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The Current Transcript for June 1, 2018

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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This is a ridiculous situation that the U.S. has tied national security concerns to trade of metals in Canada. We are going to continue to stand up for steel workers, aluminium workers across the country.

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: That is Prime Minister Justin Trudeau today on CBC Radio's Information Morning in Halifax and it comes a day after US President Donald Trump announced stiff tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum and Canada shot back with tariffs of its own. Who are the likely casualties on either side of the border for producers to workers to consumers, those hopeful to those fearful were talking steel in just a few moments. And then she's a University of British Columbia grad and an outspoken activist for women's rights in her native Saudi Arabia. But despite much touted improvements in life for women in the kingdom, Loujain Al-Hathloul finds herself in Saudi custody once again.

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As for freedom of speech, it's promised by the government. We have the right to express ourselves freely without the condemned or sent to jail or whatever. But in practice it's not there.

PC: After pressure on her Canadian alma mater UBC has called on Ottawa to intervene in the case. I'll speak with one of Loujain Al-Hathloul former professors in half an hour. Also on today's show:

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Think about basically what does make you happy and know if other people offering you the key to happiness or the secret to happiness, treat it with a very great big pinch of salt because it's never that simple.

PC: No happiness is never that simple. Neuroscientist Dean Burnett and all the complex and fascinating scientific facts about what's going on inside the happy brain. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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Tariffs are a NAFTA bargaining chip, argues Canadian steel magnate

Guests: Barry Zekelman, Ken Neumann, Kati Simpson

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VOICE 1: Decision is that in the case of Canada, Mexico and the EU they will be placed under the 25 percent tariff on steel and the 10 percent tariff on aluminum effective midnight tonight.

VOICE 2: What we have to believe that at some point common sense will prevail. But we see no sign of that in this action today.

VOICE 3: This is a very strong Canadian action in response to a very bad U.S. decision.

PC: Shots back and forth yesterday in an escalating trade skirmish between the United States and Canada. With stiff new tariffs on Canadian metal exports, foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland announced retaliatory tariffs yesterday on American steel and aluminum and other American products sold here including Orange Juice bourbon and toilet paper. It is a dispute that sending shock waves through industry on both sides of the border. And some say it's just a matter of time before those shock waves are felt in terms of lost jobs and increased costs to weak consumers. But we're starting today with someone who welcomes President Trumps new tariffs. Barry Zekelman is the CEO of Zekelman industries. It is one of North America's largest steel tubing manufacturers. He is with us from Windsor Ontario now. Hello.

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Hi, Piya, how are you doing?

PC: I'm okay. You have been speaking out in support of higher tariffs which is out of step with what many Canadian steel and aluminum players are saying. Why?

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Well you know I'm supportive of tariffs. You know I wish they weren't in place against Canada but unfortunately you know it's being used as a lever to hopefully speed along some NAFTA negotiations. I'm actually would like to see Canada impose tariffs on other foreign nations who are shipping a lot of dump steel in here and decimating our steel industry. That's really what I'd like to see. I wish Canada and the U.S. didn't have this dispute but they do right now and it's being used as a tool and probably is going to be used effectively to speed things up at the at the negotiation table.

PC: Your business itself is in both Canada the U.S. The majority of it is in the U.S. You will be hit hard by these tariffs. What do what do they mean for your business?

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Well I mean as of today I'm going to be paying 25 percent duty on product I ship over to the U.S. And you know we ship also product from the U.S. to Canada. So we're going to have to still be paying 25 percent duty on that also. So we're going to have to rebalance some things. We'll have to move some production around back and forth that will be a little less efficient. I certainly assume that there's going to be a drop in the Canadian dollar because of this I assume that also are our Canadian suppliers are going to have to help bear some of this cost. But I also think that you know hopefully this is going to be short lived. If it isn't you know it's going to be a longer term problem. But again you know why aren't we looking at other countries who are abusing us rather than the US? I have a plant right now in Welland that’s been closed since 2015. Many people out of work was consuming over 100000 tons of Canadian steel a year and I can't open it because of products shipped from Thailand and Vietnam into Canada.

PC: That's point, right. The U.S. already puts the tariffs on China and other countries that are accused of dumping cheaper steel in our country in the U.S. So what makes you think tariffs on allies like Canada will have any effect on cheap steel coming in from China.

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Look let's make this clear. This isn't about Canadian steel. All right. Canada does not dump steel into the U.S. or aluminum. This is solely about the NAFTA negotiations and Trump saying look I've had enough. You know we've sat down for many many months, almost two years, and we're not there yet. And this is unacceptable and I don't disagree with him. I mean the real sticking point now is this sunset clause and I don't know why everybody is so upset about it. It doesn't mean that after five years this agreement becomes null and void. It means that after five years we sit down and see if it needs a tweak. Sunset clause or no sunset clause, here we're in an agreement today with no sunset clause and they found the ability to walk away and cancel it. So having a sunset clause to me is just the ability to sit down and tweak the agreement not only for Canada but for Mexico and for the U.S. So I don't think we should view that as a threat. So if that's the main stumbling block let's get the issue done.

PC: OK but let's get back to these particular tariffs because the critics say terrorist is another word for tax right. They point out that the steel industry is small compared to the number of businesses that use steel to make other things like cars, use aluminum to make beer cans, all those things. So even if this helps businesses like yours or helps in your opinion get a broader NAFTA deal potentially. How does this help me? How does this not lead to higher prices for consumers generally?

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Well it probably will lead to somewhat higher prices in these products but they're minuscule steel is everywhere and in everything. But as a component of the product it's tiny when you talk about a beer can. So you're worried as a consumer. All right it's one tenth of one cent for a beer can. That might be the increase one tenth of one cent. So you're telling me you're going to feel that, don't buy a coffee at Starbucks for 4.50.

PC: But scale up from beer of beer, you scale up to others.

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Sure. Let's scale up from beer so you know let's move to a piece of gym equipment. So a squat rack that weighs 200 pounds and costs 1400 dollars is now going to cost 1440 dollars. All right. Because there's only about 200 dollars worth of steel in there. So you know we're talking about minuscule amounts. And you're also talking about an industry that people have benefited from massive deflation and stagnation for three decades. The steel industry has been pushed down and abused for three decades. So all argue that people have been getting artificially low prices in steel for three decades. It's been witnessed by the multiple bankruptcies in the industry because of forn and dumped imports.

PC: Barry Zekelman thank you for your time I appreciate it.

BARRY ZEKELMAN: Thanks.

PC: Barry Zekelman is the CEO of Zekelman industries one of the largest steel tubing manufacturers in North America. We reached him in our Windsor studio today. Well Barry Zekelman may approve of Trump's tariffs but many Canadians see things differently. Ken Neumann is the national director of the United Steelworkers of Canada. And we have reached him today in Dawson Pennsylvania. Hello.

