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The Current Transcript for October 11, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Was a big shock for us really. The last two or three days happen. I don't know what they want from us. Those people, why they are hating us? Why?

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: She's a dentist from Sudan who arrived in Canada seeking refugee status. And for now she stays with her husband and baby in a hotel in north Toronto, along with hundreds of others of claimants. Their very presence has triggered outrage, a magnet for those questioning the Federal Government's refugee policies or refugee housing, even others who wander the halls to ridicule and catch it all on smartphone. And while everyone talks about those refugee claimants, our Julie Chrysler went to talk to them. She joins me in a moment. Also today, yum.

SOUNDCLIP

We farm insects. So here we have a honey mustard roasted crickets. This is a plain roasted meal worm and this is a plain roasted cricket.

AMT: Bug cuisine is still a novelty but as climate change affects our food supply those crickets may become more of a cash crop. In fact food experts say the grand challenge of the next century will be working around the threat climate change poses to our food systems. Already CO2 levels are affecting nutrients and some foods. In half an hour, we look at the problem. We'll look at what's already under way to fight it and how our diet may have to change. And:

SOUNDCLIP

At the end of the day she was a mother, a daughter and she was a human being. She had human rights like everybody else. She deserves to have justice.

AMT: Cindy Gladue was never the one on trial. But as the Supreme Court hears the case today of the man acquitted in her death and then on appeal and ordered to undergo a retrial, Cindy Glod used treatment in life, in death, and even in court after her death and what it says about our justice system is the real issue for many interveners heading to the Supreme Court today. We're on that issue in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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'It was like a nightmare': Police investigate fire started at Toronto hotel housing refugees

Guest: Julie Chrysler, Geoff Turner

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Street noise]

AMT: The sounds of the 401 Highway in Toronto and along that highway there are a series of modest business hotels. You know them, the kind of chain hotels that are the same all over North America; basic, reliable. Lately one has become a target and a symbol. A Radisson hotel, north of downtown Toronto, is currently serving as a temporary shelter to more than 550 refugee claimants. That has prompted criticism from some refugee advocates who want to see a more coordinated response. It's prompted criticism as well from the Ontario government which wants the Federal Government to tighten up its borders and give the city more support. And our producer Julie Chrysler found out in some cases the response has crossed from criticism to outward hostility and people staying at the hotel are feeling targeted. Julie is with me now. Hi Julie.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: So you went out to this hotel to get a better picture of life there. Why is it getting so much attention?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well you know as you know Toronto, like many other Canadian cities, it's been dealing with an influx of refugee claimants. There were several hundred that were being housed at college and university dorms over the summer. But of course the students are back now. The hotels are a short term solution but the housing market in Toronto is tight and expensive. And so people are having trouble finding anything more permanent and because there are so many refugee claimants staying at this particular hotel, it's drawn attention from people who are angry about Canada's approached Immigration. And that anger seems to have built up over the last couple of weeks with some negative press and inflammatory online videos. But what I didn't know until I got there was that there was also an incident of violence.

AMT: What happened?

Well Anna Maria, it turns out something really scary happened at the hotel on Tuesday night of last week October 2nd.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIO CALLAUGH: If you want to see the next floor just to get a sense of the.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Yes, that will be great.

JULIE CHRYSLER: So that's Mario Calla showing me around. He is the executive director of Costi which is an agency that provides settlement services for newcomers. And he took me to a particular spot on the third floor.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIO CALLAUGH: So we're looking here at a patch of burnt carpet where the gasoline tank - this would be one of those you know red gasoline containers that people usually use for extra gasoline for their cars. And so it was sitting here on fire. The individual had put a rag in the nozzle of that tank. So we're talking a serious attempt at burning this place down. We were very very lucky because a maintenance person happened to be at the end of this floor. So when the fire started - and let's remember - it's a can of gasoline. This could have exploded and created you know horrific horrific fire. And so the smoke detector went off and the maintenance person came running to see what was happening, saw this fire. So it was here and what he did was - that's the exit door there - so he kicked it. What is it about 20-25 feet to the exit door? As you can see each time it dropped it burnt the carpet and then kicked it out, very smart thing, kicked it out into the stairwell where it's all concrete and steel stairs. So that he then had enough time to put it out. So you can see that the burn marks there on the wall they've since repainted the floor. So it was very very - we're just lucky - a tragedy. You know we could be talking today about a horrible tragedy but you know it was averted by the quick actions of that individual. I just hope that the police are able to catch the individual who caused this.

AMT: And you could still see the burn marks.

JULIE CHRYSLER: So you sure could. You can see a photo on the website. I was at the Hotel just two days after the fire and there were still like this chemical smell in the air too. I am not sure whether it was gasoline or the chemicals in the burnt carpet or maybe paint from the repainted walls or a combination of all those things. But yes there is a smell alright.

AMT: And what did the police say?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well they believe the fire was deliberately set. They found a melted container and matches at the scene. The hotel has surveillance video so the police will be able to look at that too. But so far no suspect no arrest.

AMT: And what about the people in the hotel? What did they experience that night?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well it sounded pretty frightening. The fire alarms went off and the hotel was evacuated. One of the women I spoke to is a dentist from Sudan. She's staying at the hotel with her husband and eight month old daughter. I'm not using her name because she was worried about her own safety and the safety of relatives back home. But here is how she described what happened that night.

SOUNDCLIP

It was like a nightmare when we hear the alarm and we were taking the stairs, we are holding the children even from other people children because they were in hurry and they were crying. Most of them they were almost sleepy. So we were walking and unfortunately there was a paint in this [unintelligible]. So it was difficult even to move and to hold your legs and to come down to see what's going on. We thought maybe it is something like any- something like it maybe smoke from like one they happened from the washing machine like that. But what's the big shock that we know that someone is trying to attack us here in the hotel. Because we're feeling safe there. Even the children they can run in the outside, even for late night, we feel safe. I can move around by myself without my husband. But now even I can't stay in the room without closing the door, locking the door because I'm not feeling safe no more.

AMT: It sounds scary for people who have already been through a lot. What did she think was behind it?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well I mean we don't know who was responsible for this but she felt quite sure that the hotel was targeted because refugees are staying there.

SOUNDCLIP

I know. I know there is some small groups, I know I can see in the news sometimes there are some people there protesting that they are saying that they are taking no money ,that they are taking our taxes just to give them a better life. But this is not true. We are just want to find a safe place. We love everyone. We don't have a problem with anyone, just we want to live in peace. I want to tell them that just leave us in peace. We will not hurt you never ever.

