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The Current Transcript for July 16, 2018

Host: Ioanna Roumeliotis

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We'll see what happens. Just a loose meeting. It's not going to be big schedule. I don't think it should take a very long period of time and we'll see where it leads.

IOANNA ROUMELIOTIS: He's playing it cool, but critics say U.S. President Donald Trump is playing into Russian President, Vladimir Putin's hand. The two meeet one on one in Helsinki. What are they talking about? And why does it matter? Coming right up. Also today, he's a Canadian icon, but is his coffee?

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VOICE: I like hockey and I like Tim Hortons. But the notion that if you don't, there's somehow something wrong with you. You should be hauled out back and beaten, that bugs me as well.

IR: Yes, Tim Hortons has for years been considered by many as Canadian as a beaver guzzling maple syrup during a game of pond hockey. But after being touched by scandals and sold to foreign owners, more and more Canucks like Rick Mercer are questioning the double-double status as a holy Canadian grail. With plans to open 1500 locations across China, we're asking whether Canadians have tired of having their national brand so closely connected to the coffee and doughnut chains brand. That conversation in half an hour. Then, onto another discussion of national cuisine. This time in Italy, where tiramisu is more than a delightful dessert. We're heading to the first ever World Tiramisu Championship.

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VOICE: The champion of this competition must create a tiramisu with a great equilibrium in the taste.

IR: All that and we'll get the latest from the lead detective investigating the case of alleged Toronto serial killer Bruce McArthur. I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis and this is the summer edition of The Current.

Back To Top »

Trump not the first president to be 'soft' on Russia, says political scientist

Guest: Philip Rucker, David Rothkopf

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Most importantly we have a lot of good things to talk about and things to talk about. We have discussions on everything from trade, to military, to missiles, to nuclear, to China. Well we talked a little bit about China. I think we great opportunities together as two countries that frankly, we have not been getting along very well for the last number of years. I've been here not too long. And with the world awaits and I look forward to our personal discussion, which I think begins now and then we're going to meet our whole team. We all have a lot of questions and hopefully we'll come up with answers, most importantly. It's great to be with you.

IR: That's US President, Donald Trump during his photo op with Russian President, Vladimir Putin, before their one on one summit in Helsinki. What will it mean for the world if the two world leaders do strike up a friendship? Trump and Putin are meeting today in Finland's capital and the summit comes at a key moment. On Friday, 12 Russian officers were indicted by the U.S. Justice Department for hacking into the Democratic National Committee, targeting Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. It was the latest chapter in special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election. Those indictments occurred in the middle of Trump's European tour, after days of rancorous meetings with traditional allies. By all appearances, Donald Trump is reaching out to Vladimir Putin at the same time as he's alienating allies and doing it all, while his presidential campaign is under investigation for possible collusion with Russia during the 2016 election. For the latest on Trump's meeting with Putin, I'm joined by Philip Rucker, the Washington Post's White House bureau chief. He's in Helsinki, Finland. Hello.

PHILIP RUCKER: Hi. Good to be with you.

IR: Thanks for joining us. What's happened so far today in Helsinki?

PR: Well, President Trump and President Putin have just arrived at the Presidential Palace here in Helsinki along the waterfront for their meeting. They had a brief greeting that you just played a clip of a little bit earlier and then they're going to be sitting together one on one, just the two of them and their interpreters, talking for about 90 minutes. It'll be a free flowing conversation. We have very little sense of the agenda and we may not get much of a report on what is discussed because again it's only the two of them together. They're going to be then joined by their advisers and ministers for a more formal working lunch session and then there will be a news conference at the end of the afternoon.

IR: You mentioned that there's no formal agenda, but do you have a sense following this story, what they might be talking about?

PR: Well you know Trump mentioned a number of issues that they want to talk about, including trade, including Syria, including the nuclear arsenals of both countries. There's a lot of pressure as you know in Washington for President Trump to confront President Putin over Russia's interference in the 2016 election. He has pledged to do that. It's unclear how aggressively he will do so, but I would assume that that topic will come up in some way or form. I also expect that they'll talk a little bit about Crimea, that's the peninsula in Ukraine that Russia seized and has annexed in 2014. It was a sign of aggression that has been a top priority for a lot of the Western NATO allies and you know Trump is expected to talk about that as well.

IR: And you mentioned that they're going to be alone together and that's raised concerns about the fact that it's private and off the record.

PR: It sure has.

IR: What are those concerns?

PR: Well the concern is that there's not going to be any official record of what is discussed in that meeting. There's no note taker for example. Normally in a session where two leaders of foreign countries meet, there are note takers along the side of the room who are taking detailed notes, if not a full transcript of what is discussed, so that the governments have a record of what is agreed to, of what the other leader has to say. In this case it's just going to be the two presidents meeting without any such record and the concern, according to a lot of Russia experts, is that Trump is a novice at this. He's not been a foreign policy hand over the years. He has far less experienced in these settings than Vladimir Putin does, a former KGB agent, and that neither Trump nor Putin is a reliable narrator of events. They both lie. They both exaggerate. They both misstate the facts and blur the lines. So it's unclear if we're ever going to get an accurate record of what is discussed in this all important meeting.

IR: And speaking of all those shadows, what has Donald Trump had to say about the Justice Department's indictment of Russian nationals on Friday?

PR: Well he has largely tried to blame this on the Obama administration, saying his predecessor failed to aggressively deal with the issue when the FBI first discovered that Russia was trying to interfere in the election and he's gone on to call the overall investigation led by Robert Mueller, special counsel, a rigged witch hunt. It's a phrase that Trump used twice this morning in tweets that he sent as he was preparing to leave the residence he's staying at here in Helsinki to head to the palace for his meeting with Vladimir Putin. So he's very much playing into the talking points from Moscow, which is that this investigation is sort of a farce. It's not real, it's not a serious thing and should not stand in the way of warmer relations between the two countries.

IR: Well what do you think about that? The fact that Donald Trump says he wants to create a friendship or at the very least, explore one with Putin. What's in it for him?

PR: Well a couple of things. First of all, you know Trump, long before he started running for president, has been intrigued by Putin. Has admired him as a strong leader. Has seen him as sort of someone to look up to in the political realm, as someone who leads his country with a lot of strength and purpose. Of course, Putin is an authoritarian leader, very different from the kinds of presidents we elect in the United States through a democracy, but nonetheless Trump looks up to Putin. So I think he would like to be able to have a closer relationship with him, a warmer rapport. He wants to be buddies, so to speak, but he also, there's some substance there. He thinks that together the United States and Russia can try to solve some of the intractable problems in the world. You look at the strife in Syria for exampl,e maybe there's a deal to be had there. Maybe there's something they can do together to address the situation in North Korea. Maybe there's something they can do on trade. I don't know. Trump is very hopeful about that, but you know it really alarms the traditional western allies including Canada, who feel like Russia is aggressive and trying to to expand its influence.

