Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2017

The Current Transcript for November 15, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

For years and years I didn't say a thing and for years and years and tolerated the environment around me because of the love of my country and the love of my work. I love what I do.

ANA MARIA TREMONTI: Two years ago Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox broke her silence answering a call from the very top of the Canadian Armed Forces that victims of sexual assaults and sexual harassment need not be afraid to report what happened to them. Two years later, it is she and not any of the men she named who is leaving her coveted career on a medical discharge. Today on a day when the Canadian government is showcasing a push for more women in peacekeeping, we're following up on the state of the armed forces. After the chief of defense staff vowed change related to sexual misconduct we will hear from Sergeant Cox in a few moments. And in half an hour we'll hear from two key people on this file; retired Supreme Court justice Marie Deschamps whose report exposed a military hostile to women and Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett, the officer now in charge of shepherding major change through the ranks. None of these women has spoken at length on these issues. Today they will. And then on the road again. Well on the road for the very first time.

SOUNDCLIP

We're building this road that's connecting Canada from coast to coast to coast. I don't know much other places in the world that have connected the Arctic Ocean to the Pacific and the Atlantic Ocean.

AMT: As a brand new highway connecting Tuktoyaktuk to Inuvik officially opens today, we're looking at a link expected to shape that Arctic community in new ways. And after that:

SOUNDCLIP

WikiLeaks. I love WikiLeaks.

[Cheers]

AMT: Maybe not so much for Donald Sr., now that new email revelations show WikiLeaks trying to cozy up to Donald Jr. We're asking how a side pushing for transparency ended up trying to pull favors. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Canadian soldier who reported workplace sexual misconduct facing loss of military career

Guests: Jennifer Bennett, Marie Deschamps, Emma Phillips, Vicky-Lynn Cox

SOUNDCLIP

I told you that I expected the results of this survey would be sobering and they are and they affirmed the reason why I made Operation Honour my first order as chief of defense that harmful sexual behavior is a real problem in our institution.

AMT: That is Jonathan Vance Canada's chief of defense staff. When he first took on the job in 2015 the armed forces was reeling from a damning review of sexual misconduct in its ranks. Within days General Vance launched the initiative you just heard him mention, Operation Honour. He also commissioned that sobering survey by Statistics Canada, a 43,000 active personnel questioned. 1000 reported sexual assaults within the past year.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm more motivated than ever to eliminate this behavior and the perpetrators from our ranks. My orders were clear. My expectations were clear. And those who choose or chose not to follow my orders will be dealt with through disciplinary or administrative action. And as far as I'm concerned I'm happy if they leave our ranks permanently.

AMT: Well as part of Operation Honor the chief of defense staff and other forces leaders called on victims to come forward. Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox was listening to that call.

SOUNDCLIP

Hi Girls, Vicky Cox here, driving over to make a deposition for assault. So, it takes a lot of courage, but it's easy. You hop in your vehicle, start driving to the appointment you made, and use all the courage you have.

AMT: The person that is from a video Vicky-Lynn Cox made in November of 2015. She posted it to an online group called it's just 700 dedicated to helping people who have experienced sexual trauma in Canada's military. Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox joins me from Ottawa to tell us what happened after that morning, hello.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Hello.

AMT: What did you report that day?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I remember reporting, that specific day, reported only on two cases because it was so difficult for me and I was so distraught. It took everything I had in myself to come forward especially not knowing whether or not I'd be supported on the other end. I knew the Operation Honour or had been launched but I didn't know yet how it was going to be received.

AMT: How many cases altogether have you reported?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Altogether I reported four cases. I reported cases that gave me a lot of fear of going to work every day; fearful of meeting the perpetrators in the hallway or getting posted again to a unit that they belonged to or are falling again under their orders.

AMT: So you're talking about four different individuals involved.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes.

AMT: And were they superiors, peers?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Some of them for peers and one of them was a superior actually.

AMT: So what happened next?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I remember doing that tape. Actually I had just left the coffee break to go report and I couldn't believe that that was my morning. How I was going to go to work put my uniform on and then leave work to go report some crimes.

AMT: So they took this under advisement? Did they come back at you? What happened?

VICKY-LYNN COX: No, initially they did take the cases down and they closed the investigations. But since then I've managed to get two of the cases reopened, that hadn't been closed and the investigation had not been closed and I was not satisfied with the outcome of it. So I pushed further to get those reopened.

AMT: So when were they reopened?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I had them reopened last spring.

AMT: So I just want to go back and I just want to clarify, are we talking sexual harassment? We're talking sexual assault?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Well they range from sexual assault to inappropriate touching, inappropriate behavior as well. So they're very quiet differently it. It just creates an unsafe working environment for the person going to work and serving the country.

AMT: And so originally they tell you they can't pursue any of them.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Originally.

AMT: Now sexual assault is very hard to prosecute. We all know that is. Was there a chance that there wasn't enough evidence for them to proceed or what kind of message are you getting from them?

VICKY-LYNN COX: In one of the cases, yes. And they said because it is very difficult to prove. Obviously when you are being attacked and usually the perpetrator doesn't do it in plain sight, in front of everyone. And so it's difficult for us. We are left with the burden of proof.

AMT: So has anyone been charged or disciplined in any way since you made that report in November of 2015.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Not as of yet.

AMT: And so you had to get a case to reopen. What did you have to go through to do that?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Basically I didn't take no for an answer. Once I snapped out of drinking my Kool-Aid and realizing that as a Canadian I still have rights in this country and one of the rights was I could talk to the next higher up and that's basically what I did, talked to my immediate supervisor and then I asked him “Can I talk to higher? and then I asked them “Can I talk to higher?” and pretty much every person I talked to I told them I told them “you're as culpable as the person doing this to me because you're not doing anything about it.”

AMT: By going further up the chain you managed to get them reopened?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I managed to get them to revise the cases and see and investigate a little bit more into what had happened. All I wanted in the beginning is accountability.

AMT: Are you able to be specific with me about the details of any of those incidents?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Not at this point because I do plan on having the other ones reopened as well. I just haven't gotten there yet. I am still recovering myself from all of this and it's taken quite a lot out of me throughout the years to make sure that accountability is being seen. I am mother as well have three children. I have a husband and I do have good days and I do have bad days. I'm hopeful in the end and that whether these people are shown the door or not that the accountability will have been taken.

AMT: You say you are recovering yourself. When you say that what does that mean?

