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The AIH Transcript for January 17, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Home free. After a harrowing three years imprisoned in France without trial, Hassan Diab is back with his family in Ottawa and warning about the flaws in Canada's extradition laws.

JD: Turn coat for the worse. As informant after informant was detained or killed in China, U.S. intelligence officials suspected someone was giving them up. And now a former CIA agent and suspected double agent has been arrested.

CO: Reality check-up. A Montreal neurologist says news that U.S. President Donald Trump passed a mental fitness test is no indication of his fitness for office — and he should know since he designed that test.

JD: Confession isn't good enough for his soul. Our guest was abused by a priest when he was a child in Chile. And despite Pope Francis's apology he says more has to be done before he'll forgive.

CO: It'll all come out in the wash. Syrian refugee Abdul Sabouni’s deep knowledge of soap is a family tradition. His last name means ‘soap maker’ and now with a shop in Calgary he hopes to clean up.

JD: And… Seeing GI dog. During the Second World War John Wren's dog was sent to join the U.S. Army tonight. Mr. Wren describes the moment When Chips came out of nowhere to save his platoon and earn a posthumous medal. As It Happens: The Wednesday Edition. Radio that salutes a hero who could roll over — but didn't.

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Part 1: Hassan Diab, Trump Test Doctor, Chips Dog

Hassan Diab

Guest: Hassan Diab

JD: Hassan Diab is once again free to speak. On Monday the Ottawa academic returned to his family in Ottawa after being freed from a prison in France. Canada extradited him there more than three years ago to face trial for the 1980 bombing of a synagogue in Paris. That trial never came. What did come was a series of orders for Mr. Diab to be freed on bail. But each of those orders were subsequently reversed. Then on Friday a pair of judges simply threw out the case against him. They concluded that the evidence against him was too weak to even justify a trial. Hassan Diab joined us earlier today from our Ottawa studio.

CO: Mr. Diab how are you.

HASSAN DIAB: So far so good, as they say here.

CO: We were talking with you yesterday as we tried to set up this interview and you were driving around in a car full of kids and life was like it is for any dad in Ottawa, all kinds of demands and everything. What was that like for you yesterday?

HD: It was a great day, especially with the kids. The crazier the go the happier I go. They want everything they want to jump on me. They want to play, they want their full attention. Jena says ‘concentrate,’ I said ‘on what?’ She said ‘on me.’ I can't talk to other people again. So she wanted full concentration and there was some competition with her brother like who wants to get my attention. You can't, you can't put a price on that.

CO: When we spoke with your wife she described what it was like, these years, as being an alternate reality. That every time you were close to getting out, every time when this nightmare, of hers and yours, was about to end it would tumble into another round of it. What for you were the darkest moments of that?

HD: Well, every time I saw this over turning of the decision of the all these judges then I would feel miserable, I would feel this is the end of the world, simply because the judges who know the case and side out say something that I should be out, and the prosecutors — who don't know anything about the case I wouldn't say even they know one per cent of the case because it would be appointed like in the last minute — and they would say no simply because they had the power to say no and to veto the judge's decisions. And it was just, I'm not able even to describe the emotions and the frustration, because I'm alone in the cell, you know, and I'm thinking of all what's going on in their heads, in these people's heads who say no simply because they had the power. And that makes you really feel so down.

CO: You're describing what, you were 22 hours a day in a cell by yourself, tiny place. And you were alone with your thoughts wondering if it was ever going to be over.

HD: Exactly. It was the case like this, you know, in one building 22 hours, the other building less like 20 hours. But even during those two or four hours a day, it's a little bit bigger than the cell with so many people in it. And most of these people don't speak English and they prefer to speak there, you know, with their friends who understand them easily. So I was, most of the times, I would say excluded unless I'm alone with someone else. And then you go back to the cell, the guards don't speak English. And then reality hits OK they refused my bail again and again and again six, seven times eight times. And then you think of this the whole night, you wake up you don't know what the time is and you just look around it's dark, OK, and what if I said something differently what if? And then you keep speculating and thinking and until you drive yourself crazy and then you say I want to stop thinking. But you say something but your brain doesn't obey.

CO: And we should point out you were never prosecuted. There was never enough evidence to bring this to trial. Did you think this has to be over soon, that this is just a clerical error. This is something that could be cleared up in an afternoon.

HD: You know, this is what you think first and then one the ordeal keeps dragging on and on and on without a rational reason, then you think there must be something else. So I started believing like almost like I was about to believe and metaphysical things like somebody is moving things around because it was, you know, more than Kafka. If you put Kafka and George Orwell to write something about this they would fail to write a story like this.

CO: Can you recall a time when you gave up hope?

HD: Actually it was every time after they overturned the decision of the investigative judges I feel like is this the end. I kept asking myself and I would ask myself like for days and I would think this is it, this is it. So this end of hope came so many times, when I said there's nothing that could convince these people. Like hello, the judges are saying let him out and no. But luckily, or finally, the judges had their say without a veto. And they said almost the same thing the Canadian judge said, there is no prospect of conviction in a fair trial, but they said more than that even. They said there's no evidence to send him to trial. And still unfortunately our previous government sent me there knowing that there is no prospect of conviction in a fair trial and only because the law allows them to do this. And this is why I'm trying to see if we can get rid of this law.

CO: This is, you're talking about Canada's extradition law, and the judge said when he extradited you that there just wasn't enough there, that he wouldn't you would never would never come to trial in a Canadian court. And there you were shipped off to France where you'd already — it was a ten year ordeal altogether. Do you blame the Canadian government for that happening?

HD: Canadian government is represented by people. While the extradition law is part of the institutions here and this institution is not functioning well. So I blame it on the institution, that's why my target is not persons because persons come and go. The institutions remain there until we start changing these things to reflect what people in this country think. To start with, we extradite people to a country that doesn't extradite people back.

CO: Your ordeal is not completely over, it is? There could still be an appeal to this decision. Yet the French authorities allowed you to come back. Is there a chance you could end up back in this Kafka Orwell nightmare?

