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The AIH Transcript for September 20, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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JD: Tonight:

HM: A country's broken heart. Much of central Mexico is rubble after yesterday's powerful earthquake; I'll speak with a resident of Mexico City who's been providing help among the ruins.

JD: First sideswiped, then hit head-on. It didn't get the brunt of hurricane Irma, but today, Puerto Rico suffered the full force of Maria, and one San Juan resident who rode out the storm tells us what he's seeing.

HM: A battering — and battered — ram. As “Raging Bull” showed, the late boxing champ Jake LaMotta lived a life of violence in and out of the ring — and tonight, a friend remembers a man who was almost impossible to put down for the count.

JD: A place you can't visit, revisited. Myanmar's former information minister dismisses claims of ethnic cleansing of Rohingya Muslims, saying observers would see the truth if they entered Rakhine state — which they're not permitted to do.

HM: Uncaught in the act. When legendary CFL receiver Tony Gabriel tries to re-enact his famous Grey Cup winning catch for an ad, he kind of regrets being cast — because he winds up in a cast.

JD: And… blow hole in the ground. It's odd to find a porpoise on land, odder still to find one buried in it since the 14th century — and now, one of the researchers who made the surprising find is trying to unravel the plot. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that knows sometimes great discoveries happen accidentally on porpoise.

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Back To Top »

Part 1: Mexico earthquake, Jake “Raging Bull” LaMotta obit, Tony Gabriel Grey Cup re-enactment

Mexico earthquake

Guest: Andres Zurita

JD: Efforts to pull people from the rubble around Mexico City continue today. The death toll is now in the two-hundreds after yesterday's massive earthquake, and it is expected to rise. This earthquake comes on the heels of another just two weeks ago. Andres Zurita is one of those who jumped into action to help rescue those trapped in crumpled buildings. We reached Mr. Zurita in Mexico City.

HM: Mr. Zurita, what is the mood like in Mexico City right now?

ANDRES ZURITA: Right now, people feel panic. People are concerned about all the people that are still in the buildings and also people are very proud of all the other Mexicans that are helping. But they’re still uncertain on what will happen in the next days and hours because there are still buildings that are damaged and they are collapsing even though that we are not having any of aftershocks or the quake just passed. But people are afraid because if the buildings are still collapsing today.

HM: Can you describe some of the damage that you yourself have seen?

AZ: Yeah, I saw three buildings that were fully collapsed yesterday. They were very close to my office. As soon as we evacuated our offices, we went to help the area and there were three buildings that collapsed. And also as we were helping the three buildings, there was another building that had very hard damage, and we were very afraid of this building because it looked like it was going to collapse as we were helping those three buildings. Lots of people helping, lots of people crying in the streets, lots of people with crisis and lots of people asking for their family or friends that were trapped in the buildings or that they cannot locate them because we lost communications after the first moment.

HM: Were you aware whether there were people in those buildings, could you hear anyone?

AZ: No, I couldn't hear any one. I wasn't at the top of the buildings. I was moving the rubble with some other friends in buckets and making lines and trying with many other tools to remove the rubble.

HM: Did you know if there were people inside?

AZ: Yeah, there were people inside. For me it was very sad because later I noticed that one of the buildings there was a cousin with her husband and she died.

HM: That's difficult for you to have seen as well.

AZ: Yeah. When I was there, we saw when they were removing the rescue people or victims because we didn't know if they were victims or rescue people or if they were safe enough because they were covered with sheets.

HM: You mean sheets.

AZ: I think I was there about five to six hours and I saw five bodies, not the bodies entire because it was covered with sheets, but I saw so that they rescued five people.

HM: I understand that many people just showed up to help with these rescues. You mentioned that you were removing some of these rocks and debris by hand. How many people were involved in helping?

AZ: I think in that in that three buildings it was almost 200 to 300 people.

HM: I understand that the people who were working on the rescue were struggling sometimes to hear whether there were people trapped inside that were trying to communicate. Can you tell us what that was like?

AZ: Yes. Well, since there was a lot of people trying to help and shouting like come on move, let us pass and we need some other tools and we need the medical supplies and we needed water. So everyone was shouting near the buildings helping. But there were some moments in which we need some silence in order to know if there were people trapped. And the sign was like getting their arms up in order to make the people be quiet so they can hear.

HM: What were those quiet moments like while you were straining to hear?

AZ: They were like uncertainty for everyone because even though everyone was quiet, it was like come on, please let us hear something. And it was like we want to know that there is someone that we can rescue. But it was also a deep breath because as soon as we finished like the quiet moments it was like No, we couldn't hear anything. Let's keep working. So it was depressing moments for everyone that was helping and that they couldn't hear anything.

HM: We know, of course, that other buildings collapsed and a lot of people are particularly concerned about the school. Have you heard anything from there today?

AZ: Yes. Actually I wanted to go there, but it wasn't close enough to my office. And we know that there are like about 26 victims right now. The main issue is that they were children and it was children trapped for about 16 to 20 hours. I think they were about eight to ten children that were pulled out. But we also know about 26 that they weren’t.

HM: Is there anything more that you feel you can do?

AZ: Right now, we are making like small bags with supplies of water to send them to the people that are being rescued. Right now they are homeless, so yes I think we can do more. People are asking for blood because some of the people that has been rescued will need blood. So I think we are going to donate some blood.

HM: I really appreciate you speaking with us Mr. Zurita, and I wish you all the best.

AZ: Thanks.

HM: Bye Bye.

ZA: Bye.

JD: We reached Andreas Zurita in Mexico City. For the latest on the aftermath of the earthquake in Mexico, go to www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Sombre]

Jake LaMotta obit

Guest: Don Chargin

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT DE NIRO: I never went down, Ray. You never got me down, Ray.

JD: Famous line was delivered by Robert De Niro — playing boxing champion Jake LaMotta in the 1980 film “Raging Bull”. Moments earlier in the picture, he had been defeated — but not put on the mat as he said there — by Sugar Ray Robinson. Jake LaMotta — a one-time world middleweight champion, and one of the toughest men in professional boxing — died yesterday. He was 95-years-old. The Hall of Famer was famous for being able to take a beating, only being knocked down once at the end of his career in 1952. Outside the ring, his life was filled with violence and crime. In his biography, Mr. LaMotta admitted to beating his wives, to rape, among other crimes. Don Chargin is a Hall of Fame matchmaker, and a friend of Mr. LaMotta. We reached him at his home in Cambria, California.

