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The Current Transcript for May 11, 2018

Host: Piya Chattopadhyay

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

When I was appointed FBI director in 2013 I understood that I serve at the pleasure of the president. I understood that I could be fired by the president for any reason or for no reason at all.

PIYA CHATTOPADHAYA: and for the past year, precisely why James Comey was let go by US President Donald Trump has been a key and critical question. President Trump has provided various responses to that question; Comey have lost public trust, lost the support of rank and file FBI members, that comey was a nut job. But many believe the firing of the seventh director of the FBI was purely politically motivated because of the Russia investigation. We've heard about the now famous private memos Comey wrote after privately meeting with President Trump in just a few moments. A conversation with James Comey about leadership and loyalty, politics and the personal costs and what the last year has really been like for him. And then, compared to our American cousins Canadians have long been considered understated, modest, even shrinking from the limelight. But does that stereotype still hold. And does success on the world stage today depend on putting on a different face.

SOUNDCLIP

We just have to have a little more a little more swagger as a country, a little more of an ability to promote and demonstrate how awesome we are.

PC: Prime Minister Trudeau seems to say so. Those comments this week have set off some swagger soul searching amongst Canadians. We'll dig into swagger and the Canadian identity in an hour. Hi I'm Piya Chattopadhyay and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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James Comey says Trump's presidency is like a 'forest fire' but after that comes a chance for regrowth

Guests: James Comey

SOUNDCLIP

I'll tell you I interviewed a number of extraordinary candidates for this job, all with sterling credentials, but what gave me confidence that this was the right man for the job wasn't his degrees and wasn't his resume. It was him talking to him and seeing his amazing family, a sense that this is somebody who knows what's right and what's wrong and is willing to act on that basis every single day.

PC: High praise from U.S. President Barack Obama for James Comey his new director of the ,FBI back in October of 2013. At the time when Mr. Comey was sworn in he commanded the respect of Republicans and Democrats alike. But since his dramatic firing by President Donald Trump, on year ago this week, James Comey has become one of the most polarized FBI directors in the agency's history. One thing that seems not to have changed since his ouster from the top law enforcement job in the U.S. is James Comey willingness to court controversy with what he says and what he does. He is currently reflecting on the lessons he's learned in leadership, ethical and otherwise, with his bestselling book A Higher loyalty Truth Lies and Leadership. James Comey is with me in our Toronto studio. Welcome to Canada.

JAMES COMEY: Great to be with you.

PC: Thank you. I'm sure that there are a lot of words that would come to your mind and a lot of other people's minds to describe the past 12 months or so for you. Certainly it's been unusual. So first of all, how the heck are you?

JAMES COMEY: I am doing well thank you. I'm probably getting shorter. I'm doing fine. That great family that President Obama mentioned sustains me makes me laugh makes fun of me and they're the center of my life.

PC: And when you hear President Obama introducing you there as the FBI director what do you think about it? What's going through your mind?

JAMES COMEY: It seems like a lifetime ago. That's actually the first time I've heard those words since I heard them in person that day in the Rose Garden. So part of me smiles and thinks it's all his fault that I was in this job. But I'm also grateful that he chose me. I didn't expect it because I had been a Republican appointee and he surprised me with his vision of the job which matched mine so I'm grateful for it overall.

PC: You are, five years later looking back.

JAMES COMEY: I really am and I'm sad that I'm not part of that organization, the FBI, anymore especially its people and its mission. But I'm grateful for the opportunity I got to be part of something that was deeply meaningful to me and I think was useful to the organization and the country. Yes.

PC: What does that feel like for you?

JAMES COMEY: It's kind of a melancholy slightly disorienting feeling of sadness. Like i'm not sad that I'm away from picky political people. I'm sad that I'm away from a group of people who've devoted their lives to trying to help others, rescue others and protect others. This week marks a year since I was fired and it brought back again that sense of sadness that I'm away from these great people. And I don't tweet much but I tweeted a picture from when I was speaking to the employees of the FBI telling them that I was thinking of them because I know despite what you may have heard there's a whole lot of sadness inside the organization as well.

PC: I'm glad you brought up the tweet because as you say, you don't tweet much but you did on Wednesday with a picture of many employees of the bureau. Here's what you said. You said 'missing the people of the FBI today. Thank you for your commitment to truth and for all the good you do for this country'. What did you mean by the word truth?

JAMES COMEY: Truth is the central value in the FBI and I hope in my country and this great country that it matters, that it's a real thing and we measure our leaders by their distance from it. They always stray in some way from it where we measure them by that. What's amazing about the FBI is the truth is at the center of every day. We've got to find the truth. We've got to tell the truth we've got to live the truth and if we don't we hold ourselves accountable to that. It's important to stress now because in the United States that touchstone of truth is getting overwhelmed, almost like a wave hitting a sandcastle at the beach. There's a risk it will melt away if we're not careful. When our president lies so much we can become numb to it. And so in a way my tweet was a reminder to the people of the FBI why it's cool to be in the FBI and especially the centrality of that value. And a reminder that also that should be a central value in our lives.

PC: So I thought I might be interpreting when I read that tweet thinking is this an indirect run at the president United States? But you're going to say no, not by put it out there to say something about truth and how I see it.

JAMES COMEY: Yes it's not a run at the president. It's actually a run at our entire national culture. Because we are all becoming numb to the melting of that central value of that truth. We are all overwhelmed with falsehoods and there's a risk we will stop measuring our leaders by their distance from that truth. George Bush spoke falsely when he said there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Barack Obama spoke falsely when he said you can keep your doctor if you like your doctor under my health care plan. And then they spent the rest of their tenure, and maybe the rest of their lives especially for George, Bush trying to explain their connection to that central touchstone to that truth. It wasn't a lie I intended this I thought that but we never stop measuring them to that touchstone because that's all we are really as a people. If we ever stop and there's a risk we will stop, I worry we've lost something essential. The word truth is directly connected to why you're here in Toronto. You're here to give a speech in your book talks about ethical leadership. So what is how do you define that? Like what does that term mean to James Comey?

PC: To me it means leadership that is something beyond just being the boss of people right. That's what it means to be a leader. To be an ethical leader means to make decisions and to lead those people with ethical values foremost in your mind and in their lives in their workplace. The truth, integrity, fairness things like that that guide ethical people should guide an ethical leader. And lastly an ethical leader thinks about the meaning in the work and how do we connect people to it. How do I make sure they understand it and are passionate about that? But when you look at your country and who is getting elected arguably in the White House but to other positions as well in government. Do you think your country America really wants ethical leadership?

