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The AIH Transcript for July 6, 2018

Hosts: Robyn Bresnahan and Chris Howden

Prologue

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello, I'm Robin Bresnahan, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight…

RB: Outside chance. The news that a boys soccer team trapped in a cave in Thailand had been found alive was amazing. But the news since has been worrying, and with water levels rising and oxygen levels dropping and the pressure to rescue them is mounting.

CH: A back and forth that leaves them nowhere. As municipal, provincial and federal politicians bicker about who's responsible for the influx of asylum seekers, a refugee worker worries about the asylum seekers themselves.

RB: They went in to prey but didn't have a prayer. Poachers entered a South African game reserve to kill endangered, rhinos undetected by humans, but didn't survive an encounter with the lions who did detect them.

CH: Anti-self-destruct sequence. Koalas are under threat from diminishing habitat and a terrible epidemic of disease. But scientists believe that sequencing their genome could help save the vulnerable marsupials.

RB: Even the musical isn't unsinkable. A couple of British World Cup fans kept a crowd posted on how their team was doing in their game this week. Only problem was they were in the front row during a performance of Titanic the musical.

CH: And…The kicker is the kickers. Our guests are a British couple who are overjoyed about having planned a wedding for early July before they realised it will conflict with England's World Cup game against Sweden. As It Happens: The Friday Edition. Radio that guesses the rule when a goal is scored will be shriek now or forever hold your piece.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Thai Cave Rescue, Lion Kills Poachers, Football Wedding

Thai Cave Rescue

Guest: Panu Wongcha-um

CH: 12 boys on their soccer coach remain trapped in a cave in northern Thailand. And with oxygen levels in the cave falling and a forecast of heavy rainfall for Sunday, there's an increasing urgency in the planning to get them out of there. Yesterday, a former Thai Navy SEAL who was assisting with the rescue died in the cave after running out of air under water. Panu Wongcha-um is a senior correspondent for Reuters based in Thailand. We reached him in Mae Sai.

RB: Panu, what is the latest update on the boy's condition? How are they doing?

PANU WONGCHA-UM: We've been told by the Thai authorities that they are doing well, that the boy's health is OK. Earlier there were some concerns over the health of three of the boys out of the 12 but in the latest press conference the head of the command centre said that the boy's health are fine.

RB: But we're also hearing that oxygen levels in the cave have fallen. What does that mean potentially for the boys and their coach inside?

PW: We’ve been told that the oxygen level is dropping inside the cave. The area where the boys are located is actually still OK. They do have a clean air to breathe. The initial concern at the moment in terms of oxygen is the area where the rescue is operating in front of the cave going into it. So what they’re trying to do is try to pump more oxygen through the whole thing to allow both the boys and the rescuers to have a better air to breathe.

RB: You say it is dry there now but there is expected to be heavy rains this weekend. How do you think that will affect the rescue efforts?

PW: Well, this rain and the prospect of it has really sort of created a new sense of urgency in this rescue operation. I mean, earlier after they were found alive and well, there was a lot of people saying that maybe they can stay there for a while longer, the condition is as much safer. But now with the prospect of rain coming and the prospect of water level rising again because of the rain there's a sense of urgency you got maybe perhaps the boys need to be moved out and need to be extracted sooner rather than later. Now there's been some problems of course the recent death of a former Navy SEAL, Thai Navy SEAL rescuer on Friday morning clearly has shown that the area that they're operating is still very dangerous for an experienced diver, so to extract the boys by diving through a lot of cave is still a very dangerous prospect.

RB: What are the chances that they might try to get out before all the heavy rains begin?

PW: At the moment it is very difficult to say. I mean, the Thai authority hasn't put a real time stamp on this operation. The latest is that they are holding drills, holding practice runs of these rescue operations. The main, of course, route is as through the entrance of the cave through these flooded sections of the cave. They want the boys to dive with the Naval divers to come out of the area, but at the same time they're also searching on top of a mountain find alternative route, an alternative exit perhaps that doesn't require such an arduous diving in areas where the narrow pathways that experienced divers even struggled to get through.

