peter Minton takes us inside this new city and it's ground ground-breaking criminal justice system in his documentary Georgia Grace, first up today. After that:

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AUDREY PARKER: I instantly about my funeral organized I got my cremation purchased. I got my obituary written. I planned my funeral almost like a wedding.

LL: Audrey Parker is going to die today. She is matter of fact about it because she has decided to have a medically assisted death, now. Parker did want to wait longer but she felt she couldn't because of the prohibition on so-called advance directives. The Federal Government is reviewing that and, today, so are we. Then, in an hour, the power of an image.

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These images are a reminder that famine has not gone way that in some instances right now famine can be a manmade catastrophe.

LL: Declan Walsh and Tyler Hicks went to the frontlines of the war in Yemen. But perhaps the most striking photograph Hicks took for the New York Times is away from the battlefield; the haunting image of a starving child. Today we'll speak with Hixon his photo journalist colleagues Lynsey Addario and Finbarr O'Reilly about the power of a photograph and the toll it takes on them as they seek to expose the human cost of war to the World. I'm Laura Lynch sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

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How a group of African-American women decided to do justice differently in Georgia

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LL: With the U.S. midterm elections just days away. We will soon see whether predictions that this will be the year of the woman at the ballot box turn out to be true. There are a record number of women running for office in the states. And one of the races to watch is for the governor of Georgia. It is a tight race but the Democrat Stacey Abrams stands to make history if she wins. She would be the first black female governor in U.S. history. Our producer Peter Mitton recently traveled to Georgia to visit one city there that's already making history of its own. This is his documentary: Georgia Grace.

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OFFICER LEWIS: South Fulton 345

PETER MITTON: It's Saturday night in South Fulton, the newest city in Georgia.

OFFICER LEWIS: I'm here with the numbers. I'll be around the 29, 29.7. What's the department number.

PETER MITTON: I'm riding along with Officer Lewis Carter as he patrols his beat. It's [00:02:59] a sprawl of suburban highways and cul de sacs, liquor stores and fast food restaurants all in the shadow of Atlanta.

[Dispatcher]

PETER MITTON: We're just south of Interstate 285 [13.1] which according to the Vice Guide to Atlanta means we're outside the perimeter, a place where quote "You don't need to visit". But that's where this new city starts.

[Crowd arguing Indistinctly]

PETER MITTON: Arriving at a call for a birthday party that's gotten a little out of hand, Officer Carter is like an old friend.

[Indistinctive chatter]

PETER MITTON: He policed this neighborhood for a few years but he's in a new uniform now. [00:03:49] The city of South Fulton only incorporated last year. New cities have been forming in the county land around Atlanta lately for economic and some say racial reasons. It started in the predominantly white areas and by the time South Fulton incorporated it took what was left over. Leaving it with jagged, zigzagging borders and a population that's 93 percent black. According to one city councillor. It's the blackest city in America. And it's facing the same problems as cities right across the US.

OFFICER LEWIS: This is where we get a lot of gang activity, a lot of drug activity, drug sales, a lot of shootings. Are you familiar with the Bloods and Crips?

PETER MITTON: Sure.

OFFICER LEWIS: Well out here they've got the Crips. It's really populated with those Crips.

PETER MITTON: The same old gangs might be out on the streets of this new city, but there is a new face to law and order here.

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NEWSCASTER: The city of South Fulton now is the first in the country where every top person in every criminal justice department is a black woman. Channel 2's Justin Wisfon who is live there.

PETER MITTON: This is from the local news in Atlanta this past summer.

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NEWSCASTER: One of Georgia's newest cities is now old enough to make history. In the city of South Fulton, every position in the criminal justice department is now led by an African-American woman.

SHEIL AROGERS: This was something that happened organically. But it's a wonderful thing.

NEWSCASTER: Sheila Rogers is the chief of police.

PETER MITTON: A justice system and is led entirely by black women had never happened anywhere in the U.S. And it didn't happen here by design. These were just the top people top jobs as the new cities staffed up.

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We bring our experience as African-American women.

PETER MITTON: But once the team was in place, people took notice. I learned about South Fulton when a certain arresting image popped up in my Instagram feed this summer.

LADAWN: The picture became a thing when I started noticing the response from people when I mentioned we have an all-black justice system, just very much in passing.

PETER MITTON: Ladawn Jones is the city solicitor or prosecutor. And the picture was her vision.

LADAWN: It creates an excitement that I thought we need a visual picture to go with and I love doing photo shoots and so we did it.

PETER MITTON: In the picture, Judge Tiffany sellers is at her court bench surrounded by seven other black women. They're looking poised and determined and fierce. They look nothing like what you might call the traditional face of law and order, especially here in the Deep South. So it's really no wonder that after it appeared in the local press, the photo went viral.

It's over the top. I've never seen so many--

PETER MITTON: This is the public defender Viveca Powell.

VIVECA POWELL: So we just left Red Lobster for a very late lunch and while I was there a woman that I've known over the years, I went over to say hey and first thing out of her mouth was I saw the picture. Everywhere I go people say I saw the picture. So it's just something about that picture that that does it for people you know.

PETER MITTON: Of course the pictures filled a lot of people with hope for what these women might accomplish. Judge Sellers has seen it in her own courtroom.

SELLERS: It's amazing to me they were viewed, that people want to bring their children to see us because I think each of us thinks we are just doing our jobs.

PETER MITTON: Yes. People have started bringing their kids to court. Sometimes even defendants.

SELLERS: I see the young girl sitting in court called the father's name. He actually loses his case. Afterwards he mentioned about his daughter, his daughter in the court. He wanted his daughter to see African-American women running the court system.

PETER MITTON: Part of the reason for the excitement here is because there's so much room for change in the status quo. According to the prison policy initiative think tank Georgia has the second highest rate of jail incarceration in the entire United States. And Georgia is number one in the country by far for the number of people in supervision, which includes parole, probation and jail. And in all those categories young black men are far and away the largest group.

JUSTIN PARKS: When I see the police I'm like let me go the other way.

PETER MITTON: Young men like Justin Parks.

JUSTIN PARKS: They shooting. A lot of people shooting. Cops shooting people. So I would say probably everybody worried about keeping their hands, keeping their hands in plain sight so they won't get shot in accident and [unintelligible].