KEN NEUMANN: Good morning and thanks for having me.

PC: Thank you. What is your reaction to what Barry Zekelman just said about tariffs and how he sees them?

KEN NEUMANN: Well my reaction is that the tariff should not be imposed in Canada. I think he said that and that you should be going after the bad actors which there's many countries out there that are continuing to dump in Canada. And this really boils down to, I don't think Barry is wrong with respect to what this really all boils down to the NAFTA dispute. If you recall when President Trump and Trudeau first met and talked about the revisiting of the NAFTA I think that President Trump's comments were we just need a couple of tweaks. Well if you look at what they've really proposed it's not tweaks, it's a matter of total reorganization of the complete agreement so this this President Trumps way of saying to Canada look at you've not agreed to my NAFTA agreement that I need or want. So therefore I'm going to not punish you with the 25 and 10. That's just wrongheaded is bad policy and it's going to harm a lot of workers on both sides and we're totally opposed. We've been working as an International Union and Canada the US, talking to our allies wherever we can to be on the same page as we are. But Canada is not the problem. It has been proved and numerous sets of testimony and admissions by some fairly high ranking people in the U.S...

PC: Let me just ask you what impact this U.S. decision will have on steel and aluminum workers here in our country, in Canada, on the workers.

KEN NEUMANN: Well I think the biggest impact is the fact is that we've been very integrated market and I think probably in one of the biggest ones is going to be the auto sector because in many cases the steel aluminum may cross our borders four or five times before it's put into a final product. And I think that that's where you're going to see in a very short period of time that's going to put a chokehold on some of the supply chain, and there is possibility of some workers getting laid off and those particular circumstances. So I think it'll take not that long that you'll see some significant impact. You know every day we have a billion dollars’ worth of trade that crosses our borders. And here is Mr. Trump, President Trump, basically punishing your best neighbor and this totally disrespectful. It's unconscionable that they've now come and the evidence is very clear.

PC: Okay. Let me pick up on something that the Trump administration has said in terms of its reasoning. It's something that you Barry Zekelman mentioned as well. Part of the reasoning is the terror of the terrorist is an attempt to slow the flood of cheap steel and aluminum from countries like China and Canada. So how much of a concern is steel dumping for you and your membership?

KEN NEUMANN: Well it's huge. It's very it's not wrong. The fact is he talks about putting tariffs, Canada's put tariffs and other countries. Our view is and we've been very vocal to the government of Canada that we as a union need to have the right to file dumping compliance on behalf of our members and the communities. Unfortunately we still don't have that. The government of Canada has made some improvements. We now have access and standing in the US. We have full access where we can complain. We are recently involved in two or three cases where the ITT has ruled, has been excessive dumping of Korean steel. So they put significant tariffs on it. So we have to make sure as Canadians that Canada has strong rules that can be enforced and that we need to be part of those enforcement mechanisms. And that's because we're very much concerned now that some of the steel from these countries that are bad actors are not playing to the rules they're going to try to find a home for it. And it could end up here.

PC: Yesterday just hours after the US announced its decision on tariffs. Canada retaliates putting tariffs on American steel and aluminum. What do you make of our federal government's response?

KEN NEUMANN: Well I think the retaliatory tariffs is the right thing to do. The Government has moved swiftly to- and I've said that yesterday myself that look you just can't sit on the sidelines and that someone bully around because he's trying to force you into a different agreement on NAFTA. So I think that the government's reaction was it was quick and it is a long list of tariffs that the kind of you know the story things that have taken place. I can already see it because I'm currently in the U.S. you've got Ohio, some of their people have come out and opposed. I think what you're going to see they're going to be a lot of pressure because the U.S. has a trade surplus on fuel with Canada. But there are 36 states that have trade surpluses but Canada. Those people have to be getting up this morning be really concerned with the tariffs that Canada retaliatory measures that Canada has now imposed that they're going to be really concerned because one of their biggest trading partners is now going to have tariffs against them. So hopefully it is very short lived. No one ever had one of this trade war we've had. Why would you punish your neighbor? Just live by the rules. We're not a threat to national security. It makes absolutely no sense. And I think as Mr. Zekelman also said this is really about NAFTA and I don't really disagree with that. That's what it is trying to leverage Canada to capitulate to something that he wants and that's something that's not in the cards for Canada.

PC: Ken Neumann. We'll have to leave it there thank you.

KEN NEUMANN: Thank you.

PC: Ken Neumann is the national director of the United Steelworkers of Canada. Today he is in Dawson Pennsylvania. Well CBC National Reporter Kati Simpson has been following this story closely and she joins us now from our Ottawa bureau. Kati hello.

KATI SIMPSON: Good morning.

PC: Put this in perspective for us. How is this dispute playing out politically in Ottawa?

KATI SIMPSON: The Canadian government was backed into a corner. Justin Trudeau and Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland have really tried to stay on the high road when it comes to dealing with the Trump administration, and trying to make a solid fact based argument that trade between Canada and the US is in fact not just good for the Canadian economy and Canadian jobs, but that it's good for the American economy and good American middle class jobs. The past 18 months or so. Justin Trudeau and his inner circle have been making numerous trips down to different parts of the United States to point out 'hey let's go visit this factory. Look how many jobs are here'. Well these jobs are created because of trade with Canada and really trying to emphasize that point that a lot of American jobs depend on that. But yesterday with this action by the Trump administration it questions whether that strategy has worked. It certainly appears it has not resonated with the White House because Canada is now in a position where it had to retaliate. And we saw Justin Trudeau really question the common sense of the Trump administration.

PC: And so we've been talking about this. It is within the context of NAFTA negotiations and the Sunset clause that Canada says no to that the U.S. administration wants. What will this trade battle mean for those negotiations do you think?

KATI SIMPSON: This will not be welcomed by now after negotiators that is certain. Justin Trudeau sort of was candid in yesterday's news conference and sort of shared a little bit about sort of the last couple of weeks. We know that the talks had broken down. There had been a lot of disagreement around rules for the auto sector but apparently, according to Justin Trudeau, Canada felt that there had been enough compromise there. And Justin Trudeau said he had reached out to the White House saying he was willing to go down to the White House and try and sort of negotiate those final details to get this across the finish line. And that's when we heard his story take a turn saying he got a callback from Vice President Pence and that they wanted to say, okay, come on down. But one thing we have to include a sunset clause that's something Canada does not want to include. The reason Canada and both actually Mexico don't want that in there is that it creates a lot of instability. If every five years all three countries have to re agreed to be in there or do a thorough examination of whether this trade deal should remain in place, it's going to discourage investors from putting money in both Mexico and Canada. Think about it this way; if you're an investor and you want to build a new facility a new factory something like that, are you going to go to Mexico and build that when you're not sure if you're still going to have access to the American market in five years? And the same could be applied to Canada. Why go build in Canada when you're not quite sure you're going to have duty free access to that big American market. So it's something that really plays to the Trump administration trying to bring jobs back to the United States. And that's why we're seeing the Americans be so very firm in making that demand for that sunset clause.

