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The Current Transcript for August 15, 2017

Host: Megan Williams

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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Racism is evil and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear, as American.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: President Donald Trump finally condemning, by name, the white supremacist groups whose protests in Virginia this past weekend left dozens injured and one woman dead. And many say these groups, with an ideology of hate, have not come out of nowhere, and that in fact, they maybe growing. We are starting today with a look into the white supremacist mindset, from someone who was himself a true believer but who now works to convince others to give up on hate. That's up first and then, to Libya. The North African country where tens of thousands of migrants arrive seeking a better life, only to discover a land of nightmares.

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I want to go home now and see my family. We are suffering here in Libya, here. You know, we are not living good. You know, people are dying. Our fellow brothers are dying and we need help.

MW: That's in about a half an hour from now. I'm Megan Williams and this is the summer edition of The Current .

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'Ideology on violent far right is just as toxic as ISIS': Former white supremacist speaks out

Guests: Nate Thayer, Tony McAleer

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White European culture has the right to be here just like every other culture. It is not perfect. There are flaws to it, of course. I do not deny that. However,I believe that with the replacement of the statue, it will just be the slow replacement of white heritage in the United States, ohe people who fought and defended and built their state and their homeland.

MW: That is Peter Cvjetanovic. He's a 20 year old student from the University of Nevada. He was one of the faces in the crowd last weekend in Charlottesville, Virginia, standing side by side with Ku Klux Klan members and neo-Nazis, carrying torches and confederate flags. Well, most find their views abhorrent and confounding. My first guest today understands the mindset, intimately. Tony McAleer is a former white supremacist. In the 80s and 90s he was involved in some of the most radical far right groups in the United States and here in Canada, where he grew up. Groups called the Aryan Nations and White Aryan Resistance. But today, he is the board chair of Life after Hate, an organization working to turn white supremacists around. Tony McAleer joins me from our studio in Vancouver. Good morning.

TONY MCALEER: Good morning Megan.

MW: What's your reaction to the events in Charlottesville?

TONY MCALEER: Well, there's a there's a couple. First of all, this isn't about Charlottesville and it's about something much larger than that statue. And this is something that has been brewing for quite some time. The battles between the violent far right white nationalists and the violent elements of the protesters have been going on since UC Berkeley in California, earlier this year. They showed up again in Portland. And you see a lot of the same characters. You know, there to do battle with each other. And now Charlottesville became the focal point this weekend. I'm sad to say it, but I'm not surprised that these clashes have claimed the life and Heather Heyer was murdered.

MW: We just heard a clip from Peter Cvjetanovic. He's one of the young men who's now in that infamous tiki torch photo that was taken the Friday night of the supremacist rally. What did you hear in his words?

TONY MCALEER: Fear. I think you know we, as human beings, we operate from one of two places. We operate from love or we operate from fear and its irrational fear. You know, when the U.S. census came out in 2000 that showed a demographic shift and they were predicting a white minority, within 50 years or 40 years, that actually created a spike in membership and support and in white supremacist groups, based on the narrative where they believe that you know white genocide is impending, and their ability to control their own destiny is disappearing and it's simply not true. But they carry this irrational fear about. And I know from having dissected my own personal history. Deep down inside these are fearful people and they're driven to these groups by a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, and coming from a place where they don't have that within themselves. The fuel driving it all is is toxic shame. It's really less about the ideology of why people join these groups. But they're very angry for reasons, not to do with the ideology, but the ideology gives them a framework with which that they can try and make sense of it and blame others. But it's a very false narrative.

MW: You mentioned toxic shame. What do you mean by that?

TONY MCALEER: Well, if you look at the University of Maryland, they did a research and our own research with the Department of Justice which will be released, later this year. But University of Maryland study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism program looked at violent extremism. They found that the number one correlated factor in the history of somebody joining a violent extremist group is childhood trauma. They were looking at physical and sexual abuse but I think if we look at, go beyond the physical and sexual abuse, and I think most of the damage is done by the emotional abuse that goes along with it, and you can have emotional abuse that doesn't have a physical component, like abandonment and neglect. What that type of experience does to a young person, is it helps create a very unhealthy sense of self at a much deeper level, which John Bradshaw wrote a great book called Healing the Shame that binds you. And he talks about it as toxic shame. I think if you look at the histories of the young men in Brussels in Paris, who were arrested for the ISIS attacks, and make no mistake this ideology on the violent far right is just as toxic as ISIS. You found they were not scholars of the Koran or Islam. They were troubled youth. They were street kids. They were juvenile delinquents. And that I think is the driver searching for that sense of meaning, belonging and purpose in their life.