HD: There's nothing against me in France because the decision was loud and clear of the judges two judges, investigative judges. There were no restrictions and I didn't leave like, you know, because I didn't have any papers or any documents. So the Canadian government, thankfully, issued me a temporary travel document and accompanied me, but with the help of the French police, because there was nothing against me. On the part of the appeal, they do the appeal automatically and they have the right to do it and I will defend my views. And whenever this comes to the court the French lawyers, my French lawyers, will decide how to go about this. We have no plan yet.

CO: When we spoke with your wife Rania she told us that she was being careful about what she was telling your children about the case. When that time comes what will you tell them tell them?

HD: Maybe I will read some George Orwell stories and Kafka's stories first and then see if they can match this with that. And then, you know, I can explain to them my story, and they can compare and see which one is, you know, would be the top of the list of the readers.

CO: And you've lost a great deal of weight and you look quite pale and gaunt. What do you need to go through now to recover?

HD: Well, it takes — the reintegration process takes some time, but I'm with the people I love and it’s just a matter of time and reflecting on the past in order to have a better future. And I'm just trying to avoid wasting any part of my life in courts again. You know, 10 years is enough.

CO: What do you long to do the most when you finally have a chance to leave all of us journalists behind?

HD: Well, number one is to take the kids outside as much as possible, especially when the weather allows — hiking is number one. Icould take them out and weekends and after school. They want to go swimming. And we will do this maybe today.

CO: I will leave you to having whatever’s left of your day that you can enjoy. Mr. Diab, I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

HD: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

HD: Bye.

JD: Hassan Diab is an Ottawa academic. He returned to Canada on Monday after being imprisoned, without trial, for more than three years in France. Mr. Diab joined us from our Ottawa studio.

[Music: Laidback Hip-Hop]

Trump Test Doctor

Guest: Dr. Ziad Nasreddine

JD: He is fit for duty. This week White House doctor Ronnie Jackson declared that Donald Trump had passed a mental aptitude test with flying colours — scoring a perfect 30 out of 30. Dr. Ziad Nasreddine is not sure that perfect score gives us a complete picture of the U.S. president's mental fitness — and he should know he's the guy who designed the tests that President Trump took. Dr. Nasreddine is a world-renowned neurologist. He's based in Montreal. And that is where we reached him.

CO: Dr. Nasreddine, having seen the results of your test, how convinced are you there is nothing to worry about when it comes to President Trump’s mental health?

DOCTOR ZIAD NASREDDINE: I could not comment directly on his mental health because I have not seen Mr. Trump directly myself. I didn't administer the test myself to see how he's performing in real time, but the score that he obtained unusual. I mean, usually we get 27 out of 30 on this test. But he did have a 30 out of 30, which is actually a reassuring if this is the exact score that he obtained.

CO: This has been called throughout — the U.S. media calling it the Montreal test — and of course it's your test. You're based in Montreal. How did you react when you learned the White House was using your methods to determine if the president was fit for office?

ZN: I mean, this is very surprising. I mean, the test was not meant to assess the president or to assess somebody's ability to govern a country. It's a test for memory and language. I think because of the book that was written about Mr. Trump saying that he might be forgetting new information or forgetting names, that trigger that Mr. Trump probably wanted to reassure the public that his cognition is OK. But it does not assess personality or judgment. This test is not a mental test to detect mental illness.

CO: It doesn't determine whether he's a stable genius?

ZN: Exactly, it does not look at how genius he might be or how not genius he might be. It is something that gives a quick reassurance in terms of his presence or absence of Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's is usually easily detected with this test.

CO: What does your test actually show then?

ZN: It does actually detect if there's short term memory loss. And it only takes 10 minutes to administer.

CO: I'm looking at a copy, and I believe this is the test that the president did, and it's not all that difficult, is it? You have to draw a cube, you've shown the cube had to draw it. There's a clock, you have to put a clock on and put 10 minutes after 11. And there’s questions like the similarity between a banana to an orange is that it's a fruit. What's the similarity between a train and a bicycle, or a watch and a ruler. And so who might fail this test?

ZN: I mean, early Alzheimer's patients fail this test. So that’s what's reassuring about it, if somebody does well on it the likelihood of Alzheimer's being present is very low. It doesn't assess high-level performance, or if this person has a high IQ and he is highly functioning. It assesses deficits, like we were trying to detect if just something abnormal. We're not trained to see if he's a genius or not.

CO: As a neurologist if you wanted a fuller picture of Trump’s mental fitness what how would you test that?

ZN: It’s mostly psychiatrists that look at the fitness of decision making and sometimes neurologists also gave their opinion on that but they would have to pass more time interviewing the patient. So if we look only at the test results of memory testing it doesn't give a full picture of the whole mental status and abilities of the president.

CO: The reason why people were demanding or insisting that there be some kind of mental test for President Trump was because there's a book called Fire and Fury by Michael Wolff, who describes encountering Mr. Trump who is constantly repeating himself, he seemed to have the attention span of a child. He had trouble reading anything longer than a few paragraphs and he couldn't seem to follow a presentation.

ZN: It might be something where he's always been like this. So it's not something that necessarily happened in the last two or five years. It might be that he's always been exactly, with the attention deficit problems, which could be another type of personality, no interest in certain things, certain people have more ears in numbers than in words or in faces. And sometimes under the stress of having too many people you're talking to you can repeat yourself. It doesn't mean automatically mean the symptoms that they are the beginning of an illness.

CO: And so we haven't had a test that would indicate if any of that would be illness. We only know that according to your test there is no early signs of Alzheimer's, dementia or Parkinson's. Is that right?

ZN: I mean, yeah exactly we cannot draw conclusions about multiple mental conditions. So it's mostly specific neurological conditions such as Alzheimer's and vascular dementia, lewy body dementia, certain other dementias that can affect cognition.

CO: And a number have people have pointed out that, I mean, you are an immigrant to Canada from Lebanon, and this test is being used to test the cognition of a president who is putting bans on people from Muslim countries. He's been anti-immigrant in many of his pronouncements, he has used vulgar language to describe people from other countries. How do you feel about that? What's your what are your thoughts about your test being used to test his ability?