JAMES COMEY: I think it does at its core and one of the contributions I hope to make small, having been fired, is to try to remind Americans that actually that commitment to ethical leadership and to those values is the center of our country and it's really all we are. We fight about guns and taxes and immigration and we always will but we have something in common that we're forgetting and especially those who don't vote are forgetting. And so what I hope to do is tell people, look we'll get back to fighting about all those important policy issues but we have to stop and remember if we lose those central values we're done. So I think there's a group of people who understand it, are engaged. There's a large group of people who frankly aren't focused on the danger of the erosion of those ethical values.

PC: Because there are people in the United States, a lot of them, that might say nothing really matters any more in Donald Trump's America in terms of truth and falsehoods, that there are no consequences for lying. Are they right?

JAMES COMEY: Well the final exam is yet to come. I would expect obviously is an investigative process going on that focuses on finding the truth in certain particular areas. But I think the final exam for the United States on those values will come in the next presidential election. And I hope people will stand up and say you know what I may disagree with you about policy issues but I care deeply that our leaders reflect the values that are at the core of this country. We hold these truths to be self-evident. One of our foundational documents truth is the fourth word. America has always been an aspiration, always trying to improve like Canada. But we have at our center this set of values and I think the test of that will come in the next election.

PC: In the political context as it pertains to ethical leader leadership and maybe well beyond the political leadership power itself is often a corrupting factor in government. So can you really have ethical leadership when power corrupts?

JAMES COMEY: You can look everyone who takes a position of power risks losing a piece of themselves. One of the great heroes of America is Abraham Lincoln. He got elected in 1860 in part by leading some of his voters to believe he was not going to seek to abolish slavery and convinced a bunch of others of his voters that he was. He made a compromise. He was misleading in order to achieve his goals. The question is, okay, that's a moral stain of some sort, what did he do after that or around that? There are no perfect leaders. You can't be rigid. You can't be doctrinaire in a pluralistic democracy. But the difference to an ethical leader and not ethical leaders that ethic leader never loses sight of those North Stars of the values that they're aspiring to be measured against, which is what makes Lincoln great and so many others leaders great. It's what worries me about our current leadership that this president doesn't seem to have any outside reference points any nor stars outside of self-interest.

PC: Were you an ethical leader of the FBI.

JAMES COMEY: I tried. Like all leaders I was imperfect but I tried really hard through some nightmarish situations to make the decisions focusing first on those higher things and one of the values of this institution, what's the long run? I'm always trying to take and urged people to take the grandchildren test. How will I explain this to my grandchildren what I did here today? And it allows you to- it has helped me a lot to rise above the anger and the passion of the moment. And like I said I'm a perfect leader but I really did try with a group of people around me who helped make me better my work family, like my private family makes me better to make decisions focused on those values.

PC: What were your blemishes? You've had a year really to sit down and look at James Comey look back at who you were as an FBI leader. So where were the imperfections for you?

JAMES COMEY: I don't know how much time you have. There were a bunch guy blew a bunch of personnel decisions that I'm not going to talk about because they're about people and I did a number of other dumb things. I'll give you one small example I caused a real problem with the government of Poland when I was giving a speech about the Holocaust and I casually said something about Poland. I didn't mean to make it about Poland but that was me not being thoughtful enough about how others might react to me. We have an encryption debate that's still ongoing in the United States I entered it in a stupid way, in an impulsive way. I saw an ad where Google and Apple were advertising phones that law enforcement couldn't enter and instead of being thoughtful I acted impulsively and I launched myself into that debate, is a bunch of other things like that. But in the main the big ones that have caused so much pain even with reflection a whole lot of introspection. I think we did those in a thoughtful way.

PC: I want to take a step back before you became the director of the FBI. You were a prosecutor in New York and you went after mob bosses and you have said that President Trumps leadership style reminds you of a mob boss. I can think of all the pop culture mob bosses. But tell me what you mean by that. When you say President Trump reminds you of a mob boss.

JAMES COMEY: I don't mean that he's out sticking up shopkeepers and extorting money from gamblers. I mean instead that I kept being struck - and the first one has popped to my head I pushed it away because it seemed too dramatic - I kept being struck by the comparison. A mob boss. The leadership is all about me, the leader. What do you bring to me? How are you serving me? What's your loyalty to me personally? Sometimes at the cost of your life there are no external reference points. I was struck by the same thing by President Trump. Like I said I first pushed it away but it kept coming back. It's about him. What do you do for me? How are you helping me? Instead of about all the higher values that you would expect the leader of a country like ours to focus on beyond and above self.

PC: So let's go to the meeting, the loyalty meeting, the infamous famous meeting between you and the president where President Trump asked you for your loyalty. I guess you know the first question about, not about the meeting, but about the question that you were asked and when we think about ethical leadership and leadership shouldn't a leader be able to ask or perhaps demand loyalty from the people who worked for them?

JAMES COMEY: There is the difference between expecting and asking. I think ethical leaders build environments in which their people literally love them because they help them find meaning in their work. They help them get better. They care deeply about them and then the people who are led reciprocated. So expecting it if you do it well you would expect people to care deeply about each other and you as their leader. The asking is the problem. Because what that does is it merely pushes it down from the higher values that we're trying to center the workplace on down to what can you do for me. It becomes transactional and solely about those internal reference points that dominate the mob type leader.

PC: So it's not about the asking per se it's about the ask.

JAMES COMEY: Right and what that ask reflects that I care about you only insofar as you give me what I want. You bring me what I need. That's transactional that's a lower level of loyalty. A leader who focuses on the kind of values that we all want our bosses to reflect serves his or her people, cares about them and in return gets loyalty and love. It never has to be asked for. And in asking for it you actually betray the values that you'd like that leader to be focused on.

PC: You lead the most important law enforcement agency in the United States of America. And now the FBI is under constant weekly sometimes daily attack by President Trump and his Republican allies in Congress. So when you see and you talked about maybe - this is unfair term - but love affair with the FBI or at least the people there. When you see the leader of America and others undermine or at least some would say undermine the agency you love so much. What do you think about it? What do you see?

PC: I worry. I worry about that institution which is part of a broader institution, the Department of Justice in the United States, which are servants of a bigger value which is the rule of law in the United States along with the truth really all we are as a people. And when I see the leader of the country constantly attacking that rule of law. I worry for the future and what I hope people do is think about their grandchildren and how were they going to explain, specially Republican leaders, that you were here and you saw that happening not the president criticizing a particular decision even criticizing a particular prosecutor but attacking the entire institution and running it down. And then while he's at it also attacking our judiciary. I don't know how you explain that to your grandchildren. What was the trade you made that justified? That you got a tax cut? Really? Tax cuts are going to come and go. All we are as a country is that set of values. So it makes me worry.