MW: Can you take me back to when you were a white supremacist. What led you to become one?

TONY MCALEER: Well, I came from, you know people think it's socioeconomic; I came from an upper middle class doctor’s family. My father was a psychiatrist. Maybe that's the problem right there [laughs]. In all seriousness, you know there was stuff going on and in my home, and I went to an all-boys Catholic school. What had happened for me was I walked in on my father when I was 10, with another woman. That sort of shattered my trust in authority and it left me very angry. I went from a sort of bright, sensitive, curious, mischievous to find little bit stubborn, you know, if I described who little Tony was, a straight A student, to next year in grade 6 a C student. The teachers got together with my parents and and they all agreed that they should try and beat the grades into me. And I remember, time after time after time, being in that teacher's office, bent over a desk getting hit on the rear end with a meter stick. Even to this day, I don't think I've ever felt more powerless. And I want to be very clear here. I do not blame what I did on my childhood. You know I share these things to help understand the lens through which I made my decisions. Everything I did, I chose to do. And I have to take full responsibility for that and hold myself accountable for that, and I carry a healthy shame for the things that I've done. So, I don't I don't blame anything on my child. But the analogy that I like to use is ‘have you ever been to the grocery store when you're really hungry?’ And of course most people nod their heads and understand that you know that's where they make the poorest food choices. And as a young man, I went out into the world emotionally hungry, and I made very poor choices. That ideology and the skinhead music scene, and everything like that, gave me permission to act out the violence and the anger that was that was deep inside me.

MW: Yet a lot of people experience rough childhood abuse and trauma of different sorts but they don't go into white supremacist groups. Is there any other element in this that's attracting these young men to the groups?

TONY MCALEER: Well, a sense of power. I mean, my childhood wasn't that bad. I was not the only child that had adultery in the home or the only child that was beaten at school. So, my childhood, I'm not saying that I had a bad childhood. But these things can play out in a number of ways. The challenge with the research of the University of Maryland is it's a lousy predictor. It doesn't help us predict who is going to go down the path of violent extremism or addiction or gangs or whatever. But what we know with Life After Hate is when we're helping people leave, and we help them transition back to their humanity. Because what I believe is that the level to which we are willing to dehumanize another human being, for any reason, is a reflection of how disconnected from our own humanity that we are. And for the work that we do helping people we don't try and change their ideology. Because of the challenge with that is the ideology and identity become intertwined. And if you attack the ideology, you also attack the identity at the same time of the person, and their ego defenses come up and they shut down and you can't get through. But what we work on is trying to reconnect them to their humanity. Because when they can connect to their own humanity they can start to recognize it in others, and that's when the ideology starts to shift. So we look at it really as healing the person. And while those issues from childhood and adolescence, which are lousy predictors, they are certainties when we go to help and heal people and bring them back from that real dark place of disconnection.

MW: Hmm. So do you see Charlottesville as a wakeup call? I mean, what needs to be done, going forward, to address this issue?

TONY MCALEER: Absolutely it is. It is a wakeup call. And like I said at the beginning, this isn't about Charlottesville or that statue. Charlottesville was chosen by people outside of Charlottesville. This has the potential to happen in any American city. I think we often see ourselves very different from the United States, here in Canada. We only have to look at the history of Toronto in the 90s and the pitch battles between anti-racist action and the Heritage Front. It can happen here, too. I think just because this happened on the other side of the border, I don't think we can be complacent and think it doesn't exist in Canada. There was a recent report came out that shows very clearly that these groups are very active in Canada. What can we do about it? I think these groups thrive on confrontation and media attention. And I believe, and to paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King, you cannot defeat darkness with darkness, only light can defeat darkness, and you can't defeat hatred with hatred, only love can defeat hatred. I think we have as much as people may want to punch a Nazi in the face, violence is not the answer here. They thrive on confrontation. I know when I was active and we had confrontations in the street in a similar fashion we thrived on it. And any attention we could get, we thrived on. We are feeding the beast if we violently confront them.

MW: All right thanks very much for sharing your story with us today.

TONY MCALEER: Thank you.

MW: Tony McAleer is a former white supremacist who today is the board chair of Life after Hate. That's an organization working to turn white supremacists around. He joined me from our studio in Vancouver. For some more context about the white nationalist rally that took place in Charlottesville, I'm joined by Nate Thayer, he's an investigative journalist who has focused on white supremacist groups in the United States. Nate Thayer is in Alachua County Florida. Good morning.

NATE THAYER: Good morning.

MW: What did you think about what we just heard from Tony McAleer?

