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The AIH Transcript for August 18, 2017

Hosts: Mike Finnerty and Robert Doane

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MIKE FINNERTY: Hello I’m Mike Finnerty.

ROBERT DOANE: Good evening I'm Robert Doane. This is As It Happens.

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RD: Tonight.

MF: Loose Bannon. The firing of Steve Bannon means the departure of a man who served as president Trump's right hand man and supplied the president's vision. But our guest warns he'll still have the president's ear.

RD: Look back at anger. The Minister of Foreign Affairs for Catalonia tells us what he's learned about the two deadly attacks that took place in his region yesterday, and how Barcelona and Cambrils are recovering.

MF: The consequences of conscience. He sounded the alarm in Yemen over everything from bombing to famine, and now Hisham Al-Omeisy has been abducted and detained without charge.

RD: Standing up for the kid who took him down. A South Dakota student gets probation for shooting his high school principal instead of a 25 year sentence thanks to the advocacy of the principal himself.

MF: Diversity averse. When we spoke with a fired Google engineer about the memo that cost him his job, James Damore did not demur. And when you responded you were not demure about being demoralized.

RD: And blue loon he sighed swimming alone. And when an Alberta man is approached by the bird he realized it didn't want to tangle with him. It needed to be untangled from the fishing line hook to its neck. As It Happens the Friday edition. Radio that understands when a bird wants help, and when it wants to be left a-loon.

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Bannon: Kuttner, Hisham Al-Omeisy detention, loon whisperer (Part 1)

Bannon: Kuttner

Guest: Bob Kuttner

RD: The far-right guy exits stage left. One of the most controversial figures in the current White House has been fired. Chief Strategist Steve Bannon was the member of President Trump's inner circle who was seen as most sympathetic to the cause of far-right nationalism. He was initially plucked from the website Breitbart to help Mr. Trump's campaign, but has recently clashed with other high profile members of the White House and with the President himself. Mr. Bannon is the eigth senior White House official to go since Mr. Trump took office. Bob Kuttner is the editor of U.S. magazine The American Prospect. Earlier this week he got an unsolicited phone call from Mr. Bannon which may have contributed to him being fired. We reached Mr. Kuttner in Lenox, Massachusetts.

MF: Bob hello.

Bob Kuttner: Hello. Nice to be with you.

MF: How did you react to the news today that Steve Bannon had been pushed out?

BK: I was stunned but not surprised because it looked like he was slowly doing himself in. He was isolating himself from the administration. He was annoying General Kelly, the chief of staff. He was annoying the president. And I think it reached a point where if Kelly was really going to function as Chief Of Staff he couldn't tolerate this any longer.

MF: Well it's pretty clear he didn't like him.

BK: Well he was he was brought in to prevent all of this freelancing and Bannon was the ultimate freelancer. You know they've been obsessed about leaks and Bannon is famous for picking up the phone and calling reporters. And the one thing that he neglected to do when he called me was to say, “hey this is on background.”

MF: Do you think he went of his own volition, because he's putting it about that he had submitted a letter of resignation, or was he fired?

BK: He was fired. There's no doubt whatsoever. You know, the choreography is when you are told, “Here's your gold watch you're gone,” you are permitted to submit a letter of resignation. But there's no doubt whatever that he was fired. And that totally bizarre thing about this, is that in his call with me, he invited me to come to a strategy meeting at the White House in September. So how could he do that if he'd already submitted a letter of resignation?

MF: And this was on Tuesday, and the phone call, was it out of the blue?

BK: It was out of the blue in the sense that I was startled to get it, but I had written a column on Monday making the point that America's trade policy, vis-à-vis China, has been so feeble that we left ourselves wide open for this situation with Korea, where we need China to help us restrain the Koreans. And so we can't push back at all on trade. And so you know, he called me to talk shop on China and I think assumed that he could enlist me as a kind of a chum. He has this fantasy that you can build a grand coalition of the left and the right to support a harder line on China policy.

MF: And of course the topic of the week, this week, has been the protest in Charlottesville that got completely out of hand.

BK: And I think it was wildly naive of Bannon, who you would not ordinarily think of as a naive person, to believe that somehow because we had similar views on China that I would ignore the racist role he’s played, which is so much more toxic.

MF: Well and he's often pointed to as one of the sources in the White House for a certain sympathy for those sorts of people— the white supremacists, the white nationalists.

BK: It's more than sympathy. Look, he was the architect of the policy of taking the fringe elements and turning them into shock troops for Donald Trump.

MF: But that's not what he said to you on the phone, or wasn't that the tone— that sort of tone didn't come out in your in his remarks to you about those protesters on the phone?

BK: Well no. He said what you would say to a liberal if you were trying to persuade a liberal that you are not such a bad guy. So he's saying you know, “these are fringe people and they're clowns.” But then a minute later he talked about how, if the Democrats talked about race that plays in or hands, because we can use a combination of economic nationalism, and playing to the base, to really wipe out the Democrats. So he was on both sides of that issue

MF: But he called them clowns to you?