ZN: Yeah, it is an irony that an immigrant wouldn't be contributing to Mr. Trump's assessments. And his way of describing the immigrants, I don't agree with these descriptions for sure, but it is nice to see that immigration is a positive thing for countries and immigrants can contribute to society on different levels in science and in culture and business. And I'm happy that the Lebanese people and other immigrants from other countries should be proud of the way they are contributing to the country that received them.

CO: And you contributed a test that the president has passed and now he's believed to be fit for office.

ZN: Yeah, I mean, that part, I mean, I cannot control if is fit or not for office but I can at least say that I'm happy that the White House decided to use this test instead of other tests that are available.

CO: Do you know if President Trump knows that he was tested by something created by a Lebanese immigrant to Canada?

ZN: I doubt it because my name is very small written on the test, it is not something that will be mentioned necessarily by the doctor. I don't know if he would have accepted the test if he knew.

CO: Dr. Nasreddine I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ZN: Thank you so much. Have a good day.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

ZN: Bye.

JD: Dr. Ziad Nasreddine is a neurologist and the creator of the Montreal cognitive assessment. That is the test President Donald Trump was given to measure his mental fitness. We reached Dr. Nasreddine in Montreal.

[Music: Laidback Hip-Hop]

Chips Dog

Guest: John Wren

JD: He has been called a hero. And this week a UK charity posthumously awarded him a medal for his efforts during World War II. His name was Chips — he was a dog — a German shepherd husky mix to be exact. Back in the early 1940s John Wren was a toddler when his parents, like many others, sent their dog off to help the U.S. Army. This week Mr. Wren traveled to London to attend the medal ceremony for his former pet. We reached John Wren at home in Southold on Long Island, New York.

CO: John, what do you remember about Chips?

JW: I didn't know much about him in my earlier years, you know, when I was one or two when we had him. But when he came back home when I was 4 I remember that vividly. I remember going to the station with my father and others and having friends and all kinds of people around. But I most remember when I saw him in the cage and realized that was my dog coming home. And we got him out of the cage and took him home like he'd never been away.

CO: And how did it feel when you saw him get this recognition, to get this award?

JW: It was heartwarming. He got a lot of bad press over the years for being a kind of a rogue and being dangerous, as far as the people were concerned, and they didn't like us treating him like we did, meaning that he pulled me on a sled and they didn't like the fact that had gotten medals and things like that. So it really made me feel great to see him finally receive some recognition as a special creature.

CO: What was the award that he got?

JW: He got the PDSA Dickin Medal for distinguished service, whether it be military or helping people somehow. And his was of course for military and the work he did in the army.

CO: And the PDSA that’s the People's Dispensary for Sick Animals.

JW: That's correct.

CO: You were just saying a bit about him going off to war, What did your parents say about why they sent Chips to war?

JW: When the call came for this new idea they had of bringing dogs into the service my parents knew that we had a very smart, very strong, very powerful dog and he was young and that he would be a great candidate. And I know it was very difficult for my mother and father to make that decision because I loved him dearly apparently. I know from the past what they told me that's the way they felt ,but they felt it was a very important thing for the country for them to donate and do what they can to help the effort.

CO: But he actually — it wasn't just that he went there — which was that it wasn't his idea. He probably didn't have any choice. It's what he did when he was over there. Can you tell us what he got this award for, it was mainly for what he what he did in Sicily, is that right? Tell us the story?

JW: Well, that was one of the things he was on eight different campaigns apparently. And apparently what happened in the Sicily invasion, the soldiers were being pinned down on a beach apparently from a machine gun nest that he broke loose from his handler. It wasn't it wasn't his job to do that kind of thing, he was a century, dog most of the dogs were centuries. But he broke loose and went after the people in the machine gun nests in a single-handedly got them to give up and come out asking for mercy.

CO: How did he do that?

JW: He just ran in there and attacked them with such ferocity that one of the soldiers that came out Chips was at his neck and his handler called him off to save his life. And up to that point, apparently, he had gone into the machine gun nest, actually grabbed the machine gun by its muzzle and pulled it off its mount. And I guess he got burns from that and then someone tried to shoot him too I think and grazed him, but he went ahead and did it. And then the other soldiers came out as well, I think there were three other ones as well, with their hands up.

CO: That's not the only time that that Chip's smoked out some of the enemy. What are the other stories about that?

JW: Well, there were other occasions, there was one other I think another time it occurred the same day, he did a similar thing. Of course none of this is anything I know from my own memory. I know this from being told about it and from my parents but I don't know. And also a lot of it is from Private Rowell’s writings to us and what he said about what happened.

CO: Do you believe all the stories?

JW: Absolutely. There was no reason not to believe them. Private Rowell kept in contact with my mother by letters. And even after the war he had written my mother and was inquiring about Chips and she sent him back a letter stating how he had died and where she'd buried him. And he wrote back that he said that really is hurtful to his being because Chips was his best friend. And he said the Chips and he slept together an awful lot and the Chips had saved his life a number of times.

CO: Chips is the only animal ever awarded the Silver Star and which is the third highest medal for bravery in combat in the U.S. military. That I guess was rescinded, was it?

JW: Yes. That and the others too, the Purple Heart and the Distinguished Service Cross.

CO: He was nominated for those two. Was the idea that animals shouldn't be getting the same credit to recognition as humans?

JW: That's correct. They didn't see there's any reason that an animal should get a human being’s medal.

CO: One of the other legends about Chips is that he met world leaders including President Franklin Roosevelt, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Dwight Eisenhower when he was a general. And I just at one point he took a nip General Eisenhower.

JW: Well, he was guarding someplace, I don't know exactly where it was I don't remember it I was told, but apparently the general, who was general of the army at the time, he was there and he came over to see Chips because he knew about it him and knew about what he'd done. And he came over and wanted to pet him. He came over to pet him and Chips bit him. And his response was ‘That's OK, I understand that's what you're trained to do, I shouldn't have done that.”

CO: Well, whatever became of Chips.

JW: Not long after he came home, maybe within a year, he died of kidney failure.

CO: What will you do with a medal? Where are you going to put that?