MW: I thought he was spot on and people up to listen to people like Tony, that this is a large and growing movement that is quite complex. But what happened in Charlottesville should come as no surprise to anyone. I've known about Charlottesville for a couple of months now. There's no question that there were actually hundreds of the demonstrators there, from both sides, were armed. In some ways we should be grateful that there weren't more killed. It's unclear to me why the law enforcement did not keep the two sides separate. That's a perhaps similar issue but this kind of thing is not a surprise and it will happen again. The tensions now with the white nationalist community are very high, much higher than they were prior to Saturday.

MW: I want to ask you about that community. First of all, how much do we know about James Alex Fields, the man who drove his car into the crowd?

NATE THAYER: We know pretty much everything we need to know about him. He, in many ways, is a representative face of the movement. He was not particularly hopped into the organized white nationalist movement. He was a sympathizer. It's people exactly like James fields which are extremely difficult to keep track of, because they're not integrally involved in organized movements. But they're the type of people who are angry and they show up at rallies like this, and do stupid things like he did. It is very difficult to predict.

MW: Now you're following the groups online, I understand. You've talked to at least a few of your contacts in the white supremacist movement, since Saturday. What are they saying for instance about the killing of Heather Heyer?

NATE THAYER: Well, it really depends on who you talk to immediately after that woman was killed. The theme that spread very quickly to the White Nationalist community was that she was actually killed by the anti fa or the anti-fascists, which are the counter protesters to the white nationalist. That clearly was not true. His license plate number was clearly visible. It took me a matter of about 15 minutes to figure out who owned that car.

MW: What? They're saying that somebody else drove the car? I mean there's a video showing that that was his car and he drove it. So they're denying that?

NATE THAYER: They certainly did at first, and then it is now morphed into that he was attacked in that car by anti-fascists. Essentially the blame is on continues to be on the other side, that they were they were provoked. Some of the sentiments are considerably more hateful. I have heard more than one white nationalist who is at Centerville who is celebrating the death of that 32 year old woman. That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone either. It's a real tinderbox. The fuses are very short. I received messages this morning that there's been a call to arms, whatever that means, among organized white nationalists. They feel up against the wall. And I think the other side feels empowered, as well. It's a very tense situation right now.

MW: Now, yesterday we had a guest who said white supremacists and white nationalists and the alt right are one and the same thing. And I know that you have called the alt right the prettier face of white nationalism. Why is that?

NATE THAYER: Well, if you look at who cooked the [unintelligible] out for the center the Charlottesville demonstration, it was actually taken out by a fellow by the name of Richard Spencer. He's a suit and tie educated, rather articulate Trump supporter, has been for some time. The permit was taken out ,not for white nationalism issues, but to defend Confederate monuments one that's been designated to be taken down in Charlottesville. These are hot button issues and legitimate issues among a wide swath of white working class, in rural poor in America, that are not terrorists by any means. I have no sympathy for people who run over people with cars, but these kind of demonstrations track the base of support that came from all over the country. Tony was exactly correct. This had nothing to do with Charlottesville. The same thing happened in Sacramento and Berkeley, California in recent months, in Portland, Oregon. And it will happen elsewhere. They're the same people. It's important to recognize that there's really not necessarily any clear good guys or bad guys. Well, there's clear bad guys but there are there is an element of the white nationalist community, and an element of antifascist community, who will go anywhere in the country for the express purpose of starting a violent confrontation. There were hundreds of people at that demonstration who were carrying weapons, legally carrying weapons, on both sides. And it should come as a surprise to nobody that if you let these two sides get anywhere near each other…

MW: It's going to lead to violence, right. Okay. I'm going to have to leave it there with you. Thanks very much.

NATE THAYER: All right.

MW: Nate Thayer is an investigative journalist. He is in Alachua County, Florida. The CBC News is next. Then, imagine fleeing war and poverty in your home country only to find yourself stuck in a place that feels like hell on earth. The daily reality of African migrants stuck in Libya is horrendous. We'll hear from one my friend who made it out, after the news. I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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Oxfam report reveals migrants in Libya suffer harrowing abuse and exploitation

Guests: Anonymous Gambian Migrant, Elisa Bacciotti, Leonard Doyle

MW: Hello I'm Megan Williams and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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MW: So close to Europe, yet so very far away. Over the past few years, tens of thousands of people have made the perilous Mediterranean crossing, from the shores of North Africa towards Italy, in hopes of starting a new life there. We're familiar now with the sight of their crowded dangerous vessels and the tragedies they too often meet at sea. But what you may not know is that before they begin that watery crossing they've already traversed a land they call hell on earth, Libya. Migrants from elsewhere in Africa say that, once in Libya, they are subject to kidnapping and torture, rape and forced slave labor. Oxfam International is the latest humanitarian organization to draw attention to the suffering of migrants in Libya. In a report released last week it cataloged the abuse they face. Oxfam interviewed 258 migrants chronicling their experiences in the North African country. They spoke about what they personally had endured as well as what they'd witnessed including the killing of their fellow travelers. The man we're about to hear from is a 23 year old Gambian who made it to Sicily last year. He was among those who provided Oxfam with testimony about his experiences in Libya. We're withholding his name to protect him and his family from repercussions for speaking out. We reached him at a migrant center in Bergamo in northern Italy. Hello.

