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The AIH Transcript for September 12, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is as it happens [Music: Theme]

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: An endurance test in Marathon. After spending years building a small resort in the Florida Keys, Ted Dominick went back today to see what was left of his labour of love in hurricane Irma's wake — and it’s not much.

JD: A stateless statesman, in a state. Despite having had his citizenship revoked, Mikheil Saakashvili has forced his way into Ukraine. And tonight, he'll tell us what he's after, and who's after him.

CO: Wedded blitz. A couple in Alberta spends their honeymoon trying to save a family cottage, before fleeing Waterton Lakes National Park to escape the growing wildfires.

JD: Observations on observation. A Chinese artist brings his debut feature to the Toronto International Film Festival — a fictional film created entirely from surveillance-camera recordings.

CO: Leave of ABBA-sense. It seemed virtually impossible that all four members of a Swedish pop group would ever reunite for a tour again — but, as soon as the holograms are ready, it's a virtual certainty they'll hit the road.

JD: And… they're not just furtive — they're frank-furtive. Charles Pender just wants to focus on getting re-elected as mayor of Corner Brook, Newfoundland — so he wishes vandals would stop sneaking wieners on to his property, and into his signs. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that hopes his courage is mustered — because other things need to be mustarded.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: UK deportation update, Irma Keys, hot dog hijinks mayor

UK deportation update

Guest: Kavel Rafferty

JD: It has been an emotional day for Samim Bigzad. Mr Bigzad, a 22-year-old Afghan asylum seeker, was quietly ordered to be deported by the UK government earlier today. And we told Mr. Bigzad last month on this program — that as when he was first ordered to be deported. He was put on a Turkish Airlines flight, but the pilot of that flight refused to take off, after learning about Mr. Bigzad's case. Well today, he boarded another flight and this time it did take off. He was flown to Istanbul and he was waiting to fly to Kabul. Earlier, here's what his friend and former roommate Kavell Rafferty told us.

KAVEL RAFFERTY: On the flight from London to Istanbul apparently, somebody put their hand over his mouth to stop him from speaking and stop him making a scene and stop getting attention from any other passengers on the flight.

CO: What was he trying to do?

KR: I think he used to do what he did last time, which is tell people that if he goes back to Afghanistan, the Taliban are going to kill him… sorry.

CO: That’s OK. I am sorry to push you on this.

KR: I’m sorry — it's upsetting even to speak out loud.

CO: I completely understand, and just how is he? When you spoke to Samim?

KR: Understandably he’s upset. As far as we know, he’s on the flight Turkish Airlines 706 at 12:30 local time in Turkey to be taken back to Afghanistan.

JD: And that airplane was set to take off. But moments before we went to air, Mr. Bigzad had got some news that changed everything. So we called Kavel Rafferty back to fill us in.

CO: Ms. Rafferty, what is your news about Samim?

KR: Well, We just heard 10 minutes ago that the lawyers — the solicitor — managed to get a court injunction and Samim is to be returned to the UK on the next available flight. So yeah, it’s good news.

CO: That’s the headline, let's fill in some details. What did the lawyer do? How did this come about?

KR: To be honest, I don't know. I've only just had the email just before I’ve been in contact with you. So all I know is that there was an urgent appeal, and the judge said that he had to be returned to the UK so that his case can be heard. That’s all I know I'm afraid, sorry.

CO: OK. I'm reading through all the tea leaves here. Basically, they're saying he has to have his case heard again in the UK? This is not to return until they figure out how they're going to get back on a plane. This is to actually give him another chance…

KR: To give us enough time to put a case together. I think that's the point. So he is being returned so that the solicitor has time to put his case together again and put an appeal together with a fresh claim with new evidence. I don't know why the judge has made this decision, but it's great news for us and it's great news for Samim, who's been through a hell of a lot in his life — but today was particularly an awful day for him.

CO: When we spoke with you earlier, and we're not running and all that interview because now we got this news, but you told us that it was very upsetting that they're actually keeping him from speaking or making sounds on the plane…

KR: I've heard a lot of different stories tonight, and I'm not sure I should speak about them on air until we know what's happening because I actually think security guards didn't behave in a correct manner toward somebody in custody. But I think we have to be careful about what we say.

CO: OK. And so where do you think he is now? Do you know where samiam is?

KR: I think he's still in Istanbul, and I'm assuming he'll get either the last flight tonight or the first flight in the morning. They said the first available flight, so I mean, obviously, I won’t believe it completely until he's actually back in the U.K. and I can speak to him on the phone and know that he's OK. But this is excellent news.

CO: Have you been able to talk to him in Istanbul?

KR: No, not since this afternoon, when we were waiting for him to get on the next flight. So I haven't heard from him personally, no.

CO: When you spoke with him before, what was his worst fear at that point?

KR: To be returned to Afghanistan and to be killed. I don't know how much worse could it get? I don’t think there’s anything worse.

CO: And I know we spoke with you earlier about this, but just for our listeners, what is the threat that he would face if he was returned to Afghanistan?

KR: Well, Samim worked for construction companies in Afghanistan, who are American and British construction companies — so the Taliban are anti-anybody who works for those companies. And he's been threatened with beheading and death threats.

CO: So he is going to… and they rejected his claim because, as we know, in the UK right now they regard refugees and asylum seekers from Afghanistan to not have credible cases because the claim is that the Taliban is under control. Even though human rights he said made very clear that they know the Taliban…

KR: I believe that Trump is going to be sending in troops. So I don't know why you send in troops if everything was under control? But the Home Office in the U.K. has notices on their website saying that British citizens should not travel to Afghanistan because it's a dangerous country — but we’re prepared to send people back there, which is outrageous.

CO: And people who have death sentences on them.

KR: Yeah, exactly.

CO: There was an enormous Twitter campaign in the past few hours — #SaveSamim — do you think that made the difference?

KR: I don't know? It made us feel like we were doing something, and we Samim’s case to the forefront. And now, we can carry on with that — with the campaign. The judge's decision… who knows if he's on Twitter?

CO: And just when you finally get to see him, which you anticipate you will, what do you anticipate that's going to be like? What are you going to say to him?