PETER MITTON: 'Hands up. Don't shoot' has been the watchword and the gesture on streets across the U.S. since Michael Brown, an unarmed 18 year old African-American man, was shot dead by police in Ferguson Missouri, five years ago. And according to Justin, 'Hands up' is still a way of life here in encounters with police. When I met him at his mother's house one afternoon he lifted up his white muscle shirt to show off a skinny chest covered in gang tattoos.

JUSTIN PARKS: Bloody gang. Yes it was blood. It started off neighborhood, my neighborhood clique's and stuff, Southside family stuff like that. But then we get all sort of organized gangs. And that is what's going on here right now robbing, killing, mostly young dudes right here breaking the cars, stealing guns and stuff.

PETER MITTON: But at 28 Justin claims, very earnestly, that he's on a new path. He's got a steady job in a warehouse. Which is important because he and his girlfriend are expecting a baby in a few weeks. It's a boy. It will be his first child. So he says the street stuff is behind him.

JUSTIN PARKS: I was but I am not getting there no more. I realize there's no point inin messing with that stuff because it will get you jailed or killed. And all my friends is in jail or dead. So I realized it wasn't for me.

PETER MITTON: But Justin is back in trouble, it is for something that might not seem super serious but with his record he's looking at jail time, potentially a month or more. Which would mean he'd be behind bars for his son's birth. But while Justin may have been through the system before, this is his first encounter with the new City of South Fulton court.

COURT ROOM BALIFF: All rise. City of South Foulton's court is now in session. The honorable Tiffany Carter Seller is the judge presiding.

SELLERS: Thank you. Everyone, please be seated.

PETER MITTON: It's here. A bright airy courtroom inside a quiet municipal building that law and order South Fulton style is really on display.

SELLERS: Good evening everyone. This is our Wednesday nights here second chance nights. If you missed an earlier appearance, which would normally be grounds for a stiff fine or arrest warrant, you can always show up, even unannounced, on Wednesday night. No questions asked.

SELLERS: This is an opportunity for you to come in and rectify situation.

PETER MITTON: It's just one of the progressive ideas they knew they wanted in their new system.

LADAWN: The biggest benefit of being a new city is that you get to start from scratch. And so some of the things that we are doing different includes ensuring that everyone is represented at first appearance by a public defender. And that's not required by law. But it it's not a high hurdle and I'm glad that we've done it.

PETER MITTON: In other courts, the onus is on the defendant to prove they can't afford a private attorney. In the New South Fulton access to the public defender is automatic. There's also the diversion program to keep people from getting criminal records and fines they can't afford.

LADAWN: We've invested the very small municipal court budget into hiring someone who has our programs and probations manager that will oversee our diversion program which we hope to build out be one of the best and most ideal diversion programs this country has seen.

PETER MITTON: And then there's the general tone of the procedure. It's a courtroom but it's a cordial atmosphere. The court staff are patient understanding with people who are there for what's a potentially stressful ordeal.

[Indistinct chatter]

PETER MITTON: People end up smiling even laughing.

LADAWN: and then we also I think go above and be on to try to show respect. All of us recognize that African-Americans in particular, the way that many people in our community feel about justice and courts. Many people think it just simply cannot exist for them. And we want by the way that we treat them to know and feel and leave believing that they have in fact received justice. And they simply start by saying 'good morning Mr. or Mrs. whomever,' when they walk in the courtroom and making sure they understand they're going to get the same respect that we give each other.

PETER MITTON: Which brings us to Justin Park's day in court.

SELLERS: Mr. Parks, good morning.

PETER MITTON: Justin is dressed in shorts when he stands in front of Judge sellers to answer for his latest run in with the law. He's been picked up for riding an ATV on city streets, which is a surprisingly popular thing for young guys here. ATV riding recklessly through traffic sometimes right downtown are a common sight in Atlanta. He's facing a list of related charges for no insurance and no helmet. But the fact is since the new city incorporated last year ATV have been illegal on South Fulton streets. The charges are cut and dry and Justin told me later he was prepared to just plead guilty and hope for the best. But Judge Sellers suggests a pretrial trial talk first, with prosecutor La Dawn Jones.

SELLERS: Unless you want to talk to her and see if you can resolve this at this time.

LADAWN: This young man did not have a very nice criminal history. Right this was not his first rodeo.

JUSTIN PARKS: Juvenile, I did two years in juvenile. I did five years for aggravated assault, drug charges. I caught a dope charge. I just been in and out.

LADAWN: But nonetheless, because I know that the intent of the law is just to get people to get off the ATVs. They're not trying to ruin people's lives. I made the decision to put him in our diversion program.

PETER MITTON: That would be the second chance South Fulton diversion program, or in Justin's case a fourth or fifth chance maybe.

[Indistinct chatter]

PETER MITTON: Their pre-trial discussion had only taken over five minutes. Maybe less. But the outcome was potentially huge for Justin. Because it was his third offense for riding without a helmet, he was facing at least 30 days in jail.

JUSTIN PARKS: Right now I'm on bond for a case that is three years old. If they would have locked me up, it could be violating my bond and I wouldn't got out. Even after the 30 days I would have been locked up for violating.

PETER MITTON: Which means he would have been locked up when his son was born.

SELLERS: So I've discussed the case with Mr. Parks. Mr. Parks is going to go in our Second Chance South Fulton Diversion Program.

PETER MITTON: Justin will have to pay a fine of a few hundred dollars and do some community service work in local parks, but no license suspension and no new charges on his record.

LADAWN: I'm sure he must be there for the birth of his child. I'm certain he does not want to be in jail for riding an ATV. But more than anything despite his already having a record he does not want to have something fresh when he tries to go get his next job. He was working. That was the other important thing. There was a job that had accepted him. It would be disastrous for us to make him lose that because he has to spend time in jail and then make him go through the process where he tries to get hired upon being released somewhere else. But he has a brand new conviction on his record that would have closed the door on him completely.

PETER MITTON: It's not at all what Justin was expecting.

JUSTIN PARKS: Yes, cause if this has been the county over, Clayton County, I would've been in jail.

LADAWN: In another court someone may not have cared as much.

JUSTIN PARKS: These are women, black women. Usually you think 'all these women in here, it is going to be bad' you know, saying this is too many women. But it just seems like everybody is in there, even the Judge, she's trying to help you out, you know trying to work with you. I can't really say is like the solicitor. She's supposed to be the one who's trying, you know what I'm saying, to throw the book at you and at the same time, she is working with everyone, not just me. She is working with everybody.