ANONYMOUS: Hello.

MW: Now you left Gambia when you were quite young 20 years old. Can you tell me why me?

ANONYMOUS: Because you know I am afraid I don't know what is going to happen because the things in Gambia was not easy. It was really ugly.

MW: What were you afraid of?

ANONYMOUS: Because the power of the government is unstoppable. So, anything government can do it. So, for me I'm very afraid that's why I leave the country to leave to go to Senegal. I don't know what's going to be happening but I think that much could be happen any time.

MW: Can you tell me about living conditions in Gambia?

ANONYMOUS: For a living condition, I am a very poor person. My family is a very poor family. So,[Unintelligible] family is difficult. So, I see, if I reduce myself from the family, so I can help myself under any place and go look for help, that will be easy on the family, you know.

MW: Right. Now, why did you decide to go to Libya specifically?

ANONYMOUS: It was a hope that make me to go to Libya because many people tell me that Libya, if you go there you work, you have money, you understand?

MW: Hmm.

ANONYMOUS: So that's why I go to Libya. I got to Libya for [unintelligible] to have money.

MW: Right.

ANONYMOUS: To plan my future.

MW: To earn a living, and what happened to you when you arrived there?

MW: I arrived in Libya. I tried to go to, I know refugee in Libya they call it [unintelligible]. A lot of people checked me to take me to Tripoli. I go to Tripoli. I am in Tripoli for two weeks, just to do things to help myself, no but it cannot be. So we was there, you know. We, many people in the place, like it is just like a camp. We are many people. There you know that they told us that this place when you are, when you come, everybody, anybody won’t walk. They come and collect you. They will take you to the work. In a two weeks’ time, I was there but I'm not working, for that two weeks. So, they come to arrest everybody to kick everybody out of that compound. They take us to the prison.

MW: Now, what were the conditions like? Can you tell me what it was like when they took you and put you in detention in this prison where you were held?

ANONYMOUS: You can be [unintelligible] for days. They hurt you people. They would the hurt you people like animals. [Beep]. You will be hungry there are no food. For that two weeks they come and attack the place we are again, asking us money. We said we don't have no money. Over 300 and something more or less people. They cut that place. They put us in a big truck. They take us a place which they say that that place they return us back to our home.

MW: Hmm.

ANONYMOUS: You understand me? So we are there for two days. They make us to be sit on each other, eat on each other. So many people died there. So many people have injured there in presence of me. I see it. They take us a place, again, where they call that place [unintelligible]. They tell us that that place is a refugee camp. We was there for one week. After, they come to tell us that if you want to go out you will pay two thousand Libyan Dinar, to go away form this place. For me, I cannot go, because me, I do not have nobody home. Who is going to send money for me to go out from that detention?

MW: I mean that's a lot of money. That's about 2000 thousand Canadian dollars. Was there any way that your family could have paid that?

ANONYMOUS: I sleep for almost one year because of the money that actually I cannot pay. My family cannot pay that money.

MW: What did they do to you when you couldn't pay this large sum of money?

ANONYMOUS: Every day every day they beat us. So if you are not eating good food, you are not drinking good water, how are you going to be survive?

MW: So how did you manage to get out of there, and onto a boat to Sicily?

ANONYMOUS: See, I am very lucky person because that year in Ramadan, the [unintelligible] called Asma, they call themselves Asma Boy. They [unintelligible] those people because they come to attack the prison to [unintelligible] to help all the black people, Africans inside the prison. They tell them to go out. You go and find the way to get away from the country.

MW: Now you managed to escape Libya. You got on one of the crowded boats that was rescued at sea. But can you tell me now what life is like for you in Italy? I mean what was the journey worth it?

ANONYMOUS: Now, you know… Now, you know, I can go down in Europe. You know, everything is okay. I am good. You know, they are giving me the medicines, you know. I am better. Yes, I am okay. I am a very lucky person. I don't think that I will survive like this. [Unintelligible] Right now I think, look I think so positively because when I'm thinking anything, I think about all those things passed in my head come. Like, you know, I am seeing them.