BK: Yeah, but this is this is Steve Bannon he's a famous bull-------. I mean the base knows that he doesn't believe that because he's their guy.

MF: So what was he, why did he say it? And did he realize it was going to be published?

BK: Well he claims— this is another way in which he's a bull artist. His first claim, I guess it was Thursday morning, was that he hadn't realized we were on the record. By Thursday night he's giving an interview to The Daily Mail, the British newspaper, in which he's saying that actually this was deliberate and it was his effort to divert attention from Charlottesville. So he can keep his story straight from day to day. And you know, it's like somebody who is trying to get a girl to go to bed with him and will say whatever he needs to say.

MF: What role do you think that phone call, made to you, that then got published and widely circulated and talked about, what role do you think it played in the decision to fire him?

BK: I think it was the last straw. I think he was on very thin ice to begin with. And this gave his enemies in the White House, and it may have given Trump the added ammunition they need. And you know, on the one hand he and Trump are two of a kind when it comes to white nationalism. On the other hand the one thing Trump cannot stand is somebody who works for him upstaging him. And that happened with Scaramucci, and that's increasingly happened with Ben.

MF: But one of the things he was saying to you, in your account of the phone call, was that he was in the midst of a process, for instance at State, of getting his people harder line people on trade getting those people into positions at state. It sounded like he was in the midst of you know, performing some pretty tricky things in the final days of his time at the White House.

BK: Yeah. And that's also grandiosity. I mean, you could do a psychiatric diagnosis of the personality type. So here's a guy who was on very thin ice, and he can't resist bragging to somebody who is completely on the opposite side of the political spectrum about all the influence he has inside. Even going so far as naming the Assistant Secretary of State in charge of East Asia policy— he's going to get rid of her and he's going to isolate this one and that one. And it gives you some insight into the personality type. I mean why, even in a call that was on background, and this was not on background, with somebody who he’d never talked to before, but was the editor of a well-known liberal magazine The American Prospect, to brag about how I'm going to do this one in and I'm going to do that when in. I mean, it really makes you wonder if he's running on all cylinders.

MF: What do you think the consequences of this are?

BK: We haven't seen the last of Steve Bannon. I mean, first of all he's going to go back to doing something with media, whether he goes back to Breitbart or something else. And the other thing that's really important to keep in mind, he and Donald Trump are not going to stop talking to each other. Trump is famous for having all of these back channel conversations in the middle of the night. And I'm sure Trump explained to Bannon, “Hey Steve you're more valuable to me outside than inside— you're less of a lightning rod, we can keep talking.” And given that Bannon is the architect of getting Trump into bed with the white nationalists, and even neo-Nazis, if Trump is going to stick to this course, and he seems to be doubling down on it at least for the moment, he needs Bannon more than ever. Now he's he's got this rally in Phoenix, the mayor of Phoenix has asked him not to come. The reports are that he's going to pardon the sheriff there, who has been convicted of violating the rights of immigrants. That sort of strategy bears all of the fingerprints of Steve Bannon, whether Bannon literally was the architect or not, but that's the kind of stuff Bannon does. And so I would be astonished if they didn't continue to have conversations. It's probably easier for Trump to have the strategy conversations with Bannon if he's out of the limelight and he's not on the White House staff.

MF: I mean, I understand what you're saying but doesn't his departure change, in a pretty significant fashion, the current White House?

BK: Well, it changes the White House staff. The question is, does it change Donald Trump? Because ultimately there's only one guy who matters at the White House, and that's President Trump.

MF: Bob Kuttner. thanks very much for your time.

BK: Thanks so much.

MF: Bye Bye

BK: Bye.

RD: Bob Kuttner is the editor of the U.S. magazine The American Prospect. Earlier this week he got an unsolicited phone call from Steve Bannon. Today Mr. Bannon was fired from his position as Chief Strategist for U.S. President Donald Trump. We reached Bob Kuttner in Lenox, Massachusetts.

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Hisham Al-Omeisy detention

Guests: Iona Craig & Hisham Al-Omeisy

RD: It's been called the forgotten war, but Hisham Al-Omeisy tried to remind the international community about the brutal violence ravaging Yemen. He described the Saudi-backed bombings in the country's capital Sana’a, and he was critical of the Houthi rebels as well. He came on our program a number of times to talk about the effects of the war on civilians. Now Hisham Al-Omeisy has been abducted and the conditions of his detention remain a mystery. Iona Craig is a journalist and a friend of Hisham Al-Omeisy, we reached her in Cheltenham, England.

MF: Iona Craig, hello.

IONA CRAIG: Hi Mike.

MF: When did you first hear about Hisham’s disappearance?

IC: I heard about it on the day actually, on August 14th that he'd been taken, essentially off the street when he was driving through parts of Sana’a near his home.

MF: Taken off the street. What do you know about what happened exactly?

IC: Well, as I understand it he was driving through the district of Hajjah, which is where he lived, and he was pulled over by three vehicles filled with armed men. It wasn't clear at that stage who they were, but he was taken away by those men, along with his driver and it later transpired— his family was informed that he was arrested essentially by the National Security Bureau, which is one of Yemen's intelligence agencies.