JW: Well, it's not mine to put, it's been given to the army. And Robin Hutton, who did all the work on getting this together and making the application to the PDSA she's had a section set up in the World War II Memorial in New Orleans and that's where it's going to be Chips memorial down there.

CO: John it's great to talk to you and hear about Chips. Thank you.

JW: It's my pleasure.

CO: Take care.

JW: Thank you. You too. Bye-bye.

JD: That was John Wren speaking about his childhood dog and the Second World War hero Chips. We reached John Wren at home in Southold on Long Island, New York. And we posted some photographs of Chips to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 2: Ex-CIA Arrest, Refugee Soap Factory

Ex-CIA Arrest

Guest: Robert Baer

JD: One of the worst intelligence failures suffered by the Americans in recent years has culminated in the arrest of a former CIA officer. Between approximately 2010 and 2012 the CIA's spy operation in China essentially imploded. Some 20 Chinese secret informants were jailed or even killed. And that left the agency wondering how the names of those informants, those sources had wound up in the hands of Chinese authorities. Well, the answer may now be in custody. On Monday Jerry Chun Shing Lee was arrested at a New York airport. He has since been charged in a federal court with unlawful retention of national defense information. Robert Baer is a former CIA officer. We reached him in Washington D.C.

CO: Mr. Baer, as far as you know, what is this former CIA officer suspected of doing?

ROBERT BAER: Well, I've looked at the indictment and the indictment talks about mishandling classified information. The FBI broke into two of his hotel rooms and kicked up what they clearly identified as classified information. That's a rather minor charge, but the fact that they brought it so publicly means that they suspect espionage. And what this man did was take information from the CIA about agents in China. Those are sources that report to the CIA in China. And they clearly believe that he took those names and they're identifying data and gave it to Chinese intelligence, even though that's not in the indictment.

CO: And how many people, were saying 20, you have any idea how many informants or agents or those people that he exposed?

RB: Well, 20 would have been pretty much the entire inventory of CIA assets inside China. This is enormously destructive and harmful to the CIA. It's hard to recruit Chinese. It takes years and years, it takes people who speak Mandarin and so on. And China is a police state, very difficult to run sources there. So trying to rebuild this will take decades. This is a total catastrophe for the CIA.

CO: Harmful to the CIA but harmful, especially, to those who have disappeared into a prison or been killed.

RB: I think a bunch of them, they’re probably all going to end up dead if in fact they were spying for the CIA. The Chinese do not look at this kindly. They run a tough intelligence service and these people are not going to fare well.

CO: The FBI began to investigate this in 2012. Why has it taken so long for them to build a case?

RB: Well, for a start they have to prove in court that he actually collected this information to give to the Chinese and that can take years. You know, mishandling classified information is a fairly minor offense, if in fact he gave it to the Chinese is something the FBI is going to want to prove or put in front of him so he makes a confession — that takes a long time. The fact that they stuck with it, you know, we're talking five years, six years. They had a strong suspicion and it took all that time to build the case. It's not that unusual. And plus there was no hurry because he was out of the CIA. So he's done what damage he could. But now is the time to pay the price.

CO: At what point did they realize, CIA, realize that this was happening, that they had a serious leak of information that was affecting their informants?

RB: They knew right away, they knew that his sources stopped showing up at meetings or just disappeared altogether, phones don't answer. The CIA does what's called the damage assessment at that point and considers the possibility that communications have been compromised, communications with the agents, possibly diplomatic communications, any number of things or even bugs inside the CIA offices in Beijing. And that's usually the first culprit. And then they go back into the counterintelligence investigation and look at the possibility that there was a mole inside the CIA. But, you know, look at this way, there's no conceivable reason that this man copied down the names of these sources, kept them on paper, their telephone numbers and the rest, unless the intent was espionage. There's no reason he should have copied these names down.

CO: And that's the key to this isn't it, that there are notebooks found in his luggage containing the names, the identifying details of Chinese informants, phone numbers, information he was carrying with him when he was no longer in the CIA, this is 2012.

RB: And as a former case officer I assure you there's no conceivable reason to keep this stuff. I've run hundreds of agents over the years. I would never consider putting their names on paper in any way or on a computer or anywhere else. You walk out of a station overseas and you forget your sources because you know the penalty is death for these people. You do anything you can to protect their identities.

CO: But again, if that was 2012, why has it taken so long? If they knew they had those notebooks that's pretty incriminating. Why wouldn't he be charged sooner? He could have disappeared at this point could he not?

RB: He could have disappeared at this point but he’s been interviewed by the FBI over and over again and they probably presented this to him as a routine investigation, that they had these compromises and he didn't realize they were focusing on him. But usually these cases open up after a new source comes in. There was a mole, a Russian mole named Rick Ames, and they knew that all these compromises had occurred in Moscow in the mid-80s but it wasn't until the early 90s that they could really bear down and identify him. And it was done with telephone taps, Russian intelligence officers who came out, it was narrowed down to Rick Ames. And so this isn't the first time it's taken six or seven years to capture a mole. It's like the novel Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, the Le Carre novel, took years to identify the Cambridge Five.

CO: Now once it's been identified or once there's a suspicion that there is a serious leak and that your are people who are informing are compromised, does the CIA stop recruiting? Does it make any gestures or moves to try and protect the people who are informing to the CIA or do you just cut it loose?

RB: Well, no they pretty much closed down operations if they can't identify why the compromise occurred.

CO: Do you know if that's what happened?

RB: Yeah, I'm sure it's happened, so in other words the CIA was blind in China. The Chinese encryption is very good, and so the real important information is gotten by human sources. But if on the other hand you have a problem and all this stuff has leaked out to the Chinese — and 20 agents is a lot. So they knew they had a catastrophe on their hands. They just sort of closed things down. And U.S. intelligence, as I said, is blind in China.

CO: What does that tell you about what United States at this point knows or understands about what's going on in China that its so-called blind?