PETER MITTON: It might still take a while for the kinder gentler Justice happening in inside the courtroom here to make itself felt on the streets of South Foulton, as Justin says, things are tense with the cops. But if the work these women are doing in the courts continues, there is a hope that that could change too. I asked the prosecutor LaDawn Jones what she thinks is really happening in that courtroom.

LADAWN: This shows that our country has made progress from just not too long ago when African-Americans were still slaves.

PETER MITTON: Judge Tiffany sellers.

SELLERS: You have to have judges, you have to have court administrators, you have to have prosecutors, you have to have public defenders that look like me. Because when we bring our own ideals and our own principles and our backgrounds into how we govern, into how we adjudicate cases, that's what makes the system work. So everybody looks one way, or is a white male, how can they appreciate or understand an African-American woman's perspective.

PETER MITTON: The crimes they deal with may be minor. This is a municipal court after all and serious offenses like assault and robberies are dealt with in Atlanta by the state. But it is the little misdemeanors that traffic tickets and unpaid fines that can add up and quickly leave a life off course. When I meet Justin at his mom's home the day after court he's been back on his ATV. He called it his bike.

[Sound: Engine starting]

JUSTIN PARKS: Right now, I just came from the barbershop. I. Hate to admit it but I had no vehicle here. So the barber shop across the street. I rode the bike to the street to the barbershop. In that little walk to the barbershop, if I were to walk I ain't no telling what I would have gotten into. I could've sold a bag of dope, rob or get robbed, anything could happen from here to the barbershop. So I was like, I got there. Got back, you know what I am saying.

PETER MITTON: As he sees it, to stay out of real trouble on the streets, fly past it all on your ATV. And what's more it takes his mind off the streets too. [To Justin] What do you like about riding? What goes through your mind when you ride the bike?

JUSTIN PARKS: Nothing. That is the whole point. I I'll be thinking about nothing but keeping the bike on. You are not worried about nothing. You're thinking about nothing when you are on it.

PETER MITTON: I visited South Fulton in July and two things have happened since. One, the interim police chief Sheila Rogers was replaced by a black man. That means South Fulton's run as the first ever U.S. justice system led entirely by black women has come to an end. The other thing that's happened is Justin's baby Josiah.

JUSTIN PARKS: He's doing good. He came two weeks early so he was a little small but he's getting bigger.

PETER MITTON: Does it feel different being a dad?

JUSTIN PARKS: Yes it is. It's kind of weird. Like I don't know how to explain it. It feel good. Somebody like this which you may say, you know, you created this, and it is somebody you can mold. Yes. So that's really what I'm looking forward to raising him in the right way, in a different way from what I was raised. So that's the best thing for me right now.

PETER MITTON: When LaDawn Jones put Justin into that diversion program, she also had a special stipulation for him. He had to attend a city of South Fulton council meeting to see how laws are made and hear how people in the community complain about things like ATVs on the streets.

JUSTIN PARKS: Yeas, I told my homeboy, he talking about it ain't going to do no good. I'm like, well I have no choice but to be there. And I might as well say something.

PETER MITTON: Justin's planning to bring up the topic of ATVs himself to talk about how they keep him and his friends out of trouble. Maybe the city could build a park, someplace where they could ride legally.

JUSTIN PARKS: It might help, it might figure out a way to where we don't get penalized. We can still ride but not be criminally penalized for riding. If I come with a good plan or proposal that they might go for it. I don't know.

PETER MITTON: Whether or not the park idea flies. Justin will be there, at a City Council meeting. One less young man in jail. And afterwards, home with his young son.

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LL: And that was Peter mittens documentary Georgia Grace. It was produced with the help of the currents. Joan Weber and Elizabeth Hoath. Well the CBC News is coming up next. Then, today is Audrey Parker's last day. The Halifax woman will receive a medically assisted death early this afternoon. She hopes her legacy will be so-called advanced directives, so others in your position can live a longer life. I'm Laura Lynch sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to the current.

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Halifax woman, who chose early medically assisted death, gets 'the last say' with her life

Guests: Michael Bach, Jocelyn Downie, Kenneth Rockwood

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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LL: Still to come. Some pictures are worth a thousand words and some will leave you speechless. That is the case for a series of photographs to come out of war torn Yemen. The images of children emaciated and withering away due to manmade famine wracking the country can't be unseen. In half an hour to a discussion about the power of such images on the public and on the photographers themselves. But first, a final wish.

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AUDREY PARKER: I just decided if I wait too long I could lose my self because of the brain cancer in my brain. And even though I've signed all those papers and have everything on track, if I'm not of sound mind they will not do it.

LL: That's Audrey Parker. Early this afternoon in Halifax she will die. Audrey Parker has stage four breast cancer that has metastasized and spread to her brain. She's one of thousands of Canadians choosing to die by a medically assisted death. And so today is the day for Audrey. But the thing is she would have liked to hold on a little longer. But she fears if she does she'll no longer be of sound mind and so won't be able to consent to her medically assisted death and that would make it illegal. Under current federal law, advance Directives plans for a medically assisted death at a future date aren't allowed.

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AUDREY PARKER: That's one thing I disagree with a little bit. I think once I've signed the papers and have agreed it should stand. But I still have to worry that if I lose my marbles they won't do it. And then I'm going to die poorly because my body will run out of steam, my heart will start to fail, my lungs will start to fail. All my organs will start to fail and then I'll be in a really bad shape. And for me. I've had a beautiful life. I'm about quality over quantity. I've gotten to live an extra almost three years after diagnosis and I've already had it, you know 16-17 years in my body. It's time for me to go and I want to go peacefully and beautifully. I want my mother to be holding my hand. I want my family and my friends to be with me. So I like the way I've chosen to go. I think it's better for me.

LL: That was Audrey Parker speaking with CBC Halifax's information morning in September. And has her life comes to an end today, Audrey Parker is hoping that her words live on. She wants the Federal Government to change the law to allow advance directives for medically assisted death.

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AUDREY PARKER: We have to ensure that people who decide to use medical assistance in dying are the ones that are having the last say with their life. But if I've signed the papers I've had doctors corroborate my want of medical assistance in dying. I think it should stand. So I'm probably going to leave two or three weeks earlier than I might have. I just can't take the risk that I'll lose my marbles and not be able to have the the made. It's easy for people who aren't suffering to judge what I'm saying but unless you've walked in my shoes and those who have dealt with severe pain it makes me want to kill yourself. It's so bad. When you have that incredible pain, you think about your body, my brain tells me cut off your legs when they're hurting because they hurt so badly. So I'm trying to- I've already paid my dues pain wise. I've spent two years trying to get on top of my pain. Now it's taken care of beautifully now. So I'm very much at peace with it.