IR: And what about Vladimir Putin, what's in it for him?

PR: I think Putin very much wants to be able to manipulate Trump and bring him under his belt, so to speak. He's a master at that. He's trained by the KGB. He's been president of Russia for a long time now. He's had these sorts of meetings, it's worth pointing out, with four different US presidents. So he knows how this works. He knows the game and I think he wants to try to bring Trump under his influence.

IR: And quickly before we let you go, Philip you've been following President Trump on his European tour. so how does today's meeting and I know it's just getting started, how does it compare to his meetings with other world leaders?

PR: Well it'll be interesting to see how this meeting with Putin goes. It could potentially turn out to be warmer than his meeting with some of the other leaders. I was with Trump in Brussels last week, Trudeau was there as well, at the NATO summit and Trump effectively ambushed that NATO meeting. He had a lot of demands regarding defense spending commitments and burden sharing among the allies. And it was seen as a very hostile setting. Of course, they did come to some sort of agreement at the end of that meeting and the various NATO countries agreed to increase their defense spending commitments, under instruction from President Trump, but it was not the friendliest of settings. And it's worth pointing out that sort of the leader of the Western Europe, Angela Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany, when Trump arrived in Brussels for that NATO meeting, he was attacking Merkel. He was accusing Germany of being captive to Russia and so there's a real risk there between the United States and Germany and that very much plays into Russia's hand. That is something that Russia wants. Vladimir Putin has an interest in breaking up the Western alliance.

IR: OK we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much.

PR: Thank you.

IR: Philip Rucker is the Washington Post's White House bureau chief. We reached him in Helsinki, Finland. To unpack what's at stake with today's meetings between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, I'm joined by David Rothkopf. He's a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the author of several books. He also served as Deputy Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade Policy in the Clinton administration. David Rothkopf is in Washington D.C. Hello.

DAVID ROTHKOPF: Hi.

IR: How significant is it that Donald Trump is meeting with Putin today?

DR: Well of course, it's very significant when the president of the United States meets with the president of Russia. These are two big powers. It's more significant because there is a cloud hanging over Trump's head that he owes some of his presidency to Putin. That the relationship between Trump and Russia brings with it a lot of questions and of course it comes on the heel of this NATO summit, in which the US relationship with its principal ally, was called into question. And of course NATO has existed, throughout most of its existence, to counterbalance Russia. And so it appears to be a moment in which traditional relationships are shifting geopolitically and that largely has to do with Trump and Putin and the relationship between the two of them. And so to the extent to which this meeting either illuminates that relationship or advances it in some way, I think the attention of the world is reasonably directed in that direction.

IR: And you heard from our earlier guest about the fact that a lot of that meeting will be no notes, unrecorded, it'll be just a private meeting between the two of them and how concerned are you about that? About the fact that they'll be meeting on their own.

DR: Well of course it's very concerning and it's very concerning on several levels. On the most benign level, it's of some concern because Trump is really not a foreign policy specialist. He doesn't have background in this regard. He also has demonstrated that he doesn't really like to do his homework. He doesn't read up. He doesn't prepare. He does things off the cuff. When things are done off the cuff, there can be surprises and we saw that in Singapore, when the president agreed to suspend military exercises, but did so without consulting with our allies in the region or even with his own staff and so that kind of improvisation is disturbing. I think on a darker level of course, Donald Trump is currently under a cloud because of the role that Russia played in the 2016 election and the fact that members of his own campaign may have had some relationship with Russia and the fact that members of his family may be compromised by their financial relationships with Russia. And therefore the idea that he is alone in the room with Putin, who is seen as the person who engineered his election, and to whom some people feel he may be beholden in some ways, is disturbing because there's no telling what kind of conversation they might have or what kind of leverage Putin may have over Trump.

IR: And to your point, this meeting today is happening three days after the Justice Department indicted 12 Russian military intelligence officers for hacking the Democratic campaign during the 2016 US presidential election. So what do you make of that, that this is so recent, that these latest allegations are so recent.

DR: Well I mean I think the indictment, which came out on Friday, did not come out on Friday by accident. I think it's clear that Special Counsel Mueller has known about the Russian involvement for some time. There were reports months ago that he was ready to do this. So why did he do it on the Friday before the Putin meeting? And I think the purpose was to send a message either to Vladimir Putin or to Donald Trump and the message was, this is not an open question as Trump has said it was. This is not a small thing. Two units of Russian military intelligence, the GRU undertook a concerted campaign to intervene in the US election, in order to try to influence the outcome of that election and Mueller was saying we have proof. Now this sends a message to Putin and by the way a very pointed one because they went so far as to name names of Russian military intelligence officers suggesting the quality of their sources and of cyber counter capabilities that the United States has. But of course, this may also be a message to Trump, which is look you can try to sugarcoat this any way you want. The facts will out and the facts are not good facts about Russia and you need to adhere to this. And I would add, that it was not just Mueller and these indictments that was part of this message. The president's own director of national intelligence, the head of the US intelligence services, a Republican former senator from Indiana named Dan Coats, on Friday said the Russians attacked us and they are still attacking us. In other words, the president is not just meeting with someone who is alleged to have been involved in the 2016 elections, the president is meeting with somebody who is currently overseeing, probably directly overseeing, efforts to undermine American democracy. And by the way, not just American democracy, with revelations about the role the Russians played in Brexit, with revelations about the role they tried to play in the French elections, the German elections, Italian elections, elections in central Europe, this is an ongoing campaign at the highest levels.

IR: And given all that, David, if I can jump in.

DR: Sure. Of course.

IR: It doesn't seem that Donald Trump cares so much about the optics, despite that.

DR: Well on the one hand, I think Donald Trump is kind of a perverse character who likes to fly in the face of conventional wisdom and appears to like you know, sending the message I don't care about the optics, I don't play by those rules. But of course we're at a particular juncture in this investigation. If in the next month or two it becomes clearer that members of Trump's campaign actively cooperated with the Russians, perhaps his view of these optics might change.

IR: You know and to that point, if Robert Mueller does prove that the president knew and worked with Russia to undermine the 2016 election, what does that mean for the future of Russian-American relations?

