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The Current Transcript for January 29, 2018

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Stay with us, stay with us, open your eyes, stay with us, open your eyes, Aymen, open your eyes, open your eyes!

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He was late for prayers that night almost didn't go. And when he did get there, Ayman Derbali came across a scene he could never have imagined, an armed man ready to shoot into a cluster of worshippers at his Quebec City mosque. The decisions he made in the seconds after registering the danger would save lives and change his life forever. In just a moment, our project Adaptation follows the grueling challenges and the precious moments of triumph, for Ayman Derbali and his family exactly one year after that fateful Sunday evening. Also today, jury selection is set to begin in the case of Saskatchewan farmer charged with second degree murder in the shooting death of an Indigenous man. It is a case that has exposed racial tensions and political divides between First Nations communities and rural municipalities. In half an hour, we're asking about the tensions playing out in the background as the case surrounding the death of Colten Boushie goes to trial. And Stephen Harper's Conservative government brokered the deal, Justin Trudeau's Liberal government went through with it.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: As I have said every single time I have been asked about this contract—this contract was signed in February of 2014, and we will be respecting that contract.

AMT: But Canada's $15 billion contract to supply Light Armoured Vehicles to Saudi Arabia now faces another federal court challenge and more pressure in the court of public opinion as humanitarian agencies connect the dots between Canadian-supplied military vehicles and the ongoing suffering of civilians in the war in Yemen. That's in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Paralyzed survivor of Quebec mosque attack is still fighting to find peace

Guests: Aymen Derbali, Nedra Zahousani

[Music: Adaptation Theme]

AMT: It was a cold, quiet, Quebec City evening—one year ago tonight— when the peace was shattered in a terror attack that left nothing the same again. A gunman strode into a mosque, and within minutes six worshippers were dead, and a dozen more injured. Alexandre Bissonette is charged with six counts of first-degree murder and six counts of attempted murder using a restricted firearm. Aymen Derbali was there that night to pray and a split second decision there forever altered his life. The attack left him in a coma for months and unable walk again. Today as part of our project, Adaptation, we bring you Aymen's story. This is Susana Ferreira's documentary, It Was A Sunday.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: In rehab]

SUSANA FERREIRA: I meet Aymen Derbali at his physical therapy session at the Institut de réadaptation en déficience physique de Québec or the réadaptation Institut. He is with his physiotherapist Nathalie Roberge, and they're doing a set of exercises. He's on a hard bed. He's using his arms. He's using a great deal of effort in his upper body strength to try and move one leg at a time to the side, and with each movement he counts himself down to it. One, two, three, move. One, two, three, move. Aymen's physiotherapy session is gruelling. So I asked him, how he steals himself for the day ahead.

AYMEN DERBALI: Toast, coffee—I use it to eat chocolate too.

VOICE 1: For breakfast?

AYMEN DERBALI: In the breakfast, yes.

VOICE 1: The chocolate in the breakfast?

AYMEN DERBALI: Yes [laughs]. A little bit. Not a lot.

VOICE 1: I thought I was giving you energy [laughs].

SUSANA FERREIRA: Despite the trauma and incredible hardships of this past year, Aymen is warm and he has a great smile.

AYMEN DERBALI: I'm trying all the time to do my best, to do some new physical movements that I wasn't able to do before July—like releasing for example the wheelchair breaks by myself. The most difficult thing—my right arm pain [unintelligible] which affect my nerve, the nerve. Now I'm controlling this pain, and I'm not afraid of having pain.

SUSANA FERREIRA: So Aymen came to Canada in 2001 from Tunisia. He's an IT specialist, and he's led a very interesting life. He's lived in multiple countries. He speaks Arabic, French, English, and Spanish. He's done humanitarian work in Canada and abroad. He's married. And he and his wife have three children together—two boys and one girl.

AYMEN DERBALI: This is a peaceful city. We were living in peace. I was used to work and to look after my children, my wife, and my house. So like everybody, we have a simple life.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Aymen's life has changed dramatically. His physiotherapist, Nathalie Roberge, says he is a tetraplegic. He's lost the use of his legs. But he's got partial use of his arms. He's been living here at this réadaptation Institut since July.

AYMEN DERBALI: I wasn't able to move any part of my body. This feeling was very difficult for me. My hope is that I will gain some physical facilities and I will be back to live with my family in a new house.

SUSANA FERREIRA: One of the first things he wanted to do when he arrived here was to return to the mosque. He felt that it was important that he go back there.

AYMEN DERBALI: Yes, it was really important for me to go back and to pray. It was a really emotional.

[Sound: Prayers]

SUSANA FERREIRA: This is the Centre Culturel Islamique de Québec. This is the mosque where one year ago today, Aymen was shot seven times, and where six men he calls brothers were killed.

[Sound: Prayers]

AYMEN DERBALI: I remember all of the people screaming.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Aymen tells me that he wasn't sure whether he was going to go to a prayer that night. It was a Sunday. He'd come home with his family. He was busy.

AYMEN DERBALI: I was programming a TV for my child. And I saw my watch and it was 7:30 o'clock. So I was wondering if I have enough time because I knew that the prayer started at 7:30. After wondering a while, I decided to go.

SUSANA FERREIRA: So he got in his car and he drove to mosque. And it was a very cold evening—much the same as it is right now.

AYMEN DERBALI: I went quickly to be able to pray with a...

SUSANA FERREIRA: What he didn't know was that an attack was already underway. There were already two men who had been shot just outside the mosque.

AYMEN DERBALI: I didn't hear anything, so I entered.

SUSANA FERREIRA: And when he got inside, he took off his shoes, and that's when he noticed that things weren't quite right.

AYMEN DERBALI: I saw people standing up, and they were debating in the same place.

SUSANA FERREIRA: The worshippers were clustered strangely together and he didn't understand why.

AYMEN DERBALI: I found that very strange. But I didn't think it was an attack or something like that.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Until he looked over and he saw a man to his left.

AYMEN DERBALI: But I didn't see his gun.

SUSANA FERREIRA: The man had his back turned to him, and he started firing shots.