AMT: You can hear in her voice that she's shaken up. The fire wasn't the only thing that had people upset, though, was it?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well that's right. There have been a series of incidents. The same day as the fire Faith Goldie used the hotel as a backdrop for a press conference. She's one of several people running for mayor of Toronto and is probably best known for an interview she did on a neo nazi podcast during the Charlottesville riots. In this press conference she described the people staying at the hotel as illegal migrants and she promised that, if she were elected, she would have them removed from Toronto's shelter system including hotels and motels. She's also talked about like bussing them to Ottawa to the lawn of Trudeau's office. So that's another example of why people in the hotel are feeling targeted.

AMT: And you mentioned an online video about the refugee claimants at the hotel.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Yes I hesitate to give this video too much attention but just about everyone I talked to at the hotel mentioned it. It's now had more than 100,000 views. I'll just play you a couple of short excerpts to give you a sense of the tone.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN 1: Look at this guys. It says free money. Look at this. Free money on the wall. Arrow that way.

MAN 2: This is unbelievable.

WOMAN: Oh my God.

MAN 2: Free money with a frikking arrow. They know.

MAN 1: [Unintelligible] You're getting free money.

WOMAN: I almost puked.

MAN 2: The smell was...

WOMAN: Oh my God. I almost puked. [Coughs]

AMT: So this is a video with two young men and a young woman.

JULIE CHRYSLER: That's right.

AMT: Like 20 something, it looks like.

JULIE CHRYSLER: About that I would say.

AMT: Did you observe anything like what they show when you were there?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I did not notice any of the bad smells at the hotel except from the gasoline fire. I didn't notice any graffiti, manager at the hotel told me 'look these refugee claimants are just like any other guests'. And the hotel gave me a statement saying they were honored to assist the City of Toronto by providing this accommodation. And the other thing to note about this video is like, look, there is a pretty obvious political message attached to it. One of the men in the video is wearing a sweatshirt and the slogan on it says make Trudeau a drama teacher again.

AMT: Okay. There you go. What did the people living at the hotel have to say about that video?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well they said that the video was not truthful and they felt pretty angry and hurt by it they said. Here's some of what I heard from a man named Louis. He didn't want to share his full name or what country he comes from because he says he comes from a prominent family and he fears for his life.

SOUNDCLIP

A lot of things were said about us and about the management here which are true. And they [unintelligible] things I will not forget. 'Free money' written on the wall. There is no free money. First of all, I'm a taxpayer where I came from. I have my card here. So I know what it is like, taxpayers money. I know what it is like. But even the money we get, we are grateful there's no free money.It is not even enough money. So whoever written that it's not from us. Because if we could've written that, we were going to that the money is not enough, not free money. So that did not come from us. Obviously somebody wrote it just for that purpose; to descredit us, to malign us. It's an abuse, I mean.

AMT: Julie there was a column in The Toronto Sun that compared this hotel to a refugee camp. Is that fair?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well, Anna Maria, it is true that there are hundreds of newcomers staying at the hotel. The City of Toronto says that, as of October 1st, 577 refugee claimants were staying there in 146 rooms.

SOUNDCLIP

[Children making noises]

JULIE CHRYSLER: Here a little bit of the sound I gathered there. There's quite a few children staying at the hotel and so you do see kids playing. These little boys that I recorded here, there they were goofing around as they waited to go downstairs for dinner. It was pretty cute actually. One of them was doing backflips, kind of impressive. And basically you know people are living there so there was more daytime activity than you might see at a business hotel when people are usually out and about during the day. And the other thing is that COSTI, the settlement services agency, they've taken over a few rooms and turned them into offices. So on the floors there it has a little bit of a different feeling than you might get in a chain hotel, it is a little bit more of an office kind of feel.

AMT: So what impact have all the events of the past two weeks been having on the people who stay at this hotel?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well let me give you another illustration of the kind of unease that people are feeling. So at one point I was with Mario Calla from COSTI and recording a bit of background sound and listen to what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds: Indistinct chatter and c=children playing]

GUEST: What is this? Are you recording someone?

MARIO: No no no. She's from CBC. I'm the executive director of COSTI. (Kids SFX) People have been very nervous since that incident about people coming in and especially that press conference outside and so they see someone with a microphone or a smart phone and they may be taping them and they get obviously very upset.

JULIE: It is completely understandable especially under the circumstances.

MARIO: Hopefully I'll figure out how to get back.

JULIE: It is a bit of a maze isn't it?

MARIO: It is.

COSTI staff: Hello hello.

MARIO: You are very vigilant! Thank you.

JULIE: It's a good quality.

GUEST: I had to quickly go and call them.

MARIO: Good thank you for doing that.

GUEST: I appreciate that thank you.

MARIO: So is she a guest?

COSTI staff: She is a client She is a client yes. Just everyone is a little more vigilant over the last couple of days.

AMT: So it sounds as if she was worried that you and Mario were there to make a video to kind of like do a gotcha thing, in the hallways.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Yes that's the feeling that I got for sure, for sure.

AMT: And what is the hotel doing about that?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well the hotel is installing security cameras on each floor. COSTI already had security guards for the daytime. But Mario told me they brought in more to cover the night as well.

AMT: And what's being done to get people out of the hotel and into more permanent housing?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well look this is this is the real challenge, right? These refugee claimants are coming into a tight housing market in Toronto. COSTI is working with landlords trying to help them. I talked to a bunch of people there who were doing that. And some of the advice that they're giving people is to try smaller cities where rents might be more affordable. At the end of September the federal government did announce it would be extending funding for these hotel stays for another four weeks. I asked the Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussein for an interview for the story but he wasn't available. I did get a brief statement from his office that said in part that it's not uncommon for governments or service provider organizations to use temporary accommodation such as hotel rooms to house refugees.

AMT: And in the meantime what did people say about having to live in a hotel for weeks or months at a time?

JULIE CHRYSLER: Well, Anna Maria, I mean anybody who travels for business knows that hotels can be great for a short stay. I don't know about you, but after a while I start to miss cooking for myself. And you know just the comfort of being in my own space. But let me leave you with what Louis told me about what it's been like. He's been at the hotel for ten weeks now.

