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The Current Transcript for October 17, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Happy to take some questions from media now.

REPORTER: Veronica Tang from Global News. My questions are actually for Minister Morneau.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I’ll take them.

CROWD: [laughs]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Awkward. It isn't every day that the prime minister makes it clear that the finance minister who's right behind him and can hear him tells reporters that he'll be answering the questions for his minister. As he tried to control the communication yesterday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau seemed to underline just how much the message has been out of control. Liberal finance plans that were supposed to highlight concerns for the middle class have ricocheted into the hands of a gleeful opposition. In a moment, a panel of people who track this assess the fallout. Also today, the mother daughter bond that saved them both.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA LINDHOUT: My core is my mother. Every day in captivity I would have conversations with her in my mind. I knew that my mom would never stop trying. I knew my mom would never give up.

AMT: For 460 excruciating days Amanda Lindhout and her mom Lorinda Stewart each fought to stay strong, believing the other needed her to. Amanda held captive in Somalia, Lorinda home in Canada. They now belong to a small and unenviable group of families that know what it's like to face ransom demands at home while a loved one is being brutalized half a world away. Hear their insights into that world and their own relationship in half an hour. And he came home from war only to discover indifference from prospective employers.

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VOICE 1: Companies just don’t hire soldiers, they don't know what to make of them. So I said I'm going to be the company that does that.

AMT: In about an hour, our project Adaptation meets the man who turned to construction to build a future for himself and other returning soldiers. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

Back To Top »

Why Trudeau took questions directed to his finance minister at tax reform conference

Guests: Paul Wells, David Cochrane, Susan Smith

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

ANDREW SCHEER: Local businesses are the backbone of Canada. From your first job to new starts to building something we can all be proud of. They’re where so many people work and they're worth fighting to save. The Trudeau Liberals are threatening local businesses with big new tax hikes. Now I won't just stand by and let the Liberals drive them into the ground. I’m Andrew Scheer, that's who I am and that's why I'm fighting to save local business.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Well, small business has become a big issue in Ottawa this fall. That was Andrew Scheer, the new Conservative Party leader, positioning himself in that ad as a small business champion. Yesterday Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tried to do the same, standing by his Finance Minister Bill Morneau he announced a small business tax cut. One on which his Liberals had campaigned of 1.5 per cent. But it didn't exactly come as business as usual. The Liberals have been reeling from a small business backlash to propose tax reforms. And the perception that the Liberals are out of touch with working people was only compounded this past week by news about the Finance Minister’s personal finances. We have three guests standing by with their thoughts about how all of this is affecting the Liberal brand. David Cochrane is a senior reporter at CBC's parliamentary bureau. Paul Wells is a senior writer covering politics for Maclean’s and Susan Smith is a political strategist and a principal at Blue Sky Strategy Group. In the past she has been a Liberal staffer who advised cabinet ministers. They all join us from Ottawa. Hello.

MANY VOICES: Good morning. Hi.

AMT: David Cochrane, let's start with you. Walk us through exactly what the federal Liberals announced yesterday.

DAVID COCHRANE: Yeah, you know, if the July tax reform proposals were the flamethrower yesterday was meant to be the fire extinguisher, or at least the start of the fire extinguisher. Because they've had a difficult couple of months and what they rolled out in July was essentially all take and no give. It was going to be a series of measures that would take money away from people, whether you agree with the principles or not that would be the net result. And so yesterday they started with some give back. They announced a cut to the small business tax that would roll out over the next year and a half, from ten and a half per cent to nine per cent. They scrapped one of their more contentious proposals on changes to the lifetime capital gains exemption which was very unpopular with small businesses and family farms and fishing enterprises, because the owners of those argued that these measures would make it hard to pass on your family business to the next generation. So they've completely scrapped that one. And they said they're going to go ahead with one of the issues that upset doctors in particular, the concept of income sprinkling, spreading the income of an incorporated business around family members to lower your overall tax rate. They're going to go ahead with that and they’re promising some clarity on that later in the week. And the essential reassuring message if you can call it that was that if you are legitimately working in a company for a fair wage you have nothing to worry about, if you are simply being used as a tax shelter for your business well then you're going to have a problem. And the prime minister was there and probably their best messaging on it yet to date when he said the people are not the problem the system is the problem, we're going to fix the system. Their struggles going back to July is that it looked like they were targeting people and it was handled in such a way that allowed their critics to say that they were calling hardworking Canadians tax cheats.

AMT: So what do you make of the fact that the prime minister was front and centre and essentially saying I'll be answering that and the finance minister was right there.

DAVID COCHRANE: Yeah that was awkward. I mean, I think there was a few moments where everyone in our newsroom kind of gasped as we were watching it. But Trudeau is their best political weapon, so he was deployed to their toughest political battle right now domestically anyway. And the way it was explained to me by a government official was that they needed to get their top line on the ice and the problem with the way that went down yesterday, to stretch the hockey metaphor, is that Trudeau was trying to be Wayne Gretzky and Dave Semenko at the same time. He was trying to be the star who scored all the goals and also the enforcer who is delivering the elbows to protect Bill Morneau. It was fascinating to see people want to ask questions to the finance minister and Trudeau saying I'll take that. And then when someone else said well I really would like to talk to the finance minister, and say well you get a chance to talk to the prime minister. And it was a very aggressive approach to dealing with it. But I think it shows you just how sensitive they're taking this now, because this started as a brush fire it's turned into a wildfire. And Trudeau is the guy they're counting on to put it out.

AMT: Well I’ll keep skating with those metaphors. Paul Wells, what were you thinking as you watched this?

PAUL WELLS: That this has really been a big problem for the Liberals. I mean, the almost the problem with this issue is that it's not a total stinker. There is a lot of widespread support for the general notion of bringing the moderately affluent down a notch and making sure that everyone pays the same amount of taxation. So it was possible to believe that in the absence of, you know, really granular polling on the matter, it was possible believed the Liberals would actually be quite happy with this controversy because it would rally their base. But you don't airlift three cabinet ministers to a swing riding on the first day of the parliamentary week, thus ensuring that the prime minister will be absent for Question Period. You don't send them into a family owned Italian restaurant if this issue is going well for them. They essentially decamped to Pierre Poliviere’s political territory. The Conservative finance critic had actually used a pizza parlor for a video in which he talked about how this was going to hurt family businesses. So they essentially, in a political campaign you look at what they're saying and you also look at where their feet are, and their feet are were in a riding that used to be held by Paul Calandra of the Conservatives. And it showed that they're really worried about the effect that this is having on the incremental Liberal vote, the people who didn't who Liberal for a decade did vote Liberal in 2015 and might be convinced not to vote Liberal again.