VICKY-LYNN COX: My first incident, without going into detail about, my first incident happened three weeks into the military. From that point on I didn't really sleep soundly for the next 20 years. I'm approaching on 21 years of service. So I'm recovering from that. For years and years, I didn't say a thing and for years and years I tolerated the environment around me because of the love of my country and the love of my work. I love what I do and I love service. They became a point where I couldn't suppress it anymore and I couldn't go to work anymore without having these terrible panic attacks when I was going to go into the building where I worked. I just couldn't do it anymore.

AMT: So have you been diagnosed with PTSD because of what's happened to you?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes I have been diagnosed with PTSD. I was having these terrible night terrors and sweating through the night and my husband- I remember one specific incidents where it took him about 20 20 minutes to wake me up from my night terror. And that's when he looked at me he said: “That is it. You're going see your doctor.” And the diagnosis was immediate.

AMT: And what happened after that? was their support for you?

VICKY-LYNN COX: No there wasn't actually, sadly. And it sads me to see this. But no there wasn't. I remember going to the hospital and having a three hour appointment with a psychiatrist and in my mind I didn't have PTSD, because only members who went to war had PTSD. I left the meeting totally distraught, crying in the car and I can barely remember the car ride home and I didn't get any phone calls at home or I didn't get a phone call the next day from the health department to follow up.

AMT: Nothing to follow up.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Nothing to follow up. It was pretty much left to my husband's support at that point.

AMT: Is your husband in the armed forces as well?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes he is.

AMT: Now you waited until 2015 to report what had happened to you. Was that essentially because you didn't think that anyone would listen before that?

VICKY-LYNN COX: First of all I ever wanted to do is serve. That's all I wanted to do, just serving my country. I just wanted to serve. And I knew that that could jeopardize it, that coming out could jeopardize - it could jeopardize what my colleagues thought of me, the respect that that I had gained over the years as a technician. I knew that something would change and I was just not ready for that change.

AMT: So tell me about the work you were doing in the forces.

VICKY-LYNN COX: I was an aircraft structural technician.

AMT: What does that mean? What you do?

VICKY-LYNN COX: On F-18 F-18s. So metal tech refinisher, which is paints aircrafts and deals with composites, machinist, welder. Now they added on safety systems for it.

AMT: Interesting work.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes. Very interesting. Loved it. Love it. I love it.

AMT: Were there a lot of women doing that work?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Not so much. I didn't know at the time that I was joining a hardcore man’s thing. My parents always told me you can be anything you want in life. So when I joined I had no clue it was mostly men in it.

AMT: But you loved the work.

VICKY-LYNN COX: I love it. I really do.

AMT: And so were being discharged now am I right?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes I'm been medically discharged in May of 2018.

AMT: And why is that?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I just couldn't recover fast enough.

AMT: rom these incidents?

VICKY-LYNN COX: From these incidences. Yes.

AMT: What does that mean? Are you're losing your job?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Basically yes, essentially yes.

AMT: But the people who did those things to …

VICKY-LYNN COX: They're still in.

AMT: They've not been called on the carpet, nothing?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Nothing. No they have not been called on the carpet and they still gladly go to work every day.

AMT: How does that make you feel?

VICKY-LYNN COX: It makes me feel sad actually and quite disappointed and it makes me feel cautious and makes me feel, not frustrated in any way, I just feel a sense that I need to protect whoever's working underneath them.

AMT: One of the things that's changed since 2015 is that the force is set up a sexual misconduct response center. It's supposed to be an independent place for victims to go. Was that up and running when you reported?

VICKY-LYNN COX: It wasn't quite up and running. Operation Honour has come out in about two years ago and I came out shortly after that. Actually Operation Honour triggered me to come forward. It was all over the news, everyone kept talking about it and that just send me on the tailspin. I said I have to come forward. I just can't live with this anymore.

AMT: And that's where you made that video on your way.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Exactly. I made that video because I knew that if I, being a strong vocal woman, had a hard time standing up for myself and coming forward and speaking about this and starting the discussion, I could just imagine how many other women and men who are out there.

AMT: Did you ever feel you were supported through this process emotionally, logistically?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Not as much as one would hope for. They did do a shout out for us to come forward and talk about what we've been going through. But when I first went to see the doctor the doctor didn't know where to send me. And he said call this number, which I did, and that was the support center at the time. I called the number and they just told me to call the police and that was it.

AMT: And at some point you were advised to get your own lawyer.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Sadly yes. I asked for the advice of the judge advocate for the forces and asked for advice on how to navigate my grievances and how to come forward with this. And sadly the policies that are in place right now don't allow the judge advocate to help us out navigate our grievance process because it's not their mandate.

AMT: So who has been navigating with you?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I have been navigating myself and my support group that I have right now.

AMT: So again, you're being discharged. This is after the PTSD diagnosis. This is before the resolution of the complaints you made.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes yes. I was supposed to be out actually in September and they have a system where they can give you a little bit more time, if they think that your case is complex before they release you. And I was giving six months extra time to solve these cases before I leave the military.

AMT: Do you regret reporting that day back in November of 2015?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I was I was ready. I was ripe in that sense. I could no longer tolerate the environment and as strong as I am and my strength and in some respect was my downfall because I held on so tight and so much to my career that I didn't want to - I didn't want to report. But I have absolutely no regrets.

AMT: Someone listening to you might think that you went through all of that and you're out, and they would be afraid to do the same.

VICKY-LYNN COX: I don't think that presently it would it would go down the same path for anyone else. I think that slowly things are changing and this is why I'm speaking up and this is why so many people want to be vocal about this. There are wonderful people in the Canadian Armed Forces. A whole array of wonderfully intentioned people that are working for the CAF. And it takes everyone's involvement to make sure that this type of environment is not given to our children.

AMT: I'm going to be speaking with Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett next. What do you want her and other leaders to now?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Support. We just so so need it. And it was promised to us in February 2016 that there would be a support center for us and there wouldn't be clinic for us to go. And up to now I haven't seen it. The support groups save lives. These incidences that are very difficult to live with. And they touch many areas of your life. I know certainly for me it has affected me as a mother and as a spouse and…

AMT: When you say save lives what do you mean?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Suicide Prevention.

AMT: Did you struggle with that as well then?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Oh yes. Oh yes. One of my biggest symptom, when I am triggered or when there's too many people or the anxiety builds up is that my brain is injured to the point that it's it just wants to punch out. It just wants to give up. It is the personal strength that I have inside is says “Okay, no. Continue and tomorrow will be a better day”. And there are better days. I remember three years ago I was not the person that I am today.