RB: Is it true that they are teaching the boys to dive? I mean, what have you learned about those lessons?

PW: It's not like teaching them how to how to dive in the sense of getting a license certified scuba diving. It's more like basic diving, basic swimming basically, where they will be guided by at least two of the Naval divers, or even three in some cases, that's what we were told. So it's not a rigorous cost of diving, it's more of a course where they need to learn how to stay afloat, they need to follow or be guided by the divers, and this is what we've been told by the Thai authorities. Nevertheless we've heard that even that operation is quite challenging because in some sections of the cave, being a very complex and very narrow pathways, there are some sections that the boys get through by themselves even with the Navy divers around them.

RB: I wonder Panu, what impact did the death of that former Navy SEAL what impact did it have on the morale of the volunteers there?

PW: Well, I mean, you can see that it has really shook them. I mean, since the boys were discovered alive I think there was a sense of confidence and optimism around the camp. But this death has sort of brought the reality home to a lot of people a lot of the rescuers all the media camping out here that you know this path, this cave is still very dangerous and that we still have many challenges left before bringing these boys home. So yeah, I mean, it really has affected the morale. But the divers’ commanders said they will push through and throughout the day we've seen that the Naval divers, the international divers they're still working very hard, working right now trying to resupply,y trying to make the route safer trying to pump more air into the cave. And at the same time outside the camp we're also seeing the army and other volunteers and rescue workers working very hard to find an alternative pathway try to drain more water. So overall, yes, it may have shook them in terms of realizing that you know this is still a very challenging task, but at the same time they do trying very hard to sort of accomplish this task.

RB: And of course, there's the families as well, have the boys had any contact with them?

PW: They have been trying for the last few days to attach a phone line inside the cave to the outside world. But this has proven more difficult, more challenging than previously. At the moment they still have no contact, direct contact with their parents.

RB: And just finally Panu, amongst all the anxiety and this race against the rain, there's a rather sweet detail but has emerged. Apparently the boys have been asking for the scores of the World Cup and now the president of FIFA has said if they successfully make it out on time. They are going to be invited to be guests at the World Cup final in Moscow on July 15th. Wouldn't that be something?

PW: Yeah, that certainly would be something. I mean, the boys are known to be a keen football fans and football players. So yeah, it would be something. But, of course, the timeframe hasn't been set yet so we have to see of course whether they make it out before the World Cup final.

RB: Great to talk to you, Panu. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

PW: Thank you.

RB: Bye, bye.

PW: Bye.

CH: Panu Wongcha-um is a senior correspondent for Reuters. We reached him by the Tham Luang caves in Mae Sai, Thailand.

[Music: Marching Band]

Humboldt Charges

CH: It's been two months since the Humboldt Broncos team bus collided with a truck. 16 people on the bus were killed, the driver of the truck survived. And today the RCMP announced he'd been arrested and charged. Here's Curtis Zablocki, assistant commissioner of the RCMP, speaking at a press conference in Regina today.

SOUNDCLIP

CURTIS ZABLOCKI: I know it's been difficult for many to await the outcome of this police investigation. The time it took to do this work, this important work, was necessary. Today at approximately 10:00 a.m. our major crime investigators arrested the driver of the semi-trailer unit Jaskirat Sidhu, a 29-year-old male from Calgary, Alberta. Mr. Sidhu was arrested without incident at his Calgary residence and currently faces the following charges: 16 counts of dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death, 13 counts of dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing bodily injury. Mr. Sidhu has been remanded into RCMP custody and will make his first appearance in Saskatchewan provincial court next week.

CH: RCMP Assistant Commissioner Curtis Zablocki speaking at a press conference today. Police also detailed the breadth of the investigation. An additional 100 investigators joined the core team of 25. They conducted more than 60 interviews, took more than 6,000 photographs and used 3D technology to capture evidence with the use of drones. The maximum sentence for dangerous driving causing death is 14 years, and for dangerous driving causing injury, ten years.