MF: So what do we know about who has him and where he is?

IC: Well, the National Security Bureau, or the NSB as it's known, is controlled jointly by the Houthis, who are in control of the capital Sana’a, along with elements and those loyal to the former President Ali Abdullah Saleh. They have a facility that includes a prison, in the capital Sana’a. It's not a hundred per cent clear that he's being held in that facility, but we do know he's being held by NSB, so I think it can be assumed that he's in that facility. The NSB have a reputation for not treating prisoners well, they’re known for beating and torturing prisoners. So that's the serious concern at the moment— is Hisham’s welfare.

MF: Is there any indication, based on past experience, how long they tend to hold people that they may be mistreating, or intimidating, or for whatever reason they're holding them?

IC: No, it tends to be indefinite really. Certainly, since the civil war has begun, often particularly with somebody who has a high profile and well known like Hisham— that attention can become very politicized, and they’re use this as a kind of bargaining chip really in negotiations. So yes the concern is that he may be held for a long time— for many months before he is released.

MF: His last tweet from August 12 says, “Armed goons backed by corrupt officials are forcefully taking real estate properties in Sana'a. They just showed up at my door. Now is that a reference to the same people?

IC: We don't know that, but you know, that's a classic tweet from Hisham— that would be considered quite a dangerous thing to make a statement about in Yemen at the moment if that happened to you. It's not clear, but it could be that those two events are connected.

MF: What other motivations might there be behind it?

IC: Well, I mean I know Hisham told me himself he had been interrogated by the Houthi-Saleh forces before, and that's because he's very outspoken and the Houthis—there’s a general sense of paranoia in Sana’a anyway. Anybody who speaks out, particularly to the international media as Hisham has done, and is an English speaker, there’s a lot suspicion. People are very quick to accuse people of being spies. Most activists, and even independent journalists, left any of the territory that was controlled by the Houthis, because they were being persecuted. So Hisham has been treading a very fine line over the last two years and he's been well aware of that. And there was always a lot of concern that this would happen to him. I mean, I used to check in with him on a regular basis, when I hadn't seen him been posting on social media for a few days, just to make sure that he was OK, and he would do the same to me because anybody that's trying to work in Yemen or operate in Yemen and is outspoken these days is at risk. But of course, Hisham was facing that risk every day and was being incredibly brave doing what he was doing because he's been critical of the Houthi-Saleh forces, as well as being critical of the Saudi led coalition, and that was always going to be a risk for him.

MF: What's the significance of losing his voice for however long, at this point?

IC: Well Hisham was one of very few people who’d stuck around in Sana’a to speak out and to continue giving a voice to all Yemenis really, on all sides of the conflict. And he was very good providing analysis, as well as just giving a very human side and portrayal of the war. You know, he regularly posted pictures on social media of what life was like for him and his family, and the struggles they face during the time of conflict. He was providing a window— a very rare window into that life on a daily basis for the English speaking world.

MF: Initially when he was detained there was relative silence amongst his friends and associates, publicly at least, you were no doubt talking amongst yourselves. But can you talk to us about the decisions that were made about going public with the abduction?

IC: Yes initially you know, his family requested that, certainly his friends and journalists that they could reach. But we didn't speak about Hisham’s detention. You know, they really hoped that within the first 72 hours they could negotiate and secure his release. But I think they realized after just a few days that that wasn't going to be imminent, and that therefore perhaps speaking publicly could help him, and certainly they weren't making any progress. But yes, they reviewed their decisions in the last 24 hours and now said that they're quite happy for people to speak out about it.

MF: How's his family holding up?

IC: You know, of course it's really tough for them. I actually haven't spoken to them directly. There's been a sort of group of us that have been speaking privately, which has included his family. But obviously it's extremely stressful for them. You know, he's got two young children. There is also the possibility of a threat to them, now that this has gone public. And so yes, they're still in Sana’a. They're still there in the Houthi controlled territory. So the concern is for him and his family that have got to go through this and they will also be extremely worried about how he's being treated while still in detention.

MF: And you, because you two are friends as well.

IC: I'm really worried. I've had friends and colleagues who have all been held in the National Security Bureau, and when they've come out, I can only describe what they've been through as life changing. It has been very traumatic experiences for all of them. And they have been treated extremely badly while being held by the National Security Bureau. And that's why for me I really have to say that it is incredibly important that he is released immediately and unharmed.

MF: Iona Craig thanks for speaking to us.

IC: Thank you very much.

MF: Bye bye.

RD: Iona Craig is a journalist and a friend of Hisham Al-Omeisy . We reached her in Cheltenham, England. Mr. Al-Omeisy is currently being detained without charge in his home country Yemen. He's been a vocal activist since the civil war broke out there. The last time we spoke with Mr. Al-Omeisy was in April of this year about the famine that have been declared in Yemen. Here's part of that interview from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

HISHAM AL-OMEISY: It's really bad. The U.N. said a few weeks ago that a child dies every 10 minutes in Yemen. And reading it or hearing about it— it's very different when you're living through it and you see it with your own eyes. When children are dying right and left, it’s devastating especially when you have kids and you know that there's going to be a time soon coming enough, when you too will run out of food run out of money, and your kids will be put in that situation. To be honest with you, it's quite shocking that the world is just watching this silently.