AMT: But why has this issue of tax reform become so controversial for Bill Morneau and the Liberals then Paul?

PAUL WELLS: Because it threatens to detonate the central branding of the Trudeau Liberal Party. In 2014 at the Liberal convention in Montreal, Justin Trudeau began his big speech to that convention, his first as the leader of the party, by talking about a fictional middle class woman named Natalie who was worried about her bills and how she was going to make ends meet. And he said that this was a party that was going to stand up for the middle class against the fat cats. He got a journalist named Chrystia Freeland to run for the party, she had famously written a book called Plutocrats, in which she talked about how easy life was in the United States for the very rich and how hard it was for everybody else and how that gap had been growing. And now we've got a government that isn’t that concerned about bringing the very rich down a notch. As a matter of fact, this is a government that is awfully eager to go, whose prime minister is awfully eager to go and hobnob with the very rich at Davos and in Seattle and in Muskoka cottage country. And it's only the kind of moderately rich, the sort of aspirational the getting along pretty well, the kind of upper upper middle class that a lot of Canadians can legitimately aspire to that seems to be in this government’s sites. And this prime minister and this finance minister have not a lot to say when they're asked what are they going to do about the tax advantages that they have spent their life exploiting?

DAVID COCHRANE: Mhm.

PAUL WELLS: And that's a big problem.

AMT: Susan Smith then, why can't they quell this storm? What mistakes have they made in introducing all of these changes?

SUSAN SMITH: I think they made quite a few mistakes right from the get go in July. First of all there was the timing. But I think primarily they didn't seed the ground. When the policies were announced this summer, it was a fix in search of a problem that people didn't think they had. So I was thinking, you know, I was last year or yesterday I was talking about 1995 and the fiscal wall that we were up at as a country. And when the tough budget came down in ‘95 we knew as a country we were ready for it and we needed it. When the government rolled these initiatives out this summer, the ground hadn't been seeded, people didn't think that there was a massive tax issue. So people were surprised, caucus was surprised, MPs were surprised, I think some ministers were surprised. And that doesn't bode well when you need your army of people to go out and sell the story.

AMT: So you're saying they side swept their own people?

SUSAN SMITH: Perhaps unintentionally, but I do think that's what happened. I also think it hadn't been gamed through entirely, looking at who would be impacted by this. I think there, you know, there were some officials who’d done some topline calculation about who would be impacted. But when farmers, small businesses, there were unintended consequences of the initial proposals when they came out. Now they're trying to pull that back. Now they're trying to fix a problem that they didn't mean to create. I do believe by the end of the week these issues will have been addressed, but there seems to be a slow trickle on the announcement for what these overall policies are. When they rolled it all out in July, it was a big reveal. Here are three things that we're going to tackle. This week it's Small Business Week, so they've announced the first element, which is the reduction in the small business tax. That's a great headline to get. Unfortunately it was a page three headline not a page one headline. And there's more issues in more detail that's to come, and I still think there's a bit of confusion there for people about what is to come. I'm hoping again, like I said, by the end of the week all of that clarity will be there when it comes to income sprinkling and passive investment and the capital gains thing. I mean, we know that one's going to be struck and that farmers will be fine. But the government needs to get that message out pretty quickly.

AMT: In the meantime yesterday the opposition parties had a field day in Question Period. Listen to NDP MP Nathan Cullen.

SOUNDCLIP

NATHAN CULLEN: You know, the finance minister seems so very forgetful these days. He forgot that cutting small business taxes was a promise that he ran on. He forgot he owned a luxury villa in France but hey, what middle class Canadian hasn’t.

[Sound: crowd clapping]

NATHAN CULLEN: And he also forgot to tell us that his vast wealth was not in fact in a blind trust and he only comes clean when he's in a world of trouble. So why does this forgetful finance minister never remember his promises to Canadians but always remember his ways to protect his own wealth.

[Sound: cheering and clapping]

AMT: David Cochrane, the Conservatives and the NDP have really been able to capitalize on the Liberal’s tax policies and the performance of their finance minister.

DAVID COCHRANE: Yeah, they're really going after them on the ethics of things like the villa controversy. To correct Nathan Cullen, Bill Morneau did declare that he owned a villa, he did not declare that it was owned by a corporate structure which is a great irony when you consider what these tax reforms are actually about. I mean, he uses a corporate structure in France for tax benefits and he forgot to disclose that. Then there was the revelation in The Globe and Mail this week that Morneau’s vast wealth is not held in a blind trust the same way that a lot of politicians including the prime minister do that. Now he says this is following the instructions of the ethics commissioner. But, you know, that's obviously not going to calm down the opposition. I mean they're really trying to paint the party of the middle class as the party of the millionaires with this. Especially with the prime minister and with the finance minister, because the reality is that's kind of who they are. And as Paul said earlier, they're not going after a certain tax advantages for things like family trusts the way they are for incorporated small businesses. So there is an argument of hypocrisy that is being thrown at the Liberals constantly and consistently. And then through a series of communication failures Anna Maria, whether it's about these tax reforms, the screw up with the whole idea of taxing employee discounts last week that got floated out by CRA and then stamped on by a series of cabinet ministers to stop it. It's a communications problem that just underscores the areas of sort of institutional weakness for the Liberals that the Conservatives and the NDP are going after.

AMT: Paul Wells, to what extent is Bill Morneau becoming a liability for this government?

PAUL WELLS: Well, pretty considerable extent because on the other hand what does he bring as an asset? He's been a lousy question period performer forever. It's never been clear that budget decisions are his decisions. For the exact reason that was acted out yesterday at the Italian restaurant in Stouffville. It's reasonable to assume that the big decisions are made by Justin Trudeau or by Justin Trudeau's entourage. Morneau’s big thing that he brings to the table is that he can talk to big investors, that he's a fellow of the corporate world and that he can land big investment, notably through this big infrastructure bank project that the government is ushering along. But in the absence of payoff from that bank, and there's not likely to be any until next year, and incidentally the arrival of President Trump has made Canada slightly less attractive as an investment destination. So maybe it'll never pan out. All we've got is Bill Morneau, he keeps showing up on the front page of the paper for not quite doing his paperwork. And for being super rich and going after the moderately rich. And, you know, I mean it's not super balanced in his favour these days.