DR: Well, look if he proves that, first of all it's likely to lead to the removal of Trump from office. Even if he proves however that the Trump team cooperated with the Russians, wittingly or even as dupes of the Russians, it's going to put a lot of pressure on future US-Russian relationships. And this kind of glow of victory that Putin has right now, which is his man's in the White House and you can see this in the Russian media. And he cares more about us and he doesn't like Europe and he's doing everything we want, is going to be replaced by either within this administration from the Congress or from a successor administration, a much harsher view towards Putin and to Russia. And I might add, part of the problem is that Barack Obama was not that tough on Russia. Crimea happened on his watch. The hybrid warfare in Ukraine happened on his watch. The Russian intervention in Syria happened on his watch and the 2016 election hacking happened on his watch. And so there have been two presidents who have been fairly soft on Russia. And I think it's very likely that the president elected in 2020, is going to run by saying, no more. We've got to snap back on Russia, we've got to be tough on them. And I think that may change the atmosphere quite a bit. And before it does thoug,h what does this mean? I mean given how Trump's meetings went in Europe and the tone now set in Helsinki, what does this mean for the state of the current global order, if you will, and the health of the Western alliance?

DR: Well, look I think the the Western alliance is in the worst shape it's been in, since it was established at the end of World War II. You saw that in Canada, with the meeting in Charlevoix and the G-7 summit, which was a debacle and the trade wars that Trump is brewing within them, but also the animosity that he's brewing with his fellow leaders, doesn't help. He then went to NATO and he compounded that. So internally within the G7 and within NATO, things are in a bad way. He's now following that up by kissing up to and you know getting as close as he possibly can to Vladimir Putin and I think that's going to exacerbate it. Finally, Trump has waged a war against all of the international institutions that were established in the wake of World War II, trade institutions, security institutions, international alliances and so I sort of worry that that international order is at risk.

IR: OK. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much.

DR: Thank you.

IR: David Rothkopf is a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He was in Washington, D.C. The CBC News is next. Then, Tim Hortons is about to plant the Canadian flag in China, with plans to open 1500 new restaurants there. But how do Canadians feel today about the Tim Hortons brand as our ambassador overseas? Plus, I'll speak with the Toronto detective in charge of the case of alleged serial killer Bruce McArthur. I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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Back To Top »

Bruce McArthur investigation still generating new leads, investigator says

Guest: Hank Idsinga

IR: Hello. I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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IR: Still to come, it was a tough assignment, but CBC reporter, Megan Williams, dug into it, judging the first ever World Tiramisu Competition. The delicious dessert combining coffee, cocoa and mascarpone cheese, has become a symbol of national pride in Italy. Her report in half an hour. Coming up in this half hour, we're looking at another cuisine that's considered by many Canadians to be a national icon, Tim Hortons' coffee and donuts. But first, the latest in a case that grows more grisly by the month.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It's a serial killer.

So beyond what we've seen in Canadian history.

Live outside of alleged serial killer Bruce McArthur's apartment tonight in East Toronto.

Bruce McArthur is now facing three more charges of first degree murder.

You think that these bodies are buried upon people's properties where he worked, is that what you're getting at? That they could be all over the city of Toronto?

Right now, where we've recovered the bodies, are from large planters.

They have been dismembered.

We've never had anything like it.

IR: It's a horrific case that's captured attention across Canada and beyond. An alleged serial killer targeting gay men in Toronto. Selim Esen, Andrew Kinsman, Dean Lisowick, Soroush Mahmudi, Skandaraj Navaratnam, Abdulbasir Faizi, Kirushna Kumar Kanagaratnam and Majeed Kayhan. Bruce MacArthur is charged with first degree murder in the deaths of all eight of those men. And last week, police finished their latest search at Ground Zero, a home on Toronto's Mallory Crescent, where they first discovered human remains in planters. More human remains have been found, raising questions about what that could mean for the investigation and where it goes from here. Det.-Sgt. Hank Idsinga is in charge of the McArthur investigation. We reached him at police headquarters in Toronto. And a warning, some of what you hear may be disturbing. Hello.

HANK IDSINGA: Hello, Ioanna.

IR: For those who haven't been following this case, what's brought us to this point?

HI: Well, in January of 2018, we had identified this address at Mallory, where allegedly Mr. McArthur had worked as a landscaper and had open access to that property. We started recovering dismembered remains of victims that were hidden in planters on the property. And it took weeks and months to identify those remains and we've gone back to that property several times and over the last couple of months we've also done searches at all the properties that we can link to Mr. McArthur through his landscaping business. And we've done searches at close to 100 properties around the GTA and the one we left for last because the odds of finding something there again were quite high, was Mallory.

IR: Can you describe what the search area looked like?

HI: Well we've laid eight charges and we had previously recovered remains identified to seven of those eight victims and we didn't have any remains for the eighth victim. And if you are in the back of the property, the backyard of the property goes about 50 feet back from the house and then drops down into a very steep ravine, 150 to 200 feet down the ravine there's some railway tracks. So we had the dogs down in that ravine several weeks ago doing some searches and they came back with some hits on some areas that needed closer examination. So taking the logistics into account, took us a couple of weeks to get everything sorted out with the city of Toronto and what not and to clear an area for us to dig and that's what we spent the last week doing.

IR: And how meticulous was the search at Mallory Crescent? You mentioned you went back there several times, including this last time.

HI: You're dealing with items that have been buried. So you're relying on the canine units who are very good at what they do, in locating areas that you then need to further examine and and excavate. And the first time we went there, it was in the dead of winter and the first indication we got was on the planters and we took the platters and then we went back. We had a couple of warmer days and the dogs indicated some other planters and we took those and then we went back again and the dogs indicated some areas in the back yard, so we excavated a very large area of that backyard and then we went back again in the spring and we did the rest of the backyard and the ravine and that's where we ended up last week.

IR: We saw officers on their hands and knees, sifting through compost piles last week when you gave media access to the crime scene. What were they looking for?

HI: Anything they could find. Literally from something as small as a tooth to something as large as a complete torso to a full set of remains. So they're on their hands and knees, they're digging by hand. Some of the areas were quite steep and they're hanging by ropes down those areas, digging by hand into buckets and then passing the buckets down a line to a sifting station and the dirt is being sifted through to find any remains whatsoever.

IR: Can you tell us what investigators found?

HI: I can't get specific about it. All I can say is that we found remains. We found remains on day one and continued to find remains every single day they were digging there, until the last day when we did secondary searches with the dogs and visual grid search and some officers from our public order units and we were satisfied that nothing else was there to be found and that's when we closed down the scene.