MW: Having been through all of those horrific experiences in Libya, and knowing what you know now, would you have set out from Gambia?

ANONYMOUS: No. If I know that Libya is terrible, I wouldn't put myself in danger. I love to save. I don't want to take life. So, it is better if I know that Libya is so worse like this, I saved my life before I go to Libya, kill myself or make suffer like this.

MW: Thank you. Thank you very much for sharing this terrible story with us. Best of luck.

ANONYMOUS: Sure. Thank you very much.

MW: That's a Gambian migrant whose testimony is part of a new Oxfam report about the abuse experienced by migrants like him, in Libya. We are withholding his name to protect his identity. For more on the Oxfam International study on experiences like this, I'm joined now by Elisa Bacciotti,. She is Oxfam Italy's campaign director and she joins us from Florence. Hello.

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Hello.

MW: Hi. We just heard from a 23 year old Gambian man, who was featured in your report, and he spoke of being tortured, held for ransom, lied to about Libya's greener pastures. How common is this kind of story among those arriving from Libya?

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Unfortunately the story that you have just heard is a common one among the many migrants that come across the central Mediterranean route and arrived in Italy. We have been speaking with the more than 200 of them and the vast majority of them shows us a consistent picture of slavery, murder, abuse and heart suffering that they have gone through, through the detention center that are in need. You have spoken with a man from Gambia. But in our report there are also evidences of what is happening to women, which are of course particularly vulnerable to the different forms of abuses. And in particular, all but one women that we spoke to have reported they have been suffering of sexual abuse, during their journey in Libya and during their [unintelligible] to leave yes.

MW: Now the abuse is at the hands of human traffickers, correct?

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Yes. I mean we have to remember that Libya is a very fragile state and is currently in a very chaotic situation. There is an ongoing fight between militia, with a weak transitional government. So in that county many of official, and unofficial, detention camps are in fact managed by different form of smugglers that kidnap, enslave and extort money from migrants.

MW: Now, in the name of trying to combat the human traffickers, Italy, backed by the EU, has provided training, boats, equipment to the Libyan coast guard to stop the human traffickers from taking boatloads of people, beyond the Libyan waters. And last month at, least for the first time, it seemed to be successful, compared to last July and June of this year. The numbers of migrants arriving in Italy fell from about 23000 a month. That was the number from last July, to less than 12000. How does this affect migrants though?

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Well, the problem is that the Italy and Europe is trying to curb the migration influx, but not really taking to account what happens to these migrants, if they are brought back in Libya by the Libyan coast guard, or if they remain in Libya. In fact, if you look at the numbers you can see that the traffic across the central Med route is decreasing. But in fact, the people there would want to escape anyway. So, you'll have other routes. In this case, we are witnessing is an increase of people going through the Spanish route and arriving off the coast of Spain. That indicates that the reality is that, in this in this condition in Libya and particularly but in general, the people that are trying to escape would want to escape anyway. Therefore, I mean carping the flukes but without tackling the root causes of migration is not the right choice of policy, when it comes to European and Italian leaders.

MW: Now, NGO boats, these are the Médecins Sans Frontières and these sorts of organization who are saving people in the Mediterranean in boats. They've been recently been accused of aiding and encouraging human trafficking, by taking cell calls from smugglers who tell them where boatloads of people are, at least that's the accusation. And then directly offload people from the boats on the NGO boats. What do you make of these claims?

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Well, we don't run such operations. So, we have not the specific details, from the operational point of view, on what it is about carrying a search and rescue operation, in the Med Sea. But of course we respect much and we commend the lifesaving activities that NGOs like Médecins Sans Frontières, or Save the Children, have being doing so far. We think that any allegation that has been made, in the last few weeks, against this kind of organization they have to be further assessed and have to be proven in court. And at the moment this is not happening. So we will be careful in establishing the link between these kind of lifesaving activities, and humanitarian activities carried out by the NGO, and the smugglers’ activity.

MW: Okay. Almost 100000 people have crossed from Libya to Italy, this year, and some 2500 people have have died, have drowned. What needs to be done to save lives at sea and protect lives in Libya?

ELISA BACCIOTTI: Well, on one side I think there is a continuous and sustained need to maintain search and rescue operation, either done by NGOs, either done by the official powers, by the official activities, official activities counties are obliged to search for and rescue or anyone in distress at sea. And it's important that Europe keeps up action work for as long as needed. And as for the smuggling network, we have to come along with the creation of safer legal route. And, on one side, to make it easier for people that are fleeing from war to reach the shores of Europe. And in addition to that, I mean there is a need to tackle what we will call