CAROL OFF: You talk about these bombs that are dropping and the size of them the ordinances that are landing on populated areas of the country and Sana’a, and you have your children there. How do you talk to them about what's going on?

HA: Luckily I have a basement. A lot of the homes in Yemen don't. Whenever bombs happen I rush them to the basement. I open some music, I give them my cell phone and open some Disney videos on them— trying to keep them distracted and busy. To be honest with you, I have to lie a lot. They see some blood and I know the people are dead, and I have to tell them, “No, no, no, it's just an injury. Don't worry he's going to be OK.” They see a bomb happening and I tell them, “It's never going to land on our home,” so that's how we shelter them. But we know that the day will come when one of their friends or them, themselves will be faced with the reality that the bomb lands here or very close by, or killing a family member, and we would have to explain to them what's happening.

CAROL OFF: I hope that day doesn't come for you, and I appreciate speaking with you again, and I and I know we will again. So thank you and good night to you.

HA: Good night you.

RD: From our archives that Hisham Al-Omeisy in April of this year. Mr. Al-Omeisy has been held without charge since August 14th. To read more about his detention go to our website www.cbc.ca/aih

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Loon whisperer

GUEST: Don Gibson

RD: Tonight they're calling Don Gibson the “Loon Whisperer.” On Saturday the Sundre, Alberta man was camping with his family at a spot called Fish Lake. From the dock, Mr. Gibson, his wife and son, spotted a loon. The prehistoric birds are nothing if not reclusive, so for a lot of us, just a sighting can make a trip. But this particular sighting troubled Mr. Gibson because the loon didn't duck away like they usually do— it made straight for Don Gibson and his family. We reached Mr. Gibson in Sundre, Alberta.

MF: Don Gibson, hello.

DON GIBSON: Hello. How are you doing Mike?

MF: I'm well, thanks very much. Tell us this story. What did you think at first when you saw a loon headed toward you?

DG: My wife thought it was a duck. I actually recognized it as being a loon, but I really honestly thought it was someone playing a joke and I had a remote control toy, and they're standing in the woods laughing at us or something— because you never ever see these things come directly toward you. And this guy was staring straight at us coming right towards us. No question he knew what he was doing.

MF: What did you do?

DG: Well we stood there on the dock, my wife snapped a few pictures standing on the dock— we didn't know how far this whole story was going to go, and how it was going to play out. Now it's a little ways down from the dock to the water, so he didn't bother to stop or come near us at that point, any nearer than he was, but I was able to get close enough to recognize that he was pretty tangled up in fishing line. And this was a plea for help in my eyes. There was no question right away. He brought himself that close for us to identify that there's a situation here for him— and then he kept swimming past. And when he was swimming he was struggling because the lne was around his beak and all the way down his back to his foot. He went right over to a shallower area that we were fishing from earlier on that weekend. And I said to my boy, I said, “We've got to go over there. Let's just see what's going to happen here.” And we walked over— I got closer and closer, very gently, I didn't want to spook him off, otherwise there’d be no chance of ever helping him. And he basically let me pat his head, at first. I'm like, “This is crazy.” I mean he's hurting bad enough that he's just not afraid of me— he wants to be helped. So I’m patting his head, and then by that time I've developed almost a little relationship with him, at the time that he trusted me I guess, and my wife she got a camp attendant, Jeff his name was, and he came over with a pair of scissors. So both of us got to work on this loon Jeff stayed on the shore— I was standing in the water behind the loon just to keep clear of this guy's beak because they’re pretty darn sharp.

MF: Yeah I was going to ask you, Don. What was it like to be, not just that close to the loon, but actually to be holding a loon and touching its head?

DG: Yeah, it was almost unreal, and almost scary to the point where I knew if he decided to jerk around he could puncture a hole in my hand or arm really easy with his beak, they’re made for almost spearing fish I think. You know, you just kind of figured, “OK well this is something I got to do. If he does poke at you I'll deal with it then,” but there was no sign of that whatsoever. He let out a few cute little noises that you kind of knew then that hey he's here for keeps until I'm done.

MF: Would you say he was in distress?

DG: I don't think there was any pain involved because there was no blood, there was no cutting from the line or hook anywhere. I think he was just plumb pooped. I think he hadn't eaten in a while. I think at night he would be on alert because there’s no way he could fly or swim away from predators, so I don't think he got any sleep.

MF: One of the hooks was in embedded in his neck?

DG: Yeah, it was in the back of his neck, and I didn't find that until— the first thing I did was cut off the line around his beak, because I thought you know, the rest, if he decided to kick and stir and I lose him, at least it's off his beak and he can eat. You know, even if it was just swimming on the surface and poking down for you know, minnows or whatever. So I thought I'll get that off first and then I followed the line around, and sure enough there was a hook embedded in the back of his neck. It wasn't real deep— they got thick feathers on them— that came out fairly easy, even though there's a barb on the hook. And then it ran under his wings, and feathers on his back, down to his leg where it must have been tied around three or four loops around his leg. That was really causing him problems because when he was swimming originally, every time he would slap his leg, it would pull his head sideways because it was all linked together— it was that tight. It's like pulling a string on a puppet type thing.