AMT: Susan Smith, what do you think?

SUSAN SMITH: Well, you know, a week’s a lifetime in politics. But you also get over these weeks. I think Bill Morneau was brought, came to politics and came to the government with a view of doing good public service. He's a man with a strong business background, I think you want a finance minister with a strong business background. He's had a lot to learn in terms of Question Period performance. But I think fundamentally Canadians want a finance minister who's going to steer the economy in the right direction. And last I checked our economy was growing. We're halfway, it's funny, you know, I checked my calendar this morning October 17th, the election was two years ago and the next one two years hence. We're halfway through the mandate. So I think the government and Canadians have 24 months to figure out are they better off? Has their finance minister and has their government left them better off or are they worse off? Is the country in a better or worse state and are their families in a better or worse state? And that's a decision that's going to come over the next 24 months, and it's not going to come based on one weeks or two weeks of bad press.

AMT: Paul you've made the point that the Conservatives had been focusing on Omar Khadr, and they shifted right over to finance small business now as a tactic.

PAUL WELLS: Yeah. So in the summer when the Liberals, when the government settled with Omar Khadr, Andrew Scheer announced that he was going to spend the fall riding that issue because it was so awful for the Liberals. We’ve heard barely a word about Omar Khadr this fall. And it's not because Conservatives aren’t still angry about that but it's because they found a better issue. And it's because the Liberals didn't get elected on a promise of judiciously finding the proper settlement for out-of-court settlements with people who spent time in Guantanamo Bay. They sure did get elected as a government that would fight for the regular Canadian against the plutocrats. And as I say, this issue goes some distance towards detonating that branding. Not simply because the tax issues are contentious. They were always going to be contentious. But because of the personal life stories of the prime minister and the finance minister and their inability to come up with concrete answers for why their measures wouldn't affect people like them and they would affect people like, you know, the owner of your restaurant and the farmer who brings the food to your table and all these people who, all the people in your neighbourhood that you learn about in kindergarten, why is the government going after them?

AMT: David Cochrane, we're talking about plutocrats. Chrystia Freeland did actually write the book on how to spot a plutocrat. Why have they been so reluctant to bring in tax measures that would hit that miniscule percentage?

DAVID COCHRANE: I'm not 100 per cent sure. I know they backed away on things like stock options, which was something that they were hot on in the campaign largely because the tech sector which is a key part of their innovation agenda said look, this is the way for startups to get people and offer them, you know, potential for big payoff down the road and this will choke off our ability to grow and get the talent that we need. So they were sort of talked out of it on that one. But as to why, I don't know why they've backed away from going after the plutocrats. The criticism I've seen though of the way they're doing tax reform is that they're doing it piecemeal. Like in their first year they did the child benefit, they raised taxes on the one per cent and cut it for the middle class and this year you're doing this. You kind of need to do this all at once so that it's comprehensive and people can see the full picture, rather than pick apart bit by bit by bit. And that's kind of the situation they found themselves in where specific individual measures. And let's face it, taxes are very confusing for people. Tax law is very confusing for people. It's hard to sort through the facts of who's right and who's wrong. But when you have young women doctors and farmers saying that these changes will hurt our enterprises and stop us from having families and stop us from doing all the things that make life worth living. That's a bad narrative for a government that prides itself as a champion of the middle class.

AMT: Susan Smith, it's a bit of an irony huh? Because they brought in the guy from Bay Street to show they could understand business and that very thing is what their opposition has been able to poke holes in.

SUSAN SMITH: Yeah. No it is, it definitely is ironic there. I think the Bay Street guy has shown he does understand business. But I think what there were definitely some unintended consequences of this tax reform. I mean, I'm a small business owner, I wasn't happy with what was rolled out this summer. I remain optimistic that I'm going to be happier with what gets rolled out this week. I don't think this government and I don't think fundamentally people think this government wanted to go after doctors or wanted to go after farmers or wanted to go after women on mat leave. That is not the philosophy of the government. And I think people are being a bit disingenuous if they accuse them of that. Now, it's possible that people could say well look at what they've done. But I think they're going to undo that. And that's what's important. The legislation has not come forward, it's not been put through. And as people always like to say, the devil will be in the details. But I think ultimately those small business people, those farmers those doctors, those women saving for maternity leaves will feel better, will be more reassured and continue to have confidence in the economy. That's the overall objective right? Grow the economy.

AMT: And what about having the tenure though, what do the Liberals have to do now?

SUSAN SMITH: Well they have to show that they're listening. They started yesterday by meeting with their caucus members. People were unhappy and they got it better this time and I don't know if they got it 100 per cent right, but people left feeling better. They called a caucus meeting, they invited MPs to come and be briefed at 8 o'clock yesterday morning. Caucus day in Ottawa is normally a Wednesday. So the MPs who had been uncomfortable before left feeling a little bit more comfortable. They too will hear more of the details as the details are unfolded because that's the nature of public policy. But I think it's fixable. It's going to take some time there may be some long term damage in some quarters. But I do think it's fixable.

AMT: We'll have to leave it there. We'll have to see what happens in Question Period today. We'll see who's listening and who’s still got questions. Thank you all of you.

MANY VOICES: Thank you.

AMT: David Cochrane, senior reporter in CBC's parliamentary bureau. Paul Wells senior writer covering politics for Maclean’s. Susan Smith, political strategist and a principal at Blue Sky Strategy Group. They joined us from Ottawa. Let us know what you think. You can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook, go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. The news is next. And then Amanda Lindhout endured an unthinkable ordeal as a hostage in Somalia. Back home her mother was going through her own unimaginable ordeal. Insights from a mom trying to get a kidnapped daughter home when we come back. This is The Current.