RB: Well, there's key events occurring in China. One is, of course, North Korea. Are there are the Chinese violating, on purpose, the sanctions on North Korea. We don't know for instance how far the Chinese will go to crack down on North Korea. We don't know — there's a sort of power struggle going on in China, which is obviously not public. So those kind of big events in China are not public and normally you'd get human sources to tell you what's going on and we don't. I mean, you're basically listening to CNN and reading the Financial Times to figure out what's going on in China, which is not where an intelligence agency wants to be.

CO: Mr. Baer, we'll leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RB: Thank you.

JD: Robert Baer is a former CIA officer. We reached him in Washington D.C. For more on the arrest of the man suspected of compromising secret Chinese informants website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Lo-fi Hip Hop]

Solitary Confinement Ruling

JD: Today a long awaited decision finally came and the B.C. Civil Liberties says it is a landmark for prison justice in Canada. A Supreme Court judge in British Columbia has ruled that the practice of indefinite solitary confinement in Canadian prisons is unconstitutional. Justice Peter Leask found that laws about segregation in prison discriminate against Aboriginal and mentally ill inmates. The B.C. Civil Liberties Association and the John Howard Society of Canada brought the challenge against the federal government. Jay Aubrey is counsel for the B.C. Civil Liberties Association. And here is some of what she said at a news conference today.

SOUNDCLIP

JAY AUBREY: The judge said I find as a fact that administrative segregation as enacted by Section 31 of the CCRA, Corrections and Conditional Release Act, is a form of solitary confinement that places all Canadian federal inmates subject to it at significant risk of serious psychological harm, including mental pain and suffering, and increased incidence of self-harm and suicide. Listen to this list so carefully. Some of the specific harms include anxiety, withdrawal, hypersensitivity, cognitive dysfunction, hallucinations, loss of control, irritability, aggression, rage, paranoia, hopelessness, a sense of impeding emotional breakdown, self-mutilation and suicidal ideation behaviour. That's what that's what we're doing to Canadians. And the risks of these harms are intensified in the case of the mentally ill. The court went on to say that the indeterminacy of administrative segregation is a particularly problematic feature that exacerbates all of those things we just talked about. It exacerbates its painfulness, increases frustration and intensifies the depression and hopelessness that is often generated in the restrictive environments that characterize segregation. Of primary importance is for the government and for Correctional Services Canada to recognize the size and importance of the mentally ill, cognitively impaired and potentially self-harming and suicidal contingent in Canada's penitentiaries. That needs to be recognized as a serious health issue. I have no hesitation — these are the judge's words — I have no hesitation in concluding that rather than prepare inmates for the return to the general population, prolonged placements in solitary confinement have the opposite effect of making them more dangerous, both within the institutions walls and in the community outside.

JD: That was Jay Aubrey, counsel for the B.C. Civil Liberties Association speaking today at a press conference.

[Music: Ambient Plucks]

Refugee Soap Factory

Guest: Husny Hadry

JD: His family made Aleppo's famous olive oil soap for generations, and now two years after fleeing Syria, Abdul Sabouni is continuing that tradition in Calgary. Last weekend his new soap shop, Aleppo Savon, opened its doors for the first time. Husny Hadry is also from Syria, he is Mr. Sabouni’s partner in the soap making business. We reached him in Calgary

CO: Husny, what was it like for you and Abdul to open the doors of your store for the first time?

HUSNY HADRY: Honestly it was very, very exciting. It was overwhelming to tell you the truth. We've never thought or even expected that many people to show up. People were so excited, people were so happy there was just pictures everywhere, media was there, just questions are being asked the all the time, people are just wondering, like they're just amazed of the product that we have. And the people that bought the same day, a few hours later they reviewed say to me on Facebook and Google saying how great of a product it was.

CO: What were you selling? Tell us some of the products you’ve got online.

HH: The most famous one we’re selling, of course, is the Aleppo soap, that’s where the name came from Aleppo Savon, and that was the famous seller there. Of course, the other ones like lavender and lemon and rose and the other scents. And of course the unscented too.

CO: And so you had a lot of excitement, a lot of people. Did you sell a lot of soap?

HH: Oh we did, we did. And honestly I think a lot of people had to leave because there was a big lineup they had to wait for half-an-hour or more. You know how it is, but we lucked out though, that day the weather was actually good, it was plus six or seven. So it was really, really good.

CO: What is it that makes Aleppo soap so good? What is it about this soap?

HH: Because the soap itself is just there's two simple agreements in them, just olive oil and laurel berry oil — that's all, that's how simple it is right. The laurel oil is an effective cleanser right, it's an antibiotic, antifungal anti-itching agent right. That's what makes it so unique because the way it dries it has to dry for five months to cure.

CO: Now the recipe came with this Mr. Sabouni testimony from Syria. Is that right?

HH: Correct. That's correct, yes.

CO: Tell us, if you can, a bit about his life there? What the factory that he had and what he was doing there, tell us the backstory?

HH: So, pretty much, he had a factory him and his family and it goes back to like generation after generation right. It gets passed on, you know he's the fourth generation. So he had a factory for himself, he was working for his father then he opened up his own. He was working there, you know, selling soap importing and exporting. And, of course, when the war happened he had to leave everything behind because he's worried about his family. He moved to Jordan and he stayed there in Jordan for four years. He opened up another factory there making soap also. I guess the government sponsored them and he moved to Calgary and now he's here.

CO: And when did he get the idea that he was going to start selling, he was going to open Aleppo Savon here in Canada and in Calgary?

HH: When I met him two years ago we discussed it together and he had an idea, you know, to start it from home in his basement. He made soap and we went to some festivals around here in Calgary and we sold them and there was a good response, people really like them they wanted more. We decided, you know, just to get a factory and start making soap and selling it and it was just amazing, the response was just overwhelming.

CO: You make it sound so simple.

HH: But it's not, you know, because we have to work day and night. It's really hard right. So we pretty much had to do it all from scratch. You know, you have to find ingredients here, you have to source it from here. You have to get all the equipment to do it from home. Then once we started selling them to festivals it was a great response. When we started the factory finding and sourcing the oil was a bit a challenge, of course, we had to find good quality oils. So we found those, we had to find, of course, the kettle to cook the soap in, that was also a challenge too.