AMT: But you're telling me you got there and you're on your own, not with help from the armed forces?

VICKY-LYNN COX: Well inadvertently they are helping. They are providing me with a psychiatrist. They are providing me with psychologists. They are providing me with a pain specialist. Because of the PTSD, now I have a lot of pain throughout my body. That's one of the effects of PTSD is chronic pain. So with that respect they have helped but I had to put my foot down, dig my heels real deep and say “you will help me I'm not getting out until I'm better.”

AMT: So do you think that the leadership is listening to those of you who've been through this?

VICKY-LYNN COX: I think so. I do believe so. I think that they're limited with their resources and they're limited with the manpower that they have to raise up some sort of support system for us and to give us hope. And this is why I'm coming forward and everyone has to get involved for this to work or else it won't. We should be able to eradicate this behavior. This is unacceptable and this shouldn't be and it's not allowing us to do our job properly.

AMT: So from your perspective is Operation Honour working?

VICKY-LYNN COX: From my perspective slowly I am thinking that it's working. It's going to take some long efforts and it's going to take more than just the leadership to implement. This is going to take all of us.

AMT: Vicky-Lynn Cox you have won awards for your service. What does the military losing by losing you?

VICKY-LYNN COX: They're losing a person that still believes in the Canadian Armed Forces values and still wants to help and is pretty much born to serve her country. They're losing that. They're losing a great mentor for other women and other young men that are in the military and they're losing expertise. They've paid to train me and they have a lot invested in me and just because, not just because, but I can get over. I can get better in time for them to continue employing me.

AMT: Sounds like a high cost.

VICKY-LYNN COX: Yes. It is. I am not the only one.

AMT: Thanks for speaking with me.

VICKY-LYNN COX: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

AMT: That is Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox speaking to me from Ottawa. The CBC News is next and then:

SOUNDCLIP

Since my report was filed, [unintelligible] felt that there is a real willingness to implement the necessary changes, the momentum is there at this time to take action.

AMT: Retired justice Marie Deschamps sounded optimistic when she tabled her report on sexual assaults and misconduct in Canada's armed forces. She's one of my guests after the news. I'll also be speaking with Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett who's in charge of implementing Operation Honour. So stay with us as we continue our progress report on the military's battle with sexual misconduct. I'm Anna Maria. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. Still to come:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: engine]

AMT: That is what it sounds, like driving on the ice road into Tuktoyaktuk on the northern tip of the Canadian mainland in the Northwest Territories. As of today, a permanent highway officially opens linking Tuk, as it's known, with Inuvik - 137 kilometers to the south. I'll speak with the mayor of Tuktoyaktuk about what that road means for his community. But first, fixing the armed forces.

SOUNDCLIP

My first incident happened three weeks into the military. From that point on I didn't really sleep.

AMT: That's from my conversation with Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox before the news. When the Canadian Forces launched its program called Operation Honour to eliminate sexual misconduct in its rank, it was to fix the kind of situation Sergeant Cox had put up with for years. She joined the military in 1996. She's an aircraft structural technician maintaining a fleet of F-18s. But she was subjected to sexual assault, inappropriate touching and harassment right from the start. Like many others she didn't report the behavior until in 2015 the launch of Operation Honour encouraged her to come forward. Sergeant Cox told us she suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and is being medically discharged from the forces. To respond to her story, I'm joined by Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett. She is director general of the Canadian Armed Forces Strategic Response Team on Sexual Misconduct, that's in support of Operation Honor. Rear Admiral Bennett is in Ottawa. Hello.

JENNIFER BENNETT: Good morning.

AMT: I want to talk to you about Operation Honor and the changes that have been made in the forces since 2015, but first how do you respond to what you just heard from Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox?

JENNIFER BENNETT: Any time that you hear the personal struggles and the experiences of a member of the Canadian Armed Forces it strikes you right to the core. As a woman in the Canadian Armed Forces and someone who served many years, like Sergeant Cox, in a male dominated environment, these struggles are very personal too to me and to all of us. You can only imagine what they went through, what they put up with and of course we don't know what we don't know until someone comes forward and speaks up. It takes a great deal of bravery for someone to make a report as you heard Sergeant Cox mention. And we didn't handle things the same way historically as we're working so hard to do now. At the same time when we have victims speak up and come forward, as General Vance said, that is exactly why we initiated Operation Honour. This is not a mission with an end date. This is putting all of our resources and engaging all members of the Canadian Armed Forces. This is what motivates us because we have to do more.

AMT: Do you think there were any problems then with the way her situation has been handled by the Forces?

JENNIFER BENNETT: I can't speak to all of the details because I don't have access to the medical files and to the legal and the military police to the extent that I can comment on proceedings. What I do know is that when her reports were made, and certainly when the incidents occurred, the majority of this was well before we had a number of the mechanisms in place with the systems and the knowledge and the awareness. We, our military police, didn't have the expertise necessarily in sexual assault or sexual based offenses. So we've had to ensure that our doctors or medical professionals, our counselors, lawyers, military police have all had specialized training.

AMT: Can you speak to why no one has been disciplined in her case?

JENNIFER BENNETT: I can't because I don't know the status of the files but I certainly know that corroborating evidence and having a reasonable assurance when charges are laid, that there will be a possibility of prosecution is a challenge in all sexual based offense cases. One of the options that we do have in the military, that is different from civilian police or civilian society, is that charges can be laid not just with the Criminal Code of Canada but with the code of service discipline. So there could still be charges that are related to conduct or to use of rank or those that might not fall under sexual based offenses. If the military police don't have sufficient evidence then it can be transferred to a unit level investigation. And we do specialized harassment investigations.

AMT: Do you think it's problematic that she's losing her job?

JENNIFER BENNETT: That is a challenge that even the chief of defense staff has identified, not just for victims of sexual trauma but for mental health. And any time that a member is being released it is an experience for them that can in some cases add to their struggles. And so as you know under strong secure unengaged the Defense Policy transition of all types is something that we're working on. And the chief of defense staff has issued direction for us to find ways to ensure that members aren't released when there are still ongoing medical proceedings legal or military police investigations and that we make sure that they're ready.

AMT: The chief of defense staff did say during a press conference just over a month ago that he was making changes so that troops who may not be deployable are still employable, and he addressed post-traumatic stress saying it should not be a barrier to serving the country. And yet she is being forced to leave her job.