[Music: Ambient Guitar Plucks]

Lion Kills Poachers

Guest: Nick Fox

CH: They went into the wildlife reserve as predators — they became prey. South African officials say a group of suspected poachers have been mauled to death by lions. It's believed the human hunters were out to kill endangered rhinos. Nick Fox is the owner of the Sibuya Game Reserve. We reached him in Kenton-on-Sea, South Africa.

RB: Mr. Fox, how did you first discover the remains of these poachers?

NICK FOX: We suspect the poachers came into the reserve sometime Sunday night, early Monday morning. One of our patrols was coming back at about half past four in the morning when one of the canine patrols, it was a dog unit, one of the dogs warned the handler that there was something amiss, she heard a noise at the same time he heard the lions, so he thought that was what had set her off and he didn't think much of it because the lions are normally very active at night. As it turned out in retrospect it was probably something else because the next day Tuesday evening at about 4:30 p.m. one of our game vehicles with a ranger was looking for the lions, found the lions and came across the remains where the lines were lying.

RB: Without getting too terribly graphic, can you just describe what was found?

NF: To be honest very little. They found a skull right next to where the lions were. And next to the skull they found a pair of fence cutters, side cutters, a backpack with food in and one shoe and that was pretty much all that they found right at that scene.

RB: But then importantly you also found an axe.

NF: Well, even before that what happened, is that Ranger on the game drive called anti-poaching unit who immediately called me and I went through with them and we searched the area. Having seen the human remains and the lines right it was exceedingly dangerous to get out the vehicle, so nobody was allowed to leave the vehicle. But driving we managed to find a rifle, a high caliber rifle with a silencer lying under one of the bushes very close to the scene. And that was when we immediately started suspecting poachers, but it wasn't at first incidents where we found the axe. In fact, what happened is by the time I managed to get the police there, it was getting dark. So I came back at about 8:00 o'clock in the morning and I had in the meanwhile — we managed to dart all the whole pride of lions. When I said dart them, we anesthetized them, we got them down so that the area was safe and then the police and forensic unit could go in and that's when they found the axe.

RB: And the axe is important because why?

NF: In finding the axe it's a sure sign of rhino poachers. Rhino poachers generally have a high powered rifle with a silencer. They have food for a couple of days. And the third thing was the axe and the axe is used to cut the horns off.

RB: So after you had all this information and you're starting to piece things together what do you reckon happened?

NF: What we think happened is that came into the reserve, and it's possible that they were trying to crawl through the bush into an open area or something, and maybe they crawled into an area where the lawns were under the bush.

RB: How big of a problem is poaching on your research?

NF: It's a massive problem. Poaching in South Africa has become endemic. Rhino horn, you may or may not have heard, has become so valuable that per gram it's more valuable than gold. The biggest number of rhino in the world was in Kruger Park, which is big national game reserve up on the Mozambique border. But since they have had such heavy losses up there they've gotten the police and army to help with the patrolling and it's put pressure on the run up poachers to leave that area and try and seek private game reserves such as ourselves, which they consider softer targets.

RB: You said rhino — sorry to interrupt I just wanted you to explain to us — you said rhino horn was more valuable than gold. How come it's so valuable?

NF: Well, it's used traditionally in the in the east, it was used traditionally as a medicine. But it's become very, very sought after now as a status symbol because there's no legal trade in rhino horn. The only trade is illicit trade and the price has gone through the roof. You know, give you some idea of numbers, a rhino horn can be worth up to a million U.S. dollars by the time it's reached the market, so extremely valuable. We as a reserve, fortunately we managed to check all our rhino subsequently and they are all safe. But this is not the first time we've had poachers here. We lost three rhinos in March of 2016. It's been an ongoing problem for years now.

RB: And you said that 2016 incident that was extremely traumatic for you. Can you explain why?