CO: Of course there’s great olive oil in Syria, or there was, so where did you get — I know that probably the key ingredients are the wonderful products he had in Syria — where did he get laurel and olive oil from here?

HH: So we got them, we got the olive oil from here and the laurel we got it from Turkey.

CO: And what future do you think your company has?

HH: The future hopefully — our main vision and plan is to export outside of Canada and North America. That's our main vision right now.

CO: And what about getting around Canada?

HH: Right now in Canada we’re planning, of course, you know, B.C., Toronto — all over because we're honestly, lately, just right now as we speak, we’ve been getting a lot of orders from online from Toronto, from Manitoba, B.C.

CO: So Abdul Sabouni’s been here only for a short time in Canada. How's he doing?

HH: He's excellent. You know, he went to, of course, English classes, he’s learned English and he’s practicing, and, you know, he's doing excellent. And he’s really happy that he is here, Canada give him a chance. He's very excited.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. Husny thank you.

HH: You're very welcome.

CO: Bye-bye.

HH: Bye.

JD: We reached Husny Hadry in Calgary.

[Music: Guitar]

Stolen Snowblower

JD: Dateline Hamilton, Ontario.

[Music: Dateline Theme]

JD: You are a thief and you have an opportunity to steal a treasure. In stealing the treasure you cannot avoid leaving a clear trail. The treasure itself can be used to erase that incriminating trail, but in doing so it will make a lot of noise, which could alert people to the theft. What do you do? I don't know the answer — but I know, I know it's not, I don't know, just like take it anywhere, I guess. And here's the proof that that is not the right answer. This is from a news release issued by the Hamilton, Ontario Police Service and I quote “On Monday January 15^th, 2018 11:30 pm as snow continued to fall, a Hamilton police officer observed a male dragging backwards what appeared to be a perfectly good snowblower through the snow. The officer conducted an investigation which led him to tracking the path taken by the male and the snowblower. The tracks ended at the doorway of a shed in the backyard of a home,” Unquote. Well first, great work by that officer, and a rare case where conducting an investigation really means following a very obvious path left by an impatient thief. Second, you know those jewel heist movies where the master thieves use special equipment to detect the laser beams that trigger the alarm? You know that scene? Do you think snowblower guy watches those movies and thinks ‘Come on, just grab the jewel and walk out the museum, through the infrared beams and the snow come on.’ Of course, the guy who was arrested and charged with theft and possession of stolen property probably doesn't get the irony. That the very thing he stole could have erased the proof that he'd stolen it, even if it woke up the neighborhood in the process. Or the further snow related irony that by not blowing it he blew it.

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Part 3: Chile Pope, White Noise Copyright

Jeff Flake

JD: It was supposed to be a big day for Donald Trump because the U.S. president had promised that today he would recognize quote “the most corrupt and biased of the mainstream media” with his fake news awards. Now, for whatever reason, as we go to air the award winners have not yet been announced — we won't keep you posted. But in honour of the occasion Republican Senator Jeff Flake decided, today, to offer his own views on the media in the Senate and to criticize Mr. Trump's repeated attacks on the free press.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF FLAKE: 2017 was a year which saw the truth, objective, empirical evidence-based truth, more battered and abused than at any time in the history of our country — at the hands of the most powerful figure in our government. The enemy of the people was how the President of the United States called the Free Press in 2017. Mr. President it is a testament to the condition of our democracy that our own president uses words infamously spoken by Joseph Stalin to describe his enemies. It bears noting that so fraught with malice was the phrase ‘enemy of the people’ that even Nikita Khrushchev forbade its use, telling the Soviet Communist Party that the phrase had been introduced by Stalin for the purpose of quote “annihilating such individuals” unquote who disagreed with the supreme leader. This alone should be the source of great shame for us in this body, especially for those of us in the president's party, for they are shameful, repulsive statements. And, of course, the president has it precisely backward, despotism as the enemy of the people. The Free Press is the despot's enemy, which makes the free press the guardian of democracy. When a figure in power reflexively calls any press that doesn't suit him ‘fake news,’ it is that person who should be the figure of suspicion, not the press. I dare say that anyone who has had the privilege and awesome responsibility to serve in this chamber knows that these reflexive slurs of ‘fake news’ are dubious at best. Those of us who travel overseas, especially to war zones and other troubled areas all around the globe, encounter members of U.S.-based media who risk their lives, and sometimes lose their lives, reporting on the truth. To dismiss their work as ‘fake news’ is an affront to their commitment and their sacrifice.

JD: That was Republican Senator Jeff Flake speaking earlier today in the U.S. Senate. Mr. Flake went on to note that the phrase ‘fake news’ has now been co-opted and adopted by despots and dictators around the world since Donald Trump first latched onto the term last year.

[Music: Lo-Fi Hip-Hop]

Chile Pope

Guest: Juan Carlos Cruz

JD: The pope is on an official visit to Chile this week. But the pontiff has not received a warm welcome. People have taken to the streets to protest his handling of a sexual abuse scandal involving a Chilean priest. In 2015 Pope Francis caused an uproar in Chile when he appointed Bishop Juan Barros to a high profile position. Bishop Barros is accused of covering up the widespread abuse of children by another priest — Father Karadima. Juan Carlos Cruz was abused by Father Karadima as a child. We reached Senor Cruz in Santiago.

CO: Mr. Cruz, as you know, the pope has expressed his quote pain and shame. He said that yesterday and he has asked for forgiveness. Do you forgive him?

JUAN CARLOS CRUZ: You know, I'm not a vengeful person. I tend to forgive everybody, but the pain is so big that he continues to allow to be inflicted on survivors that exist already and those that are being abused now. And, you know, after he said that in the presidential palace, he went to a mass and was hugging and, you know, like nothing happened, three bishops that have covered up abuse. And that is very hard to watch.

CO: But one of them you're referring to Juan Barros, and he was appointed as bishop. Can you tell us about Bishop Barros and why it's a problem?

JCC: Bishop Barros is one of three bishops currently in Chile that belong to the world of Fernando Karadima, the perpetrator that abused a lot of people here, among them me. And so he witnessed our abuse. They would actually be there when Karadima was abusing me or others, at least at the beginning. And they continued to lie and say that they never saw anything when he was right there watching while we were all being abused. That collective amnesia doesn't really work.