SOUNDCLIP

I have three kids and my wife and we share one room. In that room is a living room. It's the bedroom. It's the playground for the kids. It's not easy, it's not convenience. So we're not - we are not 100 pecent comfortable. But I mean we are thankful for all we get, but truth be told what we get here is supportive but a hotel is still a shelter is not a home.

AMT: It's an interesting point. People want them to move on but they want to move on too. They're looking to go somewhere else and start their lives anew.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Yes that's what I kept hearing from people. Like they really are hoping to find a more permanent situation. And really hoping to start their lives here and you know just be safe.

AMT: Interesting thank you Julie.

JULIE CHRYSLER: Thanks Anna Maria.

AMT: The Currents producer Julie Chrysler with me in our Toronto studio. Let us know your impressions of what you're hearing you can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our websitecbc.ca/thecurrent. And if you're joining us halfway through, go to our website or or check out our podcast and listen again.

[Music]

AMT: Well it is a day a lot of people have been waiting for when recreational marijuana becomes legal next week. Next Wednesday October 17th Canada is in store for sweeping social economic and legal changes provinces, municipalities and individuals will soon learn just how prepared they are for this new era. Monday I'm going to be in Ottawa to host a special town hall at the Canadian Museum of Nature. Here's our producer Geoff Turner to tell you more about that.

GEOFF TURNER: Next Monday in Ottawa we're exploring the issues around the legalization of cannabis in Canada. We'll learn about the challenges for regulators law enforcement and consumers. We'll have a feature interview with Bill Blair minister of border security and organized crime reduction and the man responsible for bringing the new law into force.

SOUNDCLIP

Frankly it was it was obvious that the system of criminal sanction as the sole means of control for cannabis was not working and keeping it out of the hands of the kids, and it was enriching criminal enterprise at the billions of dollars every year. And so you know a smarter approach, approach based on the best advice and the best evidence that we could get. An approach the ways in which you could reduce the social and health harms of cannabis use and misuse.

GEOFF TURNER: Will convene an expert panel to address your legal, practical and historical questions about cannabis in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

While I was still working at NBC we started a delivery service and so patients that were coming to the hemp store looking for access to cannabis, we started delivering cannabis to them. And it was a bicycle and a backpack and a pager, back in the days of pagers and that was the very beginning of the roots of the compassion club.

GEOFF TURNER: We'll hear how Canadians are learning to talk about cannabis in the legalization era. And we'll dip into the archives to hear how we've talked about pot in the past.

SOUNDCLIP

It affects your brain functioning and your ability to intellectually and socially function. Far from giving you a social adjustment and adaptability, it in fact makes you an isolate and it's a load of crap to say that this drug is not harmful to the system and should be decriminalized.

GEOFF TURNER: If you're in Ottawa and you want to join us, tickets are free. Visit our website to get yours. Doors open at 6:30 PM and The event runs from 7:00 to 9:00. Hope to see you there.

AMT: Well if you can join us in person in Ottawa we will broadcast that event. We're calling our special In The Weeds and we will get into the weeds. You will hear it. Wednesday October 17th on The Current, the day recreational marijuana becomes legal in Canada. And Geoff Turner by the way is host of the CBC podcast On Drugs and he's one of our producers. So check out his podcast on drugs on the CBC Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's really worth checking out.

[Music]

The CBC News is next and then the future of food in an uncertain world defined by climate change. After this week's dire report from the UN about the planet's trajectory we're asking which foods are endangered and which foods we could eat to help combat climate change. A lot of people are already working on a lot of this. It's not all doom and gloom. People do have some answers and they're working on them. We'll hear what some of that is and some of the debate around it. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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'Eat less steak and ice cream': What climate change means for the food you love

Guests: Samuel Myers, Evans Fraser, Ron Bonnett

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come today in honor while the case revolving around Cindy Gladue reaches the highest court in the land, and in to many, our entire justice system and its treatment of indigenous people are what's really on trial. In half an hour, we will revisit the story of Cindy Gladue, an indigenous woman who died a horrific death in 2011, only to have the accused acquitted in a trial that keep Indignities on the victim. Looking back at her case through the lens of Me Too and Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women. But first some bitter food for thought.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: We are seeing...

VOICE 2: In their report today scientists with the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, issued a dire warning that the can only handle another half degree more.

VOICE 3: Limiting warming to 1.5 degrees C implies changes on an unprecedented scale.

VOICE 4: The report suggests everything from how we get around to what we would have to change fast.

AMT: Well there you go, some of the difficult to swallow - forgive me - news this week from the latest U.N. report on climate change. Yesterday on this program we talked about that key recommendation of slowing the earth's warming by 1.5 degrees above pre-industrial levels. We're going to focus today on one all important facet of our daily lives and its relationship with climate change, and that is food. Because one of the most troubling scenarios in this week's report is the prospect of massive food shortages. If we are unable to keep a better lid on rising temperatures crops such as weed maize and rice are likely to be affected. It's also true that what we eat could be part of the solution. The report said one big part of reducing emissions could be accomplished if we focused on a plant based diet and moved away from consuming meat. Evan Fraser joins me to talk about the future of food in a changing world. He is director of the Arrell Food Institute and the Canada Research Chair in global food security at the University of Guelph. Evan Fraser joins me from Guelph Ontario. Hi.

EVAN FRASER: Hi there, nice to be here.

AMT: Well before we really get into this I just want to understand, you see this as a grand challenge. You actually see this as a challenge we can rise to.

EVAN FRASER: Yes I think that when the history books of the 21st century are written there's going to be a big chapter about agriculture and food and how to sustainably feed the world's growing population. But I also think that this is a huge opportunity and it's an opportunity that Canada in particular is poised to take advantage of.

AMT: Okay so now that you have that optimistic view let's get into the nitty gritty. How would you describe the potential impact of climate change on our planet's ability to feed us?

EVAN FRASER: Well it's going to be very significant. There's no there's no two ways around that. And like I said this is a grand challenge. This is the sort of challenge that will in some ways define this century, or one of the challenges that will define the century. So in terms of climate change impacts we can expect in mid latitude areas, areas closer to the equator, we can expect in general hotter and drier conditions, more extreme weather and probably a major shift away from agriculture in some key bread breadbaskets. Canada, like I said a few seconds ago, is likely to benefit from this. We have an abundant growing base of abundant land base and we're also probably going to get slightly longer growing seasons, which will benefit our farmers at least initially.

AMT: And in terms of the number of people who we need to feed in the world, the population is at some point five billion right now and will go to nine or 10 billion with how many years?