NF: Yeah, particularly the big bull, he was a stunning 25-year-old bull that I had bought as an orphan, in fact, when we first started the game reserve in 2003. He was orphaned, he was very young and he still had to be fed at that stage because he hadn't grown up in the wild, he'd been orphaned himself. So I spent a lot of time myself feeding him. And he actually knew my voice, he would come if he heard my voice. So for me to lose particularly him was terribly traumatic.

RB: So Mr. Fox, knowing that there's a very good possibility that these people were there to poach rhinos, how does their death make you feel?

NF: You know, I know there's been a lot of social media talk about karma and all sorts of things, but I just don't want to go there. I mean, from my point of view I'm extremely thankful that our rhinos are safe, my anti-poaching unit is safe — they've done a great job in trying to protect animals and that for me is the greatest sense of relief.

RB: Because when you look at your Facebook page you have comments like “please thank your lions for taking down the poachers. Job well done. They got what they deserved.” Somebody else said “I have nothing but respect for the lions taking care of their own. I'm glad this happened and I hope that other wannabe poachers take notice.”

NF: I’ve seen that, I have seen that. As I say, from my point of view, I just can’t go there. I have to concentrate on the positives, which is that, as I say, our rhinos are safe and we are exceedingly thankful for that.

RB: Mr. Fox, it was really good to talk to you, thank you very much for your time.

NF: Thank you.

RB: Bye, bye.

NF: Bye.

CH: That was Nick Fox, owner of the Sibuya Game Reserve. We reached him in Kenton-on-Sea, South Africa. And you can read more about that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Whimsical Guitar]

Football Wedding

Guest: Hayley Cullum and James Adams

CH: For the first time in over a decade Team England have advanced through the round of 16 in the World Cup and will be playing in the quarterfinals against Sweden tomorrow afternoon. Naturally, fans throughout the U.K. and around the world are ecstatic and happy to set aside any other plans they may have had to watch the big match — except for one subset of the population who are a little more conflicted. That would be all the people preparing to get married in the U.K. tomorrow afternoon while the quarterfinal is on. One of those happy but conflicted couples Hayley Cullum and James Adams we reached them in Norwich, England.

RB: Hayley and James, first of all, congratulations on your wedding tomorrow.

HAYLEY CULLUM: Thank you.

JAMES ADAMS: Thank you.

RB: Tell us about the moment when you realized that your wedding day was going to be in conflict with this next big match?

JA: We're watching that Belgium guy. I was hoping we'd win so that it wouldn't fall on the day, but we didn’t, so we did.

RB: And how did you broach the subject with Hayley?

HC: I actually brought it up, he didn’t actually dare. He didn't dare say anything but I actually brought it up, and I thought let’s just do it, we’ll just have it at the wedding and then everyone's happy.

RB: But when you realized that there was going to be this kind of scheduling conflict, were you filled with dread, Hayley?

HC: Yeah, a little bit but then we've managed to sort it out.

RB: Who did you start hearing from when people started realizing — some of your wedding guests — that that your wedding would be at the same time as this big match?

HC: Oh, all the men, all the men started moaning and worrying and panicking that they're going to miss the big match.

RB: What do you mean moaning?

JA: Sean said he was going to go up to his room and watch it.

HC: Yeah some of them were saying they were just gonna leave and go to the hotel room and watch it like they cannot miss it, like it’s seriously important for them.

RB: Man, with friends like those who needs enemies? James, how did you react to your friends, were you like ‘Come on guys, this is my wedding day,’ or did you have a certain kind of understanding for them?

JA: A little bit yeah, I didn’t really say a lot to be honest with you.

HC: Yeah, you understood.

RB: You understood. What was it that you understood? I mean, what could be more special than your very own wedding day, James?

HC: England winning.

RB: Are you a fan at all, Haylee?

HC: I don’t mind watching it, I’m hit or miss. But it is an England game, so it is quite important.

RB: On your big day where's the football match going to actually land during your wedding ceremonies?