MF: You said he made a noise when he was I guess, in your hands?

DG: Yeah, well you know the loon call they make— it was like a very dull, very quiet almost like a coo. It was it was kind of weird, and I don't know maybe because I was tugging on the string too hard. It didn't sound painful, it wasn't a screech, it was just this little, just this little coo that he made. And it was the cutest little thing. He did it twice, like a coo off of it like, “ooo” that kind of thing, and very quiet, like if you were to stand fifteen to twenty feet back, you probably wouldn't have heard it, but it was enough that Jeff and I could hear it.

MF: That moment when you released him back into the water. Well what was going through your mind, in terms of your hopes and I guess, concerns?

DG: My main thing was I hope we got to him in time— basically he found us. He's the hero in all this really because he had the smarts to come and find human beings that he thought was probably his last resort. So we released him and like, by now the crowd had gathered around, you know. You know, they're all like, “We can't believe it,” and all they're saying stuff. And then when we released him Jeff. the guy that was helping me the most, he basically said, “Come on give us a sign that you're going to be OK,” type of thing, and almost like no lie whatsoever, this bird turned around at about fifteen feet from the shore and looked right back at us. Got up, reared up, like loons do and flapped his wings, and everybody just started clapping, and they just — was just unbelievable— almost choreographed.

MF: It sounds like a magic moment.

DG: It was, it was, it was incredible. With all the crap going on in the world today it just made everything just disappear —it was amazing. You know, I'm not a religious man by any means or anything like that, but I'll tell you there's something going on in those birds. And that day it is beyond belief. It really is I don't think I would ever expect to hear a story like this if I didn't see it myself.

MF: And what did your son think about all this?

DG: He was blown away and so touched. And afterwards it was all about that night at the campfire. “How do you think he’s doing? Do you want to go down to the lake and see if he’s there?” And he just he wouldn’t stop. It was quite an experience for him for sure. I don't think you'll ever, ever forget it.

MF: Don thanks very much for telling us this story. Really appreciate it.

DG: That's not a problem, you're welcome.

MF: Bye bye

DG: Bye bye.

RD:Don Gibson is a carpenter in Sundre, Alberta. We reached him outside his workshop.

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Spain attack follow-up, Principal shot, As it Happened: The Archive Edition - Four Weddings and a Funeral

Spain attack follow-up

Guest: Minister Raül Romeva

RD: In Barcelona and Cambrils today shock has turned to mourning. 13 people were killed and more than one hundred injured, when a van drove swerving through a busy tourist area in Barcelona. Then later that night a woman was killed in Cambrils, less than two hours drive from Barcelona, when a car plowed into pedestrians on a boardwalk. The victims were from more than 30 countries. There are reports that at least one Canadian is among the dead or wounded. Raül Romeva is the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the autonomous government of Catalonia where the two attacks took place. We reached him in Barcelona.

MF: Minister, hello.

MINISTER RAUL ROMEVA : Hello.

MF: What have you learned about the people behind these attacks?

RR: Well actually, there is still an inquiry ongoing so we need to be cautious. The thing is that we have some [unintelligible] some people that have been killed in an exchange with police, but we are still required to have more information in order to be more precise. What we can say, is that the response from the police were highly professional from the beginning and actually, from the very first time, very first moment, they were located and followed until they were they were taken. This is, to me, the main conclusion. Now it's time for the police to clarify what exactly— not only the motivation, the motivation is clearly to provide terror— but how is their modus operandi. It seems that they are very young people.

MF: Very young and surprisingly very young. What age are we talking about?

RR: So far that we know is around 17 to 23-years-old— very young, it's very young people.

MF: I want to ask you about well—the attack on Barcelona, Las Rambas of course Cambrils, south down the coast— but there was also what appeared to be a chemical explosion in another town called Alcanar. What's the connection between those three?

RR: It seems to be a connection. And this is exactly one of the aspects, one of the lines of investigations that the police are following. Indeed there is a connection but that's what we are still required to to clarify.

MF: But when you add those three events to the number of people involved it does seem to be quite a well-organized misadventure.

RR: It shows the significant difference compared to the situation we had in Israel, in Manchester, in London, where were more lonely people who acted. It seems indeed that this was an number of groups. We still have to call if I how many members this group was was of. But really that's something that needs to be as well assessed, because indeed it shows a bit of a new specific modus operandi that we were not aware of, or at least in the recent situations we we've seen around. And that's exactly why we need to be more clarification for that.

MF: There seemed to be some parallels specifically with the attack in London at London Bridge, in that there was a van involved. There were a number of suspects wearing fake vests, fake explosive vests and armed with knives.

RR: Well, in terms of our operation, or in terms of action maybe— in terms of real connections we don't know, and that's exactly what we need to clarify. But what is evident, is that the damage would have been much bigger, really bigger really, really much stronger without the action of the police.