JENNIFER BENNETT: So her release has been postponed and we continue to review her file and many others in the same circumstance. We did the same post-Afghanistan with members who had physical disabilities. We continue to accommodate members of the Canadian Armed Forces who do have medical issues, or who fail to meet what we call universality of service to be able to employ them in different ways. So that process isn't over in her case. And she is now posted to the Joint Personnel support unit where there are support mechanisms and administrative mechanisms that will kick into place between now and if and when she is released.

AMT: So in other words you're saying she may not be released. The military may hang onto her?

JENNIFER BENNETT: Well she eventually may still be released. But at a time that allows for her to have continued healing and to be reassessed. Each case is individual. I can't present a guarantee but the chief of defense staff has certainly directed that we make every effort.

AMT: And last year Sergeant Cox received the commanders’ commendation for what was referred to as exceptional achievements as a member of the special metals welding school. You heard her tell us what she thought the military was losing if she's leaving. You've been in the forces a long time. How did you respond to what you heard her say?

JENNIFER BENNETT: I can understand how she's feeling. When you meet her you see the passion and why she chose to serve and why she stuck with it for 20 years. And so I can only imagine that she feels that we've let her down. But at the same time she has said that it's very stressful to go to work that she found she couldn't work in that environment. And so we have to make changes to ensure that by having someone continue to serve we're also not giving them greater stress.

AMT: How big a problem is sexual misconduct in Canada's military today?

JENNIFER BENNETT: Well you know the results of the Stats Can survey. One of the challenges with sexual misconduct is that you don't know the extent and the prevalence unless victims come forward. What we are finding now is that we are getting far more reports and most recently 40 percent of our reports are now coming from third party. So people are watching and speaking up for others. So it is a problem that we share with other segments of society. We do have a male dominated environment but it has evolved for women in the Canadian Armed Forces. This is not just a women's problem. There are a significant number of male victims as well. We've had several attempts in the past to address this, and Operation Honour is the most comprehensive approach to this that has ever been taken, and across several lines. So awareness and understanding, response, support and prevention. It's also not simply my team who is implementing this. We're making sure that Operation Honor and these concepts are embedded in all we do.

AMT: You are aware, are you, of the media reports that some personnel call that Operation Hop on Her?

JENNIFER BENNETT: Yes. That was initially at the beginning of this and that, as the CDC and all of us said, that's exactly why we need to continue this. Because that was the level of immaturity and people just not being aware of inappropriate behavior. There's a far greater number of incidents of inappropriate sexual behavior than sexual based offenses.

AMT: Well why are people unaware of appropriate behavior? These are highly trained military personnel they're trained to kill. They're trained to fight in war for Canada. They're not 12.

JENNIFER BENNETT: Well we have a number of generations across our membership, because people can join as young as 16 and 17. So like many other organizations there's group think they get into an environment where they think that they have this warrior mentality and that's how you behave. But the military is based on an incredibly strong foundation of military ethos that we didn't hold people to account to in the past. And, as Madame Deschamps found, when you don't address the low level behaviors or the language or the comments then you have a permissive environment that allows these other things to happen.

AMT: Madame Deschamps did conduct the external review of sexual assault and misconduct in the armed forces. And in the spring of 2015 her report was damning. She made 10 recommendations. What has been done to implement those recommendations?

JENNIFER BENNETT: So a great deal has been done. The recommendations have been embedded within Operation Honour so they're still the core of what we're doing. The sexual misconduct response center was one of the central recommendations and that continues to evolve. We have worked extensively on training and education programs. She also made recommendations about implementing gender based analysis plus increasing the number of women. The chief of defense staff set a target of increasing the percentage of women by 1 percent each year over the next 10 years to achieve our target of 25 percent. We're about to have an auditor general review that has just started. So that will be another in external perspective for us. But we've made changes to the military justice system, to the training, for our military prosecutors, for our military police. We stood up sexual offense response teams. Victim support has always been paramount and we're working on programs so that we can address those anomalies that you heard from Sergeant Cox where she didn't have support.

AMT: I'm speaking with Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett in Ottawa. Rear Admiral Bennett I'm going to ask you to please stay with us I will come back to you. I have two other guests who've been listening in who I'd like to bring into this conversation. Marie Deschamps is a retired Supreme Court justice. As we've been discussing, in 2015 she conducted the external review into sexual misconduct and sexual harassment in the Canadian Armed Forces. She joins us from Montreal. Emma Phillips is a lawyer and partner with the Toronto law firm Goldblatt Partners. She acted as counsel to the external review on sexual misconduct and sexual harassment in the armed forces. She has also coauthored the reporting to workplace harassment in the RCMP. And Emma Phillips joins us from our Toronto studio. Hello welcome to you both.

MARIE DESCHAMPS: Good morning.

EMMA PHILIPS: Good morning.

AMT: Madame Deschamps what do you make of my interview with Sergeant Vicky-Lynn Cox and the response of Rear Admiral Bennett?

MARIE DESCHAMPS: When I hear the story of Sergeant Cox, it's just like remembering the number of stories that I heard throughout the review. So I'm not surprised by the kind of problems that she had. My initial reaction is that there is room for hope but also that there is a lot left to do. I say there is room for hope because she did report and she was able to have some of the cases reopened. However I still hear vividly the reason why she went to report. She said she was looking for accountability. And in my view accountability can be located at two levels; institutional accountability and also individual accountability. And then from the response of Rear Admiral Burnett I took a few notes and she says we don't know what we don't know until someone speaks up.” And also she mentioned that the current victims are well supported. I take these comments with a grain of salt because we don't know what exactly the current victims have for support. And that brings me back to one of the key recommendations of the report. It was a center for accountability. We called it CASAH. CASAH was meant to be home for the victims. That was the acronym for Center for Accountability for Sexual Assault and Harassment. But that meant also a very comprehensive approach for which all the responsibilities were given to the center. What was created is a center where people could report and where victims could get support. I don't think it goes far enough.

AMT: Can I ask you what impression of the forces were you left with, after you completed that report in 2015?

MARIE DESCHAMPS: The initial response I think was one of disbelief. But when General Vance was appointed in July of 2015, I think he took it very seriously. And I see that the senior leadership presently takes it very seriously. So that's a reason for hope. Whether there is resistance at lower levels that may be one of the explanation why did that not create a center for accountability, rather they created something of a wit much less responsibility which is a response center. Most of the responsibilities that were supposed to be granted to an independent external center are now still located within the armed forces. So if the military does not want to follow the recommendation then they need this independent body. And I read them there in their progress report; they are looking at the creation of an external advisory council. I don't think that this external advisory council will have the authority over the military. They will all give advice. Rear Admiral Bennett mentioned that they would ask the Auditor General for a review. I'm not sure that the Auditor General will have the same grasp on the cases as what was contemplated in the report. So independence is really key to determining whether there is or not accountability.