KR: Oh, I don't know. Just welcome home and I want him to come home to my house. But, obviously, he can't yet. I don’t know? I’ll just give him a hug.

CO: They’re going to take him to detention again, are they?

KR: I imagine so, yes.

CO: Ms. Rafferty, we will keep in touch with you and follow these developments.

KR: OK. Thank you so much for your help and being interested in Samim’s case.

CO: Thank you. Good night.

KR: Thank you. Bye.

JD: Kavel Rafferty is Samim Bigzad’s former roommate and friend in London, UK. We spoke with her moments after Mr. Bigzad’s deportation to Afghanistan was reversed at the last minute. For more on the story, go to www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Post rock]

Irma Marathon

Guest: Ted Dominick

JD: Irma has moved on. But, in the Florida Keys, reminders of the powerful hurricane are everywhere. On Facebook, evacuated residents are desperately trying to get in touch with people who stayed behind to ride out the storm, and asking for photographs of what has been left of the homes they left behind. Today, the middle Keys, near the city of Marathon, are still without phone service, electricity and basic services. Ted Dominick owns a home and a resort near Marathon; he was able to make it into the area to survey the damage. We reached him in Key Largo.

CO: Ted, can you describe the level of devastation in Marathon right now?

TED DOMINICK: I would say that the level on the ocean side is catastrophic, bay side fairly well. You know in some areas it's worse than others. But ocean side from Islamorada to Marathon is very, very bad. And, of course, the lower Keys are even worse.

CO: And so just describe if you would what you saw?

TD: Just devastation. I mean everything is flattened. If you had a home that was raised on stilts and maybe concrete with aluminum roof or the metal roof, you probably fared fairly well. Anything ground level, any of the modular homes and mobile homes, those are all gone. All the vegetation is gone. It's weird you could just see from like one end of the the road to the other. My property is on the ocean and I have furniture literally out on the main highway, which is you know a quarter mile away. So it’s that bad.

CO: What's left of your house?

TD: I have a little resort there and not much. It's just completely devastated. I mean all the vegetation the you know the structure itself was damaged, it was flooded, there was about four feet of surge in my property. So the water came up into the rooms you know three or four feet, so all the furniture… you know everything is ruined. It's just a wasteland. I mean there's boats lying on the highway — boats and jet skis — and you know structures and it's just a mess. They're clearing the roads now though, finally, the main road is finally being cleared. And then you know access to the side roads… some roads you can't even get down the side roads. A lot of people are trying to reach out and have me look at their property and I can't even get to them.

CO: And this is the business that you have down there that you're looking in on. What was it like for you to see that?

TD: It's devastating. It's taken me about five years to get that property up and running. And we actually became the number one little resort in Marathon on Trip Advisor, and we've been that way for a couple of years. And now, it's just basically starting over again from scratch — I mean from literally scratch.

CO: Can you get further than Marathon? Can you get down any closer to Key West?

TD: I did not you know I don't need to go that far, but I know that like for the eye hit and stuff like that it is even worse. I can't imagine it being any worse, but yeah. I also have a home in Marathon as well and that was elevated and I put shutters up and you know things like that. It fared well, but it got flooded. And then, of course, the marina that was next to me… I have some photos I could send you. I have you know a large yacht that basically floated up and is in the middle of the parking lot. Just boats tossed around like you know Matchbox cars — it's unbelievable.

CO: How are people doing?

TD: Well, the people you know there's no water, no power and there's no communication down there. So you know some of the people that stayed are very resilient because they’re boaters, so they're you know used to living on the sailboat and things like that. So I think they have enough food. Like I'm out of food right now — today's going to be my last day here because there's no restaurants and no grocery stores open yet. And I only brought supplies for a couple of days, so I'm going to have to head back north this afternoon. But I don't know what they're doing down there? I hope that you know something is opened soon.

CO: And you say they’re starting to clear the highway and open up the roads, but what do people need in Marathon right now?

TD: Well right now, I can tell you there's no food, there's no place to get water and there's no stores open and there's definitely no fuel. There's no power, so there's no cell service, phones don't work, the cable TV doesn't work — it's just desolate. You know there's nothing there. So I would say they need everything.

CO: And how many people are there?

TD: You know it's hard to tell. A lot of people evacuated, but I know like all the boaters are there, there are a lot of long-term residents that refused to leave. I saw people yesterday you know walking around, there’s people biking, there’s cars down there. But you know there's a curfew as well, so you have to be you know in by 6:30 p.m. and I think it's starts at 7:00 a.m.

CO: Why is there a curfew?

TD: Well, they want to limit the looting if there's any looting going on. Plus, it's so, so dark — it's just pitch black because there's no lights and no power. I'm sure it's for safety reasons as well.

CO: For you to see the keys in this condition, the drive you had and seeing your business and your home, what was it like for you to see that?

TD: It's super disheartening. I worked a long, long time to get my business to where it was at. And I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way with their houses. And when you come down, especially when you get to the point where you think you're done or you do this you know kind of go on autopilot and to have to start over again and it's super disheartening. It's like you kind of want to give up, but you know you'll just fight through it again and make it happen again. We did it before; we’ll do it again. It's going to be fine. I mean it's just going to take a long time.

CO: Well Ted, I admire your spirit.

TD: Thank you.

CO: Thanks for speaking with us. Bye bye.

TD: Take care. Bye.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: We reached Ted Dominick in Key Largo, Florida. And if you would like to know more on this story, or see more about the disaster Irma has rent I guess in Key Largo, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Peter Hall obit

JD: “We all stand on the shoulders of giants — and Peter Hall's shoulders supported the entirety of British theatre as we know it.” That is how the current director of the ukase National Theatre described his predecessor, Peter Hall. The influential British theatre director, who also worked in opera and film, died yesterday in London. He was 86-years-old. Mr. Hall was known for founding the Royal Shakespeare Company. He would later go on to become the director of the National Theatre. He was also a strong defender of public funding for the arts. And as a writer for The New Statesman described it, was, at one time, quote, “a thorn in the side of Margaret Thatcher.” Unquote. Here's a clip of Peter Hall speaking about the importance of theatre companies. I was posted by the online archival website, “Web of Stories.”