PC: You know that Rudolph Giuliani is now part of the president's team, former New York mayor. He as you also know has called the FBI agents who raided Trump lawyer Michael Cohen's office. These are his words storm troopers. Why are Republicans comparing FBI agents to Nazis?

JAMES COMEY: For the life of me I cannot explain that. And they have to realize someday that gun will be pointed at them right someday. Different parties will be in power and they should close their eyes and imagine how they'd feel if a future Democratic president were announcing its private citizens should be in jail, that the FBI was operating like the Nazi storm troopers. It would make their heads explode. Someday they'll be on the receiving end of that. No God willing no because that will have meant in the long run. We have destroyed that value but I hope they will think about all those things and realize what a big mistake that is.

PC: So when I'm sitting at home and when critics of President Trump are sitting at home or the office you're looking at Twitter and they see a tweet like that or a statement like that come across the news some people's heads blow off. When you're at home seeing this on whatever news channel you watch you see it and you say, when you see like a Rudolph Giuliani saying the FBI is like a bunch Storm Troopers, is your head blowing? Like what is your reaction? I get that you're calm because you're a former FBI director but are you like what do you feel? And you want to chuck things at the TV?

JAMES COMEY: No I don't. I don't know what's going on with Rudy Giuliani, why he says the things he says, so I sort of put that aside. It just deepens my worry about the long term rule of law in the United States and deepens my frustration that more people, especially Republicans, aren't saying you know what we ought to knock this off. Yes they're important policy gains we hope to get. But I want to be look my grandkids in the face and say, I stood for something and I protected something that has been the spine of this country since its founding. And they should feel pretty good about themselves. I don't see that. And so deepens my worry. Now my first thought is to check it because, like, can that be right? Really? And so to go and check the source to see if that was really said. And my next thought is can I make some contribution here? Or should I say something? And I tried - as we talked about earlier - I try not to tweet a lot but I didn't see anybody else in the executive branch of the United States government speaking out when the president's lawyer was comparing FBI agents to Nazi storm troopers. So I thought you know what? Shame on them but shame on me if I don't say something because I know the New York FBI .I know those people. They're flawed like all people. But they are the antithesis of storm troopers. This is the rule of law in operation, in action. And so I thought I ought to say something and not sure I make a big difference. But I thought that was my next thought I ought to speak.

PC: You have said that you are against the politicization of the FBI but when you look at past directors; J Edgar Hoover going after dissidents or L. Patrick Gray's involvement with Watergate hasn't the FBI always been a political police force a political force?

JAMES COMEY: I don't think in the sense that I think you mean it. I think it has been in this sense it's called upon to investigate politicians of both parties. And as I used to say to the workforce sometimes look the cool thing about being the FBI is that we play a lot of our games on national television. That's also the bad thing because the whole world is watching us where we constantly find ourselves especially in polarizing times like this is in the middle of things where a whole lot of people are going to be angry and accuse us of things because we're doing our job. So it's inevitable that you are dragged onto the political playing field. I don't accept the notion that the organization has always been a Political organization or that it is now for sure.

PC: Last week the New York Times printed a list of questions that Special Counsel has for President Trump if he were to be interviewed as part of the rush investigations. Quite a few, I think there's about four or five in this 21 questions relate to you and your firing. Have you seen those questions?

JAMES COMEY: I've seen it in the newspaper.

PC: Okay. So what did you think when you saw the questions Robert Mueller wants to ask the president as the questions pertain to you?

JAMES COMEY: My first reaction was those are not coming from Robert Mueller so I actually can't rely on the fact that those are his questions.

PC: What does that I mean?

JAMES COMEY: I'm highly confident those were not released to the media by the special counsel's operation. So they are an echo of something. And so it's someone recounting a conversation that was had at an earlier time and so I don't know how much to rely upon them. So with that big caveat it didn't surprise me that there will be questions they're trying to explore the president's state of mind in his interactions with me. The reason for that state of mind being central that's the reason I say when people say was their obstruction of justice I say I don't know. Could be. But it would turn upon what was inside the person's head and I can't see that. I'm a witness to the interactions but I can't say what was in the president's head. So it doesn't surprise me that some of the questions, if those are the special prosecutor's questions, was aimed at that kind of thing.

PC: You are a former Republican [unintelligible].

JAMES COMEY: Yes. I am a nothing now.

PC: You are a Nothing now.

JAMES COMEY: Just James Comey from Nebraska.

PC: The other James Comey.

JAMES COMEY: Yes the other James Comey, but I am not a Democrat or a Republican.

PC: Republicans describe themselves as a law and order party the party of personal responsibility. So as a long time Republican no longer a Republican. What happened in your estimation?

JAMES COMEY: I don't know. In the short term it looks like a fair number of people have made a trade maybe without realizing what they were trading away. And first of all they were faced with the whole country was very poor choices as a country in 2016. And our nation saw the least trusted and most unpopular people in the history of polling run against each other. And there's a great deal of frustration about the political system and globalization and lots of other things in the United States. But I think in the main what we see happening the Republican Party is a failure to ask the grandchildren question which would bring right to their near field of vision the values that Republicans have long said they stood for but are not acting like they stand for them today. And I'm optimistic that both parties and United States will step back enough to realize what it is that unites us and we'll have a moment of reset in a way. And then we'll get back to fighting like cats and dogs about all kinds of stuff. But a reset focused on those values.

PC: I want to ask you about two things that happened this week in your country. The first happened yesterday Thursday when we saw those three American citizens come off the plane that were being held by North Korea. And your president has hailed it as a big victory in his role in it is he not a good leader for being able to return home three American citizens from North Korea.

JAMES COMEY: It's a great thing that anytime someone held in an unlawful captivity is freed. It's probably too complicated an answer for me a question for me to give you a thoughtful answer sitting here. No doubt it's a good thing. But whether what it says about leadership in the longer term given all the other I was actually just about to say a pox on the ice. I'm not trying to patronize Canadian friends but all the other things in motion there. I don't think off the cuff I can give you a thoughtful answer.

PC: The second one is to do what the CIA has also come under assault by the Trump administration. There's been a lot of controversy over the nomination of Gina Haspel to lead the CIA. Confirmation hearings this week. And for those who have been paying attention she ran a black site where torture was practiced and she supported the destruction of tapes showing that abuse shorts that kind of background disqualify a candidate from leading an organization as important as the CIA.