[Music: Extro]

Back To Top »

'Hope is something that I never gave up on': A mother's fight to free daughter Amanda Lindhout

Guests: Lorinda Stewart, Amanda Lindhout

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, a personal story of Adaptation as part of our season long project. It begins with one retired soldier and leads to a construction company that hires Canadian Forces veterans to help them adapt to civilian life after deployment abroad. But first, a mother's worst nightmare and her undying hope.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: There's a small and exclusive club of people, a club none of us would want to join. Of people who know what it's like to experience freedom after being held hostage. Last week Canadian Joshua Boyle and his American wife Caitlan Coleman and their three children finally experienced freedom after five years in captivity on the Afghan-Pakistan border areas. My next guests are some of the only people who can truly understand the horror and heartbreak they may have experienced. On August 23rd of 2008, Canadian freelance journalist Amanda Lindhout was kidnapped in Somalia with Australian photographer Nigel Brennan. They were held hostage for 460 days. Last week Amanda Lindhout faced one of her accused captors in a Canadian courtroom, where he is on trial for his alleged role in her kidnapping. Ali Omar Ader, a 40-year-old Somali national was the man on the other end of the phone while Amanda's mother Lorinda Stewart negotiated for her daughter's life. The court released the audio of some of these calls last week.

SOUNDCLIP

ALI OMAR ADER: What about if I marry her?

LORINDA STEWART: I need to have my daughter come home. Her father is sick and we need her to come home. We are the only ones trying to get money because our government won't help us.

ALI OMAR ADER: We want the money. We want money.

LORINDA STEWART: OK. Adan, can I speak with Amanda?

ALI OMAR ADER: Yes you should speak but with a limit time.

LORINDA STEWART: Oh Adan, thank you.

AMT: Lorinda Stewart says she had a mantra that she repeated to herself day after agonizing day. She told herself quote, “each day is one day closer to bringing Amanda home,” end quote. It helped her cope throughout the worst moments. And one of the worst most desperate moments was also played in court. I warn you this is difficult to hear. It is Amanda Lindhout calling home begging her mother to come up with the ransom. And she does refer to torture.

SOUNDCLIP

LORINDA STEWART: Amanda. Amanda.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Mommy, mommy, mommy. [unintelligible]

LORDINA STEWART: Amanda.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Things have changed here mom. You need to retrieve the money now, you need to pay the million dollars. They’ve started to torture me.

AMT: It is an unbearable call for a mother to receive. Lorinda Stewart never gave up however, she never relented in her efforts to bring her daughter home. And now she is sharing her side of that story in a new book One Day Closer: A Mother's Quest to Bring Her Kidnapped Daughter Home. Lorinda Stewart is here with her daughter Amanda, who has written a bestselling book about her experience called A House in the Sky. We've spoken before when Amanda and Lorinda shared the audio from that awful phone call the first time. Hello to you both and welcome.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Hi.

LORINDA STEWART: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: I'm not going to get into the specifics of the trial but it is under way. And I'm wondering how you are both coping right now?

LORINDA STEWART: I'm actually feeling quite relieved. It's behind us now so. Leading up to it was pretty tense, but now that it's behind us I feel great.

AMT: Amanda.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Yeah. You know, it was so many years in the making. It was accumulation of many years of anticipatory anxiety that led to my time on the stand facing that man. And I too feel a sense of relief that my part in the trial is done, and it's about a week later that I'm talking to you. And as the dust is settling I actually feel, and this is kind of exciting, like a deep healing has taken place. Something has changed inside of me, I feel that in like the deepest parts of my being and I'm looking forward to see like how that develops.

AMT: Last week Canadian Joshua Boyle and his American wife Caitlan Coleman and their three children were rescued after being held captive in Afghanistan for five years. Lorinda what did you think when you heard that news?

LORINDA STEWART: Well I felt great relief for his parents, and of course for the family feel so much compassion towards them because I know what it's like to be a parent in that situation. And I also feel kind of bad for all the harsh judgments surrounding the whole case because none of us actually really knows the details.

AMT: Mm. The last time I spoke to you we talked about the tremor in your voice that I hear today. That is directly related to what you went through as the mother back home in Canada trying to get your daughter released.

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah. After Amanda came home I developed this tremor and it does affect my voice. It's stress related and it’s hopefully getting better.

AMT: It's a reminder of what loved ones go through on the other end when they don't know what is going on and they're trying to find a way to get them home.

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah, it's a tremendous amount of stress.

AMT: Were you in touch with the Boyles at all?

LORINDA STEWART: I actually talked to Josh’s sister at one point in time. That was a couple of years ago.

AMT: To try to offer some insights and ideas?

LORINDA STEWART: Yes, yeah.

AMT: Amanda, you're one of the very few people who can relate to what Joshua Boyle and Caitlan Coleman might be feeling. What went through your mind when you heard they were free?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Wow what a moment. I mean, I saw the headline and I was quite overcome actually by emotion. I have followed that quite closely over the years. And I'm so overjoyed for them that they have their freedom and yet I, like my heart is breaking as I'm seeing, you know, the first images of their kids and just imagining how difficult reintegration is going to be for them after such a long time. And yeah I, you know, I can't and I won't speculate about, you know, what they have been through or even where they're at. Only in my experience it was a really difficult road coming back. And, you know, I have a lot of admiration for them. And I just wish them nothing but the best.

AMT: But people should never assume that it's an easy road back.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: In my experience it was a very difficult road back and it sometimes still is even eight and a half years later.

AMT: Lorinda, their reunion with their parents is something not a lot of people will understand. What was the moment like for you when you finally saw Amanda after her 460 days in captivity?

LORINDA STEWART: Often people ask me about that moment. And I know they're picturing a Hollywood moment of us running together and embracing and laughing. And it's actually the image that I held for 460 days. But the reality of moment was much different because I was so shocked when I saw my daughter. It was clear that she had been extremely traumatized and she is very weak. She was extremely thin. And it was a moment of realizing we still have a long road of healing ahead of us.

AMT: Because as much as you knew a little bit and you were part of that ongoing negotiation to get her free, to actually see her standing in front of you and to understand on another level physically was hard huh?

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah, it was a shock for me. But it was also a moment of relief of joy and horror all at the same time.