PC: I know you've been covering the NAFTA negotiations for more than a year now very closely. In that context but also more broadly what does what happened yesterday and the words by both leaders of both the countries say about our relationship, Kati, with one another right now?

KATI SIMPSON: The trade relationship as it stands. This is certainly a low point for Canada U.S. trade relations and and there certainly is a frustration in Ottawa that that despite the economic arguments that the prime minister and his senior advisers have sort of made to those high level advisers in the U.S., to Congressman, to senators that that argument hasn't been enough to sort of have Canada be in a position where it didn't have to take these actions, where Canada's industries aren't being hit by tariffs. So there certainly is a frustration here. But Canada is still trying to sort of stay on the high road here. Remember Donald Trump is supposed to come to the G7 meeting next week It would be an opportune if he does still come. And all indications are he is still coming. It will be an opportunity for Justin Trudeau to meet face to face with Donald Trump and sort of make the case for why these tariffs are not good for the Canadian economy but also not good for the American economy. So Justin Trudeau really has to keep it high level because if you're going to have credibility with another world leader it's not helpful to be on the public record saying negative or disparaging things. So Justin Trudeau really needs to continue to keep his powder dry. But this is certainly, certainly, not a good day for Canada U.S. relations.

PC: Except the critics of the Trudeau government say look your tone your approach over the last number of months hasn't worked. It's time to shift. So help me understand the criticism of that.

KATI SIMPSON: Well absolutely. Actually I put his question to Justin Trudeau at the news conference yesterday. He's taken the high road and we've seen some European leaders they have been more vocal in their frustration with Donald Trump and their criticism of Donald Trump. And at the end of the day both the European Union and Canada have been hit by these tariffs even though they've taken completely different tacks in trying to handle the Trump administration. So I put it to the prime minister and said do you do you think this is working? Do you think this is going well? He sort of avoided answering the question directly but it appears at this point there they're going to continue on with this tact where they try to be charming with the administration rather than tough. So we heard the conservatives yesterday saying they're frustrated that the government hasn't been vocal enough in terms of you know calling for just focusing on the core issues of trade, that Canada perhaps shouldn't have gone in saying hey we want a chapter on gender. We want a chapter to improve environmental standards. There is a frustration from the conservatives that if they suggest, whether it would work or not is a question, but they suggest that if Canada had just gone and focused on the basics and really tried to nail down that NAFTA deal, there are questions that you know if there had been an after reached by this point would this be playing out the way it is? Would Canada have been able to avoid these tariffs? But there certainly has been some frustration by the Conservatives. But there's a really interesting dynamic here that I must mention, the Conservatives have promised that when they go to the United States that they are a part of quote unquote "Team Canada". They're not going to go down there criticize the Liberal government they're not going to treat this as a partisan issue. But yesterday we had such mixed messages from the Conservatives. Erin O'Toole who is the critic of foreign affairs spoke on Parliament Hill really being very frustrated with the actions of the Trudeau government, saying that they failed to secure the steel and aluminum industry. And then at the same time Andrew Scheer who's the leader of the conservatives he held a news conference a couple of hours later saying well we're willing to work with the Canadian government and offer whatever support we can, but they've still failed the steel industry, still failed the aluminium industry. So there are some mixed messaging there and I expect that to continue.

PC: Kati Simpson good to talk to you as always. Thank you.

KATI SIMPSON: Good to talk to you as well.

PC: The CBC's Kati Simpson in Ottawa. All right we're heading to the CBC News and then we will be talking about Saudi Arabia and the situation about one person who went to UBC, Loujain Al-Hathloul outspoken women's rights activist who finds herself once again detained by Saudi officials. We'll be talking about that pad. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. The news is coming up next and then we'll be back.

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Arrest of UBC graduate casts doubt on Saudi Arabia's push for reform

Guests: Sima Gofrey, Hiba Zayadin

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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PC: Still to come. Lots of us spend our lives in the pursuit of happiness but what does happiness actually mean? In half an hour, I'll be joined by neuroscientist Dean Burnett who's been working hard to figure out just what happiness looks like, scientifically speaking. But first speaking out for an outspoken alumna.

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[Arabic speech]

PC: Well it was four years ago that Saudi activist Loujain Al-Hathloul made headlines by hopping in her car and attempting to drive from the United Arab Emirates into Saudi Arabia. She filmed part of that voyage inside her car and posted it to YouTube. The bit we just heard ended with her saying 'let's see what happens'. And what happened was that Loujain Al-Hathloul was detained for 70 days. And so it may seem ironic that now that the Saudi government is set to end its ban against women driving, Loujain Al-Hathloul has been detained once again. On May 15, he was arrested in Saudi Arabia along with nine other human rights activists. Here she is talking to CBC's As It Happens, a couple of years ago in 2015 about fighting for women's rights in the kingdom.

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The other rights were trying to get for so many years, almost of them have been given because we are very vocal about. They want to give us the rights in their own terms without us pushing it. It's alright for them to ask us to calm down and just relax and wait for decisions to come from them. But that's what we don't want. We want our voices to count. We are part of the society and we are actually running it.

PC: Well before her earlier arrest in 2014, Loujain Al-Hathloul had been living here in Canada studying French at the University of British Columbia. And this past Wednesday the school's President Santa Ono issued a statement calling on Ottawa to intervene in Al-Hathloul's case. It reads in part: "As UBC President I'm deeply moved by alumni who so clearly and demonstrably reflect a commitment to justice and human rights within an environment where those actions come with significant threats to personal safety and security. He goes on to ask that the Canadian government work with its Saudi Arabian counterparts to ensure Ms. Al-Hathloul news release and to encourage Saudi Arabia to and to recognize the rights of Saudi Arabian women". It was the statement many UBC faculty members had been waiting for including Sima Godfrey she's an associate professor French in the Department of French Hispanic and Italian Studies at UBC, and she's also a former teacher of Loujain Al-Hathloul. We have reached Sima Godfrey in Vancouver. Hello.

SIMA GODFREY: Hello.

PC: What do you remember about your student Loujain Al-Hathloul from her time at UBC?

SIMA GODFREY: Well She made a mark immediately when she came to my class. She was in a class I was teachingina trench titled What is Frenchness and the class was made up of students of different backgrounds who had or had not experienced living in France. And in order to talk about Frenchness we also had to talk about what Frenchness wasn't. And that's where the experience of Loujain was quite important because she had been a Saudi student studying in Paris and she offered very valuable perspective on a variety of issues that we were addressing, including the famous headscarf affair that lasted for about 15 years. So she stood out immediately and was feisty and she was outspoken in conversations and in class. And I subsequently spoke to her also in my office after class and we had a variety of conversations that were really really very interesting and important and educated me.