JAMES COMEY: Now that's a great question because the answer is I'm not talking about Gina and look at her case in particular but I don't think as a rule you'd want to say never. It would depend upon your evaluation of the person as they are today and how they think about and articulate their role and what they've learned from their role. I struggled as I lay it on my book with how the Bush administration should think and act on the question of so-called enhanced interrogation so torture and what the law provided what's appropriate policy. And I'm sure I didn't do it perfectly. So I don't think you'd be fair to say never, you'd want to ask a lot of searching questions so.

PC: You have become as you well know a very polarizing figure in the United States. The president personally attacks you on Twitter. You have thrown some barbs back at him. But when I leave here today people will hear this interview and they will say what's James Comey really like? And so what toll this is why I say that because I want to ask you this. What toll has that kind of I don't know if it's anger, James Comey, but what does it kind of toll has that anger taken on you and your family life, your personal life?

JAMES COMEY: It's probably hard for people to believe. Not much. Because you'd have to know my wife and children. If you did you'd understand why that's true. Because they're very grounded people. And Dad is not the center of our family which is always the way we've wanted it. They're funny, they're irreverent. They follow it enough to check on me make sure I'm doing okay, and tease me about what I'm wearing or something like that and then pivot back to the things that we should care about which are the things going on in their lives. So not much. It bugs my wife. Patrice watches more than I do and I think she - I don't know how many people watch Game of Thrones but there's a character Game of Thrones that keeps a list and keeps saying it aloud of people that she's going to kill - I think Patrice has that list and it doesn't reveal it to me but she seems to focus on a little bit more than I do. I'm somebody who can't remember whether some was mean to me in 1995 or 2003. She seems to remember those things which is great because I can outsource that.

PC: So Patrice has her own memo that she's keeping.

JAMES COMEY: Yeah she does. But that ability to laugh is the center of our lives and allows us not to take each other too seriously and not to take events too seriously at the same time to worry deeply. Donald Trump will pass from the scene in the United States. The question is what have we learned from this time and how have we made ourselves better as a result of some of the painful lessons of this time?

PC: So what we know about your Patrice your wife and daughter daughters that they supported Hillary Clinton. And in fact they took part in the women's march after the inauguration of President Trump. Has your like daughter - and I don't know how this daughter is, but has she ever said to you 'listen Dad I wish you hadn't sent that letter to Congress 11 days before the election. I wish you wouldn't have done that. Why did you do that? Huh?

JAMES COMEY: I'd definitely said the first part because I've said the same thing. I wish I wasn't in that situation. What a nightmare. I wish Anthony Weiner had never had a laptop never been around at all. But they understood because they followed more closely a lot of people, they understood how trapped we were that the FBI had two choices and they were both really bad, one catastrophic one just plain really bad. And so we chose the least bad. They got that and because they've helped me edit the book and I've spent a lot of time - my four girls and my son - reading it, they get it. And so they don't feel, nor do I, as painful as it is, that sense that 'ah. You screwed that up Dad' or 'you should have taken the other choice' because I don't see how you could reasonably take the other choice that we faced.

PC: Do you regret it.

JAMES COMEY: You know. I regret the situation deeply. It was a nightmare for me it's still is but I honestly can't say that I would do it differently if I had to go back. That's in a way that adds to the pain because sometimes you can say you know what if I'd only known this thing I'd have done it differently in some ways that relieves pain as odd as that sounds. I don't see any outlet for it. I see even traveling back in a time machine faced with the same choices I would and the rest of the leadership also agreed have to do the same thing. Now we've got a couple more minutes with his picture.

PC: Give me a couple of minutes if you would. Some academics and political pundits are worried about the Trump presidency that it represents America and entering an authoritarian phase. And maybe that's too big of a word for some not for others in terms of its history. How would you say the democratic institutions that were set up to be a watchdog on power in the United States have functioned during the Trump presidency?

JAMES COMEY: This is an answer that may surprise you. Surprisingly well the the institutions in the United States especially those centered on justice are really hard to change. Hard to change when you're a leader like I was trying to change the emphasis on diversity to improve that. But the good news is that inertia, that difficulty in changing, is the ballast for America. No president serve long enough to screw it up. I hear this term deep state. That's nonsense. It's no deep state. But there is a deep culture that runs to the law enforcement community, the justice community, intelligence community and the military services in the United States, a commitment to the rule of law and a distain for politicians because they sometimes talk and weasly ways, a hatred for weaselness. Well that that culture is so deep that it steadies the ship. And again if a president were going to serve for 20 years or 25 years you might worry but we will be OK. What I'm trying to be part of is making sure we have a conversation today so that we emerge from this period which I like into a forest fire. There'll be lots of growth in all kinds of cool things but so that we minimize the damage and accelerate the healing Comeyng out of this.

PC: We started our conversation with hearing President Obama welcoming you to the position of FBI director. I don't want to go back in time per se but say James Comey of 2013 was standing in front of [unintelligible] as he begins his career as director. What warning do you give him? What do you say to him?

JAMES COMEY: I say drive over to the State Department and tell Hillary Clinton she ought to be using the State Department system for communications. I don't know even in hindsight. I mean there's small things I would warn me about but I knew in 2015 when that e-mail case was opened my deputy director looked at me and said with a wry smile 'you know you're totally screwed right?' And I smiled and said 'Yup. Nobody gets out alive'. Given the state of America and its vicious polarization, to be investigating one of the two candidates for president of United States during the election, we were going to make a whole lot of people angry. Now it turns out I didn't know we would make both sides of the partisan divide angry but I don't know how the FBI could do other than that. That's what I mean by sometimes you're stuck. You're playing a game on national television or you can do is play the game the way it's supposed to be played. People in the stands, people on television are going to be angry at you. Okay. In the long run to finish with the grandchildren question, you look at your grandkids in the face.

PC: Never my question. You just keep bringing it up.

JAMES COMEY: My reference. My Grandchildren reference. Did you ask about the grandchildren? But it is to be able to look him in the face and say look you can agree or disagree with the decisions they were made in a thoughtful ethical way.

PC: You got grandchildren?

JAMES COMEY: No. That's like keep talking about them.

PC: Two things, one thing. Former FBI director, former prosecutor, husband, guy who was fired from one of the most important jobs in America, a guy who the president doesn't like very much, guy wrote a book. What's next?