MF: Minister there’s a report this morning in one of the papers in Barcelona, called El Periódico, that the CIA a couple of months ago, had tipped off the Catalan autonomous police force that an attack was imminent and that it would it would target Las Ramblas. What do you know about that?

RR: Well basically everybody can understand that any place that has a touristic interest could be a target, which means that obviously, to be clear, I mean there is no need for the CIA report to understand that any place that you have public attention could be a target. This has been said so far there is an investigation going on, so I will not comment on any specific information that has been published and this has not been confirmed by the police at all.

MF: But as you say Las Ramblas is an obvious target, and perhaps a soft target, for someone wanting to inflict a lot of damage. Have you done much thinking about how easy it was for a van to get onto the pedestrianized part of Las Ramblas— and maybe there should have been some sort of bollards or barriers that would protect the pedestrians.

RR: Let me be clear on this, I will not speculate on those hypotheses. The instrument that they used is a van so does happen unfortunately in many other places— remember what happened in Nice with a truck— unfortunately this is a situation that from that point of view was unpredictable. I think that the main message is that this is not going to make the people be scared. And that's what we have to clarify.

MF: Minister people were really struck seeing the images of the demonstration that took place this morning so soon after the attacks Plaça Catalunya and people turning out in peaceful remembrance and protest against the violence. But I understand there are some reports tonight about scuffles going on between members of the far-right and anti-fascists. What can you tell us about that?

RR: Well there are minor incidents. They are very, very, very small groups. So it's actually insignificant. I think they are not representative of the situation. Unfortunately they are a group of radicals that they were very small and they were acting in a very provocative way.

MF: What is your sense then of how Catalans, how people in Catalonia are feeling today after what has been a terrible week?

RR: Well the answer, you had it today in La Ramblas— normality, normality. Let's go back to normality the people is going to stand up. The main response is you are not going to divide us. You're not going to divide to the leading to other style of life that we are having. Barcelona is very well known for hosting different religions, different nationalities, different languages, people from differing opinions and that is how he's going to be.

MF: Raül Romeva thank you very much for speaking to us.

RR: Thank you very much for your attention.

MF: Bye bye.

RD: Raül Romeva is the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the autonomous government of Catalonia. We reached him in Barcelona.

[MUSIC: Ambient Bass]

RD: Twenty-five hundred kilometers away from Barcelona there was another deadly attack today in another busy shopping area. As we go to air we know that at least two people are dead and half-a-dozen more injured following a stabbing attack in Finland. It happened in a market square in the city of Turku. About 150 kilometers west of Helsinki. The attacker was reportedly shot in the leg before being taken into custody. The country's police chief has said his motives are not yet clear. Kent Svenson witnessed the attack in Turku he described what he saw to CNN earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

And we were just on the front row of a cafe and all of a sudden we just heard this woman scream really really, really loudly, and first we thought it was just an internal fight between two people. But then we say this huge knife in his and he was just he was stabbing this person down on the ground and people were just running everywhere. We ran into this café where we hid, and this guy was just constantly stabbing people.

RD: That was Kent Svenson speaking with CNN earlier today after he witnessed an attack in the Finnish city of Turku.

[MUSIC: Ambient Electric Guitars]

Prinicpal shooting

Guest: Principal Kevin Lein

RD: It's been nearly two years since it happened—but Kevin Lien remembers every detail of the moment he was shot. Mr. Lien is a high school principal in Harrisburg, South Dakota and the shooter was one of his students— 16 year old Mason Buhl. Not only did Principal Lein survive, but he was backat school in an arm-sling the next day, and almost immediately he had a new mission— to help the student who shot him in any way he could. This month a judge was supposed to give Mason Buhl a sentence of 25 years, instead he sentenced Mr. Buhl to 15-months-probation and committed him to a mental health rehabilitation program. We reached Principal Kevin Lein in Chicago

MF: Principal Lein, Hello.

PRINCIPAL KEVIN LEIN: Hi how are you doing Mr. Finnerty? Good to hear you.

MF: It's nice to talk to you too. Listen Could you tell us why you wanted to persuade the court to give your former student— the student who wanted to shoot you, and wanted to kill you, it seemed— why you wanted him to have probation instead of jail time?

KL: You know, our lives really I think, become better, and I think we all become better when we demonstrate that capacity for forgiveness. If you give second chances a lot of times it works out the very best for everybody. And I just, I completely support what Judge Zell did. I think it really showed the compassion that we should show to each other.

MF: And what role did your intervention in that case, play in terms of the judge's final decision on what to do with him?

KL: Through the past two years, since the event, I've had a platform to speak to many large groups. You know in every case I’ve tried to start with requesting from the audience to give prayers to Mason, and give thoughts to him, and really try to be positive, so maybe he could have a positive life. So I think that the lead defense attorney, the judge, and even the state's attorney, to some extent, took that into consideration and that, that would be my wishes— that I had no fear for myself or my family, and that I really felt like Mason was deserving of this chance.

MF: Before he shot you, what kind of student was Mason?