AMT: Emma Phillips I'd like to bring you in here as well. How much progress do you think the forces have made since that report in 2015?

EMMA PHILIPS: Well I think you know we need to start by acknowledging that there has been a very comprehensive effort. And I think that that has been genuine. It has been across the board at least from the perspective of the leadership that cannot be underestimated, the importance cannot be underestimated. I compare it a little bit to the work that I did in the RCMP, in Haussmann in the RCMP. There one of the main findings that we found was that the RCMP had initiated a myriad of different ad hoc projects. But there was no coordinated centralized effort to sustain those kinds of initiatives. And as a result there has been really no impact. And by contrast with Operation Honour, we see statements like where Admiral Bennett just made that this is a mission without an end. And General Vance has said the same thing this is a permanent mission. It's a very different attitude. In fact a number of the RCMP members that we met with called on the RCMP to initiate a kind of Operation Honour. They saw it as the model where we see I think now the concerns is an implementation. So if I can give you one example. They have stated that they're going to conduct a number of different surveys and examinations of specific subgroups where there may have been particular problems of sexual violence. And one of the areas that they identified is the Royal Military College and Justice Deschamps on her report found that there is a particularly toxic culture where harassment is almost a rite of passage. And you may recall also that shortly afterwards the station's report came out, Julie Lalonde, who's a very experienced sexual assault prevention educator, was asked to conduct sexual assault prevention workshops at the Royal Military College, this is just a few months after additional report. And when she went she was catcalled, she was harassed, she said it was the most hostile environment she had ever presented to. And so the Armed Forces conducted their examination and they released their report earlier this year and they found that there is no particular problem of sexual violence or harassment in the culture of the Royal Military College which was a somewhat surprising result.

AMT: Where's the disconnect?

EMMA PHILIPS: Well you know when you look at the team that was assembled to conduct this examination, the team or all senior military officers or retired military officers. Now if I'm a young cadet at the Royal Military College and I'm hoping to launch a career in the armed forces, am I really going to come forward to a senior officer to describe sexual harassment that I've been experiencing as part of the culture of the college? Now I can't I can't say whether that culture exists or doesn't exist. The problem is that by conducting this review, with that kind of a team, without an independent external body, we really can't rely on the results.

AMT: Marie Deschamps, how important is culture then when it comes to addressing this issue?

MARIE DESCHAMPS: It's the basis. There is hope but I think that there is room for improvement.

AMT: You have not done any interviews since you issued this report. Why do you feel it's important to speak about this now?

MARIE DESCHAMPS: Because a lot of time has gone by and I don't see enough changes and I still receive messages from victims who would like to see more changes and that is why I say that more can be done.

AMT: Emma Phillips, in terms of more being done do you identify any place where there are questions that are left unanswered when people's cases are closed? Do you have concerns about that?

EMMA PHILIPS: Well yes and you know what? One of the things that I noted in particular is that they have made significant strides towards reducing their unfounded rates in the military police unfounded rates. So those are situations where the police have determined that charges aren't going to be laid, the investigation isn't going to proceed. And so they've reported that they have significantly reduced their unfounded rate since Mme Deschamps’s report came out. But then when we hear for example Sergeant Cox talk about how she reported her assaults after Operation Honour started, the investigations were closed so those would have been unfounded cases. And it was only because she went and pushed and pushed and pushed with incredible courage to have them reopened that they were reopened. So that's exactly the kind of instance where I say we can't just rely on what's written on the surface. We really have to understand what's happening underneath.

AMT: Okay, we have to leave it there. Marie Deschamps and Emma Phillips thank you.

EMMA PHILIPS: Thank you.

MARIE DESCHAMPS: Thank you.

AMT: Marie Deschamps is a retired Supreme Court justice. In 2015, she conducted the external review into sexual misconduct and sexual harassment in the Canadian Armed Forces. She joined us from Montreal. Emma Phillips is a lawyer and partner with the Toronto law firm Goldblatt Partners. She joined us from our Toronto studio. Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett is with us from Ottawa. She has been listening in. She is the director general of the Canadian Armed Forces Strategic Response Team on Sexual Misconduct. Admiral Bennett is there something you wanted to respond to in what you just heard from my last two guests?

JENNIFER BENNETT: Yes I'd like to say that in the Canadian Armed Forces we agree wholeheartedly with what both of them said. There is still much work to be done. We have more motivation than ever and more reason to be continuing our efforts. So there is more work to be done. We're only starting. The Sexual Misconduct Response Center has a great deal of potential to evolve to take on more responsibilities. It was initially stood up six months ahead of the original schedule because we saw that there was a need for victims to have a place to go that was outside the chain of command. There are institutional changes ongoing and change does take time. Culture change is incredibly hard but we have leadership, commitment and vision and orders. We are holding leaders to account. We have relieved people of command leadership and supervisory positions. We are releasing members of the forces who've been found guilty of sexual misconduct related offenses. But we're only at the very beginning of what will be a very long journey.

AMT: Okay, well we'll leave it there. Thank you very much for your time Jennifer Bennett.

JENNIFER BENNETT: Thanks very much.

AMT: Rear Admiral Jennifer Bennett, director general of the Canadian Armed Forces Strategic Response Team on Sexual Misconduct. She joined us from Ottawa. Let us know what you think. If you want to share any stories with us, if you want to share your opinions on this as you listen to our first and second half hours today on this issue, you can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and stay with us in our next half hour. New revelations this week about communications between WikiLeaks and Donald Trump Jr. maybe changing the way some people view WikiLeaks. Investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill of the Intercept will join me to discuss that and as well we're checking in with the mayor of Tuktoyaktuk about his community's new road to the rest of the world. It opens today. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

New Tuktoyaktuk road life-changing for Arctic community

Guests: Mary Soderstrom, Darrel Nasogaluak

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti You're listening to The Current. For the people of Tuktoyaktuk on the coast of the Beaufort Sea in the Northwest Territories, the idea of a road connecting them to their southern neighbors has long been a dream. The only way to get into Tuk, as it's known by the locals, was by plane or in the winter by ice road. But all of that changes today when a new permanent road from Tuk to Inuvik finally opens. The CBC's Briar Stewart got a chance to drive that road before it opened earlier this year. This is a segment from her documentary that aired on the national last month.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Engine]

DEAN AHMED: Very few highways these have been built in the Arctic Circle.