LL: Regulating these advance directives such as the one Audrey Parker wanted has already been recommended by a provincial territorial Expert Advisory Group and a joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons. And in early December parliament will be hearing more on this from experts. Today we're asking how to balance the needs of people like Audrey Parker, while ensuring people are making sound decisions around death and dying. Jocelyn Downie is a professor of law and health care ethics at the Schulich School of Law at Dalhousie University. She was also a member of that provincial territorial Expert Advisory Group on physician assisted dying. And she testified before the special joint committee of the House and the Senate on this. She's in our Halifax studio. Michael Bach is the managing director of the Institute for Research and Development on inclusion and society. We've reached him in Essex, England and Dr. Kenneth Rockwood is a geriatrician and professor of geriatric medicine at Dalhousie University. He is in Windsor, England today. Hello to all of you.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Morning.

MICHAEL BACH: Good morning Laura.

KENNETH ROCKWOOD: Hello.

LL: Jocelyn Downie we'll start with you. We just heard from Audrey Parker she is dying today but she says she would have wanted to stay a little longer. Do you think she should be allowed to?

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Absolutely. I think she meets the criteria for MAID and she is in the circumstance that is the easiest to justify for allowing advance requests.

LL: Okay. Let's talk about a little bit more. It's earlier than she'd like to have this death. Why did she have to do this? Explain that for us.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: So she to make a request for MAID. She has to be determined to be eligible. So she has to have a grievous and irremediable medical condition and then that spelled out in the legislation, just to wait 10 days which is obviously not a feature in her case. But the key piece that poses the barrier for her is that immediately prior to the provision of MAID she has to be capable and she has to be asking consent again to being given MAID. And so if she loses capacity she cannot have made. So what she wants to do is say 'look I've met all the criteria, I'm capable. I'm telling you, while capable, that if I lose capacity I still want MAID'. You can't have that now.

LL: And just for our listeners let's make sure we understand the acronym MAID is medically assisted death.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Yes.

LL: All right. Jocelyn Downie again can you explain what she wants, which is something called an advance directive.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Sure I would. I would just quickly say I think we should use the language of advance request. And that will enable us to distinguish between advanced directives which are which operate at a provincial level where people are able to say it's long established you know: when I lose capacity, for instance I don't want pneumonia, if I'm in a persistent vegetative state. So I can make statements about treatment I want or don't want or who I want to make decisions for me.

LL: And those exist now.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Those Are with us now and those are regulated at a provincial level. And I think we should talk about events requests when we're talking about MAID, just so people are really aware that this is happening at a federal level. It should be regulated at a federal level and it applies only to assisted dying. So we would have a separate regime for that. So that's what she wants she wants to be able to say in advance that when certain circumstances are met she would like to have MAID. So she could continue living because she's at risk of losing capacity. She could say 'I want to stretch this out. I do want to live for some more. But I'm afraid I'm going to lose my capacity and if I do I lose the ability to have MAID. So what I want to do is to be able to tell my health care provider please if I lose capacity I still want MAID and to get it'.

LL: And one more thing to clarify here, when you say the consent has to be given immediately before, what are we talking about? Seconds before? Hours before?

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Right. Literally a day before. The IV would be in her arm and the doctor would be going to provide MAID and would be saying 'okay, now are you sure is this what you want? You know that you can change your mind?' It's very important for people to understand that that's a part of the process is that the person is told and knows that they can change their mind right up to the end. But at the very last moment she has to say 'yes. This is what I want'.

LL: Michael Bach, what do you think of Audrey Parker's wish to have to be able to go through her medically assisted death at a later date?

MICHAEL BACH: Well I think you know all Canadians who are hearing this story today will be feeling compassion for this situation that she's in. So there's no question about that. I think our challenge as it is in any complex area of law and human rights is to figure out how to balance what can feel like competing values and rights. And so we have to think about how do we balance the values of compassion for people in these situations with the need to protect the foundations of dignity and equal respect for all persons in Canadian society and I think that the challenge here is that you know we need to understand I think that these decisions these choices by by individuals who are eligible for MAID, clearly Audrey Parker is, also a public consequences. And so I think it's important to step - while having compassion for this particular instance and situation - is to step back to look at the implications for the legal regime in Canada, and a society in which a growing proportion of us are becoming disabled, aging, with dementia. And the prospects of introducing advance directives, or advanced requests just as Justin Downie has said, that would compel the state to intervene to terminate the lives of people who cannot consent to the termination of their life, I think it raises very serious questions.

LL: Okay tell me what questions it raises for you.

MICHAEL BACH: So right now there's about 500,000 Canadians with dementia. By the 2030s will have over a million and it's estimated that 250,000 new cases of dementia every year. The prospects of people with early stages of dementia, or prior to dementia are writing in advance requests that at a certain stage when I'm no longer able to consent: 'I want to provide authority to have my life terminated'. The idea that we're going to have a publicly funded state regulated healthcare system intervene with the intention to terminate the lives of a growing group of people who make these requests, who cannot consent at the time of their deaths to that termination. And we know from the research on dementia that while in early stages or prior people have a certain perception of what their life's going to look like, we also know that when people are in those later stages they may have a very different experience of self and we open up the problems here; the dilemma of turning it over to others whether family members or physicians to interpret and to decide if someone--.

LL: tel me how that's different though from people making future decisions about what should happen to them if they pull into a coma or lose their brain capacities, things like do not resuscitate orders. How is that different?

MICHAEL BACH: I think it's a really important difference. We certainly have a right to have treatment withdrawal, no extraordinary measures but the principle there is you know, what's known in ethics as a principle of negative liberty, like if I don't want someone touching my body or putting an I.V. in my body I can I can refuse that. And I should be able to refuse that in advance. But to compel the state to be able - and the healthcare system - to form an intention to terminate my life at a point when I can't consent. It's an active positive intervention from the healthcare system with the intention to terminate a life that creates the problem. So I think these are really distinct. We have a right not to have a physician touch us or do an intervention with us and to make sure that doesn't happen. Can we really compel the state, the healthcare system, to intervene to terminate our life when we can't consent? That's the difference.