CO: And was Bishop Barrow's was he appointed bishop under the Pope Francis?

JCC: He was a bishop already, but he was appointed to the diocese of Osorno, a city in southern Chile. And we had blown the whistle before, you know, they were appointed bishops. These three were bishops already but when the people of Osorno knew what he had done, because I tweeted what this guy had done to us, they rose up and have never accepted it’s been really divisive, not only in the Diocese of Osorno, but throughout the country. And Pope Francis, unfortunately, lied because he said that he didn't know of this. And actually a few weeks ago a letter from the Associated Press from that time that the pope sent to the bishops conference in Chile says that he was going to remove these three bishops because of the accusations but then some mysterious thing happened that cowardly he named him anyway and to remove the bishops.

CO: This priest, Father Karadima, who victimized you and so many others. What happened to him? Was he ever charged?

JCC: Yes, he was charged by Canon law in 2011, I think it was, or 2012 when we were, you know, for years trying to get justice. So the horrible thing was that, you know, we tried thinking that the church would do something and so when they didn't do something we also sued them through the civil justice. And so Karadima was found guilty, through Canon law and sent to what we call a golden retreat — they call it a life of prayer and penitence. So they removed them. They put them in some home with all the comforts that you would expect, someone serving them, but they can't do public ministry.

CO: How many young people like yourself do you believe — or according to the charges, how many people were victims of Father Karadima?

JCC: Well, it's difficult to say how many, because I'll tell you Carol, this man has been abusing since 1958 when he arrived to that parish. He abused many, many people. There's three of us that came forward and spoke up, but through the years we can only imagine how many people were abused. And the sad thing is that, and what breaks my heart, is that through the years we didn't understand why so many people older than us, and then friends of ours would commit suicide, and we know it’s because they just couldn't cope with the abuse.

CO: You said a moment ago that Pope Francis lied when he said that he didn't know what these bishops had done, how they covered up. It's a big thing to say a pope has lied, but it has been shown throughout the world where the Vatican has covered up, where its bishops and archbishops have known the abuse was going on and simply removed the priests and put them someplace else. What does Pope Francis have to do now to restore confidence in his office because Chileans are showing in great numbers, during this visit that they are very unhappy about his position. What does he have to do?

JCC: What Pope Francis should do is, you know, it's OK that he says I'm sorry and that they're ashamed and that they're sad about it. I hope they are because this is a crime against humanity basically because it happens in every country and to the most incredible amount of children. So I would say at the time for crying around the cities he visits around the world and saying sorry is over. I think there needs to be concrete action. So remove the bishops that have covered up, and priests that are condemned for abusing children should be turned to the justice system of every country and expelled from the priesthood. What are you supposed to think when all these people that should be punished are rewarded — it’s hard.

CO: Mr. Cruz, I appreciate your honesty and I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you so much.

JCC: Thank you so much for calling.

JD: We reached Juan Carlos Cruz in Santiago, Chile. Bishop Barros has denied he knew of, or witnessed, the abuse of children. He told the Associated Press recently quote “I never knew anything about nor ever imagined the serious abuses which that priest committed against the victims,” unquote. You can find more on this story on the As It Happens website.

[Music: Banjo]

Puerto Rico School

SOUNDCLIP

SCHOOL CHILDREN CHEERING

JD: That is the sound of the electricity coming back on Academia Bautista de Puerto Nuevo. The San Juan school was without electricity for more than 100 days after Hurricane Maria walloped the island in September. This joyful reaction from students and staff when power was finally restored is our sound of the day.

[Music: Jazzy Hip-Hop]

Mathilde Krim Obit

JD: She fought long and hard and she inspired many others to do the same. Shortly after the first cases of AIDS were reported in the 1980s, Mathilde Krim devoted herself to studying the virus and raising awareness of it. She would go on to become the founding chairman of the American Foundation for AIDS Research or AMFAR. In that role she was dedicated to raising money for AIDS research and doing what she could to lessen the stigma around the disease. Dr. Mathilde Krim died Monday. She was 91 years old. Also on Monday, New York City Council member Corey Johnson posted a tribute on Facebook to her. It said quote “As an HIV positive man who has been living with the virus for over 13 years, I know that I would not be alive today without the efforts of Dr. Mathilde Krim. I met her during my first trip to New York City at age 18. Little did I know the important role she would play in my life. Her legacy will live on in the countless lives she saved,” unquote. In a 1996 interview with talk show host Larry King, Dr. Mathilde Krim spoke about how she first got involved in the fight against AIDS.

SOUNDCLIP

LARRY KING: What got you involved?

MATHILDE KRIM: Because I was a researcher to start with, curiosity, interest — the puzzle of all this. And very quickly also, great compassion, sadness and devotion to the patients themselves.

LK: What was it like in those early days?

MK: I remember those days, you know, when we had all these young men who were very often abandoned by families, frightened, anxious desperate and I just could not stand it either.

LK: And this was like 13-14 years ago, right?

MK: Yes, 15 years.

LK: And you were one of these lone voices right?

MK: Yes.

LK: Wasn't it hard raising money then?

MK: Oh, it was impossible virtually.

LK: Who were the givers, rich gay people?

MK: The patients themselves to start with — their families, their lovers, you know people were interested.

LK: We turned away because you think we turned away from the act that caused it. Do you think as a society we turned away because we've turned away from gays? I’m talking about early on.

MK: Yeah, plain homophobia.

LK: It was a distasteful disease to talk about.

MK: We have other rather distasteful diseases, sexually transmitted diseases.

LK: But they’re heterosexual.

MK: This one was stigmatized more than any other because people believed it was a gay disease, of course it was not.

JD: Mathilde Krim speaking with Larry King back in 1996. The founding chair of the American Foundation for AIDS Research, AMFAR, died Monday at her home in Kings Point, New York. She was 91 years old.