AYMEN DERBALI: He fired twice at the roof.

SUSANA FERREIRA: And this is when something in Aymen clicked into place. Something was very wrong and he needed to do something.

AYMEN DERBALI: I was surprised. I decided at that moment...

SUSANA FERREIRA: Let me catch his attention. So the mosque itself—the men's prayer room is a large open area. But there are pillars.

AYMEN DERBALI: I decided to jump to the next pillar to be in his vision and to try to distract him.

SUSANA FERREIRA: And he started to lunge at him, to act as though he was going to attack, to really capture this man's attention.

AYMEN DERBALI: Because all the people, they're in front of him. So if he fired in my direction, he will not kill anybody because I have the wall behind me.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Aymen told me that he looked in his eyes and he could see that he was nervous.

AYMEN DERBALI: He saw me and he decided to fire.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Aymen got shot. He got shot...

AYMEN DERBALI: In my leg. The other one in my chin. And two bullets in my abdomen. Yes, in my abdomen.

SUSANA FERREIRA: He fell down and he started to black out.

AYMEN DERBALI: That moment I was unconscious. I was unconscious. Some brothers who were still there didn't escape. They told that he fired me on the ground. Fired me like three times to be sure that I am dead. After that, I woke up and I hear a lot of people screaming. Police and ambulances. 'We need help! We need help!' Some brothers they told make the [unintelligible] intention before..

[Sound: Sirens]

SUSANA FERREIRA: One of the other men at the mosque was yelling at him, 'Aymen, stay with us! Stay with us!'

AYMEN DERBALI: ‘Stay with us, stay with us, open your eyes, stay with us, open your eyes, Aymen, open your eyes, open your eyes!' So I opened my eyes

SUSANA FERREIRA: And he saw a police officer. He saw a uniform. He heard more screaming, and he closed his eyes again.

AYMEN DERBALI: I remember...

VOICE 1: We're learning more about what happened Sunday night during the attack at the Quebec City mosque. Police sources told Radio-Canada the suspected gunman, Alexandre Bissonnette, approached the mosque with two firearms. One was a long gun. The other 9–mm handgun registered in his name.

SUSANA FERREIRA: On Saturdays and Sundays Aymen goes home to visit his family at their fourth floor apartment. And on this particular Saturday, I accompany him to his building and his wife Nedra buzzes us in.

[Sound: Non-English speaking language]

SUSANA FERREIRA: We're waiting for the elevator and the elevator doors open in, and two of us kids come out.

[Sound: Children playing]

SUSANA FERREIRA: It's Youssouf and Ayoub. I walk into the apartment and I'm greeted by Nedra, Aymen's wife. And she's holding Maryem—their daughter—who's almost two-years-old. It's like a smallish apartment. It's not huge. They've definitely had to shuffle around their furniture. There are couches all along one wall and then there is a hospital bed in a corner and he doesn't sleep there at night, but it's there in case he needs to lie down because he can't get his wheelchair into the bedroom. Above the couches on one of the walls, there is a photo of Aymen before the attack. He's standing and holding one of his children in his arms—beaming with joy.

[Sound: Non-English speaking language, dips into translation]

TRANSLATION: My name is Nedra Zahouani. I'm the wife of Aymen Derbali. I am a housewife. I have three kids. That's everything.

SUSANA FERREIRA: A year is not very much time to heal from what they've gone through. It's still very raw for her.

TRANSLATION: It was a Sunday. Around 8 p.m., I got a call from my neighbour. She asked, "Is Aymen there?" I said, "No. he's at the mosque." I thought she needed me. She said, "No. there was an attack." When she said that word, it like I was paralyzed. I was in shock. People kept calling. People were saying Aymen was dead. People were saying he was badly injured.

SUSANA FERREIRA: She tried to figure out what hospital he was in. And finally by 8:30 she found him. He was alive, but he was in critical condition.

TRANSLATION: The doctor said that Aymen—when he got to the hospital—he had a blood pressure reading of zero. Already the first miracle was that he was still alive after having blood pressure readings of zero. He said he was in critical condition. He had been in surgery for nine hours. When I saw him—I couldn't. Aymen went into cardiac arrest four times. It wasn't easy for me and I was all alone. One doctor suggested we unplug the machine and I didn't accept that. The bullets touched his spinal cord. He couldn't move his arms or his legs. He told me he couldn't come home—he would spend his life in the hospital. Even when he put it like that, I accepted that. The important thing for me was that he stayed with us. Thanks to God, we are truly lucky—me and my kids. He's still alive with us.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Aymen opened his eyes almost two months later.

AYMEN DERBALI: I woke up...

SUSANA FERREIRA: And his wife was there.

TRANSLATION: I was with him all of the time.

AYMEN DERBALI: I asked her how many times I was unconscious. She told me around months. I said, "It was just like I slept one night.

TRANSLATION: Aymen has an association to help the poor, to help orphans...

SUSANA FERREIRA: And when he woke up the first thing he asked her about was...

TRANSLATION: Are really orphans being taken care of? It was very moving for me.

SUSANA FERREIRA: When he woke up he had recurring nightmares. He couldn't get the screaming out of his mind and he couldn't help thinking about the six men who had died. Some of them were very close to him.

AYMEN DERBALI: I couldn't sleep. I was hearing all the time screaming. [Unintelligible] I was asking myself I didn't catch him on the back? Why I didn't do a return and catch him?

SUSANA FERREIRA: And it took a while for him to work to forgive himself.

AYMEN DERBALI: And I said after that those are seconds. All the people are surprised to hear this—terrifying sound. After I said I did what it was the most suitable thing for that moment for me.

TRANSLATION: He's brave. It's not only him, the entire family is holding out hope. For us we can't stay stuck here that's for sure. Whether he's in a chair or on his legs, nothing has changed for us. Aymen is Aymen. And we love him very much.

SUSANA FERREIRA: Back at the mosque, if you're walking in for the first time, it's hard to imagine that a massacre took place here. But if you look closely there are still some signs. Mosque members tell me that there are still two bullets in one of the walls. They haven't been or moved. They also tell me that the shoes of the men who were killed that day are still in the same place. No one has touched them. Security has been heightened. Members have been assigned to key to get in and out.