AMT: Amanda what do you remember about that moment?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: You know, I'm hesitating because there's tears in my eyes right now. I mean, I'm sitting here next to my incredible mother who rescued me and gave me life and saved my life. And I'm imagining how hard that moment must have been for her to see me like that. And it just kind of breaks my heart. I mean, it was such a difficult time for all of us. And when I hear my mom talk about it again, yeah like that was the reality. It was it wasn't a homecoming that was really joyous and happy. It was new challenges every day, like who I was going to be in the world and, you know, our relationship and you imagine the incredible dynamics that play, like the guilt I felt for what I had put my family through. You know, like it was a hard time.

AMT: Lorinda Stewart, can you take us back to day one? How did you find out Amanda had been kidnapped?

LORINDA STEWART: I was living in BC and I was visiting a friend, and Amanda’s father John had called me and told me to turn on the TV, that it was on the news that Amanda and Nigel had been kidnapped.

AMT: And that's how you found out.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes. It was a very surreal and horrifying moment.

AMT: You didn’t really know where to turn at the time.

LORINDA STEWART: No I didn't know where to go. So I actually went straight to her father’s house, which is about a nine hour drive from where I was.

AMT: Initially the RCMP set you up in a house, they rented a house as a command centre, and you were the lead negotiator on the phone calls with one of her alleged kidnappers. The man now on trial. How were you able to stay calm during the calls that you had to take and the calls you had to make?

LORINDA STEWART: I was trained by Canada’s top RCMP negotiators. And they had trained me that on the calls to stay calm, because if I cried it would make them realize they were manipulating me emotionally and if I got angry they said it's that can cause Amanda to be hurt. So I actually maintained calm voice throughout the entire time which is even a surprise to myself now.

AMT: Mhm. And eventually the RCMP dismantled that command centre and they left you on your own.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes they did.

AMT: You have mixed feelings about what the RCMP did and its entire role. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

LORINDA STEWART: Yes. The RCMP negotiators that lived with me 24/7 and were all very kind and very supportive. But I make a distinction in the book between the RCMP and Ottawa, because Ottawa was the command centre and I ever knew who was making the decisions. But all direction came from Ottawa.

AMT: And we talk about this now and you look at it in hindsight. But I'm wondering as a mother who's going between Alberta and BC, and your daughter’s somewhere in Somalia. And I'm just wondering how you would get through every day or even the next hour in the midst of that? How did you maintain hope that you could actually get her out of there?

LORINDA STEWART: Hope is something that I never gave up on. I never for one moment considered that she wouldn't come home. And that became my strength and my determination that I wouldn’t even think anything other than that. Basically when times were the most difficult, after some of my phone calls with Amanda or Adam as his name was, the Somali negotiator. I would keep bringing myself to gratitude. Which may sound odd but it was when I would start to think about all the things I had to be thankful for it raised my optimism. And it just helped me stay optimistic that she was going to come home.

AMT: But you couldn't even tell anyone, her dad and his partner knew. But you weren't allowed to tell her brothers knew, but you couldn't, nobody was supposed to know what was going on behind the scenes. There was a news blackout. You really didn't, you weren't able to lean on a lot of people.

LORINDA STEWART: No, I my support system at the time that I lived in the operational centre was the RCMP officers that were with me. When that came to a close, then I was a very small group of friends that I confided in as my support group.

AMT: Tell me about the pink party.

LORINDA STEWART: Well the pink party was a party that I dreamed about when Amanda came home. Her favourite color was pink. So I got together with a handful of her closest friends and we planned this huge pink party where we would have a pink Christmas tree, pink pinata, everything would be pink for Amanda. And that was one of the things that helped keep me going everyday was just picturing this party that we would all be at when Amanda came home.

AMT: And when she got home you realized you couldn't just throw that party so quickly.

LORINDA STEWART: No. She was extremely sick. And I also had a pretty huge breakdown after she came home.

AMT: Amanda, reading your mother's book is like piecing together two halves of a puzzle, her experience and yours as you try to read each other's minds across the distance. How strong was your faith, when you were in captivity, that your mother would find a way to free you?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: [crying] The experience of captivity for me and the isolation and the solitude made me go really deep, you know, to see what I’m made of and what matters to me in life. And I will tell you there's nothing, my core is my mother. And I felt a connection to her, every day in captivity I would have conversations with her in my mind. I would, you know, I named my book A House in the Sky because I wrote about this world in my imagination that I built where anything was possible. And in my house in the sky I was with my mom every day, and I knew that my mom would never stop trying. I knew my mom would never give up. I thought, I knew also it might take a long time and I was like just trying to steady myself for the fact that like my mom who, you know, at the time of my abduction was working in a bakery in Nelson, British Columbia wasn’t going to come up with some vast amount of money. But I knew she'd do everything she could to try. And then she did it, you know, like it's just it still blows my mind and it touches me so much.

AMT: And there was actually a point in the book where you realized later you lost months because each family was allowed to send some kind of letter, the Brennan family to Nigel, your family to Amanda. And there was a reference to a story and houses that it made it look like the Brennan family had more money than they did.

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah. [clears throat] It was a colossal misunderstanding and something that was missed. Early in Amanda’s kidnapping, I think it was probably about October, we were able to send a care package to Amanda and Nigel. So in that care package Amanda's family put letters and Nigel's family did the same. What happened was the RCMP had combed through our letters to make sure there was nothing that could be misunderstood. But apparently the Australian Federal Police had not done the same with the Brennan’s letters. So Nigel’s nephew had written a story in school, it was a story of three little pigs. And it was kind of his updated version, he had an award so he wanted to send that to his uncle. In the story it was the typical three little pigs with the straw house, stick house, and brick house which the wolf blew all of them down. But at the end of story the three little pigs got a one million dollar reward. Now, when Adan got that he considered that a document that the Brennans had a million dollars. And all of the time we were negotiating, we had no idea that they thought the Brennans had this million dollars. So everything that we offered was rejected.

AMT: And it wasn't until later when you went to, when the RCMP moved away from this case and your family and the Brennan family engaged private contractors to try to get Amanda out that somebody said let's hire a translator.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes.

AMT: Changed everything.

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah, it changed everything. Honestly if we would have had a translator much sooner in this whole ordeal I'm sure we could have avoided massive misunderstandings.