PC: And during those conversations did she ever tell you about what her plans would be after her graduation?

SIMA GODFREY: Oh. Absolutely. One of the first things I asked her was what her plans were and she said quite boldly and simply 'I'm going back to Saudi Arabia to fight for the rights of women'. And what I didn't know at the time, but only learned recently, was that while she was still a student in 2013 she had posted a video where she appeared with her face and hair uncovered and where she openly made fun of ultraconservative critics and declared that she would never cover up. And this video went viral and she took it off. But by that point it had been circulated on social media and she ended up with many many followers and then continued to post more videos, and as a result became a real personality on social media and she got everything from insults and rumors to death threat as well. This was while she was still a student here in Vancouver.

PC: She had been arrested before being detained again. Does it feel different for you this time?

SIMA GODFREY: Oh yes. Well first of all I didn't know about the initial arrest when she drove across the border until after it had happened. So I could only be thankful that she was fine and appreciate and admired the gesture she had made. This time she is detained we know very little about it. And as each day passes I think there's room for more concern. No charges have been laid yet, as far as I know but from what I've been reading if we wait until charges were laid that squarely make the situation even more precarious for her.

SIMA GODFREY: I want to play you a bit of tape. This comes from a Jaffer who is a Atiya Jaffar friend of Loujain Al-Hathloul back from her days at UBC. Take a listen to this.

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She is really a force I think you know that's something that I recognize from meeting her the very first time. She's incredibly fierce, incredibly well spoken and such an inspiring advocate for women's rights and for justice in general. I think being with her at UBC, she was always kind of like the light of the party, really really full of energy, full of really good humor and that's a really amazing person to have a conversation with. She is an incredible person. And I think even though we are not lliving in the same country, living so far from each other it's been so inspiring to follow everything that she's been doing. I'm incredibly inspired by her work and she's always been incredibly fierce. And I can see that she is now as well. And just you know praying for her strength right now. And and the charges that you're taking and the detention that should be the thing right now.

PC: Sima Godfrey when you hear that what does it tell you about the effect of Loujain Al-Hathloul's activism has had on people beyond Saudi Arabia specifically to the people at UBC.

SIMA GODFREY: Well frankly I agree with everything this past students said about her personality. She had the same effect on me and on everyone around her. She was so self-confident, so determined and really clearly so fearless. She knew when she told us about her plans that she was putting herself at some risk. And I have enormous admiration for her about that. Again I wasn't familiar with the students that she was generally associating with outside of class. And I can only assume that she had that same charismatic effect on them. I saw that happen when she spoke to others. I think a lot of people have now seen that portrait of her that's being circulating and you can really see that spark in her eyes and it was there when you spoke to her.

PC: When we at CBC first approached the University for a Statement last weekend a UBC spokesperson said it would be inappropriate to comment on actions unrelated to a student's time at UBC. You, along with the 80 of your colleagues, signed a letter asking the president of the university to push Ottawa to intervene on behalf of Loujain Al-Hathloul. Why was that important for you to do?

SIMA GODFREY: Well aside from the fact that I felt the university owed her this as her alma mater, and the irony for me was at the time or perhaps what made this even more pressing was that this happened during one of our graduation weeks and UBC has made its mission to create global citizens and to empower students through education. And that was a message that approximately eight thousand students graduating from UBC were hearing for the same two weeks when Loujain was detained. And given that message I thought it was all the more important that UBC recognize the efforts of a student who'd gone out and done exactly what they were requesting or encouraging students to do. And nobody was asking the university to intervene directly in any discussions or to comment on any particular activities. But simply to express concern for Loujain as it would for any other student at UBC.

PC: We did ask UBC President Santa Ono to come speak with us yesterday or this morning but there are convocation ceremonies this week and it couldn't happen. But what do you think UBC can do, should do as you wait to learn what will happen with Loujain Al-Hathloul's case in Saudi Arabia.

SIMA GODFREY: Well first of all I appreciate it, as do many many people I know, the statement that the president issued and which I found actually quite bold and I admire him for doing that. The only thing I can think of that the university can do is to simply continue its conversations with Ottawa and make sure that this story doesn't fall off the radar. As for members of the faculty or student body UBC, they of course can create petitions of their own and perhaps even create a letter writing campaign to Ottawa. I don't know if there's any efforts to communicate directly with the Saudi embassy in Ottawa I'm sure the Canadian government is doing that. But as far as letter writing I'm not sure whether that's something that is encouraged or advised.

PC: Sima Godfrey thank you for your time this morning.

SIMA GODFREY: Thank you.

PC: Sima Godfrey is an associate professor of French at UBC. She is in Vancouver. We reached out to Global Affairs Canada it sent us the following statement: "These arrests are inconsistent with the Saudi government stated commitment to create a more tolerant and open society. Mr. Freeland has raised Canada's human rights concerns with her Saudi counterpart during her recent trip to Bangladesh. Canada will continue to promote gender equality and the empowerment of women and girls both at home and abroad". Well we also reached out to the Saudi embassy here in Canada for comment but we have not heard back. Now Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman spoke about women's rights on the CBS show 60 Minutes earlier this year.

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INTERVIEWER: Are women equal to men.

M BIN SALMAN: Absolutely. We are all human beings and there's no difference.

INTERVIEWER: You have said you are taking Saudi Arabia back to what we were a moderate Islam. What does that mean?

M BIN SALMAN: We have extremists who forbid mixing between the two sexes and are unable to differentiate between a man and a woman alone together and their being together in a workplace. But many of those ideas contradict the way of life during the time of the Prophet and the columns. This is the real example and the true model.

PC: Well-known conversationally as MBS, the crown prince has tried to Russian himself as a reformer. But our next guest says this latest crackdown refutes that image. So for the latest on what's happening in Saudi Arabia we are joined by Hiba Zayadin. She's a researcher for the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch. And we have reached her in Amman Jordan. Hello.

HIBA ZAYADIN: Hello.

PC: Well what has been happening in Saudi Arabia since May 15?

HIBA ZAYADIN: So since May 15th there's been a growing crackdown on women's rights activists and others associated with the movement that has been very shocking to the international human rights community. The woman there's been around 11, at least 11, people detained so far and we are fearing that there may be more arrests forthcoming.

PC: Who are these activists? What have they been fighting for?