IR: And what's the challenge in identifying what you have found?

HI: Well, if you're dealing with dismembered remains it's quite a job for the anthropologist and the pathologist to match up those remains to what we've already recovered. We can identify them through, sometimes through fingerprints, sometimes through dental records, sometimes through DNA. Depending on the state of the remains, we have to rely on one of those three tests to see if we can identify them. So as we saw back in the winter, it can take quite some time to get the results from that. So we'll see what we have.

IR: Do you have a timeframe?

HI: Hopefully within a week, if we can do it through either fingerprints or dental records. If we can't do it through that, DNA could take a month and a half, two months. Seven of McArthur's alleged victims remains have been identified, you mentioned that earlier, but there is the eighth victim, Majeed Kayha, whose remains have not been identified. What's the likelihood that what investigators found last week belonged to him?

HI: I really don't know yet. Is it possible they belong to him? Yes it is possible. It's possible that they belong to somebody else. That's another scenario that we have to keep an open mind to. We just don't know yet, until the pathologist can give us some answers. I don't even want to hazard a guess.

IR: Going back to the investigation, there's still lingering criticism that police took too long to identify Bruce McArthur as a suspect and there are calls for a review of the investigation itself, down the road. How do you respond to that?

HI: Like I've always said, we have to forward our investigations based on evidence and not speculation. So if at the end of the project in 2013-2014, there was no evidence of what had happened. We always knew something was going on, we just didn't know what it was. And you know investigations are a lot of work and a little bit of luck and we got both in 2017. We were able to identify him and get him into custody in January of 2018. So they're taking a look at our missing person procedure. We're always welcome and open to any improvements that we can make to that. That's an ever evolving procedure and if there's an inquiry into the actual investigation down the road, that's something that we look forward to as well.

IR: Now you've been doing this a long time, as an officer. Give us a sense of how big and unprecedented this case has been for you.

HI: It is absolutely the largest investigation I've ever dealt with in the city of Toronto.

IR: You've said Mallory Crescent is the last place you would be searching. And now that you're done, does this mark the end or at least a turning point in the investigation?

HI: No, because of the coverage and it's part of the purpose of the media coverage. We've generated more tips and there's more information coming in and that's what we need. And if there's any other properties out there that we identify, that we have to go back to, we'll go back to them. We're still looking at outstanding cold case files and we're still looking at outstanding missing persons files to see if we can identify any links whatsoever. So the investigation is still very active. It's still ongoing and like I said, if anyone has any information that they want to pass on to us, we'll still follow up on that information.

IR: OK. We'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

HI: You're welcome.

IR: Det.-Sgt. Hank Idsinga is the lead detective on the McArthur investigation. We reached him at Toronto police headquarters.

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IR: I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

Back To Top »

Why Tim Hortons will be a hard sell in China

Guest: Douglas Hunter, Richard Warnica

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So they're finally shutting this whole place down.

VOICE 2: Well the coffee's weak, the donut's stale and the riff raff they let in here. I love this place.

IR: Some classic Royal Canadian Air Farce comedy there, set in what some would say is the classic Canadian locale, a coffee and donut shop like one from that ubiquitous chain, Tim Hortons. Whether you're a Tim's double-double devotee or prefer your coffee of Joe from elsewhere, there's no denying that the chain has become part of the fabric of this country. And though it's owned today by a Brazilian investment firm, Tim Hortons still proudly plays up its Canadian heritage in its marketing. In a press release last week, the company spoke of "expanding our iconic Canadian brand to the rest of the world." And to that end, Tim Hortons is heading to China with plans to develop and open more than 1500 restaurants across the country over the next 10 years. We asked some Tim Hortons patrons, what they thought of the news.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: It's good to expand internationally as well, because people they can associate that with Canada. So it's good for Canada in general, so.

VOICE 2: I think it's good. Like I said, when you go on vacation and you know it's good that they're expanding. But that's the first thing everybody says when they come back, the first thing I'm going to do is get a Tim Hortons coffee. Everywhere you go, you go on road trips, you stop for Tims. It's just part of Canadian history, like maple syrup.

IR: Some satisfied customers there, but the Tim Hortons brand has suffered a bit of a hit lately, dropping from 4th to 50th placed in reputation rankings on the heels of bad news, including cuts to employee break times and benefits at some Ontario locations. And so we're asking, whether Canadians are content to have their country defined by Tim Hortons abroad. Douglas Hunter is the author of Double Double: How Tim Hortons became a Canadian way of life one cup at a time. He's with us from Port McNicoll, Ontario. Hello.

DOUGLAS HUNTER: Hello.

IR: So what do you think about this news that Tim Hortons is making a big expansion into China?

DH: Well they're planning a big expansion. That's let's start with that and they've planned a number of expansions over the years into Europe and they're still trying to figure out the United States. In China, the reality there is yes, it's an enormous market with a growing consumer culture. Starbucks has been there since 1999. It has about 3300 stores right now. It's got a pretty big head start, but China is a big place. There have been a few knockoffs of Tim Hortons in China and South Korea. So there is a little bit of brand recognition somewhat there, but it's you know it's a new place to play and you just, people go hey we can go there, we can see Canada when we're there. The question there is if Tim Hortons going to try to be Canada in China or how are they going to try to position themselves you know with the Chinese consumer.

IR: Well what are their chances of succeeding?

DH: I think it's a tall order. I mean the one hand, you do have a very large consumer market that everybody wants to tap, but they've also said you know Tim Hortons needs to look at India. They just started in the Philippines in 2017. The reality is for a company like Tims that is always looking for new areas of growth, it's pretty well tapped out Canada. There's really not much more real estate left to figure out. In the US i'ts been a really a daunting challenge. I think except really for border state locations in upstate New York and Michigan, it's been very hard for the company to get much headway in the States. Europe has never really been much you know, it just sort of has little you know little bits of successes here and there, but not a significant presence. So China, you're crossing into a whole new culture, a whole new opportunity, but you already have a large iconic US brand there, well ahead of you.

IR: Well you know, we mentioned earlier that the company has run into some trouble and that's obviously part of the motivation to move into China, what happened here?

DH: Well I think what happened here is you did have an ownership change to restaurant brands Burger King, you know Brazilian investors American investors and I think they dropped. What I saw when I've been studying Tim Hortons is that Tims has always been very good about getting ahead of controversies and almost over responding to them to make them go away quickly. And it's had its controversies over the years from the par baking frozen donuts thing to I mean temporary foreign workers has been an issue for them. But I think the way, the first time I saw them really stumble and it was under the new ownership, was when the minimum wage increases came in Ontario and the company corporately got into a spat, public spat with franchisees. That's extraordinarily rare in the history of Tim Hortons, to have that kind of you know public fight. And it pushed consumers to you know taking sides in a very complicated fight that was between franchisees, the franchise company and the employees themselves. And I think maybe you know, there was a bit of tarnishing there in the reputation of the company for Canadians, in general.