HM: Mr. Chargin, first of all, I'm very sorry about the loss of your friend.

DON CHARGIN: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

HM: When did you first meet Jake LaMotta?

DG: I was a matchmaker at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles, and when they made the movie De Niro played Jake…

HM: “Raging Bull”?

DG: The “Raging Bull”, they shot most of it at the Olympic Auditorium — all the boxing scenes and that. And Jake was somewhat of a… I think he was a technical adviser on the film, so he used to visit with me in my office because we had weekly fights, so that was right down Jake's alley. So he would come up and discuss the fights. And that's how we started a friendship. But he used to attend almost every year the International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastoa, New York.

HM: Mm hmm. He admitted he had been a pretty rough character; certainly the portrayal in the movie would sort of reinforce that. How did you find him as a person?

DG: Well, he was very gruff and until you got to know him, you got the feeling that he really didn't care for you that much. But when you talk to him, especially when you would when you would talk boxing, then he would really get mellow and you know I would talk about some of his best fights and that I had seen on film and we got along good. But you know in later years, I’ll tell you, it was just so amazing because he was a throwback fighter. I mean he was in there and it was blood and guts. I mean every fight was a war with him. He was just a very, very tough, tough individual and it is just amazing that he could live so long because he really, really had… besides the boxing, it was a rough life.

HM: Well, as a matter of fact, I mean when you hear about him as a fighter, people keep pointing out that you know he just he would take it. He took the hits over and over. What was it about that that made him so effective?

DG: He had what we call in boxing a great chin, you really couldn't hurt him. I mean the greatest fighter pound-per-pound that I think in the history of boxing was Sugar Ray Robinson, and they fought six times and Ray won five of them. But just to be able to fight Robinson that many times and while he lost them, they were all good, good fights. But he was just something.

HM: Yeah, at one point, he actually knocked Sugar Ray out of the ring, right?

DG: Yes, sort of a knock push. But he gave Sugar Ray his first loss in their fifth fight. And then the sixth fight was a famous fight were Ray stop him in the 13th around a 15 rounder and a thing came out to that film at the microphone and camera picked it up. I still have the picture on my wall at home. Its Jake slumped against the ropes, he’s cut over and below both eyes and swollen, but he managed as he was standing there and the referee stopped the fight. He looked at Robinson and said, “You couldn't put me down, Ray.” And that got to be a famous thing. When Jake sometimes when they be talking — just kidding — he would say, “You couldn't put me down, Ray.”

HM: We mentioned Mr. LaMotta had a rough life, that’s just barely scratching the surface. This is someone he admitted to some terrible things raping a woman, beating not just one wife, but perhaps a number of several women who was married to, he spent time in jail for abetting prostitution. Did he ever talk to you about those things?

DG: No, not about that. But he's always talked about his wife, Vicki. You know that was ended up in that I don't know, but that was true love. That was the only thing where he really got into his personal life was he told me that was the love of his life.

HM: That's the relationship we saw in the movie “Raging Bull”, his second wife.

DG: Right, and she was a beautiful girl, Vicki — just gorgeous.

HM: His childhood was especially rough. He was forced into violence as a kid by his own father. Do you think that shaped him?

DG: He told me this story when he was like 11-12 years old, his dad would take him around the neighborhood in the Bronx and have him fight 15 and 16 year old kids. And he says he beat them all.

HM: And his father counted on them to get money for those fights?

DG: Right.

HM: Maybe go back to the film “Raging Bull” for us. I mean it's a seminal film, people really value that as one of the finer American movies.

DG: It was terrific. De Niro did a great job.

HM: Yeah, and Mr. LaMotta actually personally trained Robert De Niro for the part. What did he think of that — of doing that job?

DG: He would stop filming if he thought something was wrong. I mean with the crew that he got to be a little bit of a pain, but that was Jake. He'd come into my office and he'd say I'm going to see, I'm going to make him change it, they're not doing this right, or they're not doing that right. But it really worked out. He was proud of it later on he used to tell me.

HM: You know we look back at him — this legend of boxing — and then those terrible things in his life that he did as well. But what do you think we should think of when we think of Jack LaMotta? How do you want him remembered?

DG: I want to remember him as being a great fighter that always gave his best.

HM: Mr. Chargin, thank you for talking to us. I appreciate it.

DG: You bet. Thank you.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

DG: Bye Bye

JD: Don Chargin is a Hall of Fame boxing matchmaker and was a friend of boxing champion Jake LaMotta. Jake LaMotta died yesterday. He was 95-years-old.

[Music: Sombre]

1976 Tony Gabriel catch

Guest: Tony Gabriel

JD: If you were kicking around Ottawa back in the 1970s, chances are you remember Tony Gabriel. Number 77 with the Ottawa Roughriders, he won his team the Grey Cup in 1976. His winning touchdown catch went down in Canadian Football League history. And here's what that play sounded like. More than 40 years ago.

SOUNDCLIP

ANOUNCER: Gabriel is open in the end zone. Touchdown!!! And the Ottawa fans and players are going crazy.

JD: That's it and that cadged made Tony Gabriel kind of famous. And just this month, in fact, Mr. Gabriel was asked to reenact it for a commercial filmed in Ottawa. This time, however, he did not find glory in the end zone. The failed catch landed him in a cast… and on crutches. We reached Tony Gabriel in Burlington, Ontario.

HM: Tony Gabriel, were you hoping to recreate that moment of glory?

TONY GABRIEL: Trying to bring back a little of the excitement to the Eastern Rough Riders.

HM: Yeah, so for people listening who either aren't huge CFL fans or maybe you just weren't around at the time, can you tell us what made that particular catch of yours in 1976 so legendary?

TG: Well, it was in the waning seconds, we were behind 20 to 16 against a great Saskatchewan Roughrider team. And Tommy Clements called the particular play — a rabbi fake 34 tight end flag — and I was the tight end. So I was to leave from the line of scrimmage to try to fake the secondary into the middle towards the post area and then back out to the corner. And Tommy found me wide open in the end zone and we won the game 23 to 20. And that allowed us as winners to take home double what the losers took.

HM: Well that's pretty good. : It was so memorable, in fact, for Ottawa in particular, you got called there to shoot a promotional video that alluded to it. They wanted you to reenact the catch, right? What exactly did they tell you to do?