AYMEN DERBALI: All of the victims and all of the community, we have received help from across Canada, the United States, and around the world. So we didn't feel like we are alone in this event—in this tragedy.

SUSANA FERREIRA: The community has always been close he tells me. But since the attack..

AYMEN DERBALI: More warm relationship after the attack. We feel like one body. A lot of sisters have helped my wife in preparing meals. My son, Ayoub, he's always asking her—his mother—when I will be back.

But, luckily here, I have a lot of friends. So they took him to his activities.

[Sound: Prayers]

AYMEN DERBALI: I know it's not easy to pass through this event. Our life has changed since that moment, but I have to be strong. You know this is destiny. I am lucky to be still alive, too see my family. So this is life. It's our destiny, so we have to accept it. And we have to try to see all the good things instead of saying bad things

[Sound: Prayers]

AMT: We have been listening to the documentary It Was A Sunday. It was produced by Susana Ferreira and The Current's documentary editor Joan Webber. Thanks to The Current’s producer, Pacinthe Mattar who voiced, in English, the words of Nedra Zahousani. A fundraiser to help the Derbali family buy a wheelchair accessible home has raised more than $300,000. Alexandre Bissonnette's trial is set to begin in March. Let us know what you think of his story and how family has reacted to helping him though these challenges. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. The news is next. And then, jury selection begins today in Saskatchewan in a case some say puts the whole province on trial. We’re going there next. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this The Current.

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Saskatchewan on trial: Race relations under spotlight as death of Colten Boushie reaches court

Guests: James Daschuk, Robert Alexander

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, we'll hear about a crisis half a world away, in Yemen, where a Saudi-led coalition is at war with Iranian-backed rebels. But because of Canada's arms sales to Saudi Arabia—now on pause—that crisis is closer to home than many may think. But first, a high profile trial gets underway today in Saskatchewan, And to some, given the racial dynamics at play, it feels like the entire province is on trial.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE BAPTISTE: "It breaks my heart. Like it had happened yesterday. We already went a whole year without celebrating the holidays like Christmas, Thanskgiving, Easter, any of those holidays we haven't celebrated. And then with this trial coming up, it's just... it's going to run from the 29th to the 15th, that's a lot of time and it just stresses me out."

AMT: Debbie Baptiste is dreading the next two weeks. The man who stands charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of her son, Colten Boushie, will be standing trial in a Saskatchewan courtroom. It was August 9th, 2016, when Colten Boushie, 22-years-old at the time, drove onto a rural property in rural Saskatchewan and ended up shot to death. Farmer Gerald Stanley is charged with second-degree murder. He has pleaded not guilty. Jury selection is getting under way for his trial—which is expected to begin tomorrow. And tensions are running high as a case that drew widespread national attention heads to court. Many see the trial as a metaphor for the province, which has long wrestled with racial tensions. Joining me now from our Regina studio is James Daschuk who is a University of Regina professor and author. Hello.

JAMES DASCHUK: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: They need 12 jurors. Selection begins today. There is a jury roll of 750 people. What does that tell you?

JAMES DASCHUK: Well I think what that tells me is a lot of people have their opinions formed already, and if you check social media, things are extremely polarized.

AMT: How would you describe the tensions revolving around this case this issue?

JAMES DASCHUK: I think the racial tension—and you get a call it for what it is—racism ebbs and flows here in Saskatchewan. For the last year and a half things have been somewhat quiet. But I think those opinions are always in the undercurrent. And so with the trial coming up, emotions are being ramped up and people are mobilizing on both sides.

AMT: And so what worries you in terms of how these tensions may play out outside a court room?

JAMES DASCHUK: Maybe this is a factor of social media, but emotions like I said are rising to the boiling point. People are converging on Battleford. And you know we're supposed to be in an age of reconciliation, but I just hope that no one gets hurt.

AMT: Now I just described what is alleged to have happened in the lead up to Colten Boushie's death. What is it about this tragedy and how it was handled that ignited so much anger in controversy?

JAMES DASCHUK: Well I mean, Battleford's our beautiful country, but they've got a very tragic and terrible past. The land that Mr. Stanley's farm is on and Battleford, as well as Redphesant that Mr. Boushie's home is in Treaty 6 territory. And very soon after the completion of the treaties, which allowed basically European immigrants to enter that land, the treaties were broken. Thousands of people were forced onto reserves through a policy of starvation. We all know about residential schools having generations of children taken away. In 1885, there was the largest mass execution in Canadian history took place in Battleford. And Johnny MacDonald who is the prime minister in Minister of Indian Affairs worked with Edgar Dewdney—his lieutenant—to have a show. They wanted a spectacle. And in their words, "to convince the red man that the white man governs." After that pass system and the legal pass system was imposed on treaty Indians out here from 1885 into the 1950s. So this divide has always existed for as long as our European ancestors have been here—we have had a racial divide in Saskatchewan.

AMT: And you're saying that wider divide will play out in the courtroom or will play out on the streets around the courtroom against that backdrop you're saying?

JAMES DASCHUK: I think it will be played on the streets. I just hope that calmer heads prevail and that the trial can work itself out in a proper way. That said, no matter what the outcome, one of those communities is going to be outraged and will be dissatisfied.

AMT: The Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities has called for legal changes around the need for self-defence because of what it sees as the lack of protection from the RCMP. That too, was playing out in the months between the incident and the start of this trial. How do you interpret that?

JAMES DASCHUK: Well I mean I can understand the perspective of the rural farming population. The demographics here in Saskatchewan are changing. The Indigenous population is growing—leaps and bounds. And I think what few farmers remain on the land, there's an increasing sense of isolation. And the law enforcement just can’t get to people's properties in a timely way. Whether that's human resources. Whether that's monitoring resources. You know that remains to be seen so. So I think what's been happening is that people are taking it upon themselves to defend their land. And often it's in a potentially violent way. That said, of course, every farm probably has a gun. So that's just part of life. Whether you’re shooting coyotes or whether you’re hunting or whatever. So you've got a frustrated, I guess, agricultural population. And you got an extremely frustrated Indigenous population, and there really hasn't been much success in bridging that gap. There really isn't a substantive conversation between those two groups.