IR: You know, we talk about the Canadiana of Tim Hortons and that's part of the marketing, do you think that that will play well there?

DH: In China?

IR: In China.

DH: Well it's again, it's you know, Chinese consumer culture is way above my pay category, but it does ask, first off is that question of how is Tim's going to position itself in China. Cause certainly when they went into the US, they did not position themselves as a Canadian company. In fact, they don't even position themselves really as Tim Horton, as a company, as the hockey player. When I was in the Manhattan in 2011, I was very surprised to see the local franchisee, there was a company that had about 11 outlets that have been swapped over from Dunkin Donuts, and there was a sleeve on the cup and the cup sleeve on the cup had Tim Horton the hockey player, which you just never saw in Canada. What fascinated me about the sleeve was that it talked about him being a player with Buffalo, Pittsburgh and New York, the last few years of his career, it said nothing about his 22 seasons in Toronto and his four Stanley Cups. So he was, yeah, the Tim Horton's persona was there, which I hadn't seen in forever, but he was being kind of remanufactured, you know at least by the local franchisee as an American you know sports phenomenon. So what is Tims going to do in China? Is it going to try to export a Canadian identity, that's more identified than even is Canada, or is it just going to try to become another consumer player you know with I mean another player in the Chinese consumer market.

IR: You know quickly before we let you go, it's not you mentioned earlier Tim Hortons is no longer Canadian owned and so do you feel like the link between Tim Hortons in Canada is fading in any way?

DH: Well I think people, the danger I said when I was writing about them, was the moment the Canadians no longer sort of position themselves, the sense of themselves by the cup they're holding in their hand, is above and beyond whatever the quality of the product is, is the day that Tim Hortons gets into a lot of trouble in Canada. And, so that's where we're getting to a tipping point where people are going to have intense brand loyalties out of sheer habit and the fact there's so many Tims, it's almost hard to avoid going to one if you don't want to go to Tim's and you have a coffee habit. But at the moment people feel you know this isn't really who I am, I don't have to hold this cup to walk down the street to feel Canadian. I can do that other ways. Tims has lost a big marketing advantage.

IR: Okay we'll leave it there. Thank you so much.

DH: Thank you.

IR: Douglas Hunter is the author of Double Double: How Tim Hortons became a Canadian way of life one cup at a time. He was in Port McNicoll, Ontario. Now if we were creating a new coat of arms for the country today, some would suggest that a hot cup of Tims should be included on the shield. But the donut shop's status as a national icon, doesn't sit well with everyone. National Post feature writer, Richard Warnica, is with me in our Toronto studio. Hi Richard.

RICHARD WARNICA: Good morning.

IR: And what about what Douglas Hunter said, does is that leaving a bitter taste in your mouth?

RW: I guess my issue with the idea that we wrap Tim Hortons into Canadiana, is less with the idea, okay they had a very successful marketing push, it inculcated us into for years people associated with this. My problem is not that the company has done, it's when people go the other way. When politicians strive for this extremely, almost phony sense of ordinariness and normalcy and they choose this sort of nakedly consumer brand to do that. You know, I think what set this all off was this tweet by the defense minister. He's in Latvia with the defense minister and he's got this cup of coffee and it's like nothing more ordinary or happy than a cup of Tim's. And it drives me crazy that in politics we still have to put on this patina of ordinary aw-shucks normalcy and the fact that it's Tim Hortons that we do that in Canada. To me is almost like secondary to the fact that everybody has to fit into this tiny box to succeed in politics and I think it's damaging to the way we conduct politics.

IR: Well it certainly has become coined as the "Tim Hortons voter," right?

RW: For sure. And you know the Conservatives did that very successfully. You know, even like John Baird, who's you know as downtown Toronto as a human could possibly be, when he would come back from trips as Foreign Affairs Minister, would tweet out, oh you know best thing about coming back to Canada is my cup of Tim's. And it's like OK, it's so transparently phony that it drives me crazy.

IR: So given that, what do you think about the fact that they're moving to China?

RW: I think it's fascinating because I don't think much of Tim Horton's success is based around the strength of their product. It's a very generic cup of coffee-donut place and that's what a lot of people are fine with, but it has succeeded so strongly in Canada by ubiquity and branding. So I am curious and fascinated to know what they're going to sell to the Chinese consumer because in Canada they don't sell rah-rah Canada is great. They sell this as a part of who you are already. I don't know how you do that in a new market.

IR: OK. I want to play you a clip because there are mega fans out there. There's a clip from Ian Hardy. He's the publisher of insidetimmies.com and the self-proclaimed "biggest Tim Hortons fan in Canada." He gets his Tim's fix three times a day.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I order ahead of time through the mobile app, which is a great time saver. Because when I get there my drink is ready and they go "Good morning, Ian. Here are your drinks. So I walk out with it in 15-20 seconds. So I find it a good experience.

IR: So Richard he's saying he loves the warmth that goes with his Tim's orders. That's what Canadians like about it. Shouldn't we bring that to the world, what's wrong with that?

RW: I think what he really likes is a sense of routine. And I think that can exist anywhere, whether it's Tim Hortons or whether it's you know your Starbucks or you know Rooster, where I got my coffee this morning. And that is a really difficult consumer product to export, especially into a new culture because how will you build that amount of loyalty and that amount of routine in a completely new place. I don't know. I'm sure they have a plan, but I you know as Douglas said, I was a retail reporter when they went into the United States and I saw the oh huge plans to get into the United States and you know, they didn't succeed.

IR: You know, a lot of people talk about Tim Hortons being like a gathering spot for communities and starting points for recent immigrants to Canada. Do you think that part of its role, I mean maybe you can talk a bit about that because it certainly has become iconic in that way as well.

RW: Sure and I think that speaks to the ubiquity. I'm from out west and you know I will 100 per cent cop to if I'm covering in a murder in Grand Cache or something like that I'm going to Tim Hortons cause I know I'm going to get a cup of coffee and a sandwich and it's fine and usually there's people sitting around who you can speak to. The question of it being like a place for new immigrants is always a little funny to me, in the sense of, we have a lot of immigrants from places with really good coffee culture. And I always imagine like people getting off the plane from like Turkey or something like that and being like ah Canada, time to test your wares and getting this like superstrong, yet still watery at the same time and just been like, what have I done to my life? Is this really the best of this country?