HIBA ZAYADIN: So three of the most prominent women's rights activists in Saudi Arabia today are behind bars. They have been campaigning for the right to drive which the ban is going to be lifted on just a couple of weeks. And these are some of the women that have been at the forefront of this movement. They've also been calling for abolishing the male guardianship system which is the greatest impediment to women's rights in Saudi Arabia, where they need guardianship approval to make a range of critical decisions. You know they've been campaigning for an anti-harassment law which has been passed. These women have been at the forefront of the movement for women's rights and for advancement in Saudi society.

PC: And so given that the driving ban for example is about to be lifted, what are the accusations against them?

HIBA ZAYADIN: So the accusations are broad, vague, they catch all phrases that are usually used to repress any form of dissent or expression in Saudi Arabia. One of the accusations that's been leveled against them and they haven't been charged yet, and we're not aware of any charges against them, is suspicious contact with foreign entities. And to destabilize the security and stability of Saudi Arabia. But these accusations are ludicrous. There is nothing remarkable about being in contact with international media and other institutions. Among those arrested are professors, writers, intellectuals. Eman Al-Nafjan, one of the women behind bars right now, has written countless times for international media outlets, including The New York Times and The Guardian, to accuse these woman of harming the safety and security of the nation simply because the advocate for basic rights is ludicrous, especially now that the MBS is branding himself as a reformer and a supporter of women's rights.

PC: So what do you make of the timing of all of this, the ban on driving for women again set to be lifted, where does the timing of all this fit in?

HIBA ZAYADIN: The timing doesn't seem right. I mean there's a lot of speculations about MBS, a clear message to the civil society in Saudi Arabia that nobody but him gets credit for for any sort of reform. So spaces for people to engage in decisions are very minimal and more dangerous now than they have been before. So it seems as if it's a way to control the narrative completely. And also a way to really put an end to these women's careers. I mean the seriousness of the accusations and the viciousness of the media campaign, it's pretty unprecedented how they're being branded in the media as traitors. Their photos are being splattered across front pages of local media newspapers with the word 'traitors' blasted red across their faces. It's pretty harrowing stuff.

PC: Hiba help us understand the context of all this because, as we said, here's the government of Saudi Arabia long known for being oppressive, saying ‘hey look we're the reformers now’, and then a crackdown at the same time. I mean they could do one without the other. So what is the motivation for the reforms that we've seen, things like news this week that Saudi Arabia will outlaw sexual harassment for example. Why these reforms now?

HIBA ZAYADIN: So that the reforms are part of- The economic context right now in Saudi Arabia is pushing the ruling the regime to diversify. And they're aggressively seeking investments which is you're seeing MBS going on this world went public Laotians tour in Europe and the U.S. and to brand himself as a modernizing force in Saudi Arabia. And I think that's the main reason behind such an aggressive campaigns to rebrand himself and his image. But really on the ground the reality speaks differently, given these intensified crackdowns.

PC: The cover of the June edition of the magazine Vogue Arabia has a photo of a Saudi princess in the driver's seat of a car. The caption says 'driving force a celebration of the trail blazing women of Saudi Arabia'. Take me to the ground on Saudi Arabia. How welcome are these kinds of changes internally among the people of Saudi Arabia?

HIBA ZAYADIN: I mean there's definitely some reticence. There are some people who are not OK with the driving ban being lifted but it's not as big of a concern as you would imagine, as apologists have been saying. So there's been speculations that these crackdowns have happened because they're trying to mitigate the situation on the ground. You know some ultra conservatives are unhappy about the ban being lifted. But after the announcement, after the decision was was announced to remove the drive ban, many of the prominent ultra conservative clerics in the country came out in support of the lifting of the ban. So, either way it's unjustified putting these women in jail because of speculations like this. So I think they're being met well but they're very limited. These reforms are limited and don't do enough to really fence women's role in society.

PC: Let's go back to the people who are arrested and detained including Loujain Al-Hathloul. What do we know about how these women who have been detained many of them since mid-May? How are they doing? How are they being treated while being held?

HIBA ZAYADIN: Well actually they're being held incommunicado right now. So they have no ability to contact their lawyers, families. Their whereabouts are unknown. No formal charges have been leveled against them. There's been no news about their situation since. And some of the women that have since been released are also unwilling to speak because of how terrifying the situation is right now on the ground. Saudi activists are scared who might be next. There's a lot of tension in the country currently. And we don't know the situation of these women right now.

PC: What do we know more broadly about the conditions for women in Saudi prisons?

HIBA ZAYADIN: I mean it's it's generally the same. You know there's arbitrary detention. When there's cases of enforced disappearance or arbitrary detention and then no contact with the outside world. There are always a greater fear of ill treatment and possibly torture inside the jails.

PC: And their families, what do we know about them and how they're being treated?

HIBA ZAYADIN: Their families. I mean that's another thing. Many of the families are unwilling to come up come out and speak about the events and what they know of the situation because the fear of further harassment for the family, even the extended family. There are reports of some being put under travel bans. Even activists on the outside are unwilling to speak because of the darkness of the situation and how it could affect people on the inside. And generally the stigma for the family. Aziza Youssef has grandchildren, Eman has children that are having to see these images of them being branded as traitors in the media. In this kind of society, it can be really stigmatizing.

PC: How is this story, this broad story of these detentions? I mean what is being said within the Kingdom within Saudi Arabia? What message? Is anyone there hearing about these activists right now?

HIBA ZAYADIN: I mean of course they are but the situation is so, as I said, frightening that many of the people on the inside are unwilling or unable to risk showing solidarity for these women. So there have been largely quiet which is why it's our role in the international community to provide that sense of solidarity, because on the inside it's just not possible that the stuff.

PC: I'm glad you brought up the international community because as I mentioned the cap that Canada has appealed for the release of the women detained. What kind of response do you want to see from the international community?

HIBA ZAYADIN: I think we're definitely looking to have states who have been you know have met leaders who have met with MVs who have expressed their delight at this reform process who have supported it. These people to call for the UN you know for the release of these women unjustly detained then celebrities that that he's met. We would hope to see some reaction, people who have touted his his reform process so far to come out and encourage MBS to release these women. Because the idea is that this woman and other men who are being held right now specifically for speaking out and for advocating for basic rights, they should be made partners in this reform process. And the is truly committed to this process. He should be making these people partners not punishing them having them publicly slandered in the country for calling for specifically what he claims to support, which is women's rights and an end to discrimination against women. This is what he's been presenting himself as.

PC: He has been front and center in the international community talking about his reforms. I am curious how much do you think international criticism matters to MBS at this point.

HIBA ZAYADIN: I think it definitely matters. I mean this is why this campaign, this PR campaign that he's pouring unimaginable amounts of money into, this shows that he does care about international responses and foreign investors would- these kinds of arrests, these kinds of lack of rule of law in the country, this doesn't help a thriving business community or a thriving community that can attract more foreign investments and that's his goal. And so if he's not committed to this vision for the future that he has a Vision 2030 which includes clauses about advancement of woman society and contributing to the economy. If he truly wants this to materialize he needs to open space up for the stunt and for people to come together to help make some of these decisions.