HC: Oh, so luckily we're going to have a ceremony at 2:00, so hopefully it will finish just in time for the football to come on and then the big screen will go up and then that's what everyone's going to be going. We should be having out photos then so it’s going to be hit and miss on who I can get for a photo.

RB: Okay, so what time is the game on then local time?

HC: 3:00 o'clock, 3:00 p.m.

RB: You're going to have to speed through those vows. Have you cut anything out or anything?

HC: We might have to and I'm not gonna have to be late now either, so.

RB: Well as long as you don't cut it ‘I will’ part, that might be a bit important.

HC: Yeah, that’s the main bit.

RB: So now you mention that you're gonna have a big screen. James, tell us about this were you going to put it at your wedding?

JA: I don’t know, to be honest with you. Hayley sorted it all out.

HC: I sorted it all out. So it’s actually going to be where our ceremony is, we have another little room as well where we were going to have welcome drinks for everyone, you know, just sit and chat and have drinks and celebrate the ceremony. So basically the big screen’s going to be put in there so everyone can have their drinks and watch football at the same time.

RB: James how do you feel about all of this? I mean, is it kind of hijacking your big day do you feel like?

JA: It’s all worked out well really.

RB: But you must be a bit nervous, it sounds like some of your friends are really like pretty hardcore footy fans. If England loses your guests are going to be rather glum.

HC: Yes they will. His mates will cry, they will actually cry. And then they’ll to get over it.

RB: It's interesting because, of course, you're not the only couple getting married that day. There are other couples, and the Church of England has actually issued a statement strongly encouraging wedding guests to be fully onside with the happy couple rather than worrying too much about the game. Hayley, are you worried about being upstaged by Harry Kane and the lads from the England team?

HC: No, no they can’t upstage me, no, no they can’t.

RB: Your dress is just — everybody's going to be focused on you are they?

HC: They’ll be too nice, and if I have to run in front of the screen I'll have to do it.

RB: James, which part of Saturday are you most excited or nervous for, the wedding or the game?

JA: The wedding, yeah, not the game. We’ll win.

RB: OK. Well, listen, have a great day tomorrow. Congratulations.

HC: Thank you.

RB: Come on England.

HC: Yeah.

RB: OK, bye.

HC: Bye, bye.

CH: We reached Hayley Cullum and James Adams in Norwich, England.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Ontario Migrants, Koala Genome

Ontario Migrants

Guest: Francisco Rico-Martinez

CH: The first shots have been fired in what promises to be a multi-front battle between Doug Ford’s Ontario Progressive Conservatives and Justin Trudeau's federal Liberals. And in the middle are a lot of would-be refugees. The New Ontario government is blaming Mr. Trudeau for the asylum seekers who Toronto's housing shelters are struggling to accommodate. Here's provincial social services minister Lisa MacLeod.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA MACLEOD: It was the federal government who has encouraged this. Since 2017 nearly 28,000 people have crossed the border illegally coming into Canada and according to our prime minister only hundreds have been sent back. This is not acceptable. This has resulted in a housing crisis in the city of Toronto. This has started to threaten the services that Ontario families depend upon. This mess was created by the federal government and the federal government should foot 100 per cent of the bills.

CH: For his part the Prime Minister has been ever so politely suggesting that Premier Ford might have some learning to do about how refugee law works. Then there's Toronto Mayor John Tory. He appealed directly to Mr. Trudeau today for money to ease his city's shelter needs. But so far the politicians talk hasn't done much for the people Francisco Rico-Martinez is trying to help. Mr. Rico-Martinez is the co-director of the FCJ Refugee Centre in Toronto.

RB: Mr. Rico-Martinez, if the politicians cannot figure out how to cooperate, what are you worried is going to happen to those who are seeking asylum?

FRANCISCO RICO-MARTINEZ: Homelessness is my real worry because we are the last resort for them. The emergency shelter is only place they have, many of them they don't know anybody here. So the refugee houses are totally full of refugee claimants and families and everything. So the lack of services, the lack of a place to stay, families on the street that would be a very terrible thing and I think is going to happen.