IR: Quickly before we let you go, if you don't think Tim Hortons should be identifying us as Canadians, what should?

RW: Well, I actually tend to think that one of the greatest things about Canada and one of the reasons that we succeed in ways that other countries don't is that we don't have a single core identifying thing and that when we struggle to fill that void is when we get in trouble. Because I think we're able to absorb new people and new cultures and build ourselves together because we haven't you know set one historical fight or set one historical marker and said this is Canada, everyone who is not this, is something else.

IR: Thank you so much.

RW: Thank you.

IR: Richard Warnica is a feature writer at The National Post. He joined me in our Toronto studio. Coming up in our next half hour, from donuts to Tiramisu. We're heading to a place where the light, refreshing Italian dessert is taken very seriously. The first ever Tiramisu World Championship. I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music]

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Missing soccer? Try this — the Tiramisu World Cup

Guest: Megan Williams

SOUNDCLIP

Italian speech followed by applause.

IR: And with that announcement, the first ever Tiramisu World Cup was underway. On a rainy weekend last November, contestants traveled from near and far to the northern Italian city of Treviso, for the culinary showdown. All vying to have their tiramisu crowned the winner. Made with espresso and cocoa, hence the name, which translates as "pick me up," Tiramisu is a simple, but delicious dessert and for Italians, paying tribute to that tradition is an important part of their national identity. Rome-based journalist Megan Williams knows a thing or two about Italians and food. She's been living in Italy for almost two decades and got the invitation of a lifetime for foodies, to be a judge at the first ever Tiramisu World Championship. Last December, Megan joined Anna Maria Tremonti in our Toronto studio, to tell us about the sweat and the sweet of the Tiramisu showdown.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: What a tough gig. You poor thing.

[Laughter]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It was awful, it was dangerous too I had to dodge sugar ballots and leap away from carb bombs [laughter] but I made it through a weekend of tasting tiramisu and it was exciting. I mean listen to this crowd.

SOUNDCLIP

Loud chatter

AMT: That is a buzz of activity where are we?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So were in Treviso. It's a lovely little town in northern Italy picture medieval walls, little canals, cobblestone streets. It's charming but it is overlooked, essentially because it's a stone's throw from Venice and that's where all the tourist go. So you can imagine having 700 contestants pouring from all over Italy for the event was a huge deal for Treviso. Now the crowd we're hearing is in a hotel on the outskirts of town where one of the four groups semi-finalists are gathering. The contestants are crammed into the lobby holding bowls and moulds and special ingredients waiting for their turn at the table.

AMT: Only in Italy, eh? Why a tiramisu competition?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well honestly I think it was inevitable for a couple of reasons. One is there is no excuse too small to celebrate food in Italy as you know being Italian yourself.

AMT: And these are my people, yes.

[Laughter]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: This is actually is like the fourth or fifth food competition that as a journalist I've been asked to judge. I've done pasta. I've done Gelatto. I've done cous-cous I've done wine.

AMT: I had no idea that was such a big gig, keep going.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It's fantastic.

AMT: I thought you were busy doing you know hard news stories and you're judging all this great food which is better news stories.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yes it's the compensation for all the other rough work I do. The other reason for the competition is that tiramisu really is the most popular Italian dessert in the world. According to experts, and there are experts on tiramisu, it is the third most popular Italian dish. But like numbers 1 and 2 - which as you can guess is?

AMT: Pizza.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: And?

AMT: Spaghetti.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: That's right - Was invented much more recently in the 1970s.

AMT: I did not realise that. What is the connection to Treviso?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well supposedly that's where the dessert originated but like a lot of inventions, there's some debate about who got there first. But let's hear all about its origins from the person who the most informed in the world about tiramisu. He's called Gigi Padovani and he's written a whole slew of Italian food history books with his wife Clara Vada, including one of the more recent ones called Tiramisu: History, Curiosities and Interpretations of the most beloved Italian Dessert. Here's Gigi on where tiramisu was first made.

SOUNDCLIP

GIGI PADOVANI: We started here in Treviso because people know that the first recipe was in 1970s pastry chef from restaurant[unintelligible] a year. But we discovered that there are another dessert called tiramisu in Friuli Venezia Giulia, another land near Veneto in the east of Italy. And we have also found the recipe we're using now and the Bill of 1959 with tiramisu. So this 'la prova' [speaks in Italian].

MEGAN WILLIAMS: The proof.

GIGI PADOVANI: The proof that tiramisu was born in Tolmezzo, near Friuli Venezia Giullia, near Austria.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So Anna Maria, Treviso insists that they are the true originators of the version of tiramisu that's made its way around the world and we'll talk shortly about what that version is. But there is that restaurant bill from 1959, from a town in another nearby region, a couple of hours away, but we really don't know if it was the same tiramisu or a slightly different recipe. And we probably never will now because we just have the bill. We don't have the recipe from 1959. So it's up for debate.

AMT: At least they put the origins of tiramisu in the northeast corner of Italy. Now what makes a classic tiramisu?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Okay so what's known as the original recipe consists of mascarpone cheese. You have coffee you have lady Finger Cookies which Italians call 'savoiardi', sugar, eggs and of course the cocoa that is sprinkled on top. Now later there came the addition of Marsala wine which was from Sicily. It's kind of interesting the role that edition played in making tiramisu a fully elegant dessert. Here's Gigi Padovani again.

SOUNDCLIP

GIGI PADOVANI: Spaghetti brought Italy together from the south to the north, but tiramisu form the north to the south. Lady fingers from Piedmont. Coffee arrived in Italy from Venice. Mascarpone cheese in Lombardia near Milan. And Marsala is in Sicily and so you have all Italian cuisine together and this is our proud heritage together.

AMT: And this is obviously adored by Italian families and tourists alike.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It is, but as with pretty much every popular food item there is the documented history and then there is the myth. And with pasta for instance the myth is that Marco Polo brought it from China. Not true. With tiramisu, there is also a myth which some locals I spoke to insisted was true and it actually involves a brothel. Here's contest organiser Francesco Redi explaining to me the myths as we stood standing in front of the place where the brothel once stood in Treviso.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANSESCO REDI: They say it was used in a brothel, the [unintelligible] but you know it was used before the customer you know for giving more energy when there are in being an evening in the brothel. It Was something like a marketing message 'Okay come here because we also give you the tiramisu and you can extend your performance okay. By eating the tiramisu can also have more energy and last longer'.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Like Viagra.