PC: Heba Zayadin, thank you.

HIBA ZAYADIN: Thank you very much for having me.

PC: Hiba Zayadin is a researcher for the Middle East and Northern Africa Division of Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Amman Jordan. All right. Coming up what's really going on inside her brains to make us feel happy. Neuroscientist Dean Burnett will take us inside the happy brain.

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Some estimates say that natural endorphins, the ones in our head, they are on average five times more powerful than heroin. And it's a really weird thought to think we have something five times more powerful than the most powerful narcotic just tucked inside our skull, just ready to be released as and when we want.

PC: That is coming up. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. You are listening to the Friday edition of The Current. We're back in just a bit.

[Music: Theme]

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Happiness doesn't come without hard work, according to neuroscience

Guest: Dean Burnett

PC: Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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[Song: Will Pharrell's Happy]

PC: I challenge you to be miserable after hearing because it brings you up, right. Well if you're wondering what is going on in the brain and the body when Pharrell asks you to clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth, well, our next guest is here to help. Dean Burnett is a neuroscientist and he is the author of a new book it's called The Happy Brain. It brings together some of the best current research on what makes us feel good and why does that. Dean Burnett joins us from a studio in Cardiff Wales. Hello.

DEAN BURNETT: Hi, Piya. Thanks For having me.

PC: Well let us start with that song. What is happening in my brain, in your brain and everyone who's listening to that song's brains when we're grooving out Pharrell.

DEAN BURNETT: It's really a strange thing in that seems to be a certain combination of properties in most modern pop music. The sort of thing which makes you want to sort of move to it, even though you might not like it. I mean I've had the same thing myself like a popular pop songs been on the radio and I hate that, it's so cheesy, it's awful but I'm here in a shop and I am queuing and I'm at my feet tapping along to it even though I resent it. And that's a really strange experience but a little research says that there's a certain combination of randomness and predictability which I'm like dance music and most catchy music hits a real sweet spot between predictable and unpredictable. And that seems to make the brain respond very positively to it. It's not too boring like a metronome, just going tick tick tick. It's not too confusing and scary like free jazz the sort of music that sounds like someone fill the tumbled rifle full of water full of saucepans and a racket. Something that breaks between these two properties seemed to make the brain really sort of just respond to it and want to move in accordance.

PC: Glad you explained to me because I often find myself going 'I hate that I like this song. I don't actually like it but there I am' you know whatever groove in in my minivan or whatever I do. But what is it about a song, these kinds of songs that make them a good mood enhancer?

DEAN BURNETT: It's a strange thing with music it sort of has these weird properties on the brain. Like human brain really really likes patterns but also real novelty. So these are things which can be quite rewarding in an evolutionary sense, things which are like they are visible patterns, they can be predicted and therefore they reduce uncertainty, so you know what's come in, so you feel a bit more reassured by that rather than something new and scary. But something which is too familiar too dull that has no impact anymore it's a ways off quite quickly. It's like when you put on new clothes in the morning and it feels nice and fresh at first then you quickly stop noticing and because the brain goes well 'I can see what that is. That's not doing anything. I'll ignore that and focus on something which might be important' because the brain has limited resources in it to marshal them to what's come in. So what things were like music which have these significant properties, they have these like potent impacts on us and a lot of them come from our childhood too. Like you always seem to fondly remember the albums which shaped you and things like that. So these are things that have strong memory biases. They provoke emotions and emotion is a big part of what memories stay with us and which ones don't.

PC: We'll get past for in just a minute but let me ask you this. He has such a nice description of happiness in that song. He says it's like a room without a roof. So what does that suggest to you is happening for us when we hear that at the neurological level?

DEAN BURNETT: Yes to me that I know, as much as Pharrell is a talented man, I am not calling him to design my house at any point because I don't live in a very warm country. So it would be quite an unhelpful practice. But it's it is a sort of a sense of carefreeness, of just not being worried which a lot of people do think you do associate with happiness. When I did research the book like this there's so many different ways to be happy. You can be content. You can be relaxed. You can also be euphoric. You can be giddy with adrenalin and just excitement. But very very few people are giddily relaxed. You don't sit there in an armchair with a whiskey going 'yes this is amazing' because that would be weird. It's really hard to reconcile that. So obviously there are different things happening for various different types of happiness but a lot of it is also quoted, the research I found, things which sort of not really enhanced the reward in parts of the brain also dampened down or quiet the stressful parts of the brain, the pulse to detect threats. And these things help us make it make us feel more relaxed because we're not really anxious. We're not looking for threats or dangers or risks and this can be anything with a human brain. It's so powerful but backfires a bit because whereas most animals are scared of predators or lack of food or just strange noises, we are scared of things like: is the economy going to last long enough for me to keep a job? Am I going to able to afford a house boat? These are weird things to be scared of in the natural scheme of things but we can do that. So it's a blessing and a curse to think in such terms.

PC: I'm glad you brought up sort of like the wiggly nature of the word happy or happiness. What is the best definition that you've been able to come up with? What does happiness mean?

DEAN BURNETT: Well my own approach is to see what the data says, what the evidence says and try and extrapolate from that. And it will always be an incomplete picture because happiness is so subjective and it can be so different from person to person. Like I know people who love living in London for example; the big city the bustle, the craziness of it all, the noise, the excitement. And I'm from a very small rural community so that basically terrifies me the whole notion of it. I live in Cardiff in a nice little halfway houses sort of. It's a city but it's very small barely a city you know. I mean I think in Canadian terms it would count as a cull de sac. So that's the sort of thing. That's how I'm different to many my friends who live in the big cities. And so my own interpretation of what will be happiness is an umbrella term for all the different ways in which we can feel positive about something which has happened in our lives or something we've experienced or something we've even done or know or thought up. So it's a general broad spectrum term for all the ways in which we can feel positive and rewarded by things that have happened or that we've experienced.

PC: And when we're feeling those different kinds of positive, break down from what is happening in my brain when I'm feeling good.

DEAN BURNETT: Well again it depends on what the source of the good feeling is. I mean if it's a very powerful narcotic then or something rather illicit going on. At the most basic level, like a fat sort of putting that one part the brain which says that's where happiness comes from - I'd rather not do that because it's far more complex than that - but there's a part of the brain called the reward pathway, often called the dopamine reward pathway, because it uses dopamine neutrons and dopamine to function. And that's what you see so many articles and claims and theories say, in order to be happiness you must boost your dopamine levels. And that's a very oversimplified way of looking at it. That's like saying if you want to restore a Renaissance painting just add more green and I mean there may be elements of that but you need to be a bit more specific. But this reboard pathway is a small but really deeply embedded tract in the brain which suggests that it's so deep in the centre and down to the lower parts of the brain which must be very old and very established. A lot of other creatures have the same thing. And it's a sort of part of the brain which monitors everything that's going on and sort of tracked all the sensory info, and anything it registers as good or beneficial to us in our existence and our survival or whatever, it produces a feeling of reward. It's where the sensation of pleasure comes from but it's the way that the system is activated what the brain deems to be worthy of pleasure or not. That's where it gets very complex.