TG: Well it was in the ByWard Market, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

HM: I am, sure.

TG: So the idea in and amongst of all people going by in cars and trucks and whatever was I bumped into someone who recognized me, I’d signed an autograph for him when he was a young boy and he wanted to reenact the catch. I said Heck, I'm ready to do you know ready to do it — the rabbi fake 34 tight end flag — and then he says all we need is a football and somehow football comes into the screen and then we're off to reenact the catch. So we were doing a number of takes of me catching the pass and everything was OK for the fourth or fifth take. And I caught most of them by the way…

HM: I would hope so. You haven’t lost it.

TG: And spiked the ball behind my head — just as I did at the 76 cup — and then I came back and they asked me the actor that I was working with has missed his mark to end up in front of the camera. The said Mr. Gabriel, could you do it one more time?

HM: That sounds like a problem.

TG: The sixth time was one time too much and it took me.

HM: What happened?

TG: Well, it was quite pronounced and very quickly when I tried to push from the pretend line of scrimmage, I went down in a heap. I couldn't put any weight on my right leg. I felt very scared because I couldn’t feel my toes even. But they put ice on it right away, whisked me in a limo to the Ottawa General Hospital, where the doctor diagnosed me with a partially torn right Achilles. I have to be in a cast now for three months.

HM: That's a considerable amount of time and not exactly which is signed up for I guess when you went to do the ad.

TG: You couldn't have prepared for this and no one could see it coming. My dear wife is spoiling me now with having to prepare meals and do the dishes.

HM: She's going to be really glad when you're out of that cast.

TG; I think it's going to be a real pleasure looking back at it one day and laughing at my success or lack of it in trying to duplicate the catch. We're calling this “The Catch 2.0”, and there isn't going to be another one past that.

HM: When you were sitting there on the ground after you collapsed, you were trying to recreate this great moment, were you embarrassed?

TG: You know, quite frankly, I was somewhat embarrassed because people were all you know walking by stopping and someone had noticed me and recognized me and you know hey way to go, Tony. Welcome back to Ottawa. It has been 41 years, but then to have that happen after 11 years of professional football I've been saying, this has done me in. Trying to do this promotional video and I was tickled to be asked you know and be sort of part of this folklore for great Ottawa fans.

HM: How do you think those fans recognized you without your famous mustache? Because I heard you shaved it off?

TG: And we’re talking about when I used to have hair.

HM: Oh, a lot has changed. Now what about the promotional video, will they be able to salvage it?

TG: From what I've been told so far, because we did sort of parts one and two where we you know get together to contemplate the play and then reenact it they got all that. So I'm hoping that somehow they'll be able to incorporate that into their thinking.

HM: Well listen, I'm sorry to hear football days are over. But we really appreciate you telling us what happened and I wish you a really good recovery.

TG: Thanks Helen, hope to be able to get back on both legs in a couple of months.

HM: All right, all the best.

TG: Thanks Helen.

HM: Bye bye.

TG: Bye.

JD: Tony Gabriel played tight end for the Ottawa Rough Riders in the 1970s, he led that team to a Grey Cup victory in 1976 with his famous end zone catch. He attempted to recreate that catch recently — which landed him in a cast and crutches. For more on the story, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Hunger strike MP

JD: Yesterday, Romanian MP Florin Roman ended his hunger strike — having bravely put his life on the line to fight for what he believed in. Next year will be the 100th anniversary of the Great Union — when Transylvania, Bessarabia, Banat and Bucovina officially joined Romania. The official proclamation was signed on December 1^st, 1918, in the city of Alba Lulia. Among the many celebratory elements planned for 2018 is the construction of a Union Monument. The problem was the government was dragging its feet on dedicating the required money for the project. And so — sensing time was of the essence — Mr Roman began a hunger strike, announcing that he would not eat until the government promised to fund the monument. And his gambit worked: shamed by his dedication and his self-sacrifice, the Romanian government caved. It told Mr. Roman It would allocate the necessary funds to the construction of that monument immediately if he would please, please agree to begin eating again. So Florin Roman had succeeded. And thus, his courageous hunger strike, which had begun on September 19th ended triumphantly on September 19th. Now attentive listeners will notice that those dates are the same and you are correct, Mr. Roman's hunger strike began and ended on the same day. As the Website Romanian Insider points out, quote. “The hunger strike started at 3pm p.m. yesterday and ended three hours later. In other words, the MP didn't eat anything between lunch and dinner.” Unquote. So Florin Roman got what he wanted and he didn't even have to skip a meal. It goes to show you can have your cake and eat it too… you just have to wait three hours.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Hurricane Maria: Puerto Rico, Porpoise grave

Hurricane Maria: Puerto Rico

Guest: Juan Carlos Rodriguez

JD: Puerto Rico has been left battered and bruised, but people on the island are hanging on. Hurricane Maria is the strongest hurricane to hit the island in 80 years. It destroyed hundreds of homes, it knocked out power and it left some areas flooded. And so far, across the Caribbean, Maria has killed at least nine people. Juan Carlos Rodriguez is a military veteran who rode out the storm in San Juan and that is where we reached him.

HM: Mr. Rodriguez, How badly has Puerto Rico been hit by Maria at this point?

JUAN CARLOS RODRGUEZ: I would say catastrophic, to be honest. There has been a lot of the power lines have been knocked down. A lot of damage from property that have been knocked down — a lot of the concrete walls. Cars have been moved from five to six feet because of the wind. It is a bunch of numerous things that has been going on. I've never seen such a magnitude of a hurricane.

HM: Are you seeing that damage yourself when you look outside your window?

JCR: Yes, I mean this is a huge, huge amount of damage. Like 90 per cent of everywhere where you can look at — every house.

HM: What is the situation right now with regards to the weather?

JCR: Right now, looking outside, the winds have slowed down a little bit. As far as we're tracking, the eye has passed through San Juan already and it's moving toward the North West. There's a lot of water running around.

HM: Are you seeing some of that flooding? Because we're hearing there's also worries about flash floods?

JCR: At the street where I’m staying at, there hasn't been a lot. But if I go outside and look maybe like 300 meters to the right, I'll be able to see or see where it looks like a lake. It looks like a river just passing through.

HM: Can you take me back to the worst of it? Where you were and what you heard and felt?