EVAN FRASER: Yes. The expectation is somewhere between nine and 10 billion by mid to late century. And then we're not sure where the plateau will reach but probably between nine and a half and 10 and a half billion, by late this century, early next century is where are the demographers think the population level. Put that into context that means that we're going to have to produce probably 70 percent more food to keep up with demand. And the Economist magazine ran an issue a few years ago based on this. And the quotation that stands out in my mind is they said that the farmers over the next 50 years will have to produce more food than all farmers over the last 10,000 years have produced cumulatively.

AMT: That's incredible.

EVAN FRASER: Well it's an enormous challenge. It is indeed a grand challenge.

AMT: So OK so let's look at this how much good do you think it would do if we moved away from our animal based diets and eat more plants?

EVAN FRASER: There is an emerging consensus in the scientific literature that a plant based diet will not only - or more of a plant based diet - will not only be better for our bodies, in that we're supposed to eat a diet rich in fruits and vegetables, but also requires less energy, less water, generally speaking less land to produce. Now I say this and I'm not a vegetarian and I love both steak and ice cream, and I don't want to imagine a world without steak and ice cream. I think most of us who are scientists in this area and indeed also people that are part of the industry are seeing that we're going to have to eat less steak and ice cream in the future, and use shift to more of a plant based diet.

AMT: So what are some of the ways we can make animal agriculture less damaging to the environment?

EVAN FRASER: What a great question. So on one hand I think we're facing a future where consumers are going to have to eat less of this product. But there's a tremendous amount that industry can and indeed is already doing, and backed up by science like my colleagues at the University of Guelph do to reduce the impacts. Things like precision agriculture where for instance you might put a identity tracker RFID tag, a radio frequency tag, on a cow so that as that dairy cow puts her head into a feed in her life history is read by the feed bin. And she's given exactly the right type of ration and quantity of ration for optimal health. So that we're not over or underfeeding or animals which is a bit of a problem, or has been a bit of a problem. So we can be much more efficient. We can also breed livestock which produces less methane gas, or less greenhouse gases. So there's a lot that industry and science can do to help reduce the impact of animal agriculture. At the same time as consumers are going to probably have to shift to choose to eat more of a plant based diet. And then there's the issue that we can develop new products for consumers to eat. And there's an explosion of interest in what are called alternative proteins. And insect proteins often get people's attention because there's a bit of a yuck factor there, but there's also a lot of soy products and plant based protein products which big companies are really starting to investigate. Because they're suggesting we can give consumers a large number of new choices.

AMT: I know it has side can buy Cricket flour now in the grocery store.

EVAN FRASER: Absolutely so. Canada's largest food processor, Maple Leaf, has made major investments in the last couple years including in alternative proteins, including taking investment in a company or farm around [unintelligible] then makes this Cricket powder for President’s Choice. That's an example of this.

AMT: And so nutritionists have told us for a long time it's healthier eat less meat, more plants but that means changing behavior. How does that play into it?

EVAN FRASER: Well first of all we have to realize that you know animal protein is actually very healthy. We just typically, say in Canada, we probably eat more than we should. And nutritionists say about 50 percent of our diets should be fruits and vegetables and we're not doing that. So we have to therefore convince consumers to shift their behavior. And that's a mixture of public education, specifically targeting school children and things like that to improve what you might call food literacy and food skills around fruit and vegetables. We need to be investing in the research to promote both products that fruit and vegetables can produce, but also offer better ways of growing and producing fruit and vegetables. And over the last 50 years we've put a huge amount of effort in research in commodities like wheat or soy and that's been great. But we haven't put as much research effort into horticulture for instance. So there's a bunch of stuff we can do at the research level. And then I think there's a demographic issue here Canada's is becoming - let's take up Canada for instance - Canada is becoming more multicultural and that's actually shifting diets just as that as the nature of our population changes. We're also growing although as a population and that's also changing the nature of our demand. So there's a whole lot of these factors that are sort of colliding to mean that consumers are already making changes that are maybe perhaps would have been unexpected a generation ago.

AMT: Okay so Evan, stay with me. I want to bring another guest into this conversation. Ron Bonnett is the president of the Canadian Federation of agriculture. He's a cattle farmer near Bruce Mines in Northern Ontario. And Ron Bonnett joins us now. Hi.

RON BONNETT: Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: What do you think of the climate change panel recommending people eat less meat and more plants?

RON BONNETT: Well you mentioned I am a beef farmer. That would suggest that I wouldn't be on agreement on that. Well I think one of the things, it was mentioned in your previous interview about maybe a cultural shift. I don't think we're going to shift people away completely from eating meat. But that being said, the agriculture sector can do a lot to reduce carbon footprint of producing all kind of meat. In fact a lot has been done, feed conversion rates, for example the amount of green fed produce in eggs or chicken or turkey has improved dramatically over the last year. We doing a lot of work in the cattle industry as well. We are getting increased productivity and aircraft to reduce the footprint that we're putting in to every pound of meat we produce. So if you think of trying to shift people from one type base to another brigade immediately, that's not going to happen. But I think we have a real opportunity in agriculture to reduce the carbon footprint we have in producing meat products.

AMT: Tell me a bit about your farm. So you're a cattle farmer but what else are you doing>

RON BONNETT: Now we do grow some greens. There are a lot of [unintelligible] is growing them for the cattle that we have. But just to give you an example, over the last number of years, we've shifted the way we [unintelligible] animals to a system called rotational grazing. We move the cattle every second or third day. So on the same land base we're producing twice as much meat per acre as we did 15 years ago just by making that one small change. We are already looking into genetics to get animals with better genetic potential to grow pastor to again reducing that carbon footprint. And with our land base, we've kept building the amount of land we are using for feeding the cattle and we're actually growing more greens now on our farm as well.

AMT: And Evan talked about some of the ideas for cutting emissions from cattle farms. Do you see that being implemented in Canadian farms?

RON BONNETT: It is being implemented as we speak. In fact where we've been working with some of the large buyers of a period. [Unintelligible] looking at the whole idea of sustainability, weeing what we can do to reduce the impact on the environment. And not just carbon, it's water and air quality issues as well and really trying to develop the best practices for reducing that impact. If we can reduce the carbon footprint substantially that'll take us towards our goal of trying to reduce the overall carbon impact worldwide.

AMT: So Bruce Mines is up near Sault Ste Marie, am I right, Ontario?