JAMES COMEY: I'm teaching I taught this year at Howard University in Washington and I'm teaching starting in August at my school, William and Mary where I went to college teaching a course in leadership and ethics and their public policy program. A three credit course so no joke. I would actually be working hard on it and travel around and try and facilitate that conversation I talked about to focus on values. I talk a lot and I think I'll be a happy person.

PC: Last question. As a Canadian- I am Canadian have to ask you this. Your book begins with quote. Much has been made about it because it comes from Canadian artist singer Jann Arden. The quote says 'to not think of dying is to not think of living'. Are you a Jann Arden fan?

JAMES COMEY: No although I know who she is. My kids knew who she was. Americans would say she's the Celine Dion of Canada. And then pause and say 'wait a minute, Celine Dion is of Canada'. She is a- I was looking for someone who could talk about the need to reflect on the end of life. And I found one of her songs I kept looking elsewhere and I couldn't find anybody who captured it better than that. And so I wouldn't say I'm a fan of Jann Arden but I thought she captured exactly what I was trying to say in that point in the book.

PC: Do you listen to music?

JAMES COMEY: Yes a ton.

PC: Okay What's the soundtrack? If I'm like Hey James Comey told me to listen to a song, what am I going to listen to?

JAMES COMEY: That's a [unintelligible] question. Because it's an eclectic collection I listen...

PC: Give me four.

JAMES COMEY: I listen to a lot of country music songs and I talk about one in the book. One of my favorites is a guy named Billy Currington who sings God is Great Beer is Good People are Crazy. That sort of sums up a lot of my view of the world. I'm a big Bruce Springsteen song. My favorite song, actually of all time for reasons I can't even explain to my children, is Bruce Springsteen's song Racing in the Street. There's something haunting about that melody and I love all other kinds of music. And one of my daughters getting married this July and she's already told me what song we're going to dance to and it's a Celine song.

PC: Celine Dion.

JAMES COMEY: Because You Love Me and I'll be crying like a baby. I don't know. I got to for, but my kids- I tried to keep up with what they read and I listen to and read. And so I get introduced to all kinds of stuff I know a lot of Taylor Swift and a lot of Beyonce and so it's fun to be engaged in their lives in that way.

PC: It's good to meet you.

JAMES COMEY: Thank you. Thanks for the conversation.

PC: Have a good time in Canada.

JAMES COMEY: Thank you.

PC: James Comey was the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 2013 until being fired by President Trump one year ago this week. His new book is called A Higher Loyalty. James Comey was with me in our Toronto studio. Well it has been a pretty crazy year for the former director of the FBI. And as you heard him say this song sums up his view of the world. Here is People are Crazy by Billy Currington.

[sc].

[Song: People are Crazy by Billy Currington].

PC: That's Billy Currington with his song People are Crazy and it one one of the songs that is the former FBI Director James Comey's favorite. I'm Chattopadhyay and you were listening to the Friday edition of The Current and on Monday Anna Maria will be bringing you a story that will be of special interest to any romance writers out there. The Toronto Public Library is looking for a new writer in residence and this time they're in the hunt for a romance writer. We'll hear why and we'll ask whether romance deserves more respect than it actually gets in the book world. Here's Toronto librarian Denise Drapkin and a few published romance writers. We reached out to.

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VOICE 1: I absolutely don't think that romance writing gets the respect that it deserves. It's undervalued. It's under estimated. It's judged negatively by everybody who doesn't read it. And so what we wanted to do was we wanted to embrace and publicize it because one should never be judged negatively for whatever one reads or writes.

VOICE 2: I'm Kathleen Tucker and I have been writing romance for seven years now. A lot of the time in events that I attend with other authors who are not writing in romance, you know the conversations kind of die when they ask 'Hey what do you write?' And I say romance and then and then it kind of stops there. So I think there's definitely a lot of misconception in the industry.

VOICE 3: Hi Susanna scarcely up in writing romance novels or romantic fiction published for over 25 years now. Do I think romance gets the respect it deserves? No absolutely not. I dont think it ever has that. I dont think fiction written by women traditionally, historically has ever got the respect it deserves. And I think that goes back to the women in the 60s hundreds who were writing fairy tales and the bishops were trying to close them down and saying it was terrible that women were writing.

VOICE 4: Meghan Crane. I also write Caitlin Cruz. I've been writing romance novels of one sort or another for 15 years and I'm currently working on my first novel. I think the romance genre is frankly the best. I know I'm biased but I don't understand why we're all so opposed to hope and romance novels are hope. They are redemption. They are ways for people to go through a journey with characters that will always end well. I don't know why people are afraid of that. I think that it's frankly what the world needs.

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PC: We will have more on the merits of the romance genre and its place in a MeToo world that is coming up Monday on The Current. And if you're a reader and fan of romance novels or if they turn you off altogether do let us know why. You can e-mail us by going to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent, and on Twitter. We're @TheCurrentCBC. All right. Coming up get ready for a wide ranging panel discussion on the topic of swagger and Canadian identity. Yes we are talking swagger in our next half hour. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. You're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. And we'll be right back.

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Is 'swagger' an inherently un-Canadian trait?

Guests: Jennifer Heil, Michael Katchen, Emer O’Toole

PC: I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. And you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

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We just have to have a little more- a little more swagger as a country. A little more of an ability to promote and a 1231207491600 nd demonstrate how awesome we are. We don't often do that. We don't do that enough.

PC: Well that was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Tuesday speaking at the annual conference of the Canadian e-commerce giant Shopify. And by calling on more Canadian companies to show a little more swagger he may or may not have known exactly what he was doing. Setting off a national conversation on whether it is nobler and more Canadian to swagger or not to swagger.

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Will the Prime Minister show some global swagger and take a public position in support of Taiwan joining the World Health Assembly or will he remain silent due to his admiration for basic dictators.

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PC: A few times in this question period the Conservatives seem to have an issue with the idea of swagger, the idea of Canadians being strongly proud on the world stage, Canadians understanding [unintelligible] on the world stage being investments in new technologies are things to be proud of here in Canada. Apologize for swaggering. That was the swagger question following the Prime Minister into question period. We decided to take the question to the streets of Winnipeg where we asked just what people think it means to swagger, and whether Canadians have got it.

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VOICE 1: I define Swagger as confidence and - I was going to say cockiness but that sounds bad

VOICE 2: Pride, but not full of yourself.

VOICE 3: It's like a special Moxie or kind of - I hate to say- Je ne sais quoi.

VOICE 4: I don't have any swagger [laughing].