FRANSESCO REDI: It may be an ancient Viagra.

AMT: [Laughs] An ancient Viagra. That is the best myth yet I've heard for the origin of any food, okay.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It's not the only presence Viagran myths in Italy. But anyway.

AMT: OK so we have to focus now. Let's get back to the competition. What are the judges looking for? And I'm guessing they weren't looking for Viagra in the tiramisu.

[Laughter]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: We were given a sheet of paper with five criteria: Technical execution i.e. you are sloppy or not. Aesthetic presentation that was like the shape and sprinklings and whatever. Taste intensity. Dish equilibrium. Flavour and harmony which I did not really understand how that was different from dish equilibrium but equilibrium seemed to be a word that judges said a lot, including Francesco Redi.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANSESCO REDI: The champion of the competition must create a tiramisu with a great equilibrium. Equilibrium from a physical point of view; the finger is good the don't have to feel. Equilibrium are in the teens. If you taste too much cork or too much coffee or too much creamer it is not good. In my opinion, the traditional recipe is the best because it gives you a great equilibrium and the taste is really incredible.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So we heard 'equilibrium' is really key. [Laughter] Now you heard him mention the classic version. At this competition they had two categories. One was the classic which is the original recipe that I just mentioned and the other was creative, and now it was a category that allowed people to do you know a sort of personal dash of creativity that Italians are famed for. And among those who did there was someone who happens to be Canadian. Her name is Alexandra Mason and shes from Hamilton, Ontario but now lives in Italy not far from Treviso.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEXANDRA MASON: So in the ball is the cream that I used and I put a little something special in int, just to be creative and change it up a bit. Cardamom. I thought it would go well because of the facts

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Are you being judged.

ALEXANDRA MASON: I am. Simple and good. That was so far the one comment I had.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Simple but good goes far in Italy.

ALEXANDRA MASON: Exactly you know I was actually hesitating even changing things at all because in Italy people tend to be very fixed on tradition in terms of recipes. So they'll get really offended almost if you do a carbonara, adding cream for example to a carbonara is absolutely ludicrous. But at the end of the day this is for fun and I'm trying something different, so.

AMT: Cardamom tiramisu for fun. That sounds...I'm going to try that. That one's unique. Nice to see Canada represented here.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh it was great. Alex's was actually really good.

AMT: So tell us about some of the other creative takes.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: There was a lot of experimentation. I tasted tiramisus with pistachios, Amaretto cookie's persimmons. One guy developed and After Eight theme which felt like a bit of a blast from the 70s and it was way too sweet. That was not one of my favourites. I think the most out there addition though was caramelised onions which were a little slimy but they actually weren't bad. They were sweet. But you know honestly I think tiramisu works 'as is'. So, I appreciated the experimentation but I think really less is more.

AMT: Other that you Megan who had the enviable task of judging all this tiramisu.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well there were a bunch of us. I mean some people were food writers, chefs, there were fellow journalists from different parts of the world, some of the judges were just people who really liked tiramisu and they signed up really and expressed a lot of enthusiasm and got to be a judge. And here's one of those people. Her name is Valentina Daroit.

SOUNDCLIP

VALENTINA DAROIT: I am a buongustaio.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Which means?

VALENTINA DAROIT: I like it. [Laughter] That's my qualification that. I don't like to read truly so normally but tiramisu is one of the.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Exceptions.

VALENTINA DAROIT: Yeah yeah yeah. I think that because it's not so sweet. It doesn't have to be so sweet. And tiramisu it is different from the other sweet things.

AMT: She's a 'buongustaio'. I like that word.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh! Good pronunciation, Anna Maria.

AMT: You say there were journalists from different parts of the world. What did they think of all of this?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well that was actually really interesting. There was a Chinese journalist who I got to know named Lee J. And I was curious what she thought of all the culinary craziness that we were part of. And kind of to my amazement, she said that tiramisu is really big in China, I think especially among young urban Chinese. The unbelievable thing is they've actually constructed their own tiramisu myth. So I grabbed Lee Jay outside in the rain just to get away from all the noise and she told me the myth.

SOUNDCLIP

LEE J: Story is like this. Long long ago, like a young couple and husband was set to be a soldier in a war. And before he leave the wife use all the materials they have at home. Just simple materials like cheese, eggs, sugar, coffee, things like this very simple very dearly and they make dessert like this. So Italian it is said tiramisu. In Chinese they translate it like 'take me with you.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So it's a link to a love story.

LEE J: Yes it is. Now I have to say now in big cities in China it's becoming more and more ordinary for daily dessert.

AMT: They have out-romanticised the Italians on the origins of tiramisu that's fantastic.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I know it was wild.

AMT: Fascinating so it's everywhere. Did you talk to any contestant in the classic category?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah there was. There was one woman who's a business consultant by day and a tiramisu fanatic in her spare time named Elisa Benetti. And I caught up with her just after contestants were told to put down their spatulas.

SOUNDCLIP

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So how did it go?

ELISA BENETTI: Yes, I think fine. It is a bit warm here. So that's why the cream it's a bit going around the plate, but.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh you have the tiramisu in the shape of a trophy.

ELISA BENETTI: Exactly. Exactly.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Wishful thinking?

ELISA BENETTI: Yes yes.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: And how many tiramisu do you make a year do you think?

ELISA BENETTI: Two a month so 24.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Two a month and you're slim.

ELISA BENETTI: Yes, because I'm not eating it. I have two brothers younger than me they are eating everything.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So you make them for your brothers.

ELISA BENETTI: Yes. I can tell you something about when I was in London I met some Korean friends who started to say "oh you know Elisa, we should make a business plan for your tiramisu to open n some tiramisu-eria in Korea, because it is so good."

MEGAN WILLIAMS: All right. Good Luck.

AMT: I'm still stuck on the tiramisu-eria. We need one of those in Canada. We need one of those down the street.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I am sure there's going to be one before we know it.

AMT: I love this idea, and her lucky brothers you know 'make me a tiramisu please, agian.'

[Laughter]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I mean I love my brothers. But talk about going the extra mile. But it really speaks to the absolute central role that food plays in bringing people, families together in Italy. You know the way Italians take such pleasure in sharing recipe which I know that happens everywhere. But what I find different say from Canada - between Canada and Italy is the way people in Italy take such pleasure in talking about food as they're eating the food. So you know it's before, during and afterwards. And just like tiramisu, these aren't usually complicated dishes. I mean you grew up in an Italian household so you know. It's simple ingredients. It's Fresh ingredients. It's Simple presentation and those are all things that came out at the tiramisu competition.