RON BONNETT: That's correct.

AMT: Okay so how much potential do you see for expanding farming further north in Canada with the temperature rise?

RON BONNETT: Well Ontario and northern Quebec has the great playbills. There's millions of acres up there that could be developed and there's some work being done on that. So I think with the warmer temperatures that will create an opportunity. One other thing that wasn't mentioned too much with the climate change issue is the variation that we are getting in weather patterns, periods of drought and periods of very wet weather even in the same year. And I think that's one of the things we are going to have to cope with. So it's changing the way we manage our farms. Taking a look at drainage systems to get rid of excess moisture and looking at crop varieties that can withstand periods of draught as well. So there's a lot of innovation that needs to take place over the next number of years just to adapt and not necessarily mitigate climate change but to adapt.

AMT: Evans Fraser, I’m going to bring you in here. Is it a good idea to look at producing crops further north? What happens as that soil becomes softer for farming?

EVAN FRASER: Well let me just start by saying I agree with everything that that Ron said. There's a huge amount that industry can and is doing to reduce its carbon footprint, and things like rotational grazing are exactly the right idea to take the carbon footprint of our food and farming systems down. In terms of farming farther in the north, there’s no question that the science suggests that as the temperature warms Canada will enjoy a longer growing season and that will probably allow us to cultivate more land in the north. And I am very enthusiastic about that. For instance the governor of the Northwest Territories has recently put out an egg strategy for the first time because they're starting to see potential, even that far north, in addition to the area that Ron has talked about.

AMT: Isn't there a lot of carbon in that soil though?

EVAN FRASER: So there's trade-offs, exactly as we move further north we have to make sure that we keep the carbon in the soils. And actually when you start looking at northern soils, there's actually more carbon in the top 50 centimeters of those soils bound up in the soil than there is in the atmosphere entirely. So when we start thinking about pushing that northern frontier up we really have to be careful about doing a very sensitive form of agriculture that keeps carbon in the ground.

AMT: Ron Bonnett, how optimistic are you that Canadian farmers can and will play a role in producing food the world needs in a changing climate?

RON BONNETT: Well I think we're quite willing to accept that challenge. In fact Industry Canada just released a report recently taking a look at the opportunities for Canadian agriculture. I think we see it as an opportunity but I would echo some of things the Evan was talking about. There will be challenges that we need to face when we meet those markets but to best create an opportunity forCanadian agriculture. But I think what we need is to research the investment. There's of things I think on the policy that governments can do to help encourage farmers to make the right move, to not only reduce the carbon footprint but also to become increasingly a supplier for food for the world market.

AMT: Okay Ron we'll leave it there but thank you for your time today.

RON BONNETT: Okay thank you.

AMT: That's Ron Bonnett he's a farmer near Bruce Mines in Northern Ontario. He is president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. Evan Fraser is still with me. He's the Canada Research Chair in global food security at the University of Guelph. So Evan, eyes wide open, what you're saying is we know that there is that trade off and you got to figure it out, if farming is going to move further and use some of that soil.

EVAN FRASER: Yes absolutely but I think that gives us an opportunity to be creative and imaginative about what food production means, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to take the style of agriculture based on a few commodities and a couple of animal species and roll it orth. I am aware of some first nations communities and some research with indigenous groups that are looking at mixing, say, blueberries and forestry products together with some grazing animals. And so there may be styles of agriculture, food production, which look very very different and have a very very different environmental impact. And it's that kind of thing that I think we should be opening ourselves up to.

AMT: And I want to ask a little bit more about crops. What are you seeing in how food crops in Canada are already being affected by changes in the climate?

EVAN FRASER: Well it's really interesting I mean on one hand we've got issues of pollinator dependent crops so my colleague Nigel reindeer's a lot of work on this and he shows that a large number of our fruits and vegetables need pollinators to actually make the fruit emerge. Well one of the things that's climate change is causing is a change in the date when pollinators are being hatched and are emerging from their nests, vs. the date when the flowers on the plants are actually blooming. And historically pollinators and flowers hatch and bloom at the same time. But climate change is causing that to fall out of sync with each other and that's causing problems for things like the blueberry industry on the East Coast. Remember spring of 2012, for Ontario's apple industry, where we had a normally warm March that caused the apple blossoms to come out early. Then they got nailed by that late April frost and 90 percent of Ontario's apple harvest was destroyed that year. Things like that which Ron was mentioning, this weird weather patterns which farmers are going to have to adapt to and we're already seeing the effects of those sorts of things specifically on our pollination-dependent crops, but also other crops as well.

AMT: It is worth paying attention to obviously. Research is also showing that greenhouse gas emissions are already changing the food we eat by making it less nutritious. So I want to bring another person in to talk about that with us. Samuel Myers is the director of the planetary Health Alliance. That's an organization that links environmental change and human health. He is also principal research scientist at Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Samuel Myers joins us from Cambridge Massachusetts. Hi.

SAMUEL MYERS: Hi there. Great to be with you.

AMT: Nice to have you with us. So what have you found out about how CO2 is affecting plants we'd already?

SAMUEL MYERS: Well we found that when we grow staple food crops, things like rice and weed and soy at a concentrations of carbon dioxide that we expect to see the middle of this century, that they show significant reductions in nutrients that are really important for human health like iron and zinc and protein.

AMT: And what does that mean going forward then?

SAMUEL MYERS: Well we spend all the time trying to figure that out. So you know the first question is how is CO2 changing nutrients in crops. So we ended up going 41 cultivars of six different staple food crops on seven locations, in three continents, over 10 years and were able to really show that nutrients are significantly reduced as a result of rising CO2 but at least so what questions that you just asked. So that question can only be answered by thinking about what people in different populations around the world are eating, and whether they're getting enough of those nutrients or not, and whether they're depending on the crops that are losing nutrients for critical contributions. And so we just finished doing our work over the last year or two. And what we're finding is worrisome. It is that roughly 150 to 175 million people in the world would be pushed in to new risk of zinc and protein deficiency, and over a billion women and children who already are at higher risk for iron deficiency would be losing more than 4 percent of their dietary iron, just from CO2 induced changes in these crops.

AMT: Evan Fraser how alarming is that to you?