LL: I want to turn now to Dr. Kenneth Rockwood. You had a change of heart on some of these issues sometimes your patients ask you to refer them for a medically assisted death.

KENNETH ROCKWOOD: What are you weighing when that happens. I did with a couple of patient populations. And I see the merits of both arguments in fact. Some of the patients that I deal with have progressive neurological disorders which result in severe intractable suffering. And commonly because we follow them you know I've known them when they're well when they're able to give consent, when they're able to articulate the circumstances they aim to avoid. And then I see them when they've arrived at that circumstance. And sometimes the determination of confidence with them can be formerly tricky, in as much as the same problem with the part of the brain that is making them not able to speak even though their language might be intact. There is also giving him problems with swallowing. And so they have this situation in which they're choking a lot. And so that's clearly an intolerable state for them. And so we work through with them to try and sort out whether they would actually meet the criteria for competence. And that takes time and it becomes an obstacle to overcome for the person trying to carry out MAID. So there are pragmatic considerations there about when it can be timed. Not as much in respect to the suffering they've got but you know how problematic you might be to be sure they have consent.

LL: So then in that case what do you think about this idea of advance directives or requests?

KENNETH ROCKWOOD: So I can see that making sense as a remedy when we have an indication from the individual that now is the time they're done with this, the suffering that they've described as the sort of thing that they had feared. And in contrast to some people with dementia who do in fact find that the circumstances that they had imagined as being intolerable are not ones that, when they are there, make them unhappy. So I think that's where distinction needs to lie. The problem of course from a public policy standpoint is that now you have to introduce the idea of judgment. And that makes it tricky to be able to adequately specify exactly how this will play out. But I don't see any way around it that we are going to have to work out procedures that allow people not to be in the position. We're well ahead of time and at a point in which the current legislation might be disputed, in their case, by them saying they're not close enough to death for this to obtain. We're really going to have to have some way that people are able to have what they had specified actually be an act if it doesn't look as though they're objecting to it. I mean we have to be alert to make sure that we're not doing the thing where the state is being compelled to kill people.

LL: These are such tricky questions. Jocelyn Downie you have been looking at this. Is there a way to craft a solution that would address Michael Bach's concerns and the struggle that Dr. Rockwood has.

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Yes I think so. I think that what actually the provincial territorial group and the special joint committee landed on gives us a bright line that allows us to avoid these concerns. So what I mean by that is that we should say that a person can make a request, an advance request, after they have received the diagnosis of the grievous and irremedial medical condition so that it avoids the problems, some of the problems that Michael pointed out and if you think about Audry you can see how it avoids them. She fully understands the trajectory that she's on. She knows what it's going to be. Her path is clear, she would not change her mind. And so we're able to say look if you allow it at the point at which you understand the path you're on and it's able to be explained to you then we allow you to have an advance request. So that we're not leaving people with the choice of either ending their lives earlier than they otherwise would which is what we're seeing with Audrey or stopping eating and drinking through an advance request. That's a piece that hasn't been a part of the conversation yet. But that's the other option because of course you are allowed to refuse oral hydration and nutrition through an advance directive. So it's a terrible choice. It's a choice that we can avoid by having the bright line of you can do an events request once you have the diagnosis.

LL: about this question of people who have dementia, or Alzheimer's disease, who may want to agree earlier but then once they get down that road they're not in a position to really issue their own - they may not have a better sense of where they're at or they may want to live longer. How do you deal with that?

JOCELYN DOWNIE: Well I think that they will have a sense of the trajectory and they will also be the one to bear the risk of being wrong, because that's the choice we've made with respect to choosing to allow advance directives, so that I'm in the exact same state when I have the diagnosis of dementia and I'm looking at my choices. The same issues with respect to personal identity and how much do I understand what it's going to be like, how will I experience it at the time, those all play in the in the decision of whether I put in my advanced directive that I don't want any antibiotics if I get pneumonia, or I don't want to be fed. I don't want nutrition and hydration. So I think as a society we've already made that public policy decision. And so it's in the implementation that we have to be as careful as we can to ensure that people are informed, they understand what the trajectory can look like and that we require that people put very very clear descriptions of the conditions that they consider to be intolerable into those requests.

LL: Is that you Michael Bach trying to speak up there?

MICHAEL BACH: I was just going to say I don't think we can collapse the distinction between withdrawal of treatment and an advance directive to terminate a life on a set of conditions that we can't fully anticipate in the future. But I wonder if we narrow into this place that I think that we've all been talking about. You know the legislation requires that a person be at the end of their life, that if a person is in a situation of intolerable, in a situation grievous and irremedial medical condition and intolerable suffering and the couple of examples that Kevin has laid out - You know I wonder if we also need to challenge our conceptions of consent so that we acknowledge that in these very narrow set of situations - when people have met those criteria, they are dying. It's clear that their suffering - is that we we provide and recognize some alternative ways that people are communicating, are signaling their their wishes. And I wonder if in the clip you played at the beginning when Ms. Parker talked about worries about losing her marbles, that also, I understand why she would use it and maybe the legislation requires people to use those kinds of stereotypes. But I wonder if we can also have a deeper understanding of what it means to consent in these situations, so that we provide more accommodation, reasonable accommodation to people with significant challenges in this place without crossing what I think is a really problematic line which is to say we'll terminate the lives of people who can't consent. Maybe we need to rethink and provide more care and some time in understanding the variety of ways in which people can consent in this very very particular group of people.

LL: This there is so much to talk about and always so little time. Jocelyn Downie, I just wonder if you could tell us briefly in the recommendations you made, are there circumstances where these advance requests should not be permitted?

JOCELYN DOWNIE: So prior to the receipt of diagnosis, so I'm sitting here in studio right now. I have no diagnosis of dementia. I have no diagnosis of anything that's going to tell me what trajectory I'm on to death. I should not be able to say that I want MAID assisted dying under XYZ circumstance. So it's only once I have been told look you have, ALS - the condition that Gloria Taylor had. And in the case that actually brought us assisted dying in Canada - or you have dementia, or I have Audrey Parker situation at that point you would be able to. But before you know what you have, before you can anticipate the trajectory, you don't. You can't do in advance. And that's the bright line

LL: Is there a time limit on how far in advance someone can make a request?