AMT: So you've described Saskatchewan as the land of two solitudes. Is that what you're talking about?

JAMES DASCHUK: Yeah, for sure. You know there are people who could live just a few kilometres away from each other and really not know each other's stories. I mean that's been our reality here in Saskatchewan for 140 years.

AMT: And the RCMP in this case has also been criticized, was criticized at the time for the way that it released information surrounding the death of Colten Boushie. How does that play into what's happening now?

JAMES DASCHUK: Yeah. Actually there is so much confusion around that story. I'm not actually certain of the facts. But one thing I know is that there's a lot—I don't know if it's mistrust of police authorities—but there have been a lot of cases just thinking about the murder of Pamela George. The death of Nadine Machiskinic, and Neil Stonechild in the starlight tours. The police are perceived probably rightly that they have not provided proper service to the Indigenous community.

AMT: And again—so this one trial has all of that background that brings us to this point.

JAMES DASCHUK: We've got a lot of baggage here in Saskatchewan for sure.

AMT: I'm wondering you've seen the way the conversation surrounding this trial played out on social media, played out publicly. What were your thoughts?

JAMES DASCHUK: Like I said, I think the social media—I am personally not on social media for this very reason—is that it becomes an echo chamber. You join a site say, "Farmers With Firearms" or something like that. You hear what you want to here. And people work themselves into—I don't know if it’s a frenzy—but its working themselves into an emotional, I don't know.

AMT: Well, we saw Premier Brad Wall urge calm after a lot of opinions showing up on social media in the days after the shooting. Is there any indication of how Scott Moe, the man elected this weekend to replace him will be on this front.

JAMES DASCHUK: Well Scott Moe is a rural MLA. One thing about Mr. Wall is he had a lot of authority. His voice carried a lot of weight and he was respected in a lot of communities. Mr. Moe has been in office for 36 hours. So this could be—well for sure his biggest challenge. But this could this could shape his premiership.

AMT: So that's something we should watching as well.

JAMES DASCHUCK: I think so. We've got a new person in power and may be this is a time for positive change.

AMT: And James Daschuk, what is at stake for Saskatchewan with this trial then?

JAMES DASCHUK: If we can't resolve this in a positive way—not just the trial—but race relations in general—our society here Saskatchewan will go bankrupt. We've got inequity in education. We've got inequity health. We've got inequity in corrections. Children are committing suicide. Kids in battle for it are taking their own lives because they don't see any help. We got to do something about this.

AMT: So there are polarized views going into this trial.

JAMES DASCHUK: Yeah, absolutely.

AMT: How much pressure the rule of law—a courtroom is supposed to be a place where things are decided on their merits right there. What concerns you as that goes forward?

JAMES DASCHUK: Well I think what it is, as you said, there is a jury pool of 700 people. It's going to be tough to find somebody who doesn't have a very hardline opinions on one way or the other. It's going be tough to find someone with a truly open mind about these things.

AMT: Okay, well James Daschuk thank you for your thoughts on this.

JAMES DASCHUK: Thank you.

AMT: That was James Daschuk, University of Regina professor and author joining us from our Regina studio. My next guest says the Gerald Stanley trial represents an opportunity to have some long overdue conversations about the realities of life in Saskatchewan. Robert Alexander Innes is an Associate Professor of Indigenous Studies at the University of Saskatchewan and a Member of the Cowessess First Nation. He's in our Saskatoon studio. Hello.

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Good morning.

AMT: Well, what does this trial represent to you?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Well, I think this trial represents an example of the ongoing racism that's really embedded in this province. And the racism is really the foundation of this province. And this is just another chapter of this legacy that we've been dealing with since the 1870s and 1880s.

AMT: And why do you think this case has garnered the attention it has?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Well you know I think that the fact that you have young indigenous people who are seen as threatening by white people. And the way in which, Stanley reacted to it. So the violence that was seen as the only way for Stanley really represents resonates I think with a lot of white folks in Saskatchewan and the kind of fears that they have of Indigenous people, and maybe even some resentment. There could be resentment. There certainly is a lot of resentment towards Indigenous people in this province. And not only because you know white people see Indigenous people as a burden on society, but also resentment that Indigenous people are Indigenous to this land, and it's a reminder that the people that are here, the white people that are here, are not from here.

AMT: I guess we should remember that there are a lot of allegations against Mr. Stanley. That's what a trial is expected to deal with.

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Right.

AMT: What do you make of James Daschuk's worry that the tensions are so high they could boil over on the streets?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Well you know I think that there are a lot of emotions tied to this case for sure. The anger, the kind of anger expressed on social media, and the kind of violence that was expressed on social media was really coming from the white community. The Indigenous community was expressing support for the family. There was criticism towards the RCMP for sure and a discussion of how this is and it fits in the overall, everyday interaction of Indigenous people with white people for sure. But there wasn't any violence that was coming out of social media from Indigenous people. And this is what to me is kind of interesting. You know the preliminary trial, the RCMP closed down all the streets and had people on roofs—that many looked like snipers—because of fear there would be violence. But meanwhile these were families that came to support the Boushie family. And so you know there's there is tension, but the violence, the kind of violent kind of response, is coming from the white community. Now that's not to say that there isn't any anger from Indigenous people for sure. But it's not publicly expressed in the kind of volumes that we have seen from the white community.

AMT: And the anger on social media, a lot of that suggested that Colten Boushie's death was somehow justified.

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Right. And that they should have killed them all: 'if any Indian comes on my property, I will kill them.' That kind of anti-Indigenous rhetoric that was on social media. And you know interestingly that the RCMP has decided to not charge anyone with hate crimes for those comments. But at the same time you know encouraging people to be respectful, kind of says that the bar for respect has been lowered, while the bar for hate crimes has been raised.