SOUNDCLIP

PETER HALL: One of the fascinating things about the theatre I think worldwide is that practically every advance — every development of any importance — has come out of a company's situation. If you look at Stanislavski’s work with Chekov, Brecht's work with the Berlin Ensemble, Jean Louis Barrault’s company, everybody and I hope to say now, perhaps in small-print, Peter Hall’s Royal Shakespeare Company for a certain time made advances, made new kinds of drama because of the company. Now what is it about a company? Well, it's a group of actors that stay together long enough to know not only how they like each other, but how they dislike each other. I mean there's a real living quality. I think why I do what I do is because it's not for success. I'm not quite sure what success is because as has many hues. It’s not for money, it's not for publicity, it's because if you have the right group, the right ensemble, the right company, you achieve a creativity and a sharing with everybody, which makes you think yeah, this is how a good family ought to be. This is how good tribe ought to be, a good country, a good democracy, a good world, indeed. And you actually come out of rehearsal better than you went in, having done work which is better than you are. And that that also goes for the for the actors as well.

JD: That was British theatre pioneer,r and founder of the Royal Shakespeare Company, Peter Hall. Peter Hall died this week. He was 86-years-old.

[Music: Ambient]

Hot dog hijinks mayor

Guest: Charles Pender

JD: Charles Pender is running for re-election as mayor of Corner Brook, Newfoundland. And so far, I think it's safe to say it has been the strangest campaign of his political career. Twice now, vandals have defaced his property using an unlikely weapon of choice: wieners… as in hot dogs. We reached Charles Pender in Corner Brook.

CO: Mayor Pender, how did this hot dog thing begin?

CHARLES PENDER: Quite oddly, I had a call from somebody the morning after we put out our first signs and that somebody called me and said you know somebody’s defaced one of your signs. And went up and had a look and saw that it had been I guess a slit cut into it and a wiener stuck in the picture with my mouth would be.

CO: That's a real wiener? Like a real hot dog?

CP: A hot dog wiener, yes indeed.

CO: With the bun? Or just on its own?

CP: No, just the wiener. I don't know maybe they couldn't afford cigars, I have no idea?

CO: All right. So they were stuck right into like where your mouth is on the poster?

CP: Yes.

CO: How many did you find like that?

CP: Well, we only put up for that night just to start — they’re brand new signs — and there were four different areas of the city, so somebody had to go find them first in the middle of the night, and do the same thing to each one of them.

CO: And how did you react when you saw that?

CP: Well, you know you're always disappointed when you see that. It's you know a sign of the old, dirty political tricks and you hope that it won't happen again. But when you make note of it, usually it puts an end to it most times.

CO: So did you complain? Did you make a public statement about that hot dog thing?

CP: Oh, I just took a picture and put it on Twitter and said so you know this is what happened to my signs and I just left it there. Of course, it took off on its own, but that's all we did.

CO: OK. It took off on his own in what way?

CP: Well, you know I started hearing from other people and you know most people say it's ridiculous. You know why is this happening and so on? And we just brush it off and said look, you know let's just keep going and move on and forget about that. And we have more important issues to deal with.

CO: And then what happened?

CP: Well, a week later, I went out in the morning to my car and somebody had come up in the evening and dropped hot dog wieners — loose wieners — on my windshield in my car while we were asleep at night I guess. So I assume the same culprits. I have no idea, but there you go.

CO: How many wieners were on your car?

CP: I didn't count them, but I think it was the rest of the pack — so probably four or six, I have no idea.

CO: So you could count out that probably 12 wieners all altogether had been dumped on you one way or another.

CP: Yeah, I think I think somebody was driving around with a pack of wieners in the car for the rest of the week, just trying to find out what to do with them or figure something out.

CO; And what did you think of that? Did it feel as if it was a bit of a different thing than the signs?

CP: It's kind of bizarre and it's a bit weird, right? Because the signs are one thing, but when people come onto your property at night when you're asleep and your family's home and you know it's funny that it's only hot dog wieners or whatever — but you know if it was something more serious, it's sort of you know it lends itself to that. Or if somebody walks up and catches somebody doing something what happens then sort of thing, right? But other than that, I mean I reported it to the police only so that they could you know look at any surveillance cameras that are around where the incidents happened. And other than that, I don't ever expect you'll ever catch who did it, right?

CO: But I mean why wieners? Why hot dogs? What do you think the message is?

CP: I have no idea. Like I said, maybe they couldn't afford cigars. I don't know? It makes no sense to anyone. So I'm not a hot dog, I’m not out riding motorcycles and doing wheelies and things like that — so really don't know?

CO: There's know nothing about being a hot dog eater? Did you eat how dogs? Have you been caught on camera eating a sausage someplace?

CP: I don't know? I mean I support the local charities, whether it's a hamburger or hot dog. So maybe you know I don't know.

CO: So this has never come up before. Wieners have never been a theme that's you've been hit with before?

CP: Nope, not at all. You know who knows what's going on people's heads when they're driving around in the middle of night.

CO: With half-a-dozen hot dogs in the car.

CP: With nothing else to do with a pack a hot dog and a box cutter I suppose. You know who knows?

CO: Yeah, but it sounds like I mean right away, after your signs went up, that they should be right on top of that and find all the signs that you put up and do the same thing to each of them. It sounds like somebody wasn’t just the kind of well what am I going to with these hot dogs.

CP: Yeah well, you know I think the first incident was well-planned and timed. And soon as they knew that one was up, they knew exactly what they're going to do. Like I said, it was political tricks — something you expected in the 60s or 70s. But you certainly don't expect it these days. But you know it's a political campaign. We’re only a small community, but there's always one or two or two out there that have nothing better to do and think they're funny or whatever. I think they're supporting somebody, or showing you know that they're not supporting somebody — who knows right?

CO: Is anyone worried about it?

CP: Not really. I don't think. You know again, by making it public hopefully it’s stopped. You know people are keeping an eye on their properties where my signs are. You know the police are patrolling, watching my house and things like that, which is kind of ridiculous when you think of a small community like ours. So you know we just forget about that and move on sort of thing. And you know, as we said, we were a little behind, so we're going to try to catch up, as we said, and you know and see where we go.

CO: Any chance it's your political rivals who are doing this hot dog thing?