AMT: It's an extraordinary part of the story huh. Amanda we have talked about this before but can you remind us the kind of conditions you were held in?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Yeah. And it's very fresh in my mind after, you know, the last couple of weeks preparing for testimony. I mean, the conditions varied from bad to absolutely appalling. You know, there was a period where I was held in an animal shed that where there was feces all over the floor, a very dark place, you know, alone. I was held in a series of dark rooms, the darkest of them being pitch black. You know, they had even taken black plastic garbage bags and sealed the windows so that no light would get in. I was being starved. I was held in rooms with rats. I was being sexually abused every day. I mean, it was a living hell. I was tortured while I was in captivity. I was unable to wash my own body. I mean, it was terrible.

AMT: How did you maintain your sanity as the months went on?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: It really became about mind control at a certain point, because yeah you like, even for me now all these years later looking back, I kind of marvel at I think it's just like our body and our brain's ability to get through that kind of thing. Like I was able to create this house in the sky, which wasn't insanity it was a better alternative than that, but it was a very detailed life that I lived in my head and it really got me through the days. And in that place, in my house in the sky, I could see my mom, I could eat a nice healthy dinner, I could go for a run in Stanley Park in Vancouver as I always pictured it. And that's quite literally how I got through the days. I mean, I was in chains I couldn't move my body, like what do you do? And I found, you know, recreating the world in my mind, remembering the beauty of the world that I had been so fortunate to experience before I had been abducted and everything that I hoped to go on and do. And, you know, and ultimately truly like the dream being reunion with my mom.

AMT: When you realized that, that that was what kept her going Lordina what did you think?

LORINDA STEWART: Well that's the same vision I held. And in fact the name of my book One Day Closer was my mantra was one day, today is one day closer to Amanda and Nigel coming home. And after Amanda came home, she told me that that had been her mantra as well.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Isn’t that so cool? I mean, we love, I just, when my mom told me of the title of her book like I just cried because it's so perfect that, and you think about that connection right? Mother daughter connection. She is here in Canada. She comes up at a certain point with this mantra, quite literally saying to herself at the end of every day one day closer. I across the world, you know, once things got so dark that became my mantra too. It was like well no matter how long I’m going to be in here, you know, one year or ten, this day is done and I'm one day closer to my freedom and to going home.

AMT: Amanda Lindhout and Lorinda Stewart, stay with us. I'm here with Amanda Lindhout and Lorinda Stewart in Toronto. We have to pause for a short network break. Lorinda Stewart's new book is called One Day Closer: A Mother's Quest to Bring Her Kidnapped Daughter Home. We're going to continue our conversation in the next half hour, and find out a little bit more about how Lorinda Stewart found the strength not only to cope with this ordeal but to get on the phone and to negotiate when she had to. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Extro]

AMT: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current. In our last half hour I was speaking with Amanda Lindhout and her mother Lorinda Stewart. Amanda of course was kidnapped in Somalia in 2008, she was held hostage for 460 days. Today one of her alleged kidnappers is on trial in an Ottawa courtroom. Ali Omar Ader of Somalia was the man on the other end of the phone when Lorinda Stewart negotiated for her daughter's life. Last week the court heard audio of a phone call between Amanda and her mother made immediately after Amanda had been tortured. A warning, this is hard to hear.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA LINDHOUT: [unintelligible]

LORINDA STEWART: Amanda listen to me. We are doing everything that we can. We will not stop until you come home. I am so sorry that it has taken so long Amanda. Adan promised us that they will take care of you.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: No.

LORINDA STEWART: Amanda. Amanda we love you. We have offered half a million dollars. We have sold everything that we have. We are trying so hard Amanda. We are trying so hard.

AMT: Lorinda Stewart never wavered in her fight to bring her daughter home. And she is sharing her story in a book called One Day Closer: A mother's Quest to Bring Her Kidnapped Daughter Home. Lorinda Stewart and her daughter Amanda Lindhout are with me in Toronto. Lorinda all you knew is what you heard in those phone calls, and occasionally they would give Amanda the phone. How did you cope with what you heard in her voice?

LORINDA STEWART: When I heard Amanda’s voice on the phone, I intuitively thought that she would try to sound as strong as she possibly could for me, just as I was trying to sound confident and strong for her. There were times of course in some of those calls, where they were very horrific calls where Amanda was being hurt when she called me. So when I heard her voice pleading like that it was extremely difficult. But I had to stay focused on that day that she would come home because if I broke down and I fell apart then I couldn't help her.

AMT: Mm. And you knew by talking to her that she was still alive.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes.

AMT: And that you needed to focus. You didn't have an easy life long before this kidnapping. What happened in your childhood?

LORINDA STEWART: I had experienced sexual abuse from my grandfather. I lived in poverty most of my life. I at a young age left home, I joined a religious cult. Actually when I joined that group The Children of God, my desire was to help bring love and light to the world. But as a 16-year-old I was easily deceived by that group. So and then after I left that cult after six years, I ended up in a couple of very abusive relationships. So it's been a long journey but I feel that each thing that I've experienced in my life has made me a stronger person, strong enough to hold myself together and bring my daughter home from being kidnapped.

AMT: I was just going to ask you how much that passed allowed you to be strong. You knew how to be strong.

LORINDA STEWART: Yup.

AMT: You've also had PTSD though, it hasn't been easy.

LORINDA STEWART: No. PTSD, I don't have that as much as anxiety. A lot of anxiety and sleepless nights. It’s gotten better over the years, I developed this tremor a couple years after Amanda came back. So I had quite a few health issues. But honestly life is so good today, it all seems minors.

AMT: I see that in your face when you tell me that. In the end how did you arrange for Amanda's release?

LORINDA STEWART: We negotiated a ransom payment. My family and friends, Amanda's friends on this side of the world here in Canada, we managed to raise around 600,000 dollars. So there was the ransom that brought her home. We also had to pay the private security company and all the costs incurred in bringing her home. So ultimately 600,000 was about half of the entire cost of everything.

AMT: Looking back now how do you feel about the help you received from the Canadian government?

LORINDA STEWART: I'm very grateful for all the support that I had through the RCMP. I really struggle with the choices that Ottawa made in assuring me that they were very close to having Amanda released. I also felt threatened that if I sought out a different avenue I was actually told that they would drop our case. So it was very hard to leave the RCMP, but at a certain point in time they realized and we realized that we weren't making any significant progress.

AMT: You now belong to I guess I don't know if a club is the word, but a small group of people who've been through this.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes. And I have spoken to a few different families that have found themselves dealing with the kidnapping of a loved one. And it's something that I would have greatly valued myself during that period of time. So I would like to make myself available to talk with other families.