AMT: So what do you think of the size of the jury roll, as they search for 12 members of the jury starting today?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Yeah, it's pretty incredible actually. I'd be surprised if they'll be starting the trial tomorrow. I mean that's a lot of names to go through. You know we'll see how that plays out. I think it's probably a good thing that they brought in that many to try and get a real good look at different people. And so I think it's a good thing to have a large jury pool. But I really doubt they'll be able to get through today.

AMT: I mean it seems to be recognition of the tensions that do exist outside that courtroom.

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Right. Right. Right. And you know I think that this could be an attempt to try to have a jury that's representative of the population in the area. So this could be a good thing.

AMT: The case will be decided at trial. But is that process going to be enough to deal with the kind of tensions that exist in the background that you talk about?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: No, no it won't. I mean you know that the discussion about you know whether this is a referendum on racism in the province. Well, that referendum is held every single day in this province. And everybody in this province, even though they may not want to admit it, they know, right? They know that this province is racist and we have a real need in this province to address race relations in a serious way. This is not an easy discussion to have because you know for white people they have to acknowledge that, 'yes, this province was founded on genocide and the continual genocide of Indigenous people.' So this is a tough conversation for people to enter into because...

AMT: What is the conversation you want to have? You say there is an overdue conversation today in this time. How do you have that conversation? How do you sit down with the side that you say is so racist to have that conversation?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Well you know I think that people have to start to be honest about you know what this province is based on. And really you know to get beyond the stereotypes that people have. And to say, 'how did we get to this position? How do we get here? How can we now move forward in a positive way?'

AMT: And you think that's possible with conversation? Do you think there are people who want to have that conversation with you?

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: Yes, actually I do think it's possible. I think that there are a lot of people in this province who really want to have this conversation and who are having that conversation. And these things kind of going at the same time, right? So it's not like a monolith in this province. But there is a huge resistance and a backlash to any kind of conversation or the backlash against the TRC, backlash to any kind of negative kind of portrayal of this history in this province.

AMT: Robert Alexander Innes, thank you for your thoughts today.

ROBERT ALEXANDER INNES: All right. Thank you.

AMT: Robert Alexander Innes is an Associate Professor of Indigenous Studies at University of Saskatchewan and a Member of the Cowessess First Nation. He was in our Saskatoon studio.

AMT: As a postscript to this story, last May CBC Radio One host Piya Chattopadhyay devoted an episode of her program Out In The Open, to the case of Colten Boushie and what it says about our society. In it Piya talked to Colten's brother, Jace, who grew up in Montana. And along with his brothers moved to their mother's home province of Saskatchewan five years before Colton's death.

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JACE: Racial tension to me is something that's been ongoing and swept the rug, but still there. I was blind to the racial tension. I came Montana, and I have a lot of Caucasian friends. I come up here and didn't believe it. I didn't believe it. I seen it. I seen it. I could see the people's eyes. But I didn't even want to believe it. I didn't even think of the word racism until I came here. These events happened and showed how blind I was. A lot of these events and the words that were said—words that are still being said—racist remarks about my brother. They judge him just because the colour of his skin and they actually didn't even know him as a human being.

AMT: Colten Boushie's brother Jace on CBC Radio One's Out In The Open last May. I have time now to tell you about a story coming up on our show later this week. A tsunami warning last week on the west coast of Canada got people out of bed in the middle of the night... many headed for high ground. The alert was cancelled a couple of hours later, but it's got people on the west coast thinking and talking about preparing for "the big one" that experts say will one day hit the area. There was a run on earthquake kits right after last week's scare. But there are people who are doing more than just putting aside some food and blankets. Take Jeanne Johnson for example.

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[Sound: Squeaking noise]

JEANNE JOHNSON: So I pulled it out a little bit and I placed my car outside. Normally it's at the back of the garage.

AMT: Jeanne Johnson is pulling her tsunami escape pod out of her garage. It's a round capsule loaded with supplies that she plans to strap herself into if there's a massive tsunami. She lives on a peninsula, right on the coast with nowhere to go if the big one hits.

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JEANNE JOHNSON: And welcome to my little paradise. Isn't it gorgeous? This is why live here. I can do this in just a moment during lunch, take the dog out. Who wouldn't want to live here? But you know it's on people's minds. They think about it. And the way I see it is as long as you have a capsule like I have, you have a shot. And you know I've spoken with some of the emergency preparedness folks and they say, "Why would you live there?" You know which is the argument people would say everyone who lived in New Orleans: "You need to leave." Where will we go where we're safe from anything that nature can deliver to us? California is gorgeous. They're having wildfires now. You know, Florida, hurricanes. Midwest, tornadoes. You can't run from nature.

AMT: You can't run from nature, but you can plan for the worst case scenario. And that's just what some people are doing. Gregor Craigie, the host of On The Island in Victoria, will bring us the story of some of the more extreme preparations from pods to platforms to school desks that you can drive a tractor over. That story is coming up on Wednesday on The Current.

[Music: Bridge]

AMT: Coming up in our next half hour. It's long been controversial—now Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia is on "pause"— as a Saudi-led coalition is at war in Yemen. I'll speak with a woman in Yemen, where the conflict is contributing to a humanitarian crisis. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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Should Canada scrap military deals with Saudi Arabia over war in Yemen?

Guests: Nada Abu Taleb, Kamal Al-Solaylee, Daniel Turp

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Crying]

AMT: Schoolgirls in Yemen—terrified by one blast as they were leaving class for the end of the day—only to be stunned, by another blast. For nearly three years now, the Yemeni people have lived with scenes like these—in what the United Nations has called the world's worst humanitarian crisis. Since 2015, a Saudi Arabian-led coalition has been at war with Iranian-backed Houthi rebels. More than 10,000 have been killed; two million have been displaced; and millions more are on the brink of famine. And while Canada is not part of that Saudi-led intervention, Canada has been selling the Saudis military equipment—about $15 billion of it. Last week Germany announced it was going to stop arming Saudi Arabia, as well as other countries involved in the war in Yemen. Days later, the Trudeau government announced it had already stopped approving new permits for arms exports to Saudi Arabia last summer. That's when it began an investigation into allegations that the Saudis had used Canadian-made weaponized armoured vehicles against their own citizens. But now there are growing calls for Canada to completely scrap all its military support to Saudi Arabia. We'll hear some of those in a moment. But we're starting in Yemen, to hear what the impact of this war is on the people living through it. Nada Abu Taleb is an artist living in the capital city of Sana'a. Hello.