CP: Well, I can't point the finger. I have no idea, right? So it can be anyone. It could be somebody who thinks they're supporting somebody or you know who knows?

CO: I understand that you are you are trying to make light of it. You’ve described as “Weiner Gate”.

CP: Yeah. “Weiner Gate” or the “Weiner Incident”, whatever you want to call it — you know we're going to do a bun-raiser at the end of this. We’re going to have a barbecue and you know I'm going to bring the wieners; you bring your buns and maybe we'll raise some money for the food bank or something like that, you know?

CO: I don't relish the idea of that.

CP: Yeah, absolutely, right? We’ll see what we can mustard up.

CO: You can get to the meat of the issue.

CP: Absolutely.

CO: So anyway, for the time being, the police are watching, you're thinking you don't want to make a big deal out of this.

CP: No, you know there are so many more serious things to talk about. And you know if people want to go and waste of time and money and throw hot dog wieners around I'm sure the crows are happy and you know they got the bit of attention they're looking for, so who cares? You know we'll move on with other things.

CO: All right. Well, I hope that's the end of it. Mayor Pender, it’s good to talk to you. Thanks.

CP: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

CO: Bye.

JD: : We reached Mayor Charles Pender in Corner Brook, Newfoundland.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Mikheil Saakashvili, Alberta wildfires

Mikheil Saakashvili

Guest: Mikheil Saakashvili

JD: Mikhail Saakashvili is making a comeback. On Sunday, the politician forced his way across Ukraine's Western border, backed by hundreds of supporters. Mr. Saakashvili was president of Georgia from 2004 to 2013. After that, he gave up his Georgian citizenship to become the governor of Ukraine's Odessa region. But President Petro Poroshenko stripped him of his Ukrainian citizenship last year, leaving him stateless. We reached Mikheil Saakashvili in Lviv, Ukraine.

CO: Mr. Saakashvili, what are you attempting to do by entering Ukraine?

MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI: Well, I entered Ukraine as an Ukrainian citizen, even if President Poroshenko deprived me with his decree of nationality in violation of Ukrainian constitution, in violation of international law and a clear intent to get rid of a political opponent. But I still have my permanent home in Ukraine. I have a political party, which I lead in Ukraine. I have you know lots of my supporters in Ukraine, thousands of whom and came to the border to greet me. And so I came back to protect my rights in the court and to pursue my political activities.

CO: Can you just tell us can you describe the scene at the border when you crossed into Ukraine?

MS: You know as soon as we arrived at the land border, Ukrainian border guards declared that the border passage point was mine and nobody would be allowed in. And when we approached these special troops, they told us not to get into contact with them. I tried to hand over my statement and my passport — they refused to take it. And so this standoff — this stalemate — was taking place or was lasting for several hours. And there were also thousands of my supporters.

CO: How did you finally get across?

MS: Yes, so what happened that basically up to 10,000 of my supporters gathered on that point on the other side, and people were squeezed and stranded and they were told that the place is mined and there was a threat of explosion. I guess some of the people panicked, I guess some of the people got very angry and they just you know pushed through the ranks of the border guards, not that they put up much of a resistance, came to me and nobody really asked me. They just took me and took me over to the Ukraine. Now having said that, once they brought me in, I went to Ukrainian Immigration Services and still submitted my declaration on protection status, which entitles me to stay in Ukraine until the Ukrainian court decides whether I have a right to stay in Ukraine or not. Meanwhile, I'll peruse my political activity.

CO: OK. But, they’re saying that you entered illegally, and even what you've described would constitute an illegal entry. And they also say that about 16 border guards and National Guardsmen were injured in scuffles with your supporters.

MS: This is a blatant lie. We were today at the hospital, there are three people very lightly hurt. And all of them say because of basically the overcrowding, not because of clash. Second, they're saying it's illegal but my lawyers are saying and lots of people think exactly the opposite. I had the right to be in Ukraine. Living stateless reminds me of the worst times of Soviet times — Soviet period — when they used to deprive dissidents and throw them out of the country. I don't think Ukraine that is democratic in the modern world ever allow its leaders to do things like that.

CO: OK, you just said that you're living stateless. So are you a citizen of Ukraine or not? Because Mr. Poroshenko has stripped you of that citizenship, has he not?

MS: I believe that I am stateless. I believe that Poroshenko’s violated the Ukrainian constitution.

CO: But you are still stateless, right? You've been stripped of your citizenship to Ukraine.

MS: Yes because President Poroshenko did it in five minutes, a secret procedure without any prior notification, without any due process, without any hearings. So I have my right to go to the Ukrainian court to have my day in the court, to have a public hearing to hold my ground as a Ukrainian citizen and I'm not giving up on Ukrainian people. I'm committed to the Ukrainian people, and I think all these corrupt officials that tried to get rid of me because they are scared me talking about their corruption. To just you know contain their own passions and follow the rule of law and procedure.

CO: When you talk about them being corrupt, and you say, at the same time you, are wanted in your own country — or former country of Georgia — on charges of corruption.

MS: First of all, you are grossly misinformed. There is no charge of corruption — you can check. There is a charge of misappropriation of presidential office funds and no country in the world recognizes them. Under my leadership, Georgia became one of Europe’s top fighters — not only in Eastern Europe — in Europe of corruption. On my watch, Georgia's economy grew 400 per cent and there are many other benchmarks, including fighting with corruption with which Georgia’s rightly proud. And that’s why I’m quite popular in Ukraine because Ukrainians would like to see the same in Ukraine.

CO: OK. You mentioned Georgia, and people may recall back in 2003, a very dramatic time when you led a delegation, you stormed the Georgian parliament and ousted President Edward Shevardnadze at that point — that was the Rose Revolution. I'm wondering are you attempting some kind of a coup? I mean you crossed the border with former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, is this a coup attempt?

MS: Look, we I crossed the border together with legitimate members of Ukrainian parliament. These are illegitimate Ukrainian-elected politicians, they don't have weapons and they don't have military guns. What coup are you talking about?

CO: You did a bloodless coup with the Rose Revolution.