AMT: It's interesting because you wanted to reach out to Mellissa Fung and her family after Mellissa Fung, a CBC reporter, was kidnapped and then after her release the RCMP told you not to and they were telling her family not to as well.

LORINDA STEWART: Yeah. And I understand to a degree because each case is different and how the government their strategies they used would be different in each case. But at the same time for the sake of humanity they maybe could have given us guidance in our conversations. But they definitely should have allowed us to speak.

AMT: You write that you feel guilty about trusting the Canadian government and delaying hiring private hostage negotiators.

LORINDA STEWART: Yes, I really went through a dark time after Amanda came home when I realized that a lot of what we had been told by Ottawa wasn’t the reality of their situation. And but I trusted them, they had an impeccable 17 year record of bringing hostages home. That coupled with what I felt was a threat over us that we couldn't go outside the box that they had us in. And I just felt really guilty because if I take had taken a stand and gone on our own to hire the private security company she wouldn't have been in captivity for so long and suffered so much.

AMT: Amanda what's it like listening to your mother say that?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: We've had this conversation so many times over the years and yeah it's quite heart wrenching to hear her say that. To imagine that she, like the real hero of this story, would feel any sort of guilt after really doing like the impossible and bringing me home out of there, that she would feel that way. Just I mean it makes my heart ache a little bit and then what I tell her and I'll tell you is my truth, that I have really come around to accept that, you know, I have some belief that, you know, we are on some sort of a divine path. And I was in Somalia for exactly how long I was supposed to be to get the lessons that I needed for the next part of my life and purpose on the other side. And I've really chose to see it like that. Like that is an experience that I went through in my life and there is like can be meaning and purpose and that too. And none of it can be changed so why try to change any of it? Or like, you know, 460 days was what it was, and like I'm working with that and I'm OK and it was what it was destined to be in my life. And so there is no, it shouldn't have been any different than it was in fact in many ways.

AMT: Toward the end of Amanda's time in captivity, Lorinda, the man you knew as Adan who's currently on trial, writes in an email we have battled a fight, please forgive my part. Is this about forgiveness?

LORINDA STEWART: During this whole period of time many people have said to me about trial, I hope this brings closure. So I started to wonder what does closure mean? And ultimately to me closure is forgiveness. That's when you can put it down and let it go.

AMT: Amanda what do you think?

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Every day is different for me. You know, I've talked a lot about this and I'm certainly going through a period right now where I have had days that I've been challenged by the concept of forgiveness as it relates to my kidnappers. I mean, seeing him in court it brings up a lot. And so forgiveness is the goal. Forgiveness is like what you work towards. And on the days that you can really feel that fully there is freedom in that, I know that to be true for myself. It's the only way I can really be free from what happened to me is when I can let go of that anger attachment.

AMT: And after everything you both have been through, what kind of faith do you have in humanity?

LORINDA STEWART: Actually I probably have more now than I've ever had because of all the people, all the good people that stood with me and helped me bring Amanda home far outnumber the handful that held her. So my faith in humanity is even larger than it's ever been.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: For me I had the experience of going through, really as did my mom, but like some of just the worst of humanity I mean interpersonal violence. Like you really wrestle with like how you, when you see people who act like they don't have a conscience. And then it was quite an amazing experience to go from that reality to coming back to Canada and understanding how my freedom had come to be, which had been through the absolute best of humanity, this collective kindness, compassion, and generosity. This which I also feel by the way is very like it's very Canadian and, you know, like that was, you know, I'm from Alberta and that was Albertans, Calgarians primarily actually, you know, getting together and saying like this person matters. And I mean that was so overwhelming to me because I'm not talking about, you know, five people, yeah there was a small group of big donors, but like thousands of people gave what they could, whether that was 5 dollars or a hundred dollars or, you know, some large donors really made things move and helped me come home. But every one of those people saved my life.

AMT: It's important to hear both your voices. There are more people, as we know, Canadians and others who get kidnapped. It's important that we know what all sides go through as the little headline in the news doesn't explain it all does it? Thank you for coming in.

AMANDA LINDHOUT: Thank you so much.

LORINDA STEWART: Thank you.

AMT: Thank you for sharing your stories.

AMT: Lorinda Stewart, the author of One Day Closer: A Mother's Quest to Bring Her Kidnapped Daughter Home. It's out today. Her daughter Amanda Lindhout is the author of A House in the Sky. And they joined me in our Toronto studio. In that book by Lorinda Stewart, we learned there was one song in particular that Amanda would think of during her darkest times because it made her think of her mom. And that song was Because You Loved Me by Celine Dion.

[Music: Celine Dion]

AMT: Celine Dion with Because You Loved Me, a song that reminded Amanda Lindhout of her mother as she endured her 460 days in captivity in Somalia. Coming up in the days ahead I'll be speaking with Van Jones, lawyer, activist, political commentator in the US on CNN who made waves during the last presidential election night.

SOUNDCLIP

VAN JONES: This was many things. This was a rebellion against the elites. True. It was a complete reinvention of politics and polls it's true. But it was also something else. This was a white lash. This was a white lash against a changing country. It was a white lash against a Black president in part. And that's the part where the pain comes.

AMT: Van Jones. He's now written a book about his country and it's deeply polarized state, Beyond the Messy Truth: How We Came Apart, How We Can Come Together. He's calling for both the Democrats and Republicans to find common ground. Although finding it with Donald Trump may be a problem.

SOUNDCLIP

VAN JONES: I think there's effectively zero common ground with President Trump, because even when you identify the common ground it moves. So for half an hour there was common ground on a deal to keep the DREAMers in the United States, and then that moved. So even when you can find stuff with him it doesn't stay very steady. So Trump is here, he'll be gone at some point, in four years, eight years, you know, maybe Ivanka runs and she’ll be there for a while. So maybe you have, you know, 16 years of Trumps, you know, the worst possible scenario. And then that’ll be over then what are we going to do? You know? Because tomorrow always comes. So then when the pendulum comes back to us how are we going to govern? How are we going to make a 300 million person democracy with every kind of human being ever born living in one country, with technology changing everything, with the climate in chaos, with geopolitics changing. On what basis can we turn to each other and not turn on each other?