PC: Let me ask you about a couple of other terms that we hear quite popularly when it comes like being happy. You mentioned dopamine another neurotransmitter; endorphins. Where does that play into all of this?

DEAN BURNETT: Endorphins are really powerful and neurotransmitter or hormones sometimes they are released in different ways. Are the part the brain the brain that has an endorphin system or is often called the opiates system because these are the parts of the brain that heroin and morphine and those drugs they act on. But some estimates say that the natural endorphins, the ones in our head they are on average five times more powerful than heroin. And it's a really weird thought to think we have something five times more powerful than the most powerful narcotic stacked inside our skulls, just ready to be released as and when we want. But thankfully the brain isn't so generous with it which is good because you don't get a lot done if you think to yourself you are heroin high right now, and just clap drooling on the street. That's not really a recipe for a productive life. So the brain has these chemicals but the more powerful ones that I'm referring to, they do cause extreme pleasure. They do cause extremes like euphoria, bliss as someone in the middle of a heroin high. They have the sort of same brain activity as someone in the throes of orgasm which is something a bit more of an adult subject I do cover that a lot in the book, which is difficult because it's aimed at schoolchildren as well. So that was a strange experience. But yes so the brain uses these endorphins in times of extreme stress or physical pain like during childbirth they're deployed a lot. And people often reads like they get this huge rush when they run a marathon and they get the runner's high because their body is being so taxed that they didn't see any end in sight that they have this- the brain goes right I'm just shut down everything with this massive burst of pleasure, will deal with this later. And I think that's a similar thing happens in the old 80s action films. You see like the Schwarzenegger's and the Stallone’s in the middle of a gunfight and then being shot and stabbed and slapped and punched. They don't even flinch and they just looking all cool and hard, and then later on the token damsel is sponging on their wounds. They are going 'ooh, ahh'. And they show some vulnerability. But that is technically how it would work because in the middle of battle of the brains going right 'bad stuff is happening, can't afford to feel pain now. Just get through this and then we will sort of the injuries later'. It uses endorphins to do that essentially.

PC: What do you think, you see an old friend and you get into the conversation. Are you happy? We are always asking one another that. We're always evaluating our own happiness. What are the biggest misconceptions out there about happiness do you think?

DEAN BURNETT: Well I think that question is very telling because based on what I've learned about how the brain works. And this is something I get away with this because it sounds like I'm trying to tell everyone to stop being happy, which is really not what I'm doing at all. I'm not a professional killjoy, purely on an amateur basis and I do it for our own amusement. But it's the sort of thing like this idea that you have to be happy. Like you say are you happy? And if you say well not exactly, or say no then that implies there's something wrong, something amiss and that's not necessarily the case at all. Because we achieve happiness. It's something to work towards the brain makes us happy when we've done something good or something right. So if we're always happy then nothing really makes a difference in terms of feeling happy with nothing, or if you're happy with your work and your job. I'll say if I were to employ someone say like I'll give you 100 dollars to mow my lawn or I'll give you a hundred dollars to do nothing. They probably going to do nothing because the reward is the same either way. And the same is if we are default happy then we don't really have the motivation to do anything. So this idea of lasting default happiness I think is a misleading and often unhelpful one because that's not how the brain works. And it also suggests that there's no reason to be unhappy, which given the way the way the world works, there are plenty of reasons to be legitimately and honestly unhappy and doing something about that is part of the goal. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong or bad to be unhappy.

PC: So not to be cynical but chasing happiness, which many people out there- That's the thing like chasing happiness, you want to be happy. I just want to be happy. A bad plan, according to what's happening in our brain?

DEAN BURNETT: No, it's always good to pursue happiness as a goal. I think there's a quote I read somewhere that utopia is a lovely goal but as a situation it leads to stagnation. I think is the idea of when constant lasting happiness that isn't really a viable goal. It certainly happens when you marry someone that's supposed to be happily ever after. We've just had the royal wedding in the UK and it's all been all about that like fairy-tale of weddings and [unintelligible] Prince and therefore you sort of settled down and the idea that then you're happy constantly, from then on as if that means your life just stops when you get married. I know some people feel that way but that's more cynicism then anything. But it's this idea that once you've achieved this goal that that's it you're done then. You should be happy from then on and that's not how life or the brain works. The brain adapts to these things. You are still alive. You still have a life to live but now you've got a partner in it which is great, if you can make that work. It is making it work. It's actually putting an effort into it. So pursuing happiness is great but pursuing constant blasting happiness and assuming you can always be happy than you are, that's not necessarily a reasonable goal to hold, because it's unrealistic. It sets unrealistic expectations and you'll end up overlooking the things that do make you happy on a more realistic level or in pursuit of some something far more unrealistic.

PC: And when we look at the brain and those things like those endorphins, that dopamine, we are hugely variable and what makes us happy. So what accounts for these differences from the point of view of neuroscience?

DEAN BURNETT: Well it is so many things which can affect how a brain develops. People refer to the nature and nurture thing and that's going to be a massive part of it. But I think I use an example to say that if you consider the fact that every human being has individual unique fingerprints, not just patterns of lines on a little bit of skin and the of hand. So consider how variable the human brain must be with billions of neurons and trillions of connections all of which are different for each person. So your DNA is going to be a big part of it, your genes, the way you're brought up, even something as small as what sort of diet you ate when you're a child that can have a knock on effect. There's no real way to predict all of this. It's just a very normal part of life in that the way you develop, the way you grow up. There is a part in the book and about homes and things and people who have a constantly changing home as a child they tend to have a bit more trouble later on in life when they're trying to sort of maintain happiness and wellbeing because they didn't have a chance to put down roots, in terms of stay in one place and develop as a person with constant relationships and peer groups. And that's a really big part of your development a child; who you are around, who you are with. Other people play such a massive role in who we end up being and how we end up experiencing things that if you have a constantly changing group of people that's going to make a big difference to you.

PC: You know I bet you know someone we out there we're always like happy and I don't really see that happening you know maybe things that they're probably deeply saddened scientists fake it, but you do wonder are some people are just naturally happier than others? Are some of our brains just wired happier than others?