BRIAR STEWART: For nearly four years, Dean Ahmed has been overseeing construction of the highway. It runs from Inuvik to Tuk and crosses coastal plains, teeming with lakes and streams which are frozen for most of the year.

DEAN AHMED: One of the characteristics of the design of this project is that you cannot disturb the tundra.

BRIAR STEWART: So Geotech stow fabric was used to protect and insulate the permafrost and then loads of gravel and rocks were layered on top. It made for a bumpy ride. When we were escorted up the still closed off Highway. Crews hadn't yet smoothed out this section. We weren't even halfway through our trip - ‘Yes that is flat’ - When one of our front tyres decided it had had enough. It will not make it up to tuck [chuckles]. The road won this round.

[Noise]

AMT: Well a spare tire did take the CBC crew the rest of the way there last month. Yesterday a delegation from talk got a chance to try out the new road ahead of the official opening and that included the mayor of Tuktoyaktuk who is Darrel Nasogaluak. And we have reached him in Inuvik today. Hello.

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Good morning.

AMT: Did you have any flat tires yesterday?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: No. We had a beautiful trip up.

AMT: What was it like?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: It was really amazing you know to finally have the road completed and be traveling on it.

AMT: Are you excited about this?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Absolutely. I hardly slept during the night. You know I just - it was even difficult to fall asleep. It's such an exciting day.

AMT: And so tell us how important the opening of this highway is to talk to Tuktoyaktuk?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Well it's something we've been looking forward to for over 40 years. You know the community had wanted this highway to happen for decades and it took a lot of hard work from a lot of good people. And we finally got the road approved. After four years of construction, it opened less than an hour ago.

AMT: And so you'll drive back on it officially today to sort of inaugurate it officially?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Yes we'll be driving back with some federal and territorial leaders there for the celebrations in Tuktoyaktuk this afternoon.

AMT: How fast can you go on that highway?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: It's rated speed limit is 70 kilometers an hour.

AMT: Okay. It's gravel still part of it like it's gravel right?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Yes it's all a gravel surface from here in Tuktoyaktuk, very similar to the Dempster highway.

AMT: Okay. And what do you think is going to happen to tourism in your community now?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: I think the very first summer is going to be quite a boom. You know I've heard from people all across Canada and some people from around the world, they are planning a trip up to Dempster and eventually ending up in Tuktoyaktuk in the Arctic Ocean.

AMT: And what's going to change for the community now that the people will be able to drive?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: A whole lot. You know we've always had a winter road that normally opens mid-December until mid-April, but this opens the access to the community year round. And it's quite something for us. It's an exciting time.

AMT: Is it going to make it easier to get supplies and is it going to do anything to the cost of food and other supplies?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: I believe it will. You know the stores won't have to stock as much. And occasionally you'll see them running out of certain things between the ice road in the barge in season. So they'll be able to replenish their shelves of items that they run short of more regularly and products will be able to come in at a better price.

AMT: I was reading something that said the annual savings of four individuals is like calculated to be like $1500 a year.

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Yes I've heard that too. And we're looking forward to the savings and just the all year access.

AMT: Do you see any drawbacks to having this road?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: I really can't see any. You know it's a win win. It's good for the community and it's good for Canada.

AMT: There were some people who have expressed concerns that it could bring in more alcohol or drugs. Are you concerned about that?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Not really. You know we have winter access and we don't really notice a change when the road is in and or when it closes. I don't believe that's going to be any difference.

AMT: And this road was originally, it was funded in 2012 by the Harper government it was intended to be for the road to resources. That's no longer the case, huh?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Yes. The Trudeau government has put a ban on offshore oil development. So the original idea of the road to resources highway, that's something that's been taken away from us. And I question Mr. Trudeau at the Town Hall in Yellowknife and he says when one door open others are correction, one door closes others would open. But we've still yet to hear what other opportunities will be. I mean tourism is always is good but it doesn't replace the oil activity we've had over the last 50 years.

AMT: Mayor Nasogaluak, what do you do beyond being the mayor, what do you do professionally?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: I'm what you call an observer communicator. I take weather observations and pass information onto arriving and departing aircraft.

AMT: Are there going to be fewer aircraft coming into town? Is this going to affect your job?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: I don't think it will. [Unintelligible] for an instrument rating an alternate for a Inuvik when they file and they fly into Inuvik, they need an alternative airport to go to that's close by. So I don't believe it'll change the operations at all.

AMT: A couple of years ago you had Metallica fly in, you think you get more you get more rock bands up there? Will they drive in?

DARREL NASOGALUAK: [Chuckles] I'm not sure it was – must have been 20 years ago or so.

AMT: Okay, well congratulations on the new road. Have a good ride back.

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Thank you. And I invite all of Canada to come in to Tuktoyaktuk and come to the Arctic Ocean.

AMT: Okay well thank you very much. Bye bye.

DARREL NASOGALUAK: Bye bye.

AMT: That is Darrell Nasogaluak, he is the mayor of Tuktoyaktuk. We reached him in Inuvik. He is driving back today. While a new road into a community like Tuktoyaktuk can bring great promise, it can bring peril as well. And it's an experience that communities all over the world have lived out for themselves. Mary Soderstrom is an author who has traveled many such roads for her research. She's the author of a book called The Road Through Time: The Story of Humanity on the Move. And she is in our Montreal studio. Hi.

MARY SODERSTROM: Hello. Good morning.

AMT: What do you make of the hope we just heard from the mayor?

MARY SODERSTROM: Oh well it's kind of sad to hear actually because I can understand being up there and wanting to have that link and wanting to make a go of living there. But it opens a lot of doors. First of all just in passing, I want to say we should take off our hats to the first people who actually came along there. Can you imagine going along that coast without knowing where you were going with no GPS with nothing like that? My book is a lot about how we didn't know where we were going when we went out just to settle the world. I take my hat off to the indigenous populations of the world. But one of the roads that I traveled to was a road in in in South America which had been talked about for years too. It is a link that essentially links the Atlantic and the Pacific across Peru and into Brazil. And to take a bus across it takes five and a half six days something like that. I took one stretch of it a few years ago, shortly after it opened, and the worry was that this was going to open up essentially drugs, alcohol, prostitution, all kinds of exploitation of resources which shouldn't be exploited. And so I wanted to see what it looked like. The part in Brazil had actually been in place for quite a long time, partly for kind of geopolitical reasons such as I think the Harper government wanted this road to be there for geo political reasons because it puts us on the Arctic Ocean. The Brazilians in the in the in the 80s and 90s wanted to make sure that their territorial claims in the Amazon basin were on the ground. And so Peru couldn't go into it.