VOICE 5: If I had to give swagger advice I would say 'C'mon Canada just love yourself you're cool. It's okay. You're not. You're not nerdy. It's ok'.

VOICE 6: If I had to think of anybody with swagger it'd be Drake.

VOICE 7: Maybe Ryan Reynolds.

VOICE 8: I don't know I want to see Neil Young for some reason. Neil Young just played his music did what he was going to do. It was different, it was weird but he just kept doing it, right. That's what a swagger is.

VOICE 9: On the swagger meter. I'm going to say Tommy Douglas which is not a very cool answer maybe but he did this thing and what he did was extremely important and the swagger came naturally.

PC: Well since the Pandora's Box of Canadian swagger has been opened we have brought together a panel of people from various fields and perhaps varying degrees swagger to share their thoughts. Michael Katchen is the founder and CEO of Wealthsimple an online investment platform he is with me here in our Toronto studio. Jennifer Heil won the gold medal in mogul skiing at the 2006 Winter Olympics and the silver in Vancouver in 2010. She's now the vice president of sport development at VIA's sport an organization that supports amateur sports in British Columbia. She is in Vancouver and Emer O'Toole is a professor of Irish performance studies at Concordia University. She's also a writer and cultural commentator for The Guardian. She's in our Montreal studio. Hello hello hello. Hi everyone. Michael Katchen. Let's begin with you. What does swagger mean to you? What's your definition of it?

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I think Canadians have this awesome trait of being humble and I think we often confuse that for being apologetic, not wanting to admit what we're good at and be proud of it and pursue it. And I think the Prime Minister was right. Regardless of your political views that we have an opportunity and an obligation I think especially when it comes to the technology field which is where I'm involved to take a stand. I think it's one of the key pillars of our long term prosperity as a nation is to build globally successful companies that want to win.

PC: And so where does swagger fit into that for you?

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I think it comes in the ambition to win. I talk often about what Canadians need more of when starting companies in particular is this concept of naïve ambition. The idea that we can build companies that change the world. I spent a few years in San Francisco and you have loads of that you know half the people think they can change the world. Half the people are actually doing it. And I think we need more of that in Canada so that we actually build companies that are long lasting, employ tons of Canadians and build our long term prosperity as a nation.

PC: Jennifer what about you when you think of the word swagger and what it means, what's your definition of it?

JENNIFER HEIL: Well I did a little bit of a complicated relationship with Swagger. It's something I had to learn to build. It didn't come naturally to me. I would define it as having a belief in your success. It's not an expectation of success but it's that belief. And in sport it's definitely the most important factor as to whether or not you're going to achieve your objectives, especially in a sport like Mogel skiing where you have to put yourself out there and you have to take massive risks every time you go down that mountain. And I saw it firsthand in how it transformed our country in 2010 and how it transformed sport and our institutions. Because in 2010 we said we want to own the podium and that was oh not Canadian. It was a lot of discomfort around that. But we believed in that success and we built the institutions to support it.

PC: We'll talk more about that but I remember when that came out at that time also have this debate about should we have Canadian swagger, and I think the word smug was thrown around a lot. We'll talk more about how it all fits into the Olympic role in the sporting world in just a minute but let me bring Emer O'Toole into the conversation. Emer hello. What is your definition of swagger?

EMER O'TOOLE: Well I didn't read the Oxford English Dictionary in advance coming here. But however like it kind of connotes to me a sort of showy-offy. I liked that word smug, attitude towards things that might not actually relate to the substance that's underneath the style. I think there's a kind of like an idea of cheat and facade about swagger it's all about what you're putting out there but not necessarily about what you've got. And I think that maybe Canadians should be proud that they don't have swagger that they had to kind of hang back and understate things. And they present you with kind of realistic expectations and often then when you actually get to the thing that the Canadian is telling you is just going to be you know a nice dinner or nice that. They put in loads of effort. It's amazing that you're pleasantly surprised. That's one of the things I love about you guys.

PC: I did look it up. I don't have the definition of me but as I recall it is something to the effect of swagger; confidence with arrogance. You know confidence with this air of arrogance. So Michael Katchen when you say look we need more of this in the Canadian business world, especially in the tech world, especially on the international stage, when you dissect that why do you think we as Canadians don't have swagger in the world?

MICHAEL KATCHEN: You know I'm not sure I love that definition of confidence with arrogance. I often think that the best quality for Canadians is confident but humble. And to me when I think about that I think on the podium example that Jennifer was giving is exactly that for the first time I saw Canadians say we want to win at something. And I remember when Jennifer won the medal and how much pride Canadians felt at winning something and this belief that we could actually do it. And I remember you know the pride that Canadians felt when we had technology companies like BlackBerry and remnants day that was the most exciting company in the world to work for.

PC: So when you talk to other people in the industry in Canada what do you see? What's your analysis why we don't have Swagger? I'm not saying not everyone but a lot of us.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I think we confuse this idea of humility and arrogance and Canadians feel content to just kind of fly under the radar. We don't want to step on too many toes. We want to really ruffle feathers when it comes to building businesses. We're content usually to build Canadian companies. And the reality is the world is changing too fast. You know global companies are making a massive impact. Canada actually is in a wonderful position today where we are a world leader in all sorts of fields like AI and machine learning, quantum computing. We have enormous amounts of capital flowing in to actually build really great companies. I think it's our time that we need to do something with that and it's incumbent on us to have this naive belief that we can do it. Jennifer was talking about you know that belief that you can do it is I think the first step because if you don't believe that you can win if you don't believe you can be at the top of the podium you never give it a try.

PC: So Jennifer Heil as an athlete I think he said you know at first swagger wasn't her natural fit as a Canadian. How did you develop your swagger?

JENNIFER HEIL: I actually trained it. I worked with a sports psychologist and I purposely built this idea of confidence and I think it is important how you define it. And to me that's really what I had to wrestle down to be comfortable to even allow myself to go there. So this idea of knowing what you're capable of but it's because you put the work in. It's because you're confident in your ability because you've developed it. And it's this mix of joy and excitement and confidence to go out there and to execute on all that hard work. So I actually competed in 2006 at the Olympic Games with a list of 'I knows' in my pocket. I wrote out that I know I'm the fastest, I know I'm the strongest and I know my moment is right now and it wasn't being arrogant because I had moved across the country. I had invested eighty thousand dollars a year into a world class team that wasn't typically working with amateur athletes that had come from the professional world. I was the fastest and despite only being 5 foot 3 I had so much power packed into my legs in that moment that I knew I just had to let it out and execute on that. And that gave me great confidence to be able to root myself in the facts that I was there to compete with the world's best and I had what it took.