JOCELYN DOWNIE: I don't think it would be the time limit of how far in advance. I think what you would build in is a constant revisiting. She's needs to check in and say is this still what you want. I think Audrey has suggested a 12 month limit. Other places have different limits have been proposed to them. So it's not that it's okay. It can only be within a certain number of years that you write it, but rather that say you're five years out that you would check on a regular interval to make sure that that's still what the person wants.

LL: Hey Dr. Kenneth Rockwell does any of this help you in wrestling with these decisions in your practice?

KENNETH ROCKWOOD: Well are anticipating that things will change. So I think that would be useful. I think that the problem of what we do till get those new procedures worked out is still going to be an important one. The other group that we haven't spoken much about are the people who are competent but frail, who have things wrong with them, whose quality of life may not be what they would have anticipated as desirable but still find it worthwhile to live and but who may competently choose MAID with considerations in mind that extend to what they want for their family or will they spend through the entire amount of money that would go to their kids otherwise. That's a non-trivial group and a group that we need to have careful discussion about.

LL: We have less than a minute left. Michael Bach I just want to ask you what do you think needs to happen to get this right?

MICHAEL BACH: I think we need to hold the lines that we have in the law in terms of an end of life condition and one needs to be to be able to consent at the time of death and maybe rethink around consent was how to how to manage that I would be very concerned about opening this up to people who are frail and concerned about the cost to their families and society of their form of life that sends a message to people living with really significant vulnerabilities and disabilities that's their condition. We are now a justifiable reason to terminate a life. So I think we don't want to go that far.

LL: I'm sorry we're going to have to leave it there. Obviously I think we'll be talking about this more in the future. My thanks to all of you.

GUESTS: Thank you. Thank you.

LL: Jocelyn Downie is a professor of law and health care ethics at the Schulich that School of Law Dalhousie University. She was in Halifax. Michael Bach is the managing director of the Institute for Research and Development on inclusion and society. He was in Essex, England and Dr. Kenneth Rockwood is a geriatrician and professor of geriatric medicine at Dalhousie University. We reached him in Windsor, England. We did request comment from Canada's Minister of Health Ginette Petitpas Taylor but we did not hear back. Coming up in our next half hour: capturing the human cost of war. A panel of award winning photojournalists. I'm Laura Lynch sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti. You're listening to The Current.

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These award-winning photojournalists share the emotional cost of covering war

Guest: Lynsey Addario, Tyler Hicks, Finbarr O’Reilly

LL: I'm Laura Lynch sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. The picture is difficult to look at. Seven year old Amal Hussain's head is turned to the side looking away from the camera and ageless resignation clear on her face. Her ribs jut out under emaciated arms. Four flies linger around her fingernails. Amal Hussain is starving to death, one of thousands of victims dying of malnutrition during the war in Yemen between Houthi rebels and a Saudi led coalition. Describing it is one thing but you really have to see the haunting photograph to appreciate its power. Cash-strapped aid agencies hope the photos of Amal, and other victims in Yemen, may galvanize humanitarian support to help ease the suffering of its people. We have brought together three conflict photojournalists today to discuss the power of the picture in changing public sentiment and its costs on both the subjects and the photographer. Tyler Hicks took the picture of Amal and others in a story about the war in Yemen that was published in The New York Times last weekend. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning photo journalist with The New York Times who has worked in most of the world's conflict zones over the past two decades. We've reached him in Limuru Kenya. Lynsey Addario is another Pulitzer Prize winning photo journalist who was also in Yemen last month working on a photo assignment for The New York Times magazine. Her photos went online yesterday and will be published in the magazine this weekend. She is in Los Angeles. And Finbarr O'Reilly is an award winning Canadian photojournalist who has covered conflicts and wars in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, Libya and Gaza among others. Finbarr O'Reilly is joining us from London England. Hello to all of you.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Hi.

TYLER HICKS: Hello.

LL: Tyler Hicks let me start with you. Tell me who Amal Hussain is.

TYLER HICKS: She's a 7 year old girl who I photographed in a place called Aslam at a very small clinic in northern Yemen. And I was photographing people who are in various states of malnutrition, both children and their parents, notably mothers in different parts of northern Yemen. And when I came across this girl she really struck me as a severe case her. Her ribs virtually just showing through very very thin layer of skin, her arms and legs like toothpicks. And to me this young girl really represented a huge part of the crisis of hunger and malnutrition that's happening in Yemen now.

LL: How did she end up being so malnourished?

TYLER HICKS: The problem is that as we I spent a month working both in southern and northern Yemen on this trip, the problem is that there's no money. It's not a shortage of food, the inability of people to get food. There are no jobs. This is all a result of a war that's been going on for years in Yemen and that's really caught up to them in a way that you know people can't get to doctors. They can't afford fuel .they can't afford medicine and most importantly they can't afford food. So especially in rural areas in the parts of Yemen where people just wither away by the time they do reach a clinic, if they knew, they're just an incredibly bad shape.

LL: Tyler The New York Times felt the need to publish an article explaining its rationale for publishing the photographs of Amal and the other Yemenis and the rationale is that readers need to see these images to fully appreciate the suffering. I know you agree with that. Why do you think these photos are so important?

TYLER HICKS: You know I think that there are times when these kind of photographs are important to see. I think I can speak for myself, and also Lynsey and Finbarr who are also on this panel, in that we have to take pictures of a very difficult to look at, situations, people. You know when you insert yourself into a warzone the side effects are very far reaching. And this is the reality of war. And people need to be reminded and shown. These photographs are getting a lot of attention. And as photojournalists our entire purpose is to get people to pay attention to these crisises that are happening around the world.

LL: And Lynsey you're also just back from Yemen and I saw your pictures last night. Can you tell me about the project you were working on there?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: So I was there with Bobby Wirth's for The New York Times magazine in September and we were traveling all over northern Yemen. We didn't really work in southern Yemen but we wanted to show, sort of answer the question are of who are the Houthis and what's happening with this war in Yemen. And a lot, for me, visually is of course the humanitarian toll. So it's the civilians who pay the price. You know people who have been injured in airstrikes, the malnutrition, IDPs - people who are internally displaced and living in these sort of makeshift camps or in front of schools. You know it's devastating because there aren't- the aid agencies there and if they are there they're not getting the funding that they're getting for other wars because there's just no publicity. I mean most journalists haven't been able to get into Yemen and so the world doesn't really know what's going on there, and doesn't appreciate the need for the people in Yemen.