RB: And how dire is the timeline, if you say that these people could be homeless or are we talking in the next month, in the next two months?

FRC: Well, you had different things. For instance, the number of refugee claimants arriving in Canada have reduced a little bit but the number is high. We have people in the city of Toronto that the city have put in the dorms of colleges. That has to be out on the ninth of August. The emergency shelters are in 95 96 per cent capacity now. So the new people come in, if we don't find a place for the ones that we have here is going to be just waiting for a crisis to happen maybe four to five weeks at the most.

RB: You talk about the shelters being almost at capacity. We heard yesterday that Ontario Premier Doug Ford squarely blames Ottawa for what he's calling this housing crisis, that the influx of refugees have led to this. What did you make of that?

FRC: I think he's forgetting that for the last, maybe 15 years, our provincial governments have totally forgot the public housing and the development of appropriate housing for people in need. And they haven’t invested in emergency shelters situation as well. So, of course, the situation is bad, but because we have not been building the capacity and that's why it's so sad. And they are blaming the refugee claimants for this. It’s so sad because the refugee claimants are the last in the line — the most oppressed, the most vulnerable. It’s sad for me as a Canadian because our values — the definition I learned when I came to Canada was not that one.

RB: But if you listen to the Progressive Conservatives, their point of view is ‘but we can't open our doors to absolutely everyone no matter what our Canadian values.’ You heard Lisa MacLeods comments there about the prime minister and Ottawa being responsible for this mess. What do you think?

FRC: And I think Ottawa is responsible as a federal government. You know, because the jurisdiction of the refugee claimants is the responsibility of the federal government, the federal procedures, the IRB — all of these are federal jurisdiction. But in reality the refugee claimants and the new comers, they don't come and integrate at the federal government level. They come and live and integrate and work and study and play and everything in our level — at the city level, at the neighbourhood level. And that's where, in my opinion, the City of Toronto and many cities have to kick in and have a responsibility to serve the inhabitants, the residents of that city in that particular moment. And the province is also, in the way of humanity, they are also responsible for doing this. And to make these refugee claims responsible is not the issue. I think we have to talk amongst civil society, the city, the provincial government, the federal environment and then put in a plan and ideas together move forward — not to close doors. Closed doors exclude people and excluding people makes life for the society miserable.

RB: Are you worried about a backlash, a rise in anti-refugee sentiment, especially when you hear the mayor of Toronto, the premier of Ontario saying that if asylum seekers keep coming in that they will have to open up Toronto community centres for instance and summer camps will be closed? How much do you worry that that is going to create a backlash?

FRC: It is already happening. You know, in my office we receive maybe one or two very aggressive e-mails of people complaining that we have to act and we have to be convince the Prime Minister to stop these illegal crossings. And blaming them against us is going to make it very difficult.

RB: When you get those emails how do you respond to those people?

FRC: I don't respond, I don't respond because for me it's a clear campaign that is coming from these organized sectors that are basically trying to attack and basically reduce the motivation of social workers to basically serve the refugee claimants. So I don't ignore it, I read that and if a person in the street or whatever approached me and asked me a question at that moment I really answer, but the emails I won't have a time to do it. I have many other things to do. I need to work on many of these refugee claimants and that's the way that we want to prove that the problem is not theirs. The problem is how we are reacting to the situation that we have in our hands.

RB: Mr. Rico-Martinez, thank you very much for your time.

FRC: No, thank you.

RB: Bye, bye.

FRC: Bye, bye. Francisco Rico-Martinez is the co-director of the FCJ Refugee Centre in Toronto.