KL: Average you know, but the real difficulty had been that he had just moved— his family had broken up. It wasn't a great breakup, and he also had a propensity, we found out later, for clinical depression. So all of those things made it real desperate and he ended up taking this action, which I know he regrets.

MF: September the 30^th, 2015, Principal Lein— how close did Mason come to killing you?

KL: Really close. He was, you know, about a-foot-and-a-half away with the gun. The first time that he attempted, the gun malfunctioned. Had it went that time, I'm not quite certain I’d have been here because I thought it was a toy gun, and I had kind of reached for it thinking Mason was handing it to me, instead he pulled the trigger but it malfunctioned—so he took a step back and he cocked it, and I can still see the bullet going into the chamber, and then he stepped forward again and you know, about two feet away. And I just happened to be able to get my arm up in time and it went through my elbow and then into my chest. But it was through the grace of whoever, it really didn't cause as much of an injury as you would think that close with you know, that kind of weapon. But there he was right there and I don't know why I deserve the angels that protected me, but I'm glad to be here today talking to you Mr. Finnerty.

MF: Where was he aiming?

KL: At my head— he came right at my head. He stepped forward and aimed right at my forehead.

MF: And I think just after you were shot, you even went on the intercom to try to speak to people in the school. What did you say, what happened?

KL: We were in lockdown and I could see my earthly guardian angel Mr. Rollinger, my assistant, had tackled Mason in the front foyer, and I could see that he and the athletic director had him down, and the gun had been kicked away. So it appears that we kind of had things secure and I just wanted the kids to know it's likely they're going to be in lockdown for a while. And then also you know ,we’re a cell phone school—our kids can use cell phones but during the lockdown you can't use them at the beginning. I want them to know they could start to call home and talk to their folks and let them know they were OK, so I mean it wasn't any act other than just I felt like I needed to talk with the kids. It probably did more good for me than I did for them. You feel like the kids are your kids, and you want to protect them, so you know, it was a lot more to do with making certain that they were all OK. And I really didn't think much about the gunshot wound. I'm sure it's adrenaline and you know, whatever human physiology, and then my secretary said, “hey maybe you ought to get in the nurse.” So we were standing and it was up in a little bit on my shoes I guess, so I said OK. So I went to the nurse, and then the nurses wouldn't let me in because it was lockdown.

[LAUGHING]

They were following the protocol, and then I finally convinced them I was, who I was, and they let me in, and then the EMTs arrived shortly after that.

MF: I mean, now that you look back on it, what did lead Mason that day to do what he did?

KL: I think it was a cry for help. I think he did not know how to access any kind of resources or personnel that could help him—or he wasn't willing to do that. And you know, we, on the Friday before, which was our homecoming, he and I had talked it wasn't any kind of altercation or anything, it was just he was trying to leave early from our event, and I told him he couldn't. And I was talking to some other students and I turned around and he had walked out again, so I went out in the hallway and said, “Mason you know, we just talked about this you gotta stay till the end.” I think what he said to me was you know, something like, “I don't think I should have to,” and I could tell he was a little distressed. So I said, “Mason don't worry about it, you know, you can take off now there's only ten minutes, but you know and I need to talk next week sometime.” Those are the last thing I said to him, so I don't think he directed it at me personally. I think it was more maybe of the authority, and maybe you know, shout out for I need some help and he didn't even understand what he was doing. Our country, if you have a broken arm somebody tells you to go to the doctor and says, “get your arm fixed, it's easy, and simple it's rational,” but when somebody is a little broken up with their mental capacity it seems that it's a weakness that we should just be able to overcome on our own and we need to change that, in particular for our kids. The most empowering thing is to genuinely care about the person who is in front of you and the look in their eyes—and if they've got a difficulty to help them through it the very best way you can or to find people who can help and we don't do that very well.

MF: What's your relationship like with Mason now?

KL: You know, we don't really have much of a relationship yet. My intention though is— as soon as he's put in whatever facility he's going to for a while, to get the assistance that he needs— then I'm going to go see him, and I'm going to talk to him about doing something proactively to try to help kids in our region and our state. I think he'll be open to that.

MF: What’s the first thing you want to say to him?

KL: Just you know, that I love him and that I always have had hopes for him. And let's see what we can do together. Let's just move forward.

MF: You know there are a lot of people listening who will think that Mason—to really have wanted to take your life— is something that really needed to be punished. They might not understand your capacity to forgive. Could you explain it?

KL: Punishment doesn't solve the problem. Punishment doesn't change behavior. Again I think it really comes down to us being able to show compassion over, and over, and you know, I'm more of— I am a total New Testament guy, not an Old Testament guy— so I'm gonna turn the other cheek, not an eye-for-an-eye guy and in this case I know it's the highest degree and some people feel like Mason got away with something but it's just not true. And I know— I'm totally confident he's going to go on and do good things with his life.

MF: Well Kevin Lein, we're glad to be able to speak to you today. Thank you very much for taking the time.

KL: Thank you too. It's been wonderful.

MF: Bye Bye

KL: Bye bye.