AMT: What was the effect of that road?

MARY SODERSTROM: Well it's it opened up to the area to deforestation, beginning of mining and cattle ranching and soybean cultivation. Now this last link across the Andes, the idea was that would be able to grow things like soybeans in Brazil and ship them over to the Pacific and send them to Asia. Now when I was there - I was there just about nine months after the last link had been opened - and it was very interesting. There were parts of which were still pristine. Once we got over the Andes and into the Amazon Valley you could see where gold mining particularly and some legal or illegal logging had taken place because the waters courses had begun to silt up.

AMT: So you're making the point that there can be a downside. At the same time, do we have the right as a society to tell a group of people they don't have the same kind of access to the rest of the world that we do?

MARY SODERSTROM: That's a big question. It really is. I mean I think to some extent we look at it- Certainly we owe the indigenous population a lot, we as a society. But on the other hand this this highway cost $300 billion and 200 million came from Ottawa and 100 million from the Territory Government.

AMT: And it was supposed to be for Arctic drilling and access and of course the moratorium was brought in after the Deepwater Horizon blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.

MARY SODERSTROM: Well that's probably not a bad thing. There is another road though which has just been approved in the Northwest Territories that will go to mines to the west and it will go through the Nahanni National Park Reserve, and it supposedly has passed environmental reviews. The question is, is that going to cause problems there. I don't know. It's a big question.

AMT: These are issues that have to be watched carefully; as you pointed out we have to be aware of the downside as well as the celebration of a road.

MARY SODERSTROM: Of course.

AMT: In what way can roads be vectors of change?

MARY SODERSTROM: Well people travel them and they travel them with goods and they travel them with their ideas. And to some extent, I mean initially I think people went out to explore, to hunt and gather and then people started carrying things. And initially mostly it was really important stuff like obsidian to make tools and which travels you know 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago. We have evidence that obsidian was taken two thousand kilometers from one place to another quite quite amazing. And then bling people carried what was really valuable in terms in their eyes, in terms of decorative metals and stones like lapis lazuli. Up until recently was only found in Afghanistan. Lapis lazuli found its way to Egypt in the time of the pharaohs. You can imagine how you can carry it out of the mountains of Afghanistan and across all that territory and into... So that's one thing. But we also brought about ideas and seeds and then that's the way agriculture spread.

AMT: It is the story of humankind, isn’t it, the story of the road. We're going to have to leave it there but thank you for some insights, for offering us some thoughts on what to think about as we see this opening and all of the coverage of it today.

MARY SODERSTROM: Okay thanks. We wish them luck.

AMT: Okay. Bye bye. That is Mary Soderstrom. She Is The Author of Road Through Time: The Story of Humanity on the Move. And she joined us from our Montreal studio.

[Music]

Back To Top »

'Assange trying to curry favour with Donald Trump's inner circle,' suggests journalist on WikiLeaks messages

Guest: Jeremy Scahill

AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Well as far as embarrassing leaks go this one must sting. This week The Atlantic magazine published correspondence between WikiLeaks and Donald Trump Jr. from before and after last year's U.S. presidential election race. In a series of direct messages someone at the controversial leaked document website suggested to Donald Trump Jr. that his father contest the election results if he didn't win. There was also a suggestion that if Donald Senior won, he should pressure Australia to name WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange as Australia's ambassador to the United States. Jeremy Scahill is an investigative journalist and co-founder of the Intercept. He has done much reporting over the years on documents released by WikiLeaks and he joins me from New York. Hello.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Morning.

AMT: First of all can you walk me through what these direct messages were about.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Yes. So you have to remember that Julian Assange, the creator of WikiLeaks and definitely the kingpin in charge of it all, has been holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London for five years now. And you know the main reason that he remains there, as he's stated, is that he's concerned that the United States has a secret indictment against him on very serious charges, possibly espionage and that he could potentially get extradited to the U.S. and ultimately put to death in the extreme scenario. And so you have to understand that context before we talk about these Don Jr. direct messages because in the perception of WikiLeaks, Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state was like Public Enemy Number One for WikiLeaks and was pursuing Julian Assange and there was a big battle. So part of what I think we're seeing is Assange trying to curry favor with Donald Trump's inner circle, maybe to try to harm Hillary Clinton. It was part of the agenda. But I think it a bigger picture Assange and Wikileaks were primarily concerned with their own survival and so what you see in this is Julian Assange encouraging the Trump campaign to leak to WikiLeaks Trump's tax returns which he still hasn't put out now, saying that it would be it would flip the narrative if WikiLeaks were to release his tax returns rather than a liberal news outlet like MSNBC. Assange as you say, suggested that he should be named Australia's ambassador to the United States and then he yesterday joked that he would open a hotel style embassy if they did this with immunity suites for whistleblowers. What I find sort of most bizarre though was when Julian Assange or WikiLeaks, we don't know who was sending these direct messages…

AMT: I was just going to say now we're not sure it was Julian Assange.

JEREMY SCAHILL: You know and at this point it's irrelevant because Assange has his own the content of it and has been tweeting about it, and he didn't disavowed and say “oh that was one of my underlings” so in a way it's sort of irrelevant. But you see Julian Assange also suggesting to Don junior that if Trump loses the election that his father should blast the news media for its role in election rigging. And in that way would keep alive his ideas. And to me that was sort of the most disturbing part of it on a moral level. Because it's like I look at this and I say “What on earth are you thinking?” I mean the Trump campaign was waged on a kind of overtly fascist authoritarian racist agenda. WikiLeaks is supposed to be this transparency organization that's about justice. What are you doing hopping into bed with these people. What they don't say - these direct messages - is anything about collusion with Russia. And yet everyone's off to the races with that narrative in the United States. In order to say it's about Russian collusion, you have to then believe something that there actually is no documented proof for. And that is that Vladimir Putin or the Kremlin is somehow running Julian Assange which quite frankly - knowing Julian Assange and covering WikiLeaks for all these years - I don't think he is being directed by anyone except Julian Assange.

AMT: Okay well. I want to play a clip for you. CIA Director Mike Pompeo characterizing WikiLeaks and Julian Assange earlier this year.