PC: And so when you're talking to you know younger athletes, people who are coming up the ranks and you're working with them. And I mean into the Olympic ranks potentially and they, 'ah I just feel gross when I see that. It's so arrogant to talk of myself beyond being very good at this,' you know all those things. What do you say to them?

JENNIFER HEIL: Well I think it has changed. I mean I'm talking about a moment in 2006 where we weren't collectively saying we want to be the best team. We hadn't delivered that on. I mean 2010 was the first time that we said on top of that podium of the world and being the most successful. So the attitude has changed because our expectations have changed and our institutions have changed and everything we do is built around competing to be one of the best nations in the world. And so it's shifted our expectations of ourselves and it's allowed us to go out there and to step up really.

JENNIFER HEIL: Emer O'Toole you have an interesting perspective as a relative newcomer to Canada inside and outside perspectives. So you said Canadians don't go with changing, that we shouldn't have swagger. But if we look at swagger not by the dictionary definition but by the things the other guys have said taking the stand, believing in your success, you say what?

EMER O'TOOLE: Yes well as a world experts on Canadians, having lived here for five years, I do think that there's something to be lost in pursuing a more kind of downstairs neighbor swaggering style. I'd like to dust off my philosophy degree if that's okay. It's that all right? Like I have to take it out sometimes to prove to my mom that I do use.

PC: Go right ahead.

EMER O'TOOLE: Yes. So what we're talking about is like the Aristotelian virtue or the Ancient Greek virtue of proper pride. And that's at odds with Christian morality. So for Christie morality obviously humility is key. What you want to be is humble. The humble are the ones who are going to inherit heaven or bread or something I don't know. But anyways Christianity likes the humble. However if we go back further in Western civilization and we look at what the Greeks were saying they weren't saying Be humble. They were saying somewhere on a pole between arrogance and humility there is proper pride. There is recognizing as Jennifer did that she was in fact the fastest and the best in her chosen discipline. Jennifer probably just go around the place. I don't know Jennifer I don't want to speak for you. But like swaggering the streets say I'm the best at shopping and I'm the best at cooking and I'm the best at being a mom you know. She probably knows that she has proper pride for her areas of expertise right. So that's like the ancient Greek kind of idea of what we should be aiming for in terms of virtue that golden mean between two extremes. And I kind of feel like swagger is a little bit too far in the opposite direction.

PC: Jennifer, should we should just ask do you walk down the street and say 'I'm great at shopping. I'm great at cooking'.

JENNIFER HEIL: Ask my children they would know it's not true. I wouldn't get that chance on that one.

PC: All right. I want to play another clip from Justin Trudeau. Here's what he said in the house as he paid tribute to Canadian athletes after the Pyongyang Olympics earlier this year.

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The games give humble Canada a chance to show off a bit, a chance to show some - yes - swagger. And this time around, in Pyongyang, did you ever show it?

PC: So you know I think a lot of people are like 'okay the sports world is a little bit different'. Like that's where you are the best in the world when you go to the Olympics. So yes swagger there, no swagger elsewhere. Jennifer how do you see swagger outside of the sports arena?

JENNIFER HEIL: Yes that's a great question. I've been through this enough to know that if you want to compete, if you want to be your best - which is how I've always defined competition - that you have to bring that confidence. And I think we've been struggling with this a little bit on this conversation is how do you define swagger. How do you define competence and I think that's of utmost importance. And I know that I'm faced now and in daily life with challenges that I have to stretch to meet, and if I don't show up with that confidence and that deep down belief that I can reach that, that I can challenge myself, that I can ask others where I need help for that then I'm not going to achieve it. So I absolutely use that confidence every day in my life and I would say it's the biggest gift that sport has provided me.

PC: Michael Katchen.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I love that. I mean I'm an entrepreneur right and I think what entrepreneurs do is you will something into existence against all the odds. You try to start something when there's competition. We don't have the resources to build a business. And to meet swagger is about the aspiration that you're going to build something world class for us when we started wealth simple where we try to help people manage their money. I got to ask the first week of the company when we had zero assets zero clients, what's the business you want to build? I set out the aspiration we want to be the first company ever to reach a trillion dollars in assets in 15 years. Vanguard did in 2005, BlackRock the largest asset manager in the world in 20. We want to do it in 15. Why can't that be a Canadian company? The next company to do it we'll do it in 15 years. Let's be that.

PC: I think there some people will say 'ew gross. He's so arrogant when he says that'.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: You know I hope not because the idea is...

PC: I am saying you are. I'm just saying- I want you to talk about when you say those things so boldly and directly and ambitiously, we kind of think that's an American trait, many of us and not a one that many people would [cross talking].

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I wouldn't say that it's incumbent on us to have this mindset because we are not the best in the world, for instance right now, in all of these different fields of the economy that we need to get good at to be able to prosper as a nation going forward. And I think to do that we can't just rest on the 'hey you know let's only be confident what we're good at today'. We have to have the aspiration of how we're going to build confidence how we're going to build capabilities in all these different areas. And I think one of the greatest examples I've seen of this is Macron when he won the election in France came out the next day and said France is going to be the best nation in the world for working on sustainable energy. If you were someone who cares about saving the environment building sustainable energy projects come to France. We're going to make it easier for you to do business. We're going to make it the best place on the planet to do it. And he was setting up this aspiration. It didn't exist at the time. But he set up this aspiration with swagger, with confidence. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Then you build the capability to actually meet that. And it's not you know being arrogant it's not puffing yourself up and not delivering but to me I think it's important to have big ideas and big aspirations.

PC: I know you googled something like what's Canada number one to kind of get at the point that you're trying to say, so why don't you tell us what you found.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: Well if you search Wikipedia for what Canada ranks number one in you know there's several things in the world. But I think the number one on that list is the number one flaxseed producer, not a particularly inspiring category. I think that's great. As flaxseed producer isn't a great aspiration. I think I would love for our country to have bigger aspirations and add that to other categories as well.

PC: Emer O'Toole if not more swagger as Canadians. I mean do we develop in your esteemed opinion an identity that is decidedly anti swagger?