JCR: Yes. So we basically we stayed around the living area of the house. We thought that was probably the best safe spot for us to be actually there. And we basically tried to make room for everybody who was staying in the house to be able to accommodate themselves. And like about 11 o'clock the winds started picking up. It wasn't really too much. The electricity went out right away and then maybe about 12:00 to 1:00 o'clock in the morning that's when the winds picked up very greater speed and there was a lot of the debris from like steel pieces they put on the windows that had flown off, slamming against the house and cars. There has been like cracking from windows from the outside. It's kind of like very unsafe for us to actually even go inside to try to see what is going on. There’s just been a lot of slamming or just debris everywhere.

HM: When that was slamming around and you could hear that. How frightening was that?

JCR: I was very concerned, especially because my friends they've been saying over here. They have their daughters and their sons over here too. So it’s kind of like we have to try to stay calm as best as possible to not act chaotic because kids. But it has been pretty scary.

HM: You mentioned having children hunkering down there with you. What did you folks say to them to keep them calm?

JCR: We have a electric generator. A lot of the population in Puerto Rico they are trying to buy an electric generator to power some of their appliances in their house. And we actually had the TV going on until maybe you know a couple hours until the fell asleep. So we can actually have them you know focus on something else instead of what's going on outside. So we'll keep the conversations with them. You know they're actually doing some homework right now because we don't even know like how long the schools are going to be closed. So they're trying to do as much homework as and can from you know you know from what they've been given by the schools in order to actually be able to stay up with their progress in the school.

HM: What else are you hearing about the situation in the rest of the city?

JCR: I don't know too much, but I know it's going to be really hard for us to actually pick up again. And I think we have taken a huge amount of damage to property. I don't know how the gasoline is going to work out here. People will need to go back to work eventually to be able to feed their families and stuff that. We just got to take it one day at a time I guess. I don’t have too much information on what's going on with a lot of people because a lot of the telephone lines have been down. I haven’t been able to actually contact some of my family members.

HM: I just have to ask about the kind of gut feeling you have when you see this kind of damage to your home and what effect it has on you?

JCR: That’s kind of a really sensitive subject, but it kind of hits you real hard because you’re not expecting to be at the point we are in right now. So it's something that we just have to embrace and be able to actually continue.

HM: Are you worried about the recovery? We know Puerto Rico's had some economic issues in recent times. Does that does that concern you as well?

JCR: That concerns me the most, yes. That's why I'm saying it's a very sensitive subject, you know? But we’ve been in worse situations before and we’ve always been able to actually look to the bright side to be able to you know come together as an island a be able to push forward with what we have. Because the best you could do is just give and help each other out.

HM: Well, Mr. Rodriguez, thank you for taking time to talk with us. I wish you and your family and friends very best as you get through all of this.

JCR: All right. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

HM: All right. Goodbye.

JCR: Bye bye.

JD: We reached Juan Carlos Rodriguez in San Juan. And there is more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Industrial]

Climate Barbie

JD: Yesterday, Conservative MP Gerry Ritz thought he'd take a run at cracking a joke on Twitter. And to that end, he compared Canada's Environment Minister to a plastic doll. No one really found it funny. In response to an article predicting that many countries would be unable to meet their Paris Climate accord commitments, Mr Ritz tweeted, quote, “Has anyone told our climate Barbie?” What followed was, of course, a backlash, including from members of his own party. And about nine hours later, Mr. Ritz took down the tweet and apologized, quote, “I apologize for the use of Barbie. It is not reflective of the role the Minister plays.” Outside the House of Commons today, two responses: first, from Canadian Heritage Minister Melanie Joly, and then from Conservative MP Michelle Rempel.

SOUNDCLIP

MELANIE JOLY: That's completely unacceptable. And I really want to say to Gerry and I'll go and say to him that I really hope that a man of his honour is able to understand the impact he has when he says these comments. Sexism is unacceptable. You know we can have different opinions. And this is all about what's happening in the House and what it is about when we talk about democracy, but ultimately, we need to show respect one another. And that was clearly a lack of respect.

MICHELLE REMPEL: Look, I've been the subject of Barbie speculation myself in the past. I've ignored it, maybe I should have, actually I’ve had somebody who is I guess on staff at the Manitoba Arts Council did a full video about me being a Barbie once. You know what? I'm really glad that Gerry apologized and deleted that tweet; I think that's what he should have done. He's been a friend, he’s always supported me, but like I mean let's stop calling people Barbies and get on with work.

JD: Speaking outside the House of Commons today, that was first, Canadian Heritage Minister Melanie Joly, and Conservative MP Michelle Rempel after her.

[Music: Jazz]

Porpoise grave

Guest: Philip de Jersey

“What is the purpose of a buried porpoise?” That is the question on Philip de Jersey's mind. Late last week, he was among a group of archaeologists on an island in the English Channel, when they found a perfectly buried porpoise. It is believed the marine mammal remains date back to the 14th century. We reached Philip de Jersey at his home in Guernsey.

HM: Philip de Jersey, what were you doing when you stumbled across this burial site?

PHILIP DE JERSEY: Well, we're excavating a tiny little island off the west coast of Guernsey in the Channel Islands. This little island is only about 15 meters by 15 meters and it's called Chapel Domway, which is sort of literally the Chapel of Domway, which is the name of a monk. It's particularly supposed to have been a sort of hermit cell — a retreat — for Benedictine monks to go to. And there was a tiny little bit of wall and a bit of structure visible on the surface of the island and we've been sort of monitoring it for quite a few years now. And it was just a good opportunity earlier this months to actually do some proper archaeological excavation there. So essentially we were looking for more remains of space the structure — this building — which indeed we found. And we also sort of continued to trench through the center of this little island, partly because we knew there was pre-start aspect to it — a much earlier aspect to it from about 5000 years ago. We got Flint that had been knocked on the island from them and then we came across what to all intents and purposes looks like a grave. When we got down to it got down to the top of this feature, I remember looking at it and thinking well, I wouldn't be that surprised if there was a body in there, but my human body, not an animal. It's not quite east west as most Christian graves are, but it's not far off. It's within the sort of the normal range for Christian burials and what was the association of the island the name of the island with this monk and so on. I really did think well, maybe there's actually a human burial.

HM: That's what you were anticipating. And then that's not what you found. How soon did you realise what you were actually looking at?