DEAN BURNETT: Yes it does seem that personality differences will play a big part in this. And I guess it depends on how you've developed, how you've grown up, what your background is, what your underlying genetics are. That's always been to be a big part of it and some people will be more inclined to have a more positive outlook. Some people have what's in psychology terms a locus of control. you feel like you’re in control of your life or all of events or you feel like you are at the mercy of others or the environment. So if you have an internal locus of control, you think you will control your life. These people tend to register as happier because when you feel you control your own life and you feel a bit more secure, you feel a bit more content with what you got. You feel you can make decisions. Whereas if you’ve got an external locust of control you feel like you are at the mercy of others and people like that. So that's a more stressful existence. So yes there are going to be different personality types. But I also think the human brain does seem to be pre-programmed isn't the right word, but you may have a strong inclination to presenting the best image of ourselves to the outside world. And you can see this is really taken up with social media especially things like Instagram like Facebook the Big Daddy is still a good source of this, that people always- now we have more control over how the world sees us when it's online. So we always present like you know the best possible scenario of ourselves. Like I'm doing this. I'm really happy about this. Look how good this. Look at my life isn't this brilliant. And though it feels like you're surrounded by constantly happy successful people as a result. So that tends to warp our own perceptions or think well then it feeds back into the whole being expected to be happy over time because it looks like anybody else is. So there must be something wrong with me because I'm not and no. That's also an unhelpful bias to introduced to modern life.

PC: Well let me just ask you about those happy people and pick on them for a bit. Is there a downside to being too happy?

DEAN BURNETT: It does seem to me that it's better in terms of the workplace. There's so much pressure these days on employees to sort of share the company vision and happy employees are supposed to be more productive apparently, called a lot of the stats. So even if the employers are the most cynical people in the world, if see their employees as worthless dust mites they still won't be happy because that's more profitable. But then also there is some studies which show that happy people and happy employees are actually less helpful overall because they are a bit more fragile. If something goes wrong they can't be lot harder because they expect to be happy, where someone is going on with being batted around by life a bit more they tend to be a bit more robust. And it does lead to another theory something called emotional competence. Just like how you use certain muscles they become more strong and they become more active and you can use them better, if you have a more wide range of emotional experiences in your life. So if you've had your ups and downs, you've had your highs and lows, you've had your heart ache as well as your happiness your brain's better able to deal with these things, these sensations and is better able empathise with other people who are experiencing them themselves. You can understand them better and that makes you a sort of a more well-rounded person who communicates better. And these all tend to feed into our overall happiness and wellbeing. So being happy all the time, constantly happy, has its downsides, a lot of them and that's another reason why we shouldn't really expect it of others.

PC: Thank you for that. That makes me feel much better.

DEAN BURNETT: It makes you feel happy, see?

PC: When you see we don't have to be happy all the time. It makes me feel happy. See how that works?

DEAN BURNETT: Therefore I'm shooting myself in the foot.

PC: And Dean Burnett, before I let you go. As I said earlier, there's a lot of research and we talk a lot about happiness these days. What do you want me to think about, from your book, walking away after this interview, what do you want me to think about happiness?

DEAN BURNETT: Well a couple of key points that I came to, which I arrived at after I finished writing it because what I didn't expect when I started. It's weird the extent to which other people play such a big role in our day to day happiness because we're such a social species. And our brains have evolved to facilitate so much communication and empathy and just awareness of the people around us that they form a much bigger part of our existence and ourselves than I ever expected even though I knew of the social importance. So other people play a big part in your happiness than you might think. So it's always good to make time for others that you care about, not everyone. Obviously there are plenty of awful people out there who will take advantage of that. So choose wisely. But also I think of the take home message I would like is that there are so many claims out there about happiness, how it works and they are all simple and they are all kind of very confidently but none of them seem to match up which suggests that a lot of them are just made up. I think my favorite one when I did some ground research was claim I saw an article saying the key to happiness is having 37 things to wear. And couldn't help but wonder about that study which produced that outcome. So it's just that if your house is burning don't just grab 37 items of clothing you'll be fine from then on.

PC: I'll go for my kids first, but thank you.

DEAN BURNETT: Apparently, partly you don't need to, you just need to have 37 items of clothes, which doesn't seem right. It doesn't sound plausible to me. But think about basically, what does make you happy and know that if other people are offering you the key to happiness or the secret happiness, treat it with a very great big pinch of salt because it's never that simple.

PC: Dean Burnett thank you for your time appreciate it.

DEAN BURNETT: Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

PC: OK bye bye. Dean Burnett is a neuroscientist and the author of The Happy Brain. We reached him in Cardiff UK. And next week on the show Anna Maria we'll be speaking with another neuroscientist about a very different story about how the brain works. Barbara K. Lipska is a renowned neuroscientist and in 2015 she was living a full and rewarding life as a director at the U.S. Institute for Mental Health. She was happily married with two loving and accomplished adult children, a triathlete. She was also in peak physical health. And then all of that fell apart. She descended into madness and the brain doctor became the patient.

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BARBARA LIPSKA: Now I've been starting mental illness all my professional life and I should have known it. I knew it at the level of theoretical level. I also saw patients. But something goes to actually live through this and realize that a brain tumor or a mental illness how much can change the brain and our behavior.

AMT: How has this changed how you view mental illness?

BARBARA LIPSKA: I compare it to reading about the foreign country and living in it and understanding it. You can read as much as you want and you will never understand it fully. I do now. I know how terrifying it is to the patient but also and probably mainly to the family and the loved ones to observe a person depart with the mind but physical body being still there. It's frightening. My family was suffering so much because they did see it and they didn't know how to change me. They didn't know how to persuade me that I'm not acting as usual. There is no better way to understand something than to visited and live through it and I would have never had this opportunity if I didn't experience what I did. I'm grateful that I survived. I could have died but I came out on the other side with the gift of knowing how would it feels.

PC: That said neuroscientist Barbara K. Lipska and you can hear her coming up next week on The Current.

Julie Crysler: Hello I'm Julie Crysler, one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Alison Masemann, Howard Goldenthal, Pacinthe Mattar, Idella Sturino, Ines Colabrese, Kristin Nelson, Willow Smith, John Chipman, Karin Marley, Kristian Jebsen and Noushin Ziafati. Thanks to our network producers Anne Penman in Vancouver, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg. Mary-Catherine McIntosh in Halifax, and Michael O'Halloran in Calgary. The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso and our digital producer is Padraig Moran.Our documentary editor is Joan Webber. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Shamhan Bhuiyan. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our senior producers are Geoff Turner in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

PC: And that is The Current for this Friday. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q. Guest host Ali Hassan is joined by one of the creators of SCTV, Andrew Alexander for a look back on his illustrious career. Remember you can always take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app. It is free from the App Store or Google Play. We are going to end the show and this week with some more happy music. This is OutKast with Hey Ya to help your get your brain to its happy place. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. Please tune in Sunday at noon to hear me on my show Out in the Open. Until then thanks for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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[Song: Hey Ya by OutKast]

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