EVAN FRASER: Well I', going to so it's quite alarming. I mean in Canada we suffered from overabundance more than under abundance. So this is a problem that Sam is rightfully pointing out is affecting the poorer parts of the world. And here I'd like to note there was a United Nations report on food insecurity, that came out two weeks ago, that showed the third year in a row told total rates of malnutrition are up, and under nutrition are up globally. And we're actually seeing a reversal in the trend towards hunger. And the sort of issues that Sam's talking about are going to exacerbate that. Something like one in four or one in five women of reproductive age globally is already at risk of anemia. And then if we lose iron from their diets because of carbon emissions, as Sam just points out, we're going to actually accelerate this problem that's already very worrisome.

AMT: So we do talk about eating more of our plant based diet. But do we also have to talk about what plants people are eating and what plants will be cultivated in the future?

EVAN FRASER: Absolutely yes. We really need to be thinking about what is optimal nutrition that is both sustainable and healthy. And so we need we need to be thinking about meat and things like meat as a component of our diet, but then we also need to be thinking about breeding plants cultivars that are resilient to these changes that Sam's talking about.

AMT: Sam, is it because of the nutrients on our soil that the plants are not getting? Explain a little more and I mean why this is happening.

SAMUEL MYERS: Yeah I wish I could explain it to you. We don't really understand the mechanism very well. There was a sort of prevalent theory that this was what was being called carbohydrate dilution. Meaning that in the presence of higher concentrations of carbon dioxide the plants were just making more starch, and the starch was sort of washing out the other nutrients. But the research we did subsequent research has shown sort of idiosyncratic changes, some nutrients following, some minerals that are particularly significant for health like [unintelligible] and magnesium are rising. So it doesn't look like they're just being washed out but it isn't really clear exactly why rising CO2 is affecting nutrients. And I would argue that's actually a really important kind of contextual point here is that we're in this really interesting moment, as Evan said, where we need to you know increase food production at historic rates in order to meet demand. At the very same time that we are transforming just about all the biophysical conditions on our planet from temperature, to precipitation, to the biology that Evan was talking about and we're transforming those biophysical conditions at the fastest rate in the history of our species. And so there's this challenge of how do we manage these rapidly changing environmental conditions at the same time that we really need to ramp up the amount of food produced that we produce on a baseline of already feeling, in the sense that over 820 million people go hungry every day. And so, it is a big challenge and I just I guess I would echo what I've been hearing already this morning, which is that from down here in the States I look up to Canada and see a really extraordinary opportunity. It's a country that has connection between an outstanding university system and its political and governmental system and its industry in a way that I have not seen before.

AMT: Well I am going to end on that optimistic note now in the middle of all that. We have got to it there, gentlemen. Thank you. Samuel Myers, at the Planetary Health Alliance and public health research scientist at Harvard. Evan Fraser, director of the Arrell Institute in Canada Research Chair and Global Food Security at the University of Guelph. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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Canada's justice system holds Indigenous women at fault for 'ending up murdered,' says NDP MLA

Guests: Julie Kaye, Muriel Stanley, Nahanni Fontaine, Val Napoleon

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. I want to give you a warning for our next story. It does contain graphic and potentially disturbing details of sexual assault.

SOUNDCLIP

[Demonstrators chanting]

I think it's sent a strong message that if you are an indigenous women, in Alberta, your life doesn't matter.

AMT: Well the sounds of a protest in favor of Cindy Gladue an indigenous woman who was violated in death, and many would say violated again after her death by our courts. The details of how Cindy Gladue died are gruesome. She bled to death in the bathtub in an Edmonton hotel room, seven years ago in 2011. An Ontario truck driver Bradley Barton was charged in her death. He was acquitted of first degree murder and of manslaughter at trial. The defense argued that Ms. Gladue, as a sex worker, had engaged in consensual sex that night despite an 11 centimeter wound to her virginal wall. At the trial, not only was Ms. Gladue Referred to repeatedly as quote "a native girl" and a "prostitute" by the defense, the prosecution and occasionally the judge, but in an unprecedented display part of her body, Ms. Gladue's pelvic area, was held up and shown to the jury as evidence. Alberto's Court of Appeal ordered a retrial and Bradley Barton is fighting against having his case retried in an appeal that is before the Supreme Court of Canada today. What our top court decides and what it says could have an important effect both on sexual assault laws in this country and on the treatment of indigenous people in Canada's criminal justice system. Joining me to talk about what is at stake is Muriel Stanley then a long time activist for Indigenous women. She's the founder and president of the Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal women which is an organization that is one of the many interveners in this case. Muriel Stanley then joins us from Ottawa were later today she will attend that Supreme Court hearing. From Saskatoon we are joined by Julie Kaye, an assistant professor of sociology specializing in criminology at the University of Saskatchewan. She's been working with the Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal women as a researcher on this case. Hello Muriel. Hello Julie.

MURIEL STANLEY: Hello, Anna Maria

JULIE KAYE: Hi.

AMT: Muriel I want to start with you why is Cindy Gladue's case so important?

MURIEL STANLEY: It is so important because it embodies all the discriminatory and perjedicail acts that have been perpetuated on our women, not only Cindy, but many many women who are victims of the system of 'justice'.

AMT: And why is it important for you to be at the Supreme Court today, you personally?

MURIEL STANLEY: Well this said commemorates at least 40 years of working to even get somebody interested in addressing the kind of carnage that's going on. And I am so humbled today because, for the first time, I believe the factors of discrimination and of prejudice against the women are shown in an artful light. Me, as an indigenous woman, as a citizen of Canada, I am appalled and angry and and very upset about the kind of treatment, both in life and in death, the violation of Cindy Gladue's rights, her dignity, the lack of respect that was shown to her as a person.

AMT: During the trial there was graphic physical evidence brought into the court room. Cindy Gladue'd preserved pelvic area were brought in to the court room. There was an outcry over this. What stays with you from that trial?

MURIEL STANLEY: That they wouldn't have done it to anyone else. My experience is if you're an Aboriginal woman in this country you are victimized. And I was cited at the United Nations as a human rights defender of Aboriginal women, children and families and what was so in ways that this wouldn't have happened. I was just working at the poster used by the Saskatcwan Police College in which they used the image of an Aboriginal woman for target practice. You know like the kind of discrimination which permeates our society has to be dealt with. And I believe that this court case can bring that forward and can make the right choices, the courtrooms, can read them selves of the prejudice that has existed for so long, and things can happen if there is a political will. And myself, as a woman living in Canada, the idea that Bradley Barton was acquitted is so shocking because the kind of methods that were used to belittle her and to give absolutely no credit to her whatsoever, and to blame her, and to do all the things that are built into her system is absolutely important and has to be dealt with. And we have this opportunity to change the approach and bring justice to a woman who is a person.