NADA ABU TALEB: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: We just heard the screams of those schoolgirls in that clip. How close are the blasts and the air strikes to where you live and where you are every day?

NADA ABU TALEB: Yeah, well I still remember that day because I was at work and my sisters were in school too. So when we heard the strike, we had no idea where it hit. We couldn't go as fast as possible to see if this is close to where my sisters are or not because this strike was in the middle of the day, right in the hour where students come out of schools. It was a moment of unconscious reactions that we needed to take just to make sure that everyone we know is safe and sound.

AMT: How were your sisters after that?

NADA ABU TALEB: They were scared. They did not know exactly what it was because it wasn't that close to them, but it was close to where I work. But you can only imagine you know how it feels like afterwards when they knew it hit next to another school. So it could hit next to their school the next time. And that's the thing about war you never know where they hit. It just happens.

AMT: What is that like, Nada? You hear the sound and what do you think then? Like how often does that happen.

NADA ABU TALEB: Well in the beginning, we were all like beginners to this war. We never know what these sounds mean. And now we developed a theory that if you hear it, it didn't hit you. So it's kind of a relief because you know you're not dead. But at the same time it starts to raise worries about other people you know and you just go right way to check your phone and see what others are doing and where it hit. You just go to bed at night and not knowing if you're waking up in the next morning. I feel so bad to say that we got used to it, like we never build any further plans because we never know if we're going to make it to the next day.

AMT: Really. You just don't even think about a future you're telling me

NADA ABU TALEB: Definitely not. I'm an architect. I'm an artist. And I had plans of studying—taking master animation abroad. But I can't do this now because I can't leave the country. And it's all messed up. All the plans are uncertain because you just never know if the next strike is going to be on your house or somewhere close to you or close to your family or your loved ones. So it just puts us in a situation where we just live in the moment and don't think that much about the future anymore.

AMT: How old are you, Nada?

NADA ABU TALEB: I'm 30.

AMT: How big is your family? You've got a couple of sisters. Who's at home with you?

NADA ABU TALEB: Yeah, sure, sure. I live with my parents—my mom and dad. And I have six other sisters younger than me. I'm the oldest and the youngest is seven-years-old. I'm not married and don't have kids, but I kind of hold the responsibility for my sisters. So you have no idea how terrifying it is when we hear bombing in the middle of the day and all my sisters are at school and in college, and you just don't know who to check on first.

AMT: Are we talking about aerial bombardment? These are jets flying over dropping bombs.

NADA ABU TALEB: Yes, yes definitely. Yeah. You would never know where it hits. It just happens. Sometimes it’s close to you. Sometimes you just hear it and sometimes you can actually see it. And your house—everything gets affected and windows explode. And you're so lucky if you make it out alive.

AMT: Is there any place to go when that happens? Is there any shelter to run to?

NADA ABU TALEB: Well this is the thing; the targets are not military bases anymore. And even if they do, they're located inside neighbourhoods where people live. So there is actually no concept of a safe shelter because it can just hit anywhere.

AMT: What has this done to daily life? You talk about work. Are you able to work the way you used to work?

NADA ABU TALEB: Well, I'm one of the few people who are lucky to keep their work. And I still go to work because what I do is providing aid for IDP in certain [unintelligible] in my country. So it's kind of something that we have to do during the wartime. But as for most of the people in this country, they lost their work and they have no idea how to provide food and shelter for their families. Sometimes we wake up to airstrikes and we don't know if we're go to work or not and sometimes we have to work at home and sometimes we just go to work, and it hit next to my office and I'm just a part of this whole war thing some way or another. So we just live it and experience it in all forms that you can't imagine.

AMT: What about food and water? How do you get that?

NADA ABU TALEB: The food and water prices have risen dramatically and not all people can afford to provide decent living for their families. Things are just too expensive for everyone. Considering the fact that salaries have stopped for over a year now actually. You can only imagine how the risk—if I can provide something for myself and my family, most of the people can't. They just sit at their houses waiting for someone to look at them and give them something without their dignity, you know.

AMT: And this war keeps on going. Does the fight between these countries, it's really a proxy war with Saudi Arabia and the Iranians—mean anything to people there or is it something they're stuck in?

NADA ABU TALEB: Yeah, it's the thing for most people here. We're just stuck in the middle of a fight that we have no idea who's got the right for. And no matter who is rightful in this equation, we're being affected in a very bad way. People are dying. People are losing their jobs. People are starving. In this recent cholera outbreak that happened, it just killed more people. So we just don't care [unintelligible]. We just want it to stop. And nobody seemed to build any logic in this. So we're stuck waiting for them to be done.

AMT: Do you feel abandoned by the international community?

NADA ABU TALEB: I wouldn't lie to you. We kind of feel disappointed because people are either fighting us or they are quiet about it or they're just providing weapons. So it's more like being left behind and not being looked at in a fair way because everyone can see that this country is dying every day and it's going like lower and lower. And nobody is doing anything about it. So yes we do feel disappointed.

AMT: You know I'm talking to you from Canada. We know Canada is one of the countries that have sold Saudi Arabia military equipment, specifically armoured vehicles. What do you think of that?

NADA ABU TALEB: I'm a simple person who does not understand so much about politics. But I do understand that there is business to some parties in this hideous war. What I just want to say, if they can just see what these weapons are doing to people's lives and the amount of lives that it takes with one strike and the amount of houses that is destroys to the ground and the amount of children they leave orphans and the amount to woman that are left widowed, I think they would reconsider doing this and being part of it anyhow because it's really ugly on the ground and nobody has no idea about what's going on. It's really, really, really sad.