EMER O'TOOLE: But you don't need to develop it because you already have it, don't you. Like it's like watch Canadians dressing up to go for a night out. Like go to Europe. The women are getting into their heels. The men are getting to their ties and shirts. And then here it's like Blunstones and jeans. Like the dress code is 'could I jump from a galloping horse, hang onto a burning helicopter, save a baby and swim through an ocean and if so I'm prepared for my night out'. And what I've got in my handbag, is it a face compact and lipstick? No it is an umbrella and a pocket of Kleenex and that is kind of Canada right. It's not like the thays it's about the fact that you're practical and prepared and understated. I don't necessarily think that amounts to a lack of capital. Even though obsoleted take the point that like confidence, ambition and dreams and drivers super important to the economy and also to people's well-being there's something extremely charming about Canadian understatedness. And if every Canadian was getting up and blustering about how we need more swagger like Justin Trudeau did in that clip that started the segment, I think I think it will be something very fundamental about the character of this country.

PC: Well Justin Trudeau who reignited this conversation this week has been accused of being 'all sizzle no steak'. So Emer O'Toole How dangerous do you think empty swagger can be?

EMER O'TOOLE: Oh I don't I don't know what to start Trudeau bashing because of course he's a politician and politicians need swagger don't they. It's like something of a cult of the personality. So I don't want to accord with the suggestion that Trudeau is all sizzle no steak. I think there is some steak under there. Perhaps the steak is a little smaller that he's pretending it is.

EMER O'TOOLE: Jennifer Heil, some people are going to say 'Why are you guys talking about swagger on the radio?' But it is important in the context of figure out who we are and who we want to be on various world stages, and if we want to be there and how we want to compete or participate or whatever. So how useful do you think these conversations are about who we are at our core as Canadians, especially I guess in relation to our neighbors to the south who are accused of having a whole lot of swagger?

JENNIFER HEIL: Well I think it's really important. And again I lived through a transformation where I saw having these conversations change a country and I don't just mean in the sports sector. I mean showing up in 2010 and walking the streets of Vancouver and feeling that Canadian pride was an amazing moment in this country and I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can have confidence and still be Canadian. And I think there was fundamentally a shift in that and the way I defined it and the way I was comfortable with it was this idea of quiet confidence, that I'm still Canadian I'm still humble. I'm still proud at the effort of showing up and I'll be ready for anything but I want to be my best and I want to compete and I want my team to be the best. And in order to do that you have to set that vision. You have to collectively talk about it because you have to build the foundation and the institutions to support it. It's not one without the other and it's not confidence without the work and the institutions and the plan to deliver it and to sustain it.

PC: And I think one of the things that some Canadians rebuffed the idea of swagger is that a it is opposite to our other big Canadian identity piece which is being nice. And Jennifer, I think people, I don't know you, but I think people would say she carries both. And so you're saying that you have to balance those two aspects of your Canadian identity.

JENNIFER HEIL: A hundred percent and it wasn't always easy. I mean it was an emotional journey and there was a lot of discomfort to be honest on how I defined competition and how I was okay to want to be my best but came with beating others. And that was a really uncomfortable place for me. But at the end of the day I wanted to rise to the challenge to be my best. I want to compete on the world stage. I wanted to represent my country with pride and in order to do that I needed that confidence.

PC: Michael Katchen, I mean we need swagger. Would you call yourself a guy with swagger?

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I really don't love the term

PC: You have been arguing for it.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: I think I'd like to think I'd like to believe that I do it in a Canadian way.

PC: Like I am sorry I have swagger.

MICHAEL KATCHEN: Yes exactly right. I think that, we talked at the start, that to me the quality you most admire in great Canadians is not only that they are humble and nice - which is you know fundamental you people what we are humble and nice - but it's humble nice and confident. You know and I think that's the piece that I'd love Canadians to build more of. Not apologetic, not you know with small dreams, small ideas or content to just settle. But we can also be quiet, confident, nice, humble all of those things all at once and I actually think it's a really powerful combination because you're not pouring a lot of hot air. You don't come across as Americans that are building themselves up or trash talking their opponents on a sports arena that's not what it's about. It's about being humble and confident at the same time in your abilities and really aspiring to do great things.

PC: Okay the great swagger debate will continue but I have to leave it there. Thank you to all three of you. Michael Katchen is the founder and CEO of Wealthsimple an online investment platform. He's here in Toronto. Jennifer Heil won the gold medal in mogul skiing at the 2006 Winter Olympics and she also won the silver in Vancouver in 2010. She is now the vice president of sport development at Via sport an organization that supports amateur athletes in British Columbia. Jennifer Hiles in Vancouver. And Eimer O'Toole is a professor of Irish performance studies at Concordia as well as a writer and cultural commentator for the Guardian. She is in Montreal. Okay, over to you. What do you think. Great debate. Do Canadians need more swagger? And what does that mean to you? Head to cbc.ca/thecurrent and you can click on the Contact Us button or you can find us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC.

SAMIRA MOHYEDDIN: Hello I'm Samira Mohyeddin, one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Alison Masemann, Howard Goldenthal, Pacinthe Mattar, Idella Sturino, Julie Crysler, Samira Moyheddin, Ines Colabrese, Kristin Nelson, Willow Smith, John Chipman, Karin Marley, and Danielle Carr. Thanks to our network producers Anne Penman in Vancouver, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg. Mary-Catherine McIntosh in Halifax, and Michael O'Halloran in Calgary ... The Current's intern is Bethlehem Mariam. The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso and our digital producer is Padraig Moran. Our documentary editor is Joan Webber. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Shamhan Bhuiyan. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our senior producers are Geoff Turner in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The acting executive producer of The Current is Liz Hoath.

PC: Well that is the current for this Friday stay tuned to Radio 1 for Q and this Sunday at noon you can catch me in my regular gig hosting Out in the Open here on CBC Radio 1. I'll be speaking with a Brynne Frauenhoffer. She had been coping with severe depression and anxiety since she was a teenager. A few years ago she felt powerless to control the illness and she checked herself into a psychiatric ward.

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I feel like letting go of control helps you to find support because there was a part of me that felt like I had to fix it, that I was weak if I couldn't manage everything all by myself. Giving myself over to therapists and doctors and friends and family is what has helped me recover and recognising that I cannot do it all by myself. And that's humbling and it's not fun all the time but there was a time in my life when the love couldn't get in from other people and now love can get in.

PC: When is it time to let go of control. I'll be asking that question on Out in the Open that is Sunday at noon online at cbc.ca/open or you can grab the podcast. Finally for us today, after our conversation about Canadian swagger, we going to end on some music from a proud Torontonian and a proud Canadian but with swagger to spare. Here's Drake with Started from the Bottom. I'm Piya Chattopadhyay. Thank you for letting us your ear here on the Friday edition of The Current.

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[Song: Starting from the Bottom by Drake]

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