MS: No, these are elected members of the Ukrainian parliament. We were accompanied by members of the European Parliament when we crossing into Ukraine. We were accompanied by a multimedia Ukrainian effort. And we were acting in a transparent matter peacefully. And the only thing we were asking for is proper legal procedure. We are not asking for any immediate change of power in Ukraine, we are asking for a proper election system and rules for transparency and for a halt to corruption. We will oppose any coup or any attempt to change Ukraine because we have a steak in a stable, democratic, free Ukraine.

CO: And just quickly, are you going to challenge President Poroshenko for the presidency?

MS: I said I’m certainly challenging many of his methods, but I don't think he's my personal adversary. I think we are challenging our system. I don’t aspire for any position in Ukraine. I'm not willing to be president of Ukraine. I'll do my best together with other political leaders to change the entire political system and to change the political class here.

CO: All right. We'll be watching. Mr. Saakashvili, thank you.

MS: Thanks so much.

JD: Mikheil Saakashvili is the former president of Georgia and governor of Odessa. He is currently stateless. We reached him in Lviv, Ukraine. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Edith Winter obit

JD: Edith Windsor began by looking for a tax refund. But in the end, she brought down the U.S. Defense of Marriage Act, which excluded gay married couples from federal recognition as spouses. Ms. Windsor died today. She was 88-years-old. Edith Windsor's love, Thea Spyer, proposed to her in 1967. Their engagement was sealed with a broach, rather than a ring, which would have raised too many questions in a time when their relationship was still taboo. The pair were engaged for 40 years. And in 2007, Ms Windsor and Dr. Spyer traveled to Canada, they got married and then returned to their home in New York. In 2009, Dr. Spyer died and Ms. Windsor inherited her estate. The IRS demanded payment of estate taxes — that's a payment from which a heterosexual spouse would have been exempt, so Ms. Windsor sued. Here's part of what she had to say outside the U.S. Supreme Court as the case kicked off, in March of 2013.

SOUNDCLIP

EDITH WINDSOR: I am today an out lesbian, OK? Who just sued the United States of America, which is kind of overwhelming for me. When my beautiful, sparkling Thea died four years ago, I was overcome with grief. In the midst of my grief, I realized that the federal government was treating us as strangers and I paid a humongous estate tax. And in meant selling a lot of stuff to do it and it wasn't easy. I live on a fixed income and it was easy. When our marriage appeared in the New York Times we heard from literally hundreds of people I mean little playmates and schoolmates and colleagues and friends and relatives, all congratulating us and sending love because we were married. So it’s a magic word for anybody who doesn't understand why we want it and why we need it OK it is magic. Today is like a spectacular event for me. I mean it’s a lifetime kind of event. And I know that the spirit of my late spouse, the Thea Spyer, is right here watching and listening and would be very proud and happy of where we've come to. I thought the justices were gentle, if that's a word I want. OK, they were direct, they asked all the right questions. I didn't feel any hostility, OK? Or any sense of inferiority. I felt very respected and I think it's going to be good.

JD: That I was Edith Windsor outside the U.S. Supreme Court in March of 2013, when she sued to bring down the Defense of Marriage Act. The Act defined marriage as exclusively heterosexual. Ms. Windsor won that case, and she paved the way for full federal recognition for same sex couples in the United States. Edith Windsor died today. She was 88-years-old.

[Music: Ambient]

Alberta wildfires

Guest: Rod Leland

JD: A wildfire in southern Alberta has cut one couple's honeymoon short. Instead of celebrating their new marriage, Rod and Tracy Leland spent the days after their wedding trying to save Rod's family cottage. That was before they were ordered to leave on Friday, along with everyone else in Watertown Lakes National Park. Last night, the wildfire in the area expanded by 50 per cent. We reached Rod Leland in Lethbridge.

CO: Rod, have you heard any news yet? Do you know if your family cabin is still standing?

ROD: LELAND: So we've been watching the news and the reports that have been coming in very closely. And we've seen the seen and heard that there's been some losses in the town like the visitors’ centre, but we don't have specific news about our college. But we're hopeful, it sounds like most of the town site is intact.

CO: And how can you monitor it? What can we do to find out how close the fire is getting to your place?

RL: I'm a bit of a geek myself and so I'm piecing together different reports from reporters that are utilizing Twitter. Last night, I was using satellite mapping from the USDA Forest Service active fire mapping program and viewing that on Google Earth and some of those pictures were circulating on Twitter as well. But I'm just trying to amalgamate all the different news sources and, of course, that's difficult. It can be hard to get information out just to ensure the safety of the people that are working in the area.

CO: Now there's a lovely picture of you in the Calgary Herald with your bride, newlywed and I’m presuming that beautiful background is that your cabin, is that right?

RL: It's very close. It's Waterton Lake, so just up the road. We got married on Sunday, September 3^rd, on the lawn of our cabin there in Waterton. And that was a picture from just a little bit later on in the day.

CO: And did you have any idea at that point that there was a wildfire risk pending?

RL: So we were starting to get indications. After our ceremony, we had planned to go up the parkway and take our bridal party photos at Cameron Lake. And we learned just before the ceremony that the parkway was closed due to fire risk and that was on Sunday. And by the time Tuesday came around, the evacuation alert was officially ordered by Parks Canada, we got down to work.

CO: What do you mean we got down to work?

RL: Well, we did everything we could in terms of fire smart and trying to protect the cabin. So I grabbed the chainsaw and cut off some tree limbs that were too near to the cabin and raked out any fuel near the foundation of our structure and started finding a position of sprinklers up on the roof.

CO: Did you get information from somewhere as to how you might fireproof your place?

RL: Well, my brother and also the best man at my wedding is a helitack wildland firefighter in British Columbia, and so I have a general knowledge of it myself. But I also called him for advice and said hey, what are the liabilities around our cabin? What should I attack first and he gave me a rundown of that. And then also the park was very forthcoming in the community meetings about precautions that residents could take. And so I took both of those into consideration.

CO: Doesn't sound like you got much of a honeymoon after this wedding?

RL: No, not very much. It was a working honeymoon I think.

CO: So was your bride involved in all of these preparations as well?