RD: Kevin Lein the outgoing Principal of Harrisburg High School in South Dakota. We reached him in Chicago.

[MUSIC: Ambient Woodwinds]

Listener response

RD: Former Google engineer James Damore maintains he was fired from the tech giant quote, “For telling the truth,” unquote. Mr. Damore told that truth, as he saw it, in a ten page document he titled, “Google's Ideological Echo Chamber.” In it Mr. Damore suggests that biological differences between men and women account for the gender pay gap, that Google engages in discriminatory racial and gender inclusion hiring practices, and that it promotes an anti-conservative atmosphere. In an interview on As It Happens last night, Mr. Damore doubled down on those assertions, claiming Google's quote, “leftist dogma,” is analogous to communism. You can hear that interview on our website www.cbc.ca/aih

MF: Talkback had a lot to say about my exchange with Mr. Damore. Some like Paul Sauvé of Lévis Quebec question our decision to invite him on the show at all. Mr. Sauvé wrote, “Did you really think that you could have an intelligent interview with Mr. James Damore?” And in a series of tweets Dr. Chris Mackey of Lovett, Ontario wrote, “This is a highly privileged person who has put himself on a pedestal. The irony of him considering himself to be an expert simply based on his unjustifiable confidence needs to be called out. But the concerning part for me is that CBC supported his efforts to pretend to be an expert bigot— not just an amateur. He's not worth CBC.

RD: Heather Maxwell of Botwood, Newfoundland directed her frustration at Google and Mr. De Moore's alma mater, Harvard, writing, “I was outraged when I heard about James Damore being fired for perpetuating gender stereotypes, but not for the reasons you think. Google has now turned this man into a martyr for an increasingly vocal and violent group of people who think that intolerance is a legitimate opinion to be considered. The tech industry relies on science and he does not understand science. If he thinks he is finding conclusive scientific evidence to back up his argument makes me seriously question the quality of scientific education at Harvard.”

MF: Still some sided with Mr. Damore accusing us of being too tough on him. We received both an email and this call from Rudy Windsor.

SOUNDCLIP

My name is Rudy Windsor. I'm from St. John, New Brunswick. I just wanted to say I can't believe what I just heard on CBC Radio with the interview with the former Google engineer there. I'd never heard such bias in journalism on the CBC— or even anywhere. I thought the whole thing just sounded really weird. I thought you were doing some sort of mockumentary thing. Baiting the poor Google guy, blatantly trying to suggest is socially ignorant or something. I really couldn't believe it. I never heard anything like it. I thought it was just one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and just blatantly biased and terrible journalism at best, I guess. Everybody's been trying to do this to this guy, so anyways there's my take on it.

RD: Thanks to everyone who e-mailed, tweeted, and or, called us. We're always glad to get your feedback call out Talkback line at (416)205-5687. Email us at aih@cbc.ca or tweet us @CBCAsItHappens

[MUSIC: Teiko Drums]

RD: And now, a look back at the week in food trends, starting with an article in The New York Times yesterday entitled, “The Blobs in Your Tea? They’re Supposed to Be There.” Well, I'm sure some people already knew that, in the sense that bubble tea is not new and it's enormously popular all over the world. Still, let's dig into this article with that provocative headline. Bubble tea, long a niche favorite, goes mainstream in the U.S. Wait, wasn't the word ‘blobs’ in the headline before? OK, well double-check that. In the meantime let's review the revelations in this article bubble tea purveyors continue to grow along with drink's popularity. Hold it. I know that wasn't the first or second headline. Turns out people weren't happy at all with the original article or the first two headlines or the idea that the New York Times business section had discovered bubble tea and assumed its audience required an explanation of it. Avid readers were just confused because last December the New York Times food section ran an article with the headline,” Bubble Tea, So 2002,” the backlash prompted the paper to run an apology— business editor Ellen Pollock wrote quote, “In retrospect we wish we had approached the topic differently, if at all,” unquote. So three headlines, and a lot of editing later, a very different version of the article is up and a note for anyone else covering this particular beverage, if you're writing about bubbles, make sure you're not writing from inside one.

[MUSIC: Drums and Flutes]

RD: It's time to say goodbye to the Friday August 18th edition of As It Happens. The show is produced this week by Jeanne Armstrong, Imogen Birchard, Katie Geleff, Sheena Goodyear, Sarah Jackson, Jonathan Ore, John McGill, Kevin Robertson, Pedro Sanchez. Our technician this week was Evan Kelly. The show director is Kevin Ball.

MF: Chris Howden is our writer. Chris Harbord was the acting Senior Producer and filling in as Executive Producer of As It Happens was John Perry. Our intern was Emilie Quesnel.

RD: We'd also like to thank some other people who helped us out this week, Keith Hart at Radio Archives, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, Mary-Catherine MacIntosh in Halifax Kristin Nelson in Ottawa, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg, Michael Michael O'Halloran in Calgary and Anne Penman in Vancouver.

MF: As It Happens we'll be back again on Monday. I’m Mike Finnerty. Good night.

RD: I’m Robert Doane. Have a good weekend.

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August 18, 2017 episode Transcript

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