AMT: Well, Nada, it's important to hear your voice. Thank you for speaking with me.

NADA ABU TALEB: Thank you for giving us the time.

AMT: Nada Abu Taleb is an artist and an architect living in the capital city of Sana'a, in Yemen. For nearly three years now, my next guest has been watching with worry as the war in Yemen stretches on. Kamal Al-Solaylee is an associate professor at Ryerson University's School of Journalism. He's Yemeni-Canadian, and has brothers and sisters living in Sana'a. He's with me in Toronto. Hello.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Hello Anna Maria.

AMT: Is what she's describing, how does it compare with what you're hearing from your own family?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: It's almost identical I would say. The idea that you can't plan ahead. The idea that you don't know probably whether you're going to be able to go to work or send your kids to school tomorrow. And for many people—I wouldn't say my family because as with all middle-class families we do slightly better than the average Yemeni—for many people just really not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. But that all sounds familiar. The worry about the sound of you know bombs falling or planes circling the downtown core, not being able to sleep. This is one of things I hear from my siblings all the time is that they can't sleep at night because of the because of the planes flying over. And they can't sleep at night, they wake up in the morning. They still have to go to work even though they're not getting paid, as Nada said. Imagine doing this for three years. I mean if you're sleep deprived for a few days that shows up in your day-to-day interaction. So imagine having to live through that for three years.

AMT: You talk about not sleeping at night and the planes—you don't know what they're going to drop or where they're going to drop it. The black of the night—where you would run to.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: She said if you can hear it at least it's not hitting you. But you wonder if you're going to be the next target. And you wonder has it hit your family members. I have a brother who lives pretty close to where the military compounds are and he has steadfastly refused to move from his home because that's his home. He's not going to leave it and go live somewhere else. And we've been trying to get him to move and he said, "If they bomb me, they bomb me. I'm with my children. This is my life.”

AMT: I was just going to say if he steadfastly refused; it means you're trying to talk him into getting away from there.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: All of us have been trying. Yeah.

AMT: But they can't get out.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: He doesn't want—I mean leave his actual home. But in terms of get out of the country as a whole, it's becoming much more difficult because the main airport in Sana'a has been closed. And the only way to get out of Yemen is through the Aden airport. And as you know in the last couple of days there have been clashes in Aden as well. And there are only a couple of flights to either Cairo or Jordan and sometimes to Khartoum-Sudan. And they're not daily by any means. So you're Canadian and you're here. And you know what's going on there because you can talk to them. So how do you react knowing that Canadian arms export deals have led to some support for Saudi-led intervention?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I feel really disappointed in Canada. I mean I know that this is not a recent development. We have been selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries for a long time. In fact since for the last couple of years—I think particularly in 2016—we have been the second largest exporter of weapons to Saudi Arabia after the U.S., and in fact Canada has become in the region the second—vaulted over the U.K. So I am aware of that. But I think the thing that really sort of makes me nervous is that this idea that we can play the hawk and the dove at the same time. With all due respect to Prime Minister Trudeau, that you can go to United Nations and talk about you know violence against women, and have a very sort of agenda focused policy. But not realizing that women and children are the ones who are affected the most by this war and not realizing that by selling these weapons or these light armoured vehicles you are prolonging the suffering on the ground.

AMT: The Department of Global Affairs says these Canadian Light Armoured Vehicles will help Saudi Arabia in its efforts countering instability in Yemen. What do you make of that?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I would really challenge that because I don't know how creating a theatre of war to such an extent and creating what is in effect at the moment, a lawless country helps stability. It's been three years now. I think everyone will agree that the war has reached a stalemate. There is just no progress here and there's certainly no progress militarily. And what human rights groups and international observers are saying is that this lawlessness has given ground for either Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula or ISIS for example. And this secessionist movement in the south now in addition to the Houthis rebels. So I don't know if war can ever bring in stability. This particular war I don't think the outcome of it will be stability. In fact I would wager there is more chaos and that Yemen is on its way to becoming the next Afghanistan or Iraq. We are looking at decades of chaos.

AMT: So what do you make of what Germany has done? They've announced the stop arming Saudi Arabia and other countries that were in Yemen.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Well I mean Merkel was very happy selling those weapons until she started trying to put in a coalition government and sort of trying to negotiate with coalition partners. But I mean I would say it's a step in the right direction. I think other Scandinavian countries have taken the same decision. And what I would like the Canadian government to do is actually be more transparent about the investigations. I think Canada was sponsored a resolution at the United Nations Human Rights Council to investigate and report, and I would like to see where is that going.

AMT: Canada has announced that it has paused approval of new permits for arms exports to Saudi Arabia—for now. What do you think of that?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: Again a step in the right direction. But the fact of the matter is that according to many reports, many of the labs in particular have already been spotted in videos and photos in the conflictive in Yemen and have already been part of the military aggression in Yemen.

AMT: Canada has asked or announced another $12 million in aid to Yemen —that just happened earlier this month. Now it has provided about $60 million. So it's giving aid to Yemen. How do you read that?

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: I think that's closer to $70 million now. Guilt money is probably the first thing that comes to my mind, that we are making billions of dollars in profit on one hand and then throwing $70 million, which really is a drop in the bucket. And it does not go very far particularly when you consider the health concerns of cholera and inferior. I think at the end of the day we are by sort of having Saudi Arabia as an ally. We have to acknowledge that we're also—bring ourselves into an alliance with a country that is blocking aid and medical supplies in ports that at the time where the country needs the most. I think about 80 percent of Yemeni food is imported.

AMT: And you're a journalism professor. Journalists can't even get in there most of the time.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: That's correct.

AMT: We don't know the half of what’s going on.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: No. I'm really grateful people like Nada and other smart Yemeni journalists who are basically taking the bulk of the reporting on the situation in Yemen.

AMT: Kamal Al-Solaylee, thank you for coming in.