RL: Oh, absolutely. She's an incredible woman and an incredible partner, and we tag-teamed the whole thing. So she was pulling pictures off the wall of our family cabin and packing up the guest books and I was outside with the rake, and she helped me drag all of our deadfall out to the road and everything like that. And we worked hand-in-hand for two days preparing.

CO: Now, when you say she took the photos and the photo albums you think that your concern is that it might be destroyed?

RL: I mean I think anyone might have that thought when an evacuation alert and then an order comes down for a place you're in. And so our cabin has been through numerous natural disasters, including major floods. And every time it's kind of the same script, which is grab the guest books, which are signed by every guest that's ever come down and stayed at the cabin. And then, of course, there's some pictures and memories and it was serendipitous for us because we had a trailer down to transport all of our wedding signage and things like that. And so we had extra room and put the memories in and left a note on the door. And we managed to head over a couple hours actually before the order came down.

CO: what does the note on the door say?

RL: I can read it to you. So it says all residents evacuated Friday September 8, we said that the doors are locked, the gas and the electricity is still on. And then we left some contact phone numbers and that's one of the things that the park suggested we do to help them.

CO: And what does that cottage mean to you and your family?

RL: It's pretty ineffable; it's hard to describe. One of the things I said is that a good half of the photos that made it into my birth to current time wedding slideshow were from Waterton. They were of my family on the deck of the cabin and me as a toddler, down at Bertha Bay, or on top of Bear’s Hump on Crandell there. And for all of our entire extended family, it's a thread that runs through our lives, that's so vital and so important and so special to us. And I think anyone who spent any amount of time in the park would relate that sentiment is that it's just such a special place and it's really hard to describe unless you've spent some time down there.

CO: How hard was it to know that you had to leave? That you had to evacuate?

RL: We were in high spirit. We were actually very lucky in the sense that we were down mid-week, when this happened. I think our property was one of the most well prepared in the park in terms of how much time we had to get our memories out and how much time we had to prepare our cabin in terms of fire smart activities. We saw how much work was going into preparing resources to keep the town site safe. And that was really encouraging. We've spent time on Friday morning running Gatorade and cold water and Cliff bars out to some of the Ontario firefighters that were on export doing fire smart activities around the town site. And we feel really good about it.

CO: They're calling the fire, quote, “dynamic”, and you say the resources I mean 185 firefighters, 24 helicopters, air tankers, all active on that Waterton fire.

RL: Yeah, it's an incredible set of resources, and we saw them trickling in during the alert. And I've been following, obviously, the progress online, and the resources just keep coming and it's very encouraging. And certainly, it's a scary situation and I think dynamic is an understatement. If you watch the fire's progress last night, it was downright scary — let alone dynamic. Look, we have to trust in the system and trust in the people and that's all you can do as a bystander.

CO We will leave it there. Congratulations on your wedding, and thanks for speaking with us, Rod.

RL: Thanks very much, Carol. Have a great afternoon.

CO: Bye bye.

RL: Bye bye.

JD: That was Rod Leland in Lethbridge, Alberta. To see photographs of his wedding and of Rod's family cabin, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Gord Downie Polaris

JD: Late last year, Gord Downie played a handful of shows, during which he and his band performed the entirety of his “Secret Path” album. After one of the first songs at the Toronto concert, when the thunderous clapping died down, he said, quote, “Applause will get harder and that's OK. OK?” And he was right in the sense that the album gets sadder and sadder as it goes on. “Secret Path” tell tells the story of Chanie Wenjack — who left a residential school in Kenora, Ontario in October of 1966, to try to walk back to his home, six-hundred kilometers away. He died a week later, of exposure and hunger, beside a railroad track. “Secret Path” is one of 10 albums on the shortlist for the 2017 Polaris Music Prize, awarded annually to the best Canadian album of the year.

3

Part 3: Dragon Fly Eyes: TIFF director feature interview, Mohawk drug company, ABBA reunion

Dragon Fly Eyes: TIFF director feature interview

Guests: Xu Bing, Mengchen Wen

JD: Xu Bing is a Chinese artist famous first print making skills and installations. But this year, he embarked on his most ambitious project yet: his first feature-length film. It is called “Dragon Fly Eyes”, and it is already being described as a “cult favorite” and a “cinema studies staple”. That it's because Xu Bing has managed to create a fictional film, using real-life surveillance-camera recordings. Here's a short taste. This is from the movie trailer.

SOUNDCLIP

COMPUTER VOICE: This is Dragon Fly. Dragon Fly has 28,000 eyes, blinking 40,000 times per second. Hour-by-hour checking.

[Sound: Man speaking Mandarin]

COMPUTER VOICE: Second-by-second deleting.

JD: That is a clip from the trailer for the new Chinese movie “Dragon Fly Eyes”. Its director, Xu Bing, is in town to premiere his film at the Toronto International Film Festival. And ahead of the movie screening tonight, he joined Carol in studio to speak about it. He was also accompanied by Mengchen Wen, who helped interpret the interview.

CO: Xu Bing, welcome to As It happens.

XU BING: Thank you.

CO: And I want to thank Mengchen, who is here going to do the interpretation for us. Thank you, Mengchen.

MENGCHEN WEN: Thank you.

CO: This is an amazing film to watch, very disturbing, uncomfortable, violent, so many things — so many things going on. And, at the same time, we have to understand it's all real — it all really happened. How did you come up with the idea to make a film based on surveillance videos?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] The idea actually from 2013. And I saw a lot of TV programs, which about legal. And I thought the civilian camera footage inside is very interesting. They are very real, which is different from the footage we saw from the feature-film. So came up with the idea that probably we can use this footage to be a feature film that would be very interesting.

CO: But this footage — this film footage — you got is I mean, obviously, from hundreds of different sources. It's just all over the place. And how did you pull it all together? I mean did you have to go physically and get these cameras and talk to people and convince them to let you have their footage? Or how did you actually get thousands — I understand between seven and ten thousand hours that you looked at — how did you get it?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] At the beginning, I asked my friend from the TV station to get me their surveillance footage. But they are very little — not enough. We stopped the project in 2014. And at the end of 2014, we found there were lots of surveillance videos on the internet.

CO: That was in cloud.

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] yes, in a cloud database. So we started this project again. In our studio there are 20 Computer we used as computers to download those videos. And after that, we collected over 10,000 of this kind of footage just to make this film.