PDJ: Very often when you dig burials as we do from time to time, the at the top of the skull is what you get to first because if a body is lying in a grave it tends to be the sort of highest point that survives. And I got to what I thought might be this, but it clearly sort of became a very strange shape and clearly was not a human skull — something much bigger than that. And as we gradually took out the fill of this feature — took out the contents of it — we revealed the whole of the skull and then various other bones as well. By which point it was clearly not human. But we were still pretty puzzled as to what it was. So did some sort of quick research and phoning around specialists and so on. And it's what we call a harbour or a common porpoise.

HM: What went through your mind in that moment?

PDJ: All sorts of things. Basically puzzlement really, and sort of a sense of disbelief because the I guess the really odd thing is you can think of reasons why someone might have buried a porpoise. They did used to eat them in the medieval period. They were actually quite a delicacy. So once you'd sort of butchered it and got as much meat and blubber off it as you could you could use you might bury it, but you wouldn't normally… I wouldn't have thought go to the trouble of digging such a neat grave, what looks to all intents and purposes like a grave. And is actually cut down into the granite, so they've gone to considerable efforts to excavate this feature and they've given a nice flat base. They've chipped away at the granite, so it's nice and flat. And then put this animal in it. And I would have thought, especially as you're only a few metres from the sea, surely the sensible thing if you want to get rid of the remains would just be to go and sort of drag it down onto the beach and let the seagulls and they have marine creatures and the high tides just take it away.

HM: Sure, that makes a lot of sense. So given that and the care — the obvious care — that was taken in preparing this grave site, what are your theories?

PDJ: One possibility is porpoise may have been one of those animals that you weren't really supposed to have or to eat, unless you sort of pretty special person. And in this case, if some monk got hold of it, he probably ought to have declared it to his Abbot so the higher ranking clergy or whatever who were present around the island or nearby could have it. So you know that's one possibility you could argue that he was hiding the evidence…

HM: But again, it's hardly stashing it quickly to prepare a nice grave.

PDJ: No, the trouble as I said that they went to dig the grave. I mean there are other options. I can't really believe that this was a grave that had been prepared for a person that they then put an animal in because that doesn't, as far as I know, accord with any sort of medieval beliefs or anything. It would be disrespectful to the sort of prospective human occupant. So I am really pretty much at a loss to come up with a good explanation.

HM: Where are the porpoise remains now?

PDJ: The porpoise remains are in my office now awaiting specialist attention. The bone — what's left of the bone — actually dries out and hardens up. It's very difficult to work with until it's hardened up somewhat because at the moment, it's quite soft and pliable. But it will harden up and then we can clean it properly and get someone to have a closer look at it.

HM: And once that research is done will you be returning the poor office to its final resting place?

PDJ: It's quite a nice idea actually because there used to be a very bad archaeological tradition of chucking everything like this in cardboard boxes for sort of future research and I can see an argument for that, but the sort of the sort of sentimental side of me would quite like to put it back in its last resting place and then someone else can dig it out and be puzzled by a few more hundred years.

HM: It really sounds like quite the mystery. Thank you for sharing it with us.

PDJ: You're welcome.

HM: Bye bye.

PDJ: Bye.

JD: Philip de Jersey is an archaeologist. We reached him at home in Guernsey. And we have posted a photograph of that porpoise grave on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Showtune]

Wiarton Willie obit

JD: His predictions were not always reliable. His services were required just one day a year. And yet, the death of Wiarton Willie has cast a shadow over the town. Wiarton Willie — the celebrity groundhog — has died. He was just 13-years-old. Mr. Willy drew huge crowds for his weather prognostication skills. He was also the second albino groundhog to hold the covenant position. And if he hadn't caught the eye of Samantha Jennen in Markdale, Ontario, he may never have gotten the gig at all. Here is Ms. Jennen describing how she discovered the groundhog to CBC's “Ottawa Morning”, back in 2006.

SOUNDCLIP

SAMANTHA JENNEN: On Canada Day — July the first — three of us saw a white ground hog — an albino groundhog — in our backyard. And the next day he came to the door, he came right up to the door and looked in the window. And he did this a couple times and he just seemed very friendly and easy going and just outside of our garden, under our maple tree, we saw that that's where his whole was. And periodically, he'd come up and come right into the garden and eat the grass. And then Willie died a few days later. And so I went to his memorial a week later and then I started to get phone calls from various people from Wiarton area to ask me if it possible we could trap him and so they organized that we get a proper trap and my house and set up two of them and we got him within three days. And we ended up putting him from the trap into a cage and we kept him in a small barn and we fed him lettuce and cabbage and clover. It was really terrific to watch him eat. He with his hands and they're so clean. And it was hard for him because they usually have three or four rooms in their den and they have the toilet area separate from say the living room in the nursery. And so he you could see that he was very clean. It’s not easy finding an albino groundhog, let alone catching him. But it was amazing it was like it was meant to be! It was Canada Day, he came to the door twice, he’d sit on the lawn — we were sitting around our little fire pit in the back — and there he was just sitting on the woodpile. We've been here 29 years and never have seen them close to the house like that. So sort of like he was saying you know, here I am.

JD: From 2006, That was Samantha Jennen from Markdale, Ontario, telling CBC's “Ottawa Morning” how she discovered an albino groundhog on her family farm. That groundhog became Wiarton Willie. And Wiarton Willie died today. He was 13-years-old.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Dateline: Fatberg energy

JD: Dateline: White Chapel Road, London, England.

[Music: The Dateline theme]

JD: In a sewer beneath the surface of London's White Chapel Road, there lurks a very large, very smelly monster. Not the Loch Ness monster… that’s Scotland not England, and it reportedly smells faintly of lavender. This is the Fatburg — a 130-ton glob of fat, oil, diapers and baby wipes that has solidified into a 230-metre long blockage in the city's Victorian-era sewer. Yummy. Last week on our program, we spoke with one of the people whose job it is to remove said Fatburg. Alex Saunders, the waste network's manager for Thames Water. He described the smell as, quote, “Rotten eggs combined with a nasty smelling public toilet.” Unquote. At that time, Mr. Saunders said that as workers chipped away at the Fatburg, tanker trucks would take it away. But where would they take it? Well, the Museum of London has asked for a piece to put on display, but what about the rest of it? Well today we have the answer: a Scottish energy company called Argent Energy will transform the foul smelling fat into biodiesel. According to Thames Water, the Fatburg will be able to generate 10,000 liters of fuel. That is enough to power 350 of London's red double decker buses for a full day. But it will still be a while until that happens. The work to remove the Fatburg is expected to stretch into October. After that, things will be returned to their natural odour.