AMT: Tune in to hear my conversation with Van Jones in the coming days.

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Ex-soldiers build on veteran skills to create successful construction company

Guests: Matt Austin, Brendan Lannon

[Music: Adaptation Theme]

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Our season long project this year is Adaptation. And we're going to feature some of your own personal stories of adaptation. Stories of the ways we've all had to adapt our lives to change, big and small. For soldiers returning to civilian life the transition can be challenging. One retired Ontario soldier has done something about that. He's found a way to keep himself and some of his former colleagues engaged and employed when they return from duty, adapting their skills as warriors to construction. Our producer Ines Calabrese went to Toronto's Union Station to meet the founder of Legion Construction and his employees on the job.

MATT AUSTIN: Let’s do it Dan.

[Sound: smack noise]

MATT AUSTIN: Oh I’m Matt Austin, I’m the president of Legion Construction incorporated out of St. Clements, Ontario. So tonight we're installing three 55 inch screens inside of the Union Station area, which is right alongside the road here. And they’re going to be on an elevated position, so we're working at height generally about ten feet, ten feet up.

[Music]

MATT AUSTIN: So we were all a group of soldiers, for the most part, that went together, we fought together, we lived together, we slept together, and we went to combat together. And now that we've pretty much retired unlike the Roman ways of getting farmland, we've now formed our own company and we have it’s staffed by mostly veterans now. Afghanistan, Kandahar, Afghanistan, 2006 2007, and then 2008 2009.

VOICE 1: Almost draw a line straight out.

MATT AUSTIN: We were there right with the infantry companies as engineering support for anything from breeching to any suspect exposed, exposed to suspect items that were found, including searching and area searching. You see a lot of things and people that I fought beside they've seen some stuff they can't forget. We've all shared in some incidents that we cannot forget and we'll never forget. And you are going to always see, no matter how hard you try you're always going to see it and that's OK. And, you know, that's why we have who we have in our company is because we can talk about these things if we're really feeling not really a hundred per cent.

[Sound: equipment beeping and hydraulic lift]

BRENDAN LANNON: So my name is Brendan Lannon, I’m an operator with Legion Construction, that’s my full time job and on the side I'm still in the military. Coming on my 12th year now with tent field battery, which is part of the 56th field regiment located in St. Catherine's. I've been with Legion just over a year now. I figured it's a easy job to do because being outside is what I do in the military, so I don't care if it's raining sideways on me or snowing or cold or wet. Lifting heavy things, you know, even operating equipment you have to, you need to pay attention. Because you don't want to hurt yourself or anybody else and it's same with the military. You have to be able to supervise effectively and operate things properly.

[Music]

BRENDAN LANNON: You know, I thought I was pretty tough and everything and then like I'm yeah going to go overseas, I’m going to fight the good fight and do my part. And I got over there and I realized alright little man time to pull up your socks, you're actually here. But it was definitely an outstanding experience because I learned a lot about myself, and I learned a lot about other people. I was detachment third in command of M777 howitzer, so Canada's largest artillery gun. Takes about ten guys to man the gun at full strength. And each round weighs just over 100 pounds.

[Sound: men screaming, artillery shots]

BRENDAN LANNON: We fire at a rate of 11 rounds a minute. Situational awareness, being aware of the situation. You know, we train for a year to go overseas and you have this heightened sense of awareness. And you don't lose it.

[Music]

VOICE 1: What else we got to do Adrian?

[Sound: machine noise]

VOICE 2: Line these up, and check these connections.

MATT AUSTIN: I guess it wasn’t, I didn't really fully realize what I'd gone through, and you know I didn't know how initially it affected me mentally. You party, you have a great time, you're happy to be alive. I mean I honestly didn't think I'd make it home. Before you know it, you would never say it and your friends necessarily wouldn't say it because they care about you so much and they saw what you did. But yeah you have an alcohol problem after that when you come home. You just you keep hitting the bottles and, you know, I don't drink, I haven’t touched a drop now in years, I’ve decided I went cold. There are guys out there that are probably still wounded, mentally wounded, and they're still hitting. You know, that was a low point for me because I was still trying to find work now as a guy who has a degree like everyone else does. And nobody wanted to hire a soldier, nobody.

[Music]

MATT AUSTIN: Companies just don't hire soldiers. They know what to make of them, they don't know how to read military resumes and so forth. So I said I'm going to be the company that does that. I’m going to be the guy that, you know, helps the other guys. I want to be the person that helps, because I know what it feels like to be rejected like that and to go down the hole. So that's why we started up Legion Construction. And we’ve been very successful ever since. Constantly hiring veterans and soldiers and they like it here.

VOICE 1: Yours or mine?

VOICE 2: Yours.

VOICE 1: OK, here we go.

VOICE 2: Good? Perfect.

AMT: Matt Austin, Brendan Lannon from Legion Construction on the job there. We want to hear about your personal Adaptation stories. Be in touch with us, head to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent, click on the contact link and put Adaptation in the subject headline. We may feature your story here on The Current later in the season. That's our program for today. Remember you can take The Current with you to go on the CBC Radio app, you can browse through past episodes of our show, you can start listening in just a few seconds. Free from the App Store or Google Play, the CBC Radio app. Now today we just heard about the Legion Construction company hiring soldiers returning from the frontlines. So we're going to leave you with a word from Prince Harry. His Invictus Games for wounded soldiers from around the world were held in Toronto last month. This is a part of the prince's speech at the closing ceremony when he addressed the competitors. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti thank you for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

PRINCE HARRY: Right now you're on a high at the summit of a mountain many of you thought was too high to climb. You have done it.

[Sound: crowd cheering]

PRINCE HARRY: This is the moment right here right now. Shoulder to shoulder you are Invictus. Games.

[Sound: crowd cheering]

PRINCE HARRY: These games are not about gold, silver, or bronze medals. They never have been. They're about the journey that you and your families have made to the start line. Going home it might be tough as the excitement fades, but you have faced so many great challenges before, it'll be a breeze. As I've said many times, once you've served you are always serving. And on your return home I want you to set a new Invictus goal. Make a plan about how you're going to use the experience of this week to help lift up all those around you. It might be something big like starting a new project for young people or it might be something small like reconnecting with an old friend. It doesn't matter how big or small your step is just take it.

[Music: Extro]

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Tuesday October 17, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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