[Music: Oboes]

Alan Diaz obit

CH: In the photograph a 6-year-old Cuban boy has a look of terror on his face because a U.S. government agent is pointing a gun in his direction. That's the famous image that Alan Diaz captured back in 2000, some of you will remember it. The boy in the photo, Elian Gonzalez, was at the centre of a high profile custody battle. His relatives in the U.S. wanted him to stay there but his father wanted him back in Cuba. Mr. Diaz was there the day government agents raided the Miami home and took the boy away. The image he captured would eventually earn him the Pulitzer Prize. Alan Diaz has died at the age of 71. His daughter described him as a man whose whole life was quote “photography and my mother,” unquote. Last year Mr. Diaz did an interview with his former employer, the Associated Press, about what happened the day he took that picture. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

ALAN DIAZ: Elian, he was crying, nervous, afraid. And he says to me ‘Que tel pasando, Que tel pasando,’ which is ‘What's happening, what's happening?’ And honestly the only thing I could say was I said it in Spanish, ‘Nothing's happening baby, it's going to be all right.’ Now I know that maybe I was lying but I just didn't have anything else to say. I didn't know what else to say. I've heard every cry there is —crying because they're hungry, crying because they injured themselves crying because they're spoiled — but I've never heard a cry like that. That was a different cry. And it really gets to you really, you really feel it. I just point my camera to the door because I could hear the footsteps in the house. You know, I could hear them, actually hear them, and they made the same mistake I made, they went to his room and they must have saw and, you know, he's not there. So that's when they come in this room. They banged the door a couple of times and that door just blasted open. I have photos in my mind that will live on forever of other photographers that I've taken and I mentioned some of them, and it's amazing to know that your photo will live on.

CH: That was associated press photographer Alan Diaz speaking last year about his Pulitzer Prize winning photograph of Elian Gonzalez. Mr. Diaz has died at the age of 71.

[Music: Somber Tones]

Talking Crow

CH: Knaresborough Castle in North Yorkshire is a majestic place. It overlooks the River Nidd and was once the stronghold of medieval kings. Recently a new resident was spotted on the grounds gently inquiring about tourists well-being in a distinctive Yorkshire accent — a crow. This week a woman visiting the area filmed an exchange she had with the bird. And we've had talking animals on this program before and to be honest to say they talk is usually a bit of a stretch, but this is different. This Crow has a distinctive Yorkshire accent. In fact, you may not be able to tell which is the bird and which is the person.

SOUNDCLIP

CROW MAKING HUMAN LIKE SOUNDS

CH: That was North Yorkshire resident Lisa Brooks conversing with a pied crow outside Knaresborough Castle in North Yorkshire.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Koala Genome

Guest: Rebecca Johnson

CH: They're facing threats like habitat destruction and disease, but researchers say they have new information that might help save vulnerable koala populations. This week those researchers published a new study in the journal Nature Genetics. It was five years in the making and involved dozens of experts from around the world. They sequenced the whole genome of a koala, a painstaking and impressive scientific endeavor that I don't understand at all. So to tell us how that might actually help the koalas we reached wildlife forensic scientist Rebecca Johnson. She's the lead author of this paper and she's in Sydney.

RB: Professor Johnson, I think the koala is largely known for being cute, cuddly but it turns out they're living a pretty tough life. Can you tell us about some of the challenges they're facing?

PROFESSOR REBECCA JOHNSON: Yeah, they definitely are known as being cute and maybe cuddly although those claws are pretty fearsome. The genome has given us brand new insight into our understanding of koalas. They do have a really specialized lifestyle. They live in the trees and they live on just a few species of eucalyptus as their primary food source. So even though we have hundreds of species of eucalyptus here in Australia, they really only about 20 of them. And the genome has shown that they have this amazing ability to detoxify because eucalyptus is basically poison if we ate it to the same level as koalas we would probably die.

RB: Wow, that's extraordinary. So how were they able to eat this poison and not die?

RJ: Well, we found in the data that they've had a couple of big expansions in this particular group of have metabolic enzymes. So these enzymes are actually very important for life. So practically every living organism has them, from bacteria to big multicellular organisms like us. But koalas seem to have many more if they've detoxification enzymes for this one particular group than any other species that we were able to compare it to.. And so we think by having more of these particular enzymes they’re able to eat this really specialized diet. And we also found from looking at different koala tissues that they are particularly expressed in the liver, which is exactly what we would expect them to be.