SOUNDCLIP

It's time to call out WikiLeaks for what it really is: A non-state hostile intelligence service, often abetted by state actors like Russia. In January of this year our intelligence committee determined that Russian military intelligence – the GRU had used WikiLeaks to release data of U.S. victims that the GRU had obtained through cyber operations against the Democratic National Committee. Now Julian Assange and its kind are not the slightest bit interested in improving civil liberties or enhancing personal freedom. Assange is a narcissist who has created nothing of value. He relies on the dirty work of others to make himself famous. He is a fraud a coward hiding behind a screen.

AMT: There's a lot in that and Jeremy Scahill to talk about but the idea that Julian Assange - this was created for transparency. This was created for an ability to see what governments were up to, for journalists to hold people to account, for four people who believed things were happening, to be able to whistle blow. Has Julian Assange hurt the role of WikiLeaks?

JEREMY SCAHILL: I think that his actions in the past year and a half, to my mind, indicate that either he's sort of losing it because he's - I don't know what but being five years holed up in you know in a room inside of an embassy and never being able to walk outside. I don't know what that would do to my mind. But I think part of it has to be what happens when one is sort of in isolation for five straight years. The other part of it though is I think being holed up in that embassy, Assange has fought to continue to maintain the relevance of WikiLeaks and he's incredibly done it. I mean they're still releasing CIA documents as you and I speak this morning. So but here's the thing. The United States government right now is trying to define who is a journalist and who is not a journalist, who's a publisher, who's not a publisher. They're forcing Russia's RT network to register as a foreign agent in the United States. They're trying to criminalize what Wikileaks has done. And even though I disagree, and I'm sort of dumbfounded at some of the recent conduct of WikiLeaks, I think that any journalist who is piling on the attack against WikiLeaks is going to regret it later. Because what the US gov't is doing to WikiLeaks now they could easily do to a more reputable - you know in the public eye - news organizations. So I wouldn't say that Wikileaks is a news organization but it definitely is a publisher. And I'll tell you this whether or not those dot those leaked documents or hacked documents from the DNC and Hillary Clinton's top people, whether they were hacked by Russia or leaked by someone is irrelevant to publishing it. I would have published those e-mails as well. Now the question is did Assange know? If these were hacked by Russia, did Assange know that? That's an important question. He claims that that he knows that they did not receive them from the Russian government. But his answers on it are always sort of cheeky. You know did you get it from an intermediary but are you aware of where you're getting this. To me intent is an important point here. But simply publishing these - No. Any responsible news organization is going to publish leaked documents or at least a bunch of those leaked documents. I don't necessarily need to know John Podesta risotto recipe. But you know anything that's relevant to American politics, it should be public.

AMT: But you know he did hang on to it, he said it's coming. He timed the release of specific documents.

JEREMY SCAHILL: As a lot of news organizations would, I mean the New York Times or The Washington Post regularly will time a story to be published on the eve of big testimony of someone who's trying to be confirmed as CIA director or someone else. So I really I think part of it is there's one set of rules for WikiLeaks where journalistic timing seems nefarious when Julian Assange does it, but perfectly logical when the New York Times does it. I mean I reject that part of this. The idea that news organizations aren't timing their releases for their publications for maximum impact and news value.

AMT: And at the same time I'm hearing you really defending WikiLeaks. I'm guessing there was a time when you didn't think he would have needed to have done that. Assange personality has gotten into this.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Yes. I mean well I'm defending some of what I think are defensible tactics that are not unique to WikiLeaks. As I've said I really - for the life of me - do not understand what Julian Assange thinks he's doing right now. Because whether it's true or not he is giving the perception to many in the world that he was totally in bed with Donald Trump. A man who I think objectively speaking is a dangerous threat to the world being president of the United States. To me on a moral level I'm just like “Julian what on earth are you doing?” But WikiLeaks also has this history of publishing some of the most important national security leaks of the modern era.

AMT: Well I didn't have Chelsea Manning we wouldn't have Edward Snowden, right?

JEREMY SCAHILL: Exactly. I mean Chelsea Manning risked life in prison, potentially the death sentence, to leak hundreds of thousands of top secret cables and a video showing overtly war crimes being committed by U.S. forces including killing media workers in Iraq from the Reuters news agency. You know Assange is sort of torching I think a lot of the very defensible noble actions of WikiLeaks by getting involved with Donald Trump Jr. and talking about being ambassador and advising them on to contest the election. It's like, to me, as someone who has defended WikiLeaks, has met with Assange in the embassy, has covered all of these stories I really am sort of left like saying “Okay well the clock is ticking on my patience for what you're doing here because I really can't co-sign it”.

AMT: And before I let you go, Donald Trump Jr. did not respond to all of those…

JEREMY SCAHILL: He responded three times. He had three responses. He did post one link that Assange had sent him early on. And in fact 15 minutes after one of the messages were sent to Don Junior was the first time that we heard Donald Trump the candidate saying: “Ah I love WikiLeaks. This WikiLeaks is great. Did you guys see the WikiLeaks?” Clearly they were listening to what Assange was saying. But you know there's nothing in here that indicates any criminal activity or even Russian collusion on the part of the Trump campaign. It all boils down to: Does Assange know where he got the documents? What was the intent? And was there more communication with the Trump campaign than we see in you know sliding into Don Junior's DM as that as the kids would say these days?

AMT: Okay. Jeremy Scahill Thanks for your insights.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Thanks for having me.

AMT: Jeremy Scahill investigative journalist, co-founder of the intercept, host of the podcast intercepted and we reached him in New York City. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for q. Today, The guest host is Ali Hassan who speaks with award winning young adult writer Jason Reynold's about his latest novel Long Way Down. Now we were talking about the road to Tuktoyaktuk, so we're going to end today's show with a musical tribute to something that will be easier for residents to do and that is Road Tripping by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Incidentally, as of yesterday Google Maps could not calculate the drive from Tukwila to the Chili Peppers hometown of Los Angeles. It is there now however.It shows 5851 kilometers of road, or a drive of 72 hours, Tuktoyaktuk to LA. So there you go. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Song: Road Tripping by Red Hot Chilli Peppers]

Road trippin' with my two favorite allies

Fully loaded we got snacks and supplies

It's time to leave this town it's time to steal away

Let's go get lost anywhere in the U.S.A.

Let's go get lost, let's go get lost

Blue you sit so pretty West of the one

Sparkles light with yellow icing, just a mirror for the sun

Just a mirror for the sun

Just a mirror for the sun

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Wednesday November 15, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This