AMT: Well let me ask you, let me ask you before I go to Julie. Muriel Stanley remind us who Cindy Gladue was.

MURIEL STANLEY: She was a person, an individual, a human being. She wasn't a specimen. She was a wonderful person that was striving to provide for her family and I just believe that she had no one, no one on this earth is going to agree to be murdered as is implied that happened, that she said was okay. And that will be argued. I am hoping justice will be done. And that's why I am here. And for every single woman in this country, if Bradley Barton is sequestered, it has huge implications that other women may be subjected, their body subjected to that kind of unfeeling and specimen-like presentation that was done.

AMT: Julie Kaye, what is the supreme court hearing today exactly?

JULIE KAYE: So we're hearing you know really another case as a horrific example of how the Canadian legal system is really working in the way it was designed. So it was designed to dehumanize and to punish Indigenous women. And so what's at stake today and what will be heard is whether or not the Supreme Court of Canada is going to uphold the strong decision that was provided by the Alberta Court of Appeal.

AMT: Because the Alberta Court of Appeal said this has to go a retrial. And so it is actually Bradley Burton who is appealing that. He does not want to go to retrial and you guys are intervening to try to convince the court that it must uphold the Alberta Appeal Court said and send him to retrial.

JULIE KAYE: Exactly. So the institute as well as the legal education act, in fact we intervened at the Alberta Court of Appeal. And so that was the unanimous ruling that detailed some significant errors that took place in the trial and it is these errors that will be under consideration again today.

AMT: Okay so what are the implications of a decision that the court will make then? Talk to me a little bit about the errors.

JULIE KAYE: Sure. So there is a number of areas that are under consideration. One is that the trail of Barton committed and overt abuse of using a woman's sexual history in order to bias the court against Cindy Gladue. So in the court failed to apply what we called Section 276 application, which is Canada's rape shield protection to prevent stereotypes and to prevent prejudice from entering into our judicial reasoning, particularly on consent. And so this allowed prejudice to infect the trial proceedings including a number of discriminatory myths and stereotypes, particularly about Indigenous women as well as women engaged in trading sexual services for payment. So calling her, as you mentioned, calling her 'the prostitute', 'the native girl', relying on discriminatory myths and stereotypes about women trading sex for money and about indigenous women in general. You know we saw in the closing address to the jury Barton's defence Dino Botto said 'she's a prostitute and she's consenting to the sex'. We have established laws in Canada that clearly detailed that a woman's engagement in trading sex for pay is never relevant and in fact is hugely prejudicial in the required analysis of consent. So the hearing today is important to reinforce these principles of consent and particularly the women's rights to sexual autonomy and a right to bodily self-determination.

AMT: And of course this is happening against the backdrop of Me Too. How does this case fit into the collective conversation around consent for our courts?

JULIE KAYE: Yes absolutely we see a number of ways. I think particularly within the context of Canada I were speaking to a context where we purport truth and reconciliation. And we were seeing here that character has a lot of work to do in order to deal with some of the colonial structures and systems like our colonial legal system that continues to violate indigenous women really disregard the humanity of women like Cindy Gladue. So you know in the context of Me Too we have an opportunity here to reinforce some well fought laws on consent, and to uphold the rights of women facing sexual violence. But what we saw at the initial trial was an utter dehumanization of Cindy Gladue and really of all women who face sexual assault.

AMT: Muriel Stanley beyond even this case which is so important what more has to happen for Indigenous women to get the justice they deserve when encountering the legal system?

MURIEL STANLEY: Anna Maria, I want to point out the trauma that has engulfed our community. This trial is only one example of the deliberate persecution by women. And the idea that we would be raising our girls to be possible victims of murder is what we are faced with. Can any family, any mother in this country look at the sign that says 'I don’t want to be the next victim'. How can Canada justify what has happened? I don't think they can. And I think it's absolutely imperative that we stop pretending to do things and really do things to help the indigenous women and girls in this country.

AMT: I’m going to pick up on that with my next guest. Thank you both for speaking with me today.

JULIE KAYE: Thank you.

MURIEL STANLEY: Thank you, Anna Maria.

AMT: That is Muriel Stanley the founder and president of the Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women, one of the interveners before the Supreme Court today. She joined us from Ottawa. Julie Kaye is an assistant professor of sociology with a specialization in criminology at the University of Saskatchewan. She's in Saskatoon. She's been working with Stanley Venne's organization. I have two other guests ready to weigh in with what they think about the case of Cindy Gladue what it reveals about Canada's criminal justice system and the changes it needs to make. Nahanni Fontaine is an NDP Member of Manitoba's legislative assembly. She's a former special adviser on Aboriginal women's issues. She joins us from our Edmonton studio. Val Napoleon is an associate professor of law and director of the new Indigenous Law Degree Program at the University of Victoria. She is in our Victoria studio. Hello to you both.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Good morning.

VAL NAPOLEON: Good morning.

AMT: Nahanni Fontaine what issues did you see with the judges handling of the initial trial of Bradley Barton?

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Well certainly issues that we've seen in so many cases that involve indigenous women where judges, well, really of a whole judicial process from start to finish, construct indigenous women as welcoming violence against their bodies and their persons, or inviting that. And somehow being at fault for ultimately them ending up murdered. And we've seen that in many many different cases of indigenous women. And certainly I think that if there were a case that best illustrates that it would be the case of Miss Gladue, with the language that was used by the judge and by the defence which intrinsically socially negatively constructed Miss Gladue a prostitute which comes with its own markers; sex trade worker, native. When we use the word 'native' intrinsically we bring with it the whole colonial aspect of racism and sexism that constructs indigenous women as less than, which really the violence that's perpetrated against indigenous women is predicated upon. It is constructing indigenous women as less than. We saw that language throughout Miss Gladue's trail here.

AMT: Even by the prosecution, did we not?

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Yes we did.

AMT: So everyone in the courtroom.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Everyone. And what happens is that it's meant to situate violence against indigenous peoples, and in particular indigenous women, as justifiable and perfectly acceptable.

AMT: Val Napoleon the jury was all white. How much do you think that impacted the outcome?