LL: But what images stand out for you from that trip?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: You know really it's similar to Tyler. I mean you have these children who are emaciated and their mothers are just you know completely helpless. I met mothers who have already lost two children. You know they're in the hospital with a severely malnourished third child. And essentially just waiting for them to die and hoping that there's some intervention can happen. And I think it's heartbreaking because we are very used to being able to have a sick child and take them to the doctor. I mean that's just not a luxury for most of the parents in Yemen.

LL: You weren't on the frontline when you went in, and Tyler was. Was that a conscious decision?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yes. That was not our story at all. We were not interested in covering the fighting. I mean we were interested of course but our main story was more covering the humanitarian toll and working in the north. We were both working for The New York Times. So we were very conscious of the fact that Tyler and Declan were going to Hudaida and we weren't.

LL: Tyler, I'm wondering if you can tell me what a picture can do that words can't.

TYLER HICKS: That is something that- When I became a journalist, that is exactly the type of emotion that I remember as a child, looking through books put out by Life magazine and looking to National Geographic and the famous photographs that you see, especially when you haven't seen those types of images before. And they really become [unintelligible] in your mind. And I still see those photographs today and I can remember the first time I saw them. And that's something that doesn't translate, at least to me, the other way, not with video, not with any other medium. And that's what really kind of got me thinking about the magic of photography and how incredibly important and powerful a tool it is. Just the old fashioned still photograph. It has a way of abetting your mind in a way that nothing else can. And that's why these photos they're still- you can look at them. You can [unintelligible] them, actually slow down a little bit and really draw your own conclusions from that image.

LL: Finbarr O'Reilly I want to bring you into this. You started your foreign work as a print journalist and you then made the switch to photojournalism. Was it the power of the image that made you decide to change.

FINBARR O'REILLY: Yes absolutely. And for many of the reasons that Tyler has just mentioned as well I was working immediately in the aftermath of 9/11 when much of the media focus was in the Middle East, so Israel, Palestine, Iraq then later Afghanistan. And I was working from Central Africa. I was based in Congo and covering conflicts in Darfur and I was writing my stories and they were being seen by media and occasionally they get into print but often quite condensed versions. And what I discovered bit by bit is whenever I - I didn't have a photographer with me - but whenever I took fairly basic pictures to illustrate those stories they had a better chance of being published in some of the media that subscribes to the Reuters news service that I was working for at the time. And the turning point really for me was in Darfur in 2004. I went there as a writer reporting for both Reuters and The Economist. But I was given a digital camera and told look we don't get any pictures from here at this point, so can you produce whatever you come up with and my stories were fine. But they were again condensed to a couple of hundred words each time, but the images that I took there ended up on the front page of International Herald Tribune, now the New York Times and double page spreads in magazines in Europe and elsewhere. And what I realized really was the power of the still image to have this immediate emotional impact that even deep long reported stories may not have. They just resonate quickly and they do allow us really to to stop time and give people a moment to reflect on what they're looking at. And with my print background, I always hope that an image will provoke people to try and find out that little bit more about what the situation is that they're seeing.

LL: So this is a question for anyone of you: when you're taking photographs of people who are living through conflict and war, how do you manage your relationship with them when they are so vulnerable? Any one of you.

TYLER HICKS: I'll jump in on that one. I mean it's very different from country to country. And it always takes me at least a few days, if not longer, to get a sense of the feeling in general of the people, the mood that I'm photographing. In this case, certainly in the case of the malnourished children, there is amazing understanding among the families that there is ultimately a very positive and good thing that could come from these photographs. And certainly being a male photographer in a culture where photographing women is a big step. It's a conservative society. And I can't think of a single time when any of these women objected to having their photographs made, because there is an exception that kind of gets baked into that whole situation. I mean understanding even in that very far distant part of the world where people don't get a lot of access to the international press. But but it's that understanding that really is amazing.

LL: Lynsey I'm wondering what it's like for you, and because you're a woman in these situations, and also whether it ever feels exploitative or you worry about that.

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yes I mean I think we all worry about that. I think we're all pretty sensitive people. And we you know it's not like we walk into these situations with our cameras sort of blazing and just go around taking people's pictures without asking. I mean for me personally I'll go in I'll introduce myself either to a room full of people, explain I'm there for the New York Times. We're trying to tell the story. And more often than not the response is 'thank you'. Thank you for risking your life. Thank you for being here. And so I think, as Tyler said, even in the most remote areas people understand and appreciate the role of a journalist. And they understand that the world needs to see what's happening. So that's really important is to get their permission. And then of course you know in a situation like this people are so vulnerable. And it's really hard I think for me personally. You know it's not obviously about sensationalizing it. People say well these images are- you're sensationalizing the situation. No. This is the reality. We are not sensationalizing anything, we are just documenting the condition of these women and children.

LL: The work that you're doing, the people who are agreeing to have their photographs taken there, they are hoping that it will have enough of an impact, that something might change. And in them in that context, I just wanted to bring up the photograph of Alan Kurdi whose body was found washed up on a beach in Turkey in 2015. It had a profound impact on how the refugee crisis was perceived, especially here in Canada. Finbarr I'm wondering how difficult it is to find photos like that which really breakthrough, which really make a difference.

FINBARR O'REILLY: Well, I suppose there are a couple of parts to that question. I mean certainly that image had a huge impact and it was an emotional picture. It was a very powerful image and it did create a strong reaction, a strong emotional reaction among many people around the world. How much it actually shifted anything on the thinking around the migrant crisis? I don't actually what practical changes or political changes could we tangibly point to that were the result of that viral image. And so for me certainly I agree with everything that Tyler and Lynsey have said on this. For me though, I covered a lot of these conflicts for 15 years; Congo, Sudan, Chad, Afghanistan, Libya and all these other places. But I did start to grow increasingly uncomfortable with photographing people at their most vulnerable while actually being able to do little to help. And I kind of lost my drive to capture some of these events and became the sort of moral quandary about this sort of evoking this pretense of serving a cause larger than our own and intruding on the lives of others. But I do think that in situation certainly like the one in Yemen right now, that the entire had such a good job of documenting, it's humanitarian disaster that's unfolding. And yes we may be foreign photographers coming in to a foreign culture and taking images, but in my experiences the images are the by-product of what can often be quite an intimate interaction with people, a personal interaction, the conversations you have, your presence in these kinds of places that you've have come that far. Lynsey you mentioned people welcoming you because you've taken the risks to be there. And I've encountered that same sentiment where people are genuinely willing to open up because somebody has shown an interest in hearing their story. Now they probably know and we probably know that the images that we produce aren't going to have an immediate impact for the individual specifically that we photograph, sometimes it will but that tends to be fairly rare. So I suppose what we what we ultimately hope and with a platform like the New York Times - which is one of the few outlets that that is devoting the kinds of resources that allow this kind of really powerful photography to be done - that is a platform where political agendas can be shifted and then impact genuinely can be had. So I think that's kind of where it would take that question.