[Music: Guitar]

Moranbong

JD: Moranbong is North Korea's biggest pop band. Now that may be because North Korea doesn't have a huge pop scene, as far as I can tell, but it may also be because the members of the all-female ensemble were reportedly handpicked by the country's leader Kim Jong Un. Also they do wear snug military-style outfits with heels and their shows sometimes feature a video of a long range ballistic missile hitting an image of the United States — you know, pretty standard crowd pleasing stuff. Now as we told you last week, North Korea is working through the details surrounding sending a delegation to next month's Olympic Games in Pyeongchang. Now also under discussion whether Moranbong will also bring their northern style of K-Pop along. The hitch is that South Korea doesn't want the band to show the missile video or to play any propaganda music, which is a problem because, well here are some titles from Moranbong’s setlist. “My Country Is The Best,” “We Call Him Father” and “Victory.” But the band does also have some instrumental covers of Western songs like the theme from Rocky and My Way. So things might work out, in which case we will be treated to some of Moranbong’s most stirring hits like this one which is called “With Pride.”

SOUNDCLIP

MORANBONG – WITH PRIDE

White Noise Copyright

Guest: Seb Tomczak

JD: If you're having trouble sleeping or staying focused try putting on something like this.

SOUNDCLIP

WHITE NOISE

JD: That came from a video of white noise posted on YouTube by Seb Tomczak, who teaches music at the University of Adelaide. That video is ten hours long and the entire thing sounds like that. He posted it in 2015, but earlier this month Mr. Tomczak received a troubling notice from YouTube. His video of what sounds like an undifferentiated hiss was the subject of five different copyright claims. We reached Seb Tomczak in Adelaide.

CO: Seb first of all why did you make a 10 hour video of white noise?

SEB TOMCZAK: A few years ago I was involved in making a piece of public art and this piece of art had audio and visuals that should go continuously for five years. And this got me interested in continuous sound and sort of the kinds of sounds that people would be happy listening to while they were sort of studying or working. And so, as a sort of follow on from that, I uploaded this sort of ten hour white noise video.

CO: And we just heard a bit of it. What exactly goes into that? How do you create that sound?

ST: Right. So it's a digital creation. So in this case it's just made with a freeware piece of software called Audacity and it's just generated there. Now that was just the quickest way I could think of to generate a 10 hour file without having to sort of sit there and record a white noise sound, white noise source or anything.

CO: But if you if you could isolate any part of it would they be identifiable sounds?

ST: No. I wouldn't say. no.

CO: Now did you make money from doing this?

ST: No I didn't. So, you know, I don’t have a huge YouTube audience so I don't see it as a moneymaking exercise at all. So it's just a matter of, it’s just a tool that people can use and that’s all.

CO: How is it that there are copyright claims on these recordings?

ST: It's an intriguing case. Now for a while people have been, some people have been, complaining about YouTube copyright. But I think this is a case that gets people interested and thinking about it because YouTube hasn't automated process when it comes to the copyright system and that's the Content ID system. So the idea is that copyright holders can upload content into the YouTube Content ID system and that system will then automatically pattern match content against other YouTube videos. Now in those cases where it finds a pattern that matches it will generate an automatic copyright claim. And so in this case, obviously, there have been people that have uploaded white noise or content that is very similar to white noise and this content has then matched against my video. And then, in theory, any advertising money that is generated by my video, is then forwarded on or diverted to those copyright claim holders.

CO: Any idea how much dollars?

ST: No, so YouTube doesn’t disclose that information.

CO: Is it possibly lucrative these claims?

ST: So, I mean, in my case there wasn't that many views before this blew up on Twitter. So it wouldn't have been that lucrative, but definitely this system incentivizes people to make spurious copyright claims. So in theory it could be lucrative, but in this particular case it wasn't.

CO: But also now that you are getting publicity and you're talking about this and it's becoming a cause celeb, that's generating more revenue possibly for these copyright claimers.

ST: Right. That’s true there was a time when the video definitely got more popular but also because people were talking about it so much on Twitter, YouTube then released those copyright claims, maybe two days or so after it got big on Twitter.

CO: But if you can fall victim to this, where you put up 10 hours of white noise and it matches other people's recordings of white noise and then suddenly whatever benefit that you may have from your creation starts to accrue to another party, how many more people are facing the same thing who have posted things on YouTube?

ST: I would say there’s many people. And in fact this this isn't the first time that I've received copyright claims of this sort or of a simple assault. So other original music that I've made those videos have also been, also I've had copyright claims against them. And, you know, I can imagine that lots of other people have been going through a similar thing. There's an implication of presumption of guilt or innocence I think.

CO: What are you doing about it?

ST: Well, I mean, in these cases that I've had, I've always just disputed the claim as soon as it's come in and then said ‘OK I've got the original files,’ and then YouTube reverses that after a few days. Hopefully cases like this with the white noise, which shows how sort of broken the current system is, can shed some light on it and will get YouTube to thinking about changing the system. But it's been it's been like this for a while now I think.

CO: I would imagine having an automated copyright system like this where it's kind of automatic and that there aren't any people involved, it's a pretty cheap way to run the business, is it not?

ST: Right, absolutely, and so from YouTube's point of view it's a case of having to manage the amount of content that's added to YouTube every day. So I can definitely see the benefit to having an automated system. And I guess I'm not disputing, I'm not having a go at that, but is it more of a matter of the ability to automatically divert funds from one video creator to another without there being any sort of manual process in place.

CO: Now though that this has been cleared up and that these copyright claimants do not have a claim on your work and you say the money being diverted, can you get the money back that went to them?

ST: No, no.

CO: That's gone?

ST: It’s irreversible, that's gone. Yes.

CO: What do you make of that?

[LAUGHTER]

ST: Again that's, you know that's part of the problem. And I suppose for content creators that have a large following, if they have a corporate dispute and it maybe takes a few days for it to clear, those few days are critical in the online world in terms of generating revenue from an ad system. What can I say apart from I think it's a broken system?

CO: Yikes. Young creators beware.

ST: Exactly.

CO: Seb, it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

ST: Thank you very much Carol.

JD: Seb Tomczak teachers in the music school at the University of Adelaide in Australia. That is where we reached him. And we do have some more stuff on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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January 17, 2018 episode transcript

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