RB: That is some extraordinarily detailed information, which you have plucked off of studying the genome. Just remind us, give us a little high school course refresher on what information the genome actually carries?

RJ: The genome and carries pretty much all of the building blocks to make up an organism. So it is a really big project to sequences an entire genome. The human genome for example it took ten years and costs three billion dollars something like that. So for the koala genome, you know, we would love to have that kind of funding, but in the non-human world it's not quite like that. And what we've found for the koala is that the koala genome is about the same size as human, maybe a little bit bigger. So it's got 3.4 billion base pairs that make up the koala genome, and 26,000 genes that we found for koalas.

RB: I understand that the koala also has a bit of a chlamydia problem. Tell us about this?

RJ: Yeah, unfortunately it is one of the threats that they're facing that there are vulnerable species here in Australia, and that's for a range of reasons, but chlamydia is certainly something that ravages quite a few of the populations, both here in New South Wales where I am, and also in Queensland. They get it in their eyes and they also get it in their urogenital tracts, so it can make them blind if it's in their eyes or it can make them sterile if it’s in their urogenital tracts. So you can imagine what effect that would have on an animal in the wild. So if they're lucky they can be taken into care and treated for that chlamydia by antibiotic treatment. But finding these detoxification abilities that they have actually explains a lot about how they're treated for chlamydia. Then they are treated they’re given these massive doses of antibiotics, they often given antibiotics for 30 days in a row — and that might treat the chlamydia. And so clearly their ability to detoxify is having effects on this kind of veterinary care as well. So we're hoping that the genome is going to advance and improve the way that they kind of diseases are treated too.

RB: And you say that all of this information that you have gleaned from his genome project actually could help conservation efforts. How so?

RJ: Yes. So in addition to directly helping us understand and treat the chlamydia that that they do suffer conservation it gets a lot of attention here in Australia, particularly for something is as iconic as the koala. And unfortunately, population numbers of koalas are going down, particularly in New South Wales where I am and in Queensland. And what we've found through some really high resolution genome linked markers that we found as part of the project, is we've been able to assess the genetic diversity of koalas from right across Australia. And we've found that in those places where those populations are declining they have stacks of genetic diversity and this is a really important thing to maintain if we are to continue to have a healthy and genetically diverse population. By contrast koalas that are just further south in Australia, so in Victoria and South Australia, those animals are highly inbred unfortunately. Somewhat ironically, there's lots of them, so they're really challenging for conservation.

RB: And this entire genome project, it's been posted online the public can see it. What are you hoping the researchers who look at this information will try and do with it?

RJ: So we're hoping that researchers who work on koalas will take this work and extend it — the sky's the limit almost once you have a genome. For the human genome, for example, 20 years after it was sequenced we’re still discovering things about humans and the therapeutics and the knowledge that we get the ability to treat things or understand things continue to improve. So we're hoping that that will be the case for koalas.

RB: What new appreciation do you have for koalas now that you have completed this project?

RJ: I admire how much they sleep. They sleep up to 19 hours a day, and they spend the rest of the time eating and maybe a few minutes a day moving between trees. So they have a really interesting breakdown of that. But I have to say that they're pretty chilled out animals that you can go walk up to a wild animal and if you don't interfere with what's it or touch it they’re pretty chilled out. They’ll look back at you and if you think about doing that with another wild animal like a bear or a lion or something you just couldn't do that. So they are quite unique and appealing in that way.

RB: Well, it's given me a new life goal, sleeping 19 hours a day sounds pretty good. Professor Johnson, great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

RJ: My absolute pleasure.

CH: Rebecca Johnson is the director of the Australian Museum Research Institute and the lead author of a new study on the koala’s genome. We reached her in Sydney, Australia.

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July 6, 2018 episode transcript

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