LL: Tyler Lynsey do you want to jump in on that?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: I'd like to add something. I think when we look at the picture of Alan Kurdi that picture is coming on the tail end of years of collective work of journalists like all of us who are documenting the war in Syria, the refugee crisis, images that people begin to become inured to. And so when we see an image like that, that is true that the image, that then takes the place in and really provokes people to say 'Okay. Enough. Now here's the child. This is who can be any one of our children who looks like he's sleeping but he's dead.' And so I think we can't forget the fact that we all contribute to a collective consciousness of what's happening around the world. This work is not about us. It's about documenting what's happening around the world.

LL: And I know you're saying it's not about you and what you're trying to achieve with it, but it still can't help but have an impact on you. Tyler you photographed an 11 month old in Yemen named Wadah who died just eight hours later. And I'm wondering how you deal with that, especially with children who are suffering.

TYLER HICKS: When something like that happens it's really heartbreaking. And this is a child that was brought in while I was at a clinic. I was photographing people who had already been admitted. And when a family came rushing in with this very very small incredibly malnourished boy, and they went through the motions, what they do with the resources they have which is basically just to lay the child, measure the child, check the vitals and try to get food into him. And he actually was drinking milk out of the spoon and seemed to be responding. And this is one of the things we experience on a fast moving story. You know you're traveling; you're in and out of places usually never find out what happens to people that you photograph. It's very difficult to track things especially when you don't have a common language. These people don't have a phone. There's no way to do that. And I happened go back to that clinic the next day. And almost nonchalantly they said, you know that young boy that you were photographing, at 8:00p.m. he passed away. It was just heartbreaking. And I just had my first child a year ago and with another on the way. And it really does give me a different perspective about how these families must be feeling. Not only the suffering that the children are going through, but also the incredible amount of stress and worry and sadness that the families are going through on top of everything else, all the other challenges in their lives.

LL: Lynsey you have a child as well. Does that play into how you deal with these things>

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Yes I mean I'm a pretty emotional passionate person. And when I get into the situations I often find myself crying while I'm shooting. I'm not the kind of person who can be stoic. I feel an incredible empathy and a real sense that it's just not fair that there are people who are born into these situations. And so I often find myself very emotional and I try of course to compose myself and to not not you know make the subject feel bad. But certainly there are some moments that are just so devastating because we then insert ourselves, or at least I do. And I say what if that were my son. What if that were my sister who just died in childbirth, because I do many stories on women as well and so of course that it's very difficult.

LL: And Finbarr that doesn't play into your reasons from stepping away from this kind of work?

FINBARR O'REILLY: Yes yes I think some of it doesn't mean the emotional distress faced by journalists clearly is nothing compared to what our subjects endure. And also we're not victims. We've chosen this line of work for whatever reason whether it's you know an adventurous lifestyle, the prestige, the ego or idealism, or the conviction that recording history so holds some kind of intrinsic value. But often that relentless flow of violence where those individual cases that we witness and the suffering that we see, it does take a toll emotionally. Each person deals with it however they can. I certainly decided at a certain point a couple of years ago where I felt like I'd had enough of exposing myself to certain kinds of stories - not that these stories weren't still worth covering. They very much are. But I felt like I wanted to move in a slightly different direction. I stepped back and I decided to write a book with one of the subjects of my photographs; A U.S. Marine who I met in Afghanistan and I felt like my my relationship with him over several years - after photographing him being ambushed and injured in a Taliban firefight in Afghanistan - was kind of really a way for me to connect with one of my subjects, one of my sources if you will for a story, in a way that I felt a lot of times I was unable to do in what Tyler just described as these situations where you're in and out of a place without being able to to ever know what happens to people after the fact.

LL: As always I'm so frustrated that we're already getting close to the end of this but I can't help but mention that it's also dangerous work. Tyler and Lynsey you were both captured in Libya in 2011 for six days. And Chris Hondros and Tim Hetherington are two other photojournalists were killed in Libya in a mortar attack. Tyler do you ever think of pulling back from frontline work?

TYLER HICKS: I do. But it's also something that really becomes hard at least for me. Part of the way I work. It's my passion to put myself in these types of places because that's where you really get to the raw truth, the closer to the truth you get. I think as long as I am doing this work I will continued to [unintelligible].

FINBARR O'REILLY: And I can testify to Tyler doing that. It is so clear from his images but we were together in Gaza in 2014. And he was consistently pushing a little further than a lot of us were comfortable going. And his photographs show the results of that.

LL: Sorry Lynsey we just got about 20 seconds left and I want to give you the last word. Why do you keep doing it?

LYNSEY ADDARIO: Look I think it's important. And I also think you asked about us and I think it's important for us to know when to pull back as well to take some time out. That's fundamental to a career, a long career in doing its work.

LL: I thank all three of you for your work. I thank all three of you for coming to talk to me about it today.

GUESTS: Thank you.

Tyler Hicks is a Pulitzer Prize winning photo journalist with The New York Times. Lynsey Addario is also a Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist. Her book Of Love and War was published this month. And Finbarr O'Reilly is an award winning Canadian photo journalist and author of Shooting Ghosts: A U.S. Marine, a Combat Photographer and their Journey back from War. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q, though. Today soprano Renee Fleming is on the show. Remember, you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. Now finally we heard from Audrey Parker earlier in today's show. This afternoon she will be taking her last breaths. A friend who was with her last night told us this morning that Audrey Parker said 'I am at peace with my death', and she has arranged for her medically to death to be a special moment. For one there's going to be live music. Canadian folk singer Laura Smith will be there to sing. So let's end today with a song from Laura Smith's 2013 album: Everything is moving. The song is Safe Home Sweet Light. I'm Laura Lynch in for Ana Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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[Song: Safe Home Sweet Light]

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