AMT: We've heard that your main qualification is that you like the stuff. How was it to actually judge so many different versions?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It wasn't easy because yes as you say was not really qualified. So it was actually helpful for me to check in with the other judges before I began judging and to get a sense of what they were looking for. So that I could you know try and discern those same qualities. Here I am chatting with Valentina and a chef who was also a judge name Ricardo.

SOUNDCLIP

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So how how's the judging going?

VALENTINA: Two women over there where really really really good making it.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: What made them especially good?

VALENTINA: The balance of the ingredients.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Can I see your point. Okay so what are you going to give it for technical?

VALENTINA: A five because five for technical execution. It is from 1 to 10. Because the table is not clean.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Her table is not clean. Hr table cloth is smirched.

RICARDO: 56.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I tried that it was a really good. Light. Good balance. Tell me why you think 56 is the best.

RICARDO: Because of the presentation and all the taste inside the mouth. The sapidity was fantastic.

[Laughter]

AMT: The 'sapidity' was fantastic.is he saying that it was flavourful? What is he saying there?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well sort of. Sapidity also means salty in Italian but that could be a mis-translation but he liked it.

AMT: I like the fact that table cloth is smirched and that is a problem. It's so interesting though; the harmony, the balance... It is like I am with. I am floating off into tiramisu heaven.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I know. I just kept hearing those words. It's that certain restraint that you always find in Italian cuisine. It’s funny because you know Italians are renowned for being exuberant and they are, but they are also in the kitchen restraint. They are a people of moderation. They know how to do simplicity and restraint really well.

AMT: We want to know how did our contestants do.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Chatter and applause]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Okay that's the winners of the creative category being announced and Alexandra from Canada she was a runner up, which she was pretty happy with. So they boiled it down - like all of these 700 contestants they boiled down to four people for the finals and two who were from the classic category and two who were from the creative category. Can you guess which version won?

AMT: Just let me think. Okay it's got to be the classic.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah exactly.

AMT: Sorry onions. No onions.

[Laughter]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Exactly. It was completely unsurprising to me that the classic version won. And it was a really lovely guy named Andrea Cicollello. He works in a glasses frame factory in a northern Italian town called Feltre. I had a brief chat with him as he got his prize with tears in his eyes. It was very moving.

SOUNDCLIP

[Conversation in Italian]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: He was just so thrilled to have won then. He says he made it to me every day over the past month or so, perfecting the density of cream and the aesthetic presentation.

AMT: Oh that is dedication.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yes. He really was dedicated. So there is just one other person that I think we should hear from and that is the man who put Treviso on their tiramisu map. He is the one who claims to have invented or I shouldn't say invented. He claims to have come up with the version that we eat all around the world today.

AMT: So he's still around. He's still alive?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: He is close to 80 and retired now from the restaurant business but he and his wife owned Alle Beccheria in Treviso back in the 1970s when he says he first made the desert. So here's Roberto Linguanotto.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian speech]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So he's careful to say that tiramisu was not invented. He said that these are things that come out of pastry kitchen, experiments of combining different ingredients that sometimes work and sometimes don't. But he said it was a success and it's gotten more and more popular over the years.

AMT: Was it an overnight success?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well Mr. Linguanotto says it took about a year for it to catch on. At first the restaurant made a couple of big ones a day. He said like after the first year and then it sort of jumped to seven and people would start picking up the dessert to take home. Of course he is devoted to the original recipe and shudders at the version he's heard with pineapples for instance.

[Laughter]

AMT: Wow I bet they got a problem with pineapple on the pizza, too.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yes. Again that's what I found so interesting about this dessert and Italian cuisine in general is you know it's that delicate balance between tradition and creativity, where you want to take a little risk. You want to have space for that personal experimentation but you never want to slide towards what Italians consider absurd.

AMT: We of course have our own perfectionist when it comes to Italian cooking and it's not me.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Her she is. Here she is.

AMT: It is Lara O'Brien the producer here at The Current. One of our producers.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh! Wow.

AMT: And Laura has made us a tiramisu.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Points for aesthetic presentation, Lara.

AMT: No besmirching the tablecloth, Lara.

LARA O'BRIEN: You should see the work station at home.

AMT: Cause it has onions?

[Laughter]

LARA O'BRIEN: No onions, and unfortunately I had no Marsala. So I had to use Brandy.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh well so creative category.

LARA O'BRIEN: Thank you. Somewhere a freshman is happy. I am sure.

AMT: I'm willing to forgive that.

LARA O'BRIEN: And if you like my lady fingers.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Oh my god that looks delicious. I am sorry you lost points.

LARA O'BRIEN: Oh I have besmirched it.

AMT: She's besmirched the microphone area.

[Laughter]

LARA O'BRIEN: Bon appetito.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Flavor and harmony good. I think I'd give it 9.

AMT: Okay. I'm learning how to judge because maybe I could be a judge next year. Just saying. Just saying.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Dish equilibrium.

AMT: What is that?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I think it is the way the savoiardi, the lady fingers, float.

AMT: Oh okay well they seem to be doing well. She's in our headphones now and she's saying they're over soaked. No I think they're actually...

MEGAN WILLIAMS: No they are good.

AMT: I am letting you do all the talking because I'm doing all the eating.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I love the brandy.

AMT: Okay so now we have another business partner for our tiramisu-eria that we are planning to open and advertise on The Current. Meghan Williams we are almost out of time so we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for sharing your judging abilities with us.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: My complete and utter pleasure.

AMT: And let's split the rest of this house as we move on to something new. Thank you.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Thank you.

IR: That was Anna Maria Tremonti speaking with Rome-based journalist, Megan Williams. Megan had the challenging assignment of judging the first ever Tiramisu World Championship in Italy. We first aired that story last December. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Children's author Wendy McLeod MacKnight is on the show to talk about "The Frame-Up," her new book for kids that's set in Fredericton's Beaverbrook Gallery. And remember, you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It lets you browse through past episodes of our show and start listening in just a few seconds. You can search for stories you missed or want to hear again or listen live to your local CBC station, right from your smartphone or tablet. Hear the day's top stories, even make your own playlist of your favorite stuff to listen to later. It's free from the App Store or Google Play. After hearing about all that Tiramisu, let's end things off today with some classic Italian music. This song is Che Bella Cosa Sei, which translates roughly as "how beautiful you are." I'm Ioanna Roumeliotis. Thanks for listening to The Current.

[Song: Che Bella Cosa Sei]

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July 16, 2018 episode transcript

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