VAL NAPOLEON: Well that's an interesting question and one that's been debated by many people in other cases across Canada. I think it's not just a matter of the jury that one needs to take a look at, but take a look at the construction of the legal institutions that are intended to - you know the story that we tell about Canada is that it's a place where dignity and equality is possible - and so when our institutions fail in achieving that aspiration of law then we need to think about who, not just who the juries are, but who are the lawyers, who are the judges, who are the people around that create the institutions that are intended to act on our behalf. And I think that there are larger questions and deeper questions that that need to be explored here as well as the specific concerns to do with this case and its appeal.

AMT: And I want to ask about some of those wider issues but let's stick with this case for a minute we did ask for an interview with Bradley Barton's lawyer Dino Batto. He said he was not able to speak to us because of his schedule. He did speak with us back in 2015 about the case. This is a little bit of what he had to say than.

SOUNDCLIP

A lot of people were taking their says you know simplistic reasoning that if he were some white male he must have gone off because she was Aboriginal prostitute. And that's just not a fair thing to say, when you consider all the problems with the crown's case.

AMT: Val Napoleon, what do you make of those comments?

VAL NAPOLEON: Well she was an indigenous woman and he was a white male and we do have a situation in Canada where the numbers of women, indigenous women and girls have gone missing and murdered, so much so that we've had a national inquiry into it. So that is part of this picture. And in addition to that he's right it's not so simplistic. It has to do with how juries are instructed and whether the jury instructions have been able to keep pace with the kinds of jurisprudential changes that have gone on in order to protect the dignity and the quality of people who have been harmed, women who have been harmed. So I think it's not simple it's complicated. But at the same time the reality is yet another case where you have an indigenous woman and a white male and she is the one who gets killed.

AMT: And of course we know earlier this year Gerald Stanley was [unintelligible] by an all white jury in the death of Colten Boushie. What similarities do you see between those cases?

VAL NAPOLEON: Well some of the similarities are obvious in terms of who the participants in those legal processes are. [Coughs] Pardon me, I am just losing my voice here.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Can I answer that Anna Maria?

AMT: Yes go ahead.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: I Think that it's important that we don’t divorce this particular case and what's transpired in this particular case from the totality of judicial processes for Indigenous people for many many years. And so we talk about Gerald Stanley we can talk about, you know just a couple weeks later, Raymond Cormier, we can talk about the case of Pamela George. We can talk about many instances of Justices across Canada. Like Justice Ted Malone who you know noted that Pamela George was indeed a prostitute. Those were his instructions to the jury. Or Calgary's justice Robin camp when he asked a rape victim why didn't she keep her legs together to prevent her rape, to prevent penetration. Or in Quebec when we have Judge Brawn who stated in a sexual assault case involving, again a child, a 17 year old victim who said she was a bit overweight but she probably like the attention. She has a pretty face or even in Manitoba. Judge Robert Dewer who placed blame on the victims when he instructed or noted in the case where they were wearing and then insinuate that sex was in the air and that the offender was just a clumsy Don Juan. So it's so important to put this in the totality of what goes on, particularly for Indigenous women but women in general within the judicial processes.

AMT: Well and in fact, Nahanni Fontaine, you are calling for better education of Canadian judges. Tell us a little bit about what you have tried to do in Manitoba.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Absolutely, yes. So last year I tabled a private member's bill 227 which would require that any new justice of the peace in any new judgers, within 90 days of their appointment, would have to take sexual assault training which includes training on what consent is in rape culture, and how that manifests for victims. And because we've seen all of these different examples that I just provided, we see that this still goes on across the country. And really, in many respects, if you're a judge or JJP you really have no business house presiding over a case if you do not have the proper training. And so that was what the bill was meant to do. In many respects it was in concert and it it complemented our Rona Ambrose's Bill 337 which would require of federal judges to get that training.

AMT: That's sitting in the Senate right now it. And also I just want to point out the Minister of Justice said in Manitoba at the time, Heather Steffensen, actually said that your suggestion would violate judicial independence.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Well first off let me just be straight up. I think that that's an absolute cop out. It's a cop out for the government not to do anything and not to be aggressive in protecting victims as they come before the courts. We are not dictating how the training would unfold. The courts still have the independence step to set the criteria when it unfolds, when you take it, home gives it to you. We're not dictating that. All we're saying is that if you are to be presiding over a sexual assault or rape case you must have that training. It is 2008 we must do better for women. First off women that come before the courts. But let's not kid ourselves and think that when we see cases like Miss Gladue or Pamela George or all of these other cases, it fundamentally prevents women from coming forward and reporting their rape or their sexual assault. Because who would want to go before the courts and have yourself dragged through the mud. Nobody would want that. So there is a direct correlation between training and making sure that our judicial processes, from the very beginning- which again let me suggest, also begins with the police as well.

AMT: Okay. And let me just get Val back in here, because we have so much to talk about and our clock is ticking here. Val, at the University of Victoria you now have a program that combines Indigenous and non-indigenous law in the context of what we're talking about. Tell us about the significance of what you're doing at UVic.

VAL NAPOLEON: So we have a brand new launched September dual degree program for that combines Indigenous Law with common law students. After four years will have two degrees, we will have an indigenous law degree and a Canadian law degree. This initiative is a part of their work to rebuild Indigenous Law. We do a lot of different things. We work directly with communities on different kinds of rebuilding and research initiatives as well as putting this program together. We have 26 students that we've accepted this year and in each year we'll be accepting 25 students. So we'll have100 students in four years.

AMT: Are you expecting that that kind of dual education will change the kinds of things that Nahanni is talking about as we go forward?

VAL NAPOLEON: It's one other change factors. To create societal change you need work on every level. You need activism, you need people in the court rooms, you need lawyers who bring multi juridical perspective in terms of understanding of society, in terms of understanding history and potentiality of law. You need all of these different levels of work that are going on. And rebuilding Indigenous law, if you just think for a tiny second about the extensive role that Canadian law has in people's lives and what people are able to do, their identity and their ability to participate in government and all these different things, those are all the reasons that Indigenous law is important to to helping to rebuild indigenous communities.

AMT: Thank you both for taking the time to speak with us today about this. We will be watching to see how this unfolds. Really important to hear both you voices.

NAHANNI FONTAINE: Miigwech.

AMT: Nahanni Fontaine NDP Member of Manitoba's Legislative Assembly, former special adviser on Aboriginal women's issues. She's in Edmonton today. Val Napoleon is an associate professor of law and director of the new Indigenous Law Degree Program at the University of Victoria. She's in Victoria. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

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