CO: The clips that you use in the film, and we'll get to what the story is in a second, because even that is extraordinary. But the clips that you're using, some of them are just astonishingly violent. I mean you capture horrible accidents, planes falling from skies, subway trains being wrecked, car accidents that you know children who almost get run over and then the other ones are very claustrophobic and very tight. You know you're looking at intimate places where people are changing their clothes in changing rooms, or they're in restaurants. How did you feel when you were watching all of this real footage? What effect did that have on you?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] So yes, when we saw those videos for a long time, we feel uncomfortable and we became very careful when we get out of our home. So I feel uncomfortable and insecure actually because there are lots of camera out of the home. So this is a thing out of our logic — out of our mind. So the footage — CCTV footage — sometimes are very quiet. You have to wait something happen, maybe over 10 or more than that hours, but sometimes it just suddenly happens something. So that's a thing I want to show in this film.

CO: And the people in your video are real, so are they aware that you have got their images and put them together in this video?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] Yes, they know they are actually in the camera. I feel nervous when the project in the middle. I want to know the idea of the characters in the footage. So we actually created a life out of their real life. So we start to find them and to let them know they are actually inside of a film.

CO: And you got permission from everybody?

XB: We got permission from them because the copyright thing. We need to go find them and get permission.

CO: Wow.

XB: And I want talking to them how their idea about this. We used them this image put on film and we created this fake story into their real life.

CO: A fake story in their real-life. Now, I want to ask you about the actual story because you're using all of this footage, you put it together, it's not random, it has as a shape, a narrative. What is the story that you're telling? Because this is a feature-film, isn't it?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] The story is about a woman and a man. And the younger actually from a Buddhist temple and then she leaves the temple to go to the city to find a new life. She becomes a worker in a milk factory. She met a boy and the boy falls in love with this girl because the girl is innocent. Although, she is not really pretty. So he something for her and because of this accident, she was fired by their milk factory. And she has to go to the big city to find a new job. Then he follow her. And there he got accident and getting to the jail. After he get out from the jail, he found he cannot find her. So, at that time, she do a plastic surgery. That's the reason that he cannot find her. And one day, he found there is a girl — a pop star online — whose voice is very similar to her. So he think that probably this girl — this pop star — is her.

CO: I'm speaking with Xu bing, he's a Chinese artist and filmmaker. And he's in Toronto for the premiere of his film at TIFF, “Dragon Fly Eyes”. It uses real surveillance footage in telling a fictional story. And this plastic surgery is a big part of your film. I understand it's very popular in China, as it is in many places. What's the story behind that? Why were you so interested in having the whole idea of plastic surgery as part of your movie?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] So at the beginning, because my project actually not ordinary and a feature-film. So there is no fixed the image of a main character. So people talk to me that probably you need something to allow the character to change the face every time. So that's why I think about to use plastic surgery to let the story to start.

CO: It's a great device.

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] But, of course, there is some connection between the surveillance video with plastic surgery. So we think there is a relationship between appearance and the inside.

CO: Relationship between how people look and what they’re feeling inside?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] Yes.

CO: I mean people have to see this film because there's nothing like this. And it’s for a fact no one has ever done a film out of CCTV video before. I wonder how many of these cameras are there in China? How much surveillance footage, how many cameras are actually watching people in China?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] We did do some research about some of the camera in China, but the exact sum I cannot remember actually — but there are many. And I can provide you a statistic that there are 15 per centage rate of camera will be increased every year in China. There are lots of cameras in the world actually —not just in China. And when you come to this building — come to the CBC building for working — you will see lots of camera around you, on the road when you back to home, there are still lots of camera. So what I want to say is the world we leave is like shooting studio that we actually are character inside.

CO: You say it's like a studio where we're all characters inside, like a Truman movie. But, at the same time, people care about their privacy. I mean others would say this is like Big Brother is watching you, and not like we're in a movie. People here care about how much surveillance there is. What do people in China think about that?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] I think the relationship between us and the surveillance video is different from the Big Brother time because in that time, the surveillance video — or CCTV video — belong to the government. But right now, actually those surveillance-cameras belong to the private person — private company. So I call this time as post-CCTV time. The attitude of people towards the surveillance video is different from the Big Brothers time I think.

CO: Bing, I want to ask you about being an artist in China because we know that there is a lot of censorship of artists, and even persecution of artists in China. How difficult is it for you to actually work? To do what you want to do in China?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] There indeed are some censorship in China. In the past time, the government didn't understand contemporary art. Well, I am a contemporary art artist. So I do suffer sometimes before. But right now, the government found the contemporary art actually from their personal idea of the artist is not related to the public actually. So they start to give them freedom. The gunman to start to give the artist a freedom to do their own art in the contemporary art area. I think that government start to give more space to contemporary art artist to give them more space to do their art. But in the film industry, is still very sensitive things. The government still have their own control to the film. Like in China, we do have the censorship for film. They exam any sexy footage or politic footage inside of your film. But this is the first time I made a film, so I didn't realize that there is a big effect on me.

CO: And have you been censored? Did the Chinese authorities screen your film and say what could be shown? Did they censor it in any way?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] So we already sent the film to censorship institute in China, but we didn't get any reply from them yet. So we're still waiting for the answer.

CO: I know you're living part-time in the United States and going back and forth to China. If you do have trouble with the authorities making the film, do you think you will stay in the United States?

XB: [Speaking: Mandarin]

MW: [Translating] I think it's not such serious. So I hope I can stay in China because China is country. There are lots of problems, but you can say the experimental sides. So experimental contemporary art artist, I would like to stay in China to find out those things. I got lots of inspiration from China, from those problems and those experimental sides.

CO: Well, Xu Bing,I hope you are able to keep making your films. This is quite extraordinary what you've done and congratulations to you and thank you for being here.

XB: Thank you.

JD: That Xu Bing, the director of “Dragon Fly Eyes”, accompanied by Mengchen Wen, who helped interpret. Mr. Xu’s film, “Dragon Fly Eyes”, premieres tonight at the TIFF Bell Lightbox. There will be additional screenings of his film September 14 and 17^th.