KAMAL AL-SOLAYLEE: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

AMT: Kamal Al-Solaylee is an associate professor at Ryerson University's School of Journalism. He is with me in our Toronto studio. For some context—Canada does about $3 billion worth of trade a year with Saudi Arabia. Two Ontario companies—General Dynamics Land Systems and Terradyne Armored Vehicles—make the weaponized armoured vehicles which are being sold to Saudi Arabia in a deal worth $15 billion. This arms sale makes up most of Canada's exports to the Saudis. The deal boosted Canada into the position of being the second biggest arms dealer to the Middle East... after the U.S. Omar Allam is a former Canadian diplomat and the CEO of Allam Advisory Group, a global trade consulting firm. He says it would do more harm than good to halt trade with Saudi Arabia now, and that Canada should engage more, at times like these.

SOUNDCLIP

OMAR ALLAM: Right now what we're seeing is a very defensive statement in terms of how we're interacting with Saudi Arabia. So we need to look at the critical aspects of the relationship but also be able to talk about trade and investment, human rights, corporate social responsibility, and all of the other good things that could be built off of 40 plus years of a relationship between the two nations. So definitely more dialogue is needed between the two countries rather than political posturing on the Canadian side and a lot of negative attention and really a cloud that's hanging over the Canadian government's head with the light armoured vehicle sale. Because this is just one piece of the trade and investment relationship that we have with Saudi Arabia and there are a lot of great things that we need to expose and build off of.

AMT: That is trade consultant Omar Allam. Meanwhile, the push to get Canada to halt its arms sales to the Saudis is getting stronger—and it is also happening in the courts. Daniel Turp is a Professor of International and Constitutional Law at the University of Montréal. He's launched his second legal challenge to prevent the $15 billion sale of weaponized armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia. He's in Montreal. Hello.

DANIEL TURP: Bonjour, Anna Maria. It's been some time.

AMT: Yes, it's important to hear what you're doing on this whole front. Daniel Turp, why are you taking the government to court? Why go this route?

DANIEL TURP: Well because there's very important legal issues under Canadian and international law that should be addressed. I guess the only way to do things when it comes to this particular issue that the huge trade arms contract—that $15 billion contract—is go to court because the government has decided to go ahead with that contract that was made by the Conservatives and it just continued in allowing those export permits to be delivered.

AMT: Now what happened the first time around when you tried to block the sale of these arms?

DANIEL TURP: Well is the first case is down in front of the Federal Court of Appeal because we lost in the first instance. Judge Tremblay-Lamer didn't agree with our view that there was a reasonable risk that these tanks to be produced by General Dynamics that was reasonable risk that they would cause a breach human rights in Saudi Arabia or in Yemen. So we've appealed that decision. But we took another case—a second case—in early September because of the new [unintelligible] that were brought to our attention. In that second case, we are now in front of the federal court and there has been a decision a few days ago, where a judge decided not to accept the idea that the second case should be quashed because it had no chance of success. So I am very happy to tell you that a judge thinks there is a chance of success when it comes to this second case.

AMT: And this is because there is now evidence to suggest that Saudi Arabia use these Canadian armoured vehicles against its own people in the eastern province of Saudi Arabia.

DANIEL TURP: That's correct.

AMT: And that is against Canadian policy to sell weaponry that is used by a country against its own people.

DANIEL TURP: Yes, the guidelines that were adopted in 1986 under a Conservative government—Joe Clark was then-Minister of External Affairs. There is this policy that says you should not export military equipment to a country where there's a risk that this equipment be used to breach the rights of the civilian population. So our case is based on that fact—on those rules. You've been talking about Yemen today on the fact that Canada has a commitment to ensure the respect by Saudi Arabia of the Geneva Conventions, those very important universal treaty that are the Geneva Conventions. Obviously Saudi Arabia is using military equipment to breach the rights of the civilian population as we heard earlier in your report. So no I think we have a very good case and going to go ahead working on this with many, many students of Université de Montréal who are committed to make sure that the government of Canada decides not to go ahead with this. It's an issue of law and the respect of law, and the rule of law.

AMT: Well you know I want to play another clip of Omar Allam who says this is just one piece of the puzzle and Canadian trade with Saudi Arabia And he's says Canada has to be very careful about verifying that Canadian-made vehicles are actually engaged in potentially human rights violations. Listen to him.

SOUNDCLIP

OMAR ALLAM: Checking the tires is the best way to verify this. Pictures might work .. if they're real. There needs to be real transparency and an objective way of presenting the facts—I think right now what we're seeing is on social media, various reports, images... we can't really verify the accuracy of where the images or the sources or the information are coming from. We're playing Judge Judy on television and viewing social media by looking at all these reports.

AMT: Daniel Turp, what evidence is there that shows Canadian-made vehicles are in fact being used in ways to violate human rights?

DANIEL TURP: I agree that we have to be careful. There has to be inquiry. But you know I'm very disappointed that the inquiry that Minister Freeland had said she would commence last August has not produced any kind of results. We don't know anything. There's a great lack of transparency in that matter about what we know and we have some footage, there are some experts that looked at the footage, that came to the conclusion that these were Canadian vehicles used in the eastern part of Saudi Arabia last summer. We also have in our court case, affidavits of people that live in that area and that are now exiled in Canada that have also come to the conclusion that these were vehicles that were used in Saudi Arabia against civilian population. So we have judges that will come hopefully to a conclusion. But you know in this case my students and myself we've been trying to get information and the government has constantly refused to give us information. it has not given any kind of follow up to access that information requests. It's always commercial secrets, national security. There's something really wrong about not knowing what has happened with this contract at all. How many vehicles will be sold? When they will be delivered? We know nothing about that. So there's really something very wrong with the way things are being done in this deal and generally in arm trade which Canada is apart

AMT: Daniel Turb, we’ll watch see how that unfolds. Thank you for speaking with me today. Daniel Turp is a Professor of International and Constitutional Law at the University of Montréal. That's where we reached him. We invited the Department of Global Affairs to comment on this, but have not heard back. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Tom Power welcomes the actor and writer Greta Gerwig to talk about her directorial debut, the Oscar nominated, "Lady Bird." I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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January 29, 2018 Episode Transcript

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