3

Part 3: Former Myanmar army general: Rohingya, Bieber painting

Ensaf Haidar

JD: Raif Badawi wanted to live in a country that valued free speech and human rights. For that, he was thrown in jail. In 2013, the Saudi blogger was sentenced to 1000 lashes and 10 years in prison. His crime was criticizing Saudi clerics online. He received only 50 of those lashes — all in one public session — before doctors said he would die if he received the rest. He has been in prison ever since. After his imprisonment, Mr. Badawi's wife, Ensaf Haidar, fled to Canada with their children. She now lives in Montreal. And yesterday, she went to New York to speak to the U.N. Human Rights Council. Speaking directly to the Saudi ambassador, she demanded her husband's release.

SOUNDCLIP

ENSAF HAIDAR: [Speaking: Arabic]

TRANSLATOR: I am honored to speak on behalf of U.N. Watch. My name is Ensaf Haidar, I am the wife of jailed Saudi blogger Raif Badawi. I wish to address my words to Saudi Arabia, which is sitting here as a member of this council. Mr. Ambassador Abdul Aziz Al Wasil, I am here to speak to you as a wife and a mother fighting for the freedom of her husband. I did not choose this road. It was imposed on me when my world was shattered in 2012, after you arrested my husband. My husband did not commit any crime, he simply aspired for a better future for his country. As you know, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a thousand lashes for criticizing the excess of the religious establishment in the Saudi kingdom. He created this Free Saudi Liberal Forum website, wrote a web blog and wrote in well-known Saudi newspapers. For that he was imprisoned. Mr. Ambassador, Raif was expressing an opinion, exercising individual human rights. Ironically, some of what he was demanding are already being implemented in Saudi Arabia. Indeed, Saudi Arabia itself spoke of these reforms when it was elected as a member of the Council. And yet, Raif is still in prison. Five years in prison for expressing an opinion? How just is that? Will his majesty King Salman grant pardon to my husband? Mr. Ambassador, when will our three little children get to see their father again? Mr. Ambassador, I am asking you as a wife and a mother who did not choose this role. This role was imposed on me. All I am doing is fighting for the release of my husband. Thank you.

JD: That was Ensaf Haidar speaking in translation before the UN Human Rights Council yesterday. Ms hiders husband, Raif Badawi, has been imprisoned in Saudi Arabia since 2013.

[Music: Ambient]

Former Myanmar army general: Rohingya

Guest: Ye Htut

JD: Yesterday, Aung San Suu Kyi acknowledged that the world's attention is fixed on Myanmar, and on claims of “ethnic cleansing” in Rakhine state. On that subject, however, the country's de facto leader was defiant, quote, “Myanmar does not fear international scrutiny.” In that speech, the Nobel Laureate did not blame her country's army. She said there were, quote, “allegations and counter-allegations.” But unlike Aung San Suu Kyi, international observers and Rohingya Muslims are not equivocating. They tell stories of villages burned to the ground by Myanmar's security forces. Of refugees shot and killed as they try to flee. And of the mass exodus of more than 400,000 Rohingya people crossing into Bangladesh. Ye Htut is the former Minister of Information for the Myanmar government. He oversaw the transition to Aung San Suu Kyi’s de facto leadership. We reached him in Singapore.

HM: Mr. Htut, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees has called the situation in Rakhine state a textbook example of “ethnic cleansing”. How do you respond to that?

YE HTUT: I reject that remark. And also, I would like to know that if we are using this kind of ethnic cleansing you need strong legal evidence to use this term. Without this kind of precaution, you give a group like ISIS a good propaganda platform.

HM: So how do you define what is happening in Rakhine?

YH: There is a conflict between the terrorist group and the security forces. Second, that creates a lot of humanitarian crisis on the both side of the border.

HM: There is fire detection data. There's satellite imagery, photographs, videos, they show entire Rohingya villages being burned down by vigilante Buddhist mobs and also by Myanmar security forces. Given all that evidence how can you deny what's happening?

YH: What those photos is likely to show is the villages are burning. And also, I would like to point out, there is no proof the villages are burring. I admit it this is not a good theme for our country.

HM: Who are you suggesting is burning down these villages, if not the military and vigilantes who support them?

YH: There are three possibilities: the one is you know most of the fighting are close fighting in the villages and using the grenade and IEDs. And also most of the houses are bamboo houses, so cthe flames caught during the fighting. Second, the terrorist or some of the security force may be responsible for that issue. Third, when most of the villagers let the villages, looters come in, take property and they started the fire. So there is three possibilities of this situation.

HM: Human Rights Watch has satellite analysis that says 210 villages have been burned to the ground. It seems outrageous to suggest that could be the result of you know accidental fires caused by IEDs or by looters, no?

YH: that's why I said there's three possibilities. We have to understand what the terrorists’ main objective is not to control that area. What they want is to create a humanitarian crisis and make that area the lawlessness and chaos. So that is one possibility.

HM: You are suggesting that Rohingya guerrillas are burning down their residences, pushing out their own people, which again seems absolutely outrageous. What evidence do you have that they could do that or would do that?

YH: When you talk about the security forces burning these villages what is the reason behind this? Because everybody know we have to refuges. And then burning their home is bad images for the government. So this is the allegation and counter-allegation is useless. So my suggestion is allow the media access to that area.

HM: Your government has been saying that. At the same time, observers and journalists have been denied entry to the areas most affected.

YH: So there's one thing I regret about this kind of decision because our experience in the 2012 and 2013 violence, we allow the free media access. And we find out the best thing to counter the rumour and the false information. I think the government have to reconsider their position on this issue.

HM: So you have 400,000 Rohingya Muslims now living in squalor in flooded refugee camps in Bangladesh. Should they want to come back to the country — should they feel safe enough to come back to the country — are you going to give them access? Or do they have to offer proof?

YH: Up until now, these people in the other side of the border are prevented from coming back because they didn't have trust on the government and the security force. This isn't one of the obstacles we have to overcome to ensure their security for their return. And then after that, we have to make the proper verification process for the citizenship.

HM: Many of these people will have lost any verification that they have when their villages were burned down. How are they supposed to prove that they are people who've lived in Myanmar for decades or longer?