[Music: Ambient]

Mohawk drug company

Guest: Dale White

JD: A multinational drug company called Allergan has found a novel way to protect its profits. Allergan has the exclusive rights to a drug used to treat dry eyes. It is called Restasis, and it nets the company as much as 1.5 billion dollars a year. Well, now generic drug companies are challenging Allergan’s patent. And so on Friday, the company announced that it had transferred the intellectual property to the St. Regis Mohawk tribe. The tribe will then lease the patent back to Allergan. And the reason that makes sense is that American Indian tribes have a special legal status. It is called sovereign immunity. Basically, it means they're just really hard to sue. Dale White is the General Counsel for the St. Regis Mohawk tribe. We reached him in Akwesasne, New York.

CO: Mr. White, who first brought this idea to the St. Regis Mohawks?

DALE WHITE: We learned about it from a law firm in Dallas, Texas.

CO: And what was their pitch?

DW: I wouldn’t say it was a pitch. We'd already had a relationship with them as an attorney that we were working with to acquire patents.

CO: What do you mean acquire patents? What were you pursuing?

DW: It's a business model where idea originated with the firm and they had, earlier in the year, represented a state university research foundation that had patents. And they did not want to have those patents examined in the interim party review panel — that's a panel that a lot of companies, large companies, that have patents protected do not want to appear in — because the rules are skewed against them, as opposed to having it examined in federal court. So they were representing a state-owned University, and so they invoked the university's sovereign immunity — immunity from suit because it's a state entity. And in a 33 page opinion, the appeal board affirmed that. So the firm then had the idea that other sovereigns, including Indian tribes, could also assert that defense so they approached us.

CO: But I understand the university seeking this for patents and research that they were actually involved with. Why was St. Regis Mohawk tribe willing to take this on as a business model? What was in it for you?

DW: Revenue, it's as simple as that. Our community, like other native communities in the United States and in Canada, are in need of diversification of our community businesses. We have a casino that does quite well. And then you have U.S. federal funding to the tribe and then you have a small portion, actually a fairly significant portion, from the state government. So those three are the sources of revenue that the tribe relies upon, and there's really a problem with that when you look at it in terms of long-term. The casinos revenues are good, but I think if you talk to any tribes that have casinos, they rely on those revenues, but they cannot and do not count on those revenues being provided forever. And if you look at state and federal funding, especially under the current administration, that funding is going to be at least in the short term is from what we see reduced.

CO: How much money does it represent?

DW: Right now, the only revenue that we've received is this upfront payment of 13.75 million dollars from Allergan.

CO: One report is that you might get about $15 million a year, in addition to the initial payment, is that right?

DW: Right. But that would be dependent on the patent continuing to be valid. We don't believe that we will lose the sovereign immunity case. But if we lost the sovereign immunity case at some point along the road, which would be an unprecedented decision, if that happened, then the patents would not be protected and there is a possibility that the patents could be overturned — invalidated. If that happened then are our royalty opportunity would end.

CO: There are many who would say I would imagine that we can understand why this St. Regis Mohawks’ are looking for other sources of revenue given what you've described. But, at the same time, there are those who say that the reason why the law why is structured this way, or these patents are challenged is because it's the only way that Americans and others can get access to generic drugs, which are cheaper than Allergan would sell them for. Do you not see some value to seeing these cheaper, generic-drugs made available?

DW: I know that the general discussion that you're talking about and I know that the majority of the people want to see cheaper drugs. I'm a consumer, I myself and my family would like to buy cheaper drugs. But I think you have to look at this, at least from our business standpoint, as a matter of a company that has developed and spent millions of dollars in their Restasis product. And that they have a patent for it that has a certain length of time that protects it. And the idea of having patents, especially for products that are beneficial and that involved development and research, a company ought to have the benefit of the patent.

CO: There's been a number of criticisms, including an op-ed in Bloomberg, who called this deal a sleazy legal scheme. How would you respond?

DW: It's maybe not common, but often, parties own patents have not developed it. They’re parties who acquire patents. So it seems a little strange to me now that an Indian tribe is acquiring patents, and you already have the precedent for use of sovereign immunity that in those cases nobody was running around with their hair on fire. Nobody was raising objections. So now you have Indian tribes that are doing that — one Indian tribe for five patents — and then the blogosphere explodes, you have editorials, you have articles saying that this is a sham. This is something that shouldn't be allowed to happen. That seems to be an overreaction in large measure because of the party that's doing that.

CO: We will leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you, Mr. White. Thank you.

DW: OK. Thanks. OK.

CO: Bye bye.

JD: Dale White is the General Counsel for the St. Regis Mohawk tribe. We reached him in Akwesasne, New York.

[Music: Percussive]

ABBA reunion

JD: Back in 1979, ABBA decided to record a Spanish version of the song “Chiquita”, in an attempt to make it a hit in South America. The problem was that neither of the singers, Agnetha and Frida of course, could speak Spanish. And so the guy who did the translation for them wrote the words out phonetically. And after some coaching, they had the version you just heard… or are hearing, which was pretty convincing. Speaking of which, ABBA is reuniting for a tour. But before you start picking out a white pant suit to wear to the show, you should know that even if everything works out absolutely perfectly, it too will just be a convincing simulation. The last public performance ABBA gave was on December 11^th, 1982. Ever since, they have refused to reunite, even turning down an offer of a billion dollars to do another tour back in the year 2000. Agnetha told the New York Times in 2013, quote, “I think we have to accept that it will not happen because we are too old and each one of us has their own life.” But you know who doesn't have their own lives? Holograms… holograms of Agnetha, Benny, Bjorn and Anna=Frid, better known as Frida. They aren't too old. They aren't even human, which is why those tireless digital simulations of ABBA are going out on tour in 2019, provided the technology is good enough. As Benny Andersson told the Swedish newspaper Expressen, quote, “It will take a bit of time. It takes time to digitalize a face.” Unquote. Well sure… to say nothing of the flowing hair and the pantsuits. A live band will play behind the phantom ABBA. So what you get is an evening of songs by a band whose track record they can't be touched, performed by at least four people who also cannot be touched. Although to be really devoted ABBA fans I guess their immateriality will be immaterial.

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September 12, 2017 episode transcript

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