YH: If they want to come back to Myanmar, they only need to name their village and they have to name the name of their neighbors. And also, they can described is their house located or something like that. It is a very simple one.

HM: What do you think when you see the faces of those children, those elderly people, those women, some of them living in waist-deep water in these refugee camps in Bangladesh.

YH: I saw not only the images of the Rohingya of Bengali, but also the suffering of the Rakhine and Hindus and other minorities. I feel very sorry for them. My feeling is we have to do our utmost to avoid this kind of human tragedy.

HM: In the lead up to this crisis would you agree that the military and the government in which you served had been responsible for many years of discrimination and oppression against the Rohingya people?

YH: I do accept that. But I have to acknowledge that the government had for some time been using the strong measures to control the illegal immigration and the Muslim Separatist Movement. But I think whenever there is an armed conflict every government has to use some strong message for the security reason.

HM: But these are people who have been denied citizenship, they've had their movement restricted, they are barred from getting a state education and they can't work in civil service jobs. How is that not oppression and isolation?

YH: There's also one many Bengali people have citizenship in that area.

HM: Why do you not use the term Rohingya?

YH: because I preferred to use the government officially recognized name. No dissemination against their useless name. I understand they want to create the separated identity from the people from the Bangladesh border.

HM: It seems that your country doesn't want the Rohingya Muslims. Bangladesh doesn't want them either. Where do you think they should go?

YH: No, we never say that we didn't want the Bengali or Rohingya. What we say is we cannot accept that many of the ethnic status of these people.

HM: The language you've been using in this conversation makes very clear that you see the Rohingyas as separate from other citizens of Myanmar. Is that not true?

YH: That is not true! There many people like the Chinese Tamil who are becoming Myanmar citizens. Many Muslims are living across our country peacefully. I would like to mention even my driver was a Muslim, so I did not know hatred or discrimination against the Muslim or the Bengali.

HM: When Aung San Suu Kyi was elected in late 2015, many took it as a sign that your country was turning a corner — that peace was finally coming. And now, she has been criticized as an apologist for this “ethnic cleansing” that is going on in the country. Do you think you've lost an opportunity here to repair your image and to be welcomed into the global community?

YH: I think the intelligence community, especially the western country are not far on the Aung San Suu Kyi. You have to understand she is no longer the activist. Now, she is becoming the politician and the statesman, the leader of your country. She has to consider every aspect of the problem and she have to consider the public opinion in every issue. So you should not blame her not using the language when she was an activist or the opposition leader. It's not fair to her.

HM: The leader of my country and of many other countries is now highly critical of her. Prime Minister Trudeau says he's disappointed in how she has handled the situation. Is that not a fair assessment given the suffering that we're seeing?

YH: Your country doesn't have any conflict. It doesn't have the problem of illegal immigration or refugee problem. You can live in the mostly ideal situation. So you have to step in our shoe before blaming her.

HM: Mr. Htut, I appreciate you taking time to talk to us today.

YH: Yeah, I love to talk with you. Welcome.

HM: Thank you. Bye bye.

YH: Bye bye.

JD: Ye Htut oversaw the transition to Aung San Suu Kyi’s de facto leadership, and formerly acted as Minister of Information for the Myanmar government. We reached Mr. Htut in Singapore.

[Music: Electronica]

Obama

JD: Well, debate is once again heating up over health care in Washington. The Republicans have put forward yet another revised bill in their ongoing attempt to repeal and replace Obamacare. But it appears that so far, Republican leaders are still a few votes short of the number that they need to pass the bill. So perhaps in an effort to influence the upcoming vote, Barack Obama spoke out today against the proposed changes to the Affordable Care Act. Here's some of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

BARACK OBAMA: For the first time more than 90 per cent of Americans know the security of health insurance. Paying more for insurance or being denied insurance because of a pre-existing condition or because you are a woman that's not a thing anymore — we got rid of it. And people are alive today because of it. And that's progress. Now, the legislation that we passed was full of things that still need to be fixed. It wasn't perfect, but it was better. And so when I see people trying to undo that hard won progress for the 50th or 60th time with bills that would raise costs or reduced coverage. Or roll back protections for older Americans or people with pre-existing conditions. The cancer survivor, the expecting mom, or the child with autism, or asthma — for whom coverage once again would be almost unattainable — it is aggravating. And all of this being done without any demonstrable economic or actuarial or plain common-sense rationale it frustrates. And it's certainly frustrating to have to mobilize every couple of months to keep our leaders from inflicting real human suffering on our constituents. But you know typically that's how progress is won and how progress is maintained on every issue. We have to stand up for each other, recognize that progress is never inevitable, that. It often can be fragile. It's in need of constant renewal and. Our individual progress and our collective progress depends on our willingness to roll up our sleeves and work. And not be afraid to work.

JD: Former US President Barack Obama speaking earlier today in New York, at a conference organized by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The last Republican effort overhaul American health care was in July. And at that time, the effort failed by three votes: Republican senators Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski and John McCain all voted no. Thus far, none of them have announced their voting intentions for the revised bill.

[Music: Jazz]

Flash Boys

JD: Michael Lewis has had a lot of success in Hollywood. You may not know his name, but you do probably know the names of his two books that have been made into movies: “Moneyball”, and “The Big Short”. Well another one of Mr. Lewis’s best-selling nonfiction books is called “Flash Boys”. It came on 2014. It's about high-frequency trading on Wall Street, but that is not really important for what you're about to hear. The point of this story is that one of the book's main characters, Bradley Katsuyama, is Asian-Canadian. And at an on stage Q and A earlier this month, Mr. Lewis was asked about “Flash Boys” and why it hasn't been made into a Hollywood movie yet? Here is what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Talk about “Flash Boys” a little bit. Is there a movie of that coming out?

MICHAEL LEWIS: I don't know. They never die, but right now it's close to dead. The problem was revealed in the Sony hack. Remember the hack of the Sony? There were e-mails back and forth about how impossible it was to make a movie with an Asian lead — that the problem was Brad Katsuyama. They've gotten to the point where they are nervous about making an Asian guy a white guy. A decade ago they weren't. they would have just done that. But they don't have I think there's a well enough known Asian male actor, which I think is crazy. It's crazy because the whole point is he's an unknown in real life. So he could echo it in the movie. You could create a person. But the “Flash Boys” story to me is still very, very, very much alive and relevant. It is not sorted out. There is a war going on at the heart of Wall Street and it isn’t going to be properly regulated. It's not. Are narrow vested interests going a queer regulation in a way that essentially causes taxes to be levied on the rest of us? Right now, they are. These guys are single greatest force shining a light on the whole problem and trying to fix it. And I think he's a Canadian, but he's an American hero.

JD: That author Michael Lewis speaking at the National Book Festival in Washington D.C. earlier this month. And as you heard, Mr. Lewis knows this from leaked e-mails. The “Flash Boys” movie was supposed to have been adopted by Aaron Sorkin. But in a 2014 e-mail to the movie's producer, Mr. Sorkin wrote, quote, “The protagonist is Asian-American American (actually Asian Canadian) and there aren't any Asian movie stars. There's no precedent for stories with high-frequency trading creating a stampede to the box office. Aren't you asking me to spend another year writing a movie you won't make and sign a contract you may or may not honor?” Unquote. Mr. Sorkin sent that e-mail in 2014. And according to Michael Lewis, there are still no plans for a “Flash Boys” movie.

[Music: Ambient]

Bieber painting

Guest: Viktor Mitic

JD: Recently you might have heard about a painting of a certain Canadian pop star that went missing. A painting of a young man who is frequently painted himself as a villain. It is a portrait yes of a young Justin Bieber, riddled with actual bullet holes. And earlier this month, it mysteriously disappeared from a museum, whilst on display at an event for the Toronto International Film Festival — also known as TIFF. Now, that story has gotten even weirder. The artist, Viktor Mitic, says the thief contacted him yesterday. We reached Viktor Mitic earlier today in Toronto.

HM: Mr. Mitic, I don't think it's very common that a thief might confess to a person whom they stole from, particularly if they hadn't yet been caught. What went through your mind when you got this message?

VIKTOR MITIC: Yeah, I was really surprised. Like I saw an email on was yesterday morning. It was a very long very and very well written e-mail of apologies and detailed discussion of the events when the painting was taken out of the building.

HM: What was the tone of the apology part of it?

VM: Well basically, he said he did something because he was there with a bunch of friends for a number of TIFF parties. It was late at night and he had a bit to drink and they were looking at Justin Bieber's portrait over the Campbell house and he was dared to take it.

HM: So it was a dare.

VM: He was a daredevil. Apparently he liked the painting, but they dared him to take it and he did.

HM: When you read that did it make sense to you? Did you have any doubt that you were actually hearing from the thief?

VM: yeah, because there was also two photographs attached to the email and because the letter later on describes that the painting was tagged. He tried to cover up the mistakes and bought some paint and tried to match the background of the painting a bit and made a bigger mess.

HM: OK, so the photographs were actually of the painting?

VM: Of the painting and his attempted repairs.

HM: Tell me about this tag? Just in case people don't know what that is. What are we talking?

VM: It's a slang word. It's a graffiti word. When you tag a building with graffiti on it.

HM: And how much of the painting was tagged?

VM: Well, it wasn't really clear. Like he looks like he painted you know quite a bit of the area surrounding the portrait. There was nothing on the portrait according to the photos. I haven't seen the actual painting yet.

HM: And then you say he attempted to cover it up?

VM: Yeah, to cover it up. Obviously, he’s not professional painter and that's not a good job.

HM: Right. So is it fair to say the person sounded that they felt bad about this?

VM: For sure they did. For sure he sounded terrible. He sounded like he really wanted a way out and for us to go forward on this without the police or anything else. It was kind of too late in the game because the police are already on it. Yes, it's not really up to me. I mean I’m not interested in going to court or anything like that. The person over there said that he would like to make a donation to whatever we decide he needs to donate to, to pay for the restoration of the painting and do whatever was needed to be left off the hook.

HM: So if this all proves to be true, you understand the circumstances of why it was taken. But it's not a small painting, 30 by 40 inches is the description I'm reading.

VM: Yes.

HM: How did they get it out of there — out of the museum?

VM: Tell me about it! Like I don't know. I want to see that. I'd like to like to actually talk to him for a few minutes about how that really happened. He did call me last night and I talked for a few minutes about the whole incident, but I didn't really get into the details of how was this exactly done. He basically said he just took the painting off the wall and walked out the front door, walked to the front gate and was briefly stopped by the security over there where they asked him questions and then let him go.

HM: Did he say what the security asked him?

VM: They asked him if he was supposed to have that? And he said yes and walked off.

HM: And that was it?

VM: That was it.

HM: Wow! What would this Justin Bieber painting be worth commercially.

VM: It was $18,000.

HM: OK. So it's pretty significant.

VM: It's not that much to tell you the truth. Like you'd see it's kind of mid-range right there. But still, it's a nice chunk of money, right?

HM: Now you just said you've spoken with police, and, in fact, I understand you just spoke with them again. What are they saying?

VM: They're going to think of the ways of getting the painting back and they're going to let me know how they're going to approach the whole thing. Is they're going to be you know pursuing this or not. The basically said it's not the coolest thing to do.

HM: Now, you said you I'd like to see it all resolved. Would you like to see charges?

VM: Me, I personally don't want to charge anybody. If he is going to be doing what he said in that email he’s going to be doing then I'm OK with that. But you know it will be kind of cool for people to notice it's not cool to take people's artwork out of public institutions and galleries because it takes so much time to get them in there. There’s so much work involved and it's just not cool.

HM: Now the person offered, as you said, to donate to a charity. Have you've got a charity in mind?

VM: I was talking about Tiff. I'm not sure why you mentioned that, but you know it's probably it's all out in the open.

HM: Right, you haven't decided yet.

VM: I hadn’t thought of it. Maybe like setting up a stolen Justin Bieber portrait fund to help young artists.

HM: You kind of wonder you know the painting now has sort of this notoriety around it now. I wonder if it may have strangely added to its value?

VM: I don't know. You know what? It’s so hard to sell paintings these days. And you know people steal them to? I mean come on! I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it has been damaged the way it has if it will bring the value up or down.

HM: All right. Mr. Mitic, thanks for talking to us.

VM: Hey, thanks very much.

HM: Bye bye.

VM: Bye.

JD: We reached Victor Mitic earlier today in Toronto. And if you'd like to see some photographs of the portrait, visit our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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September 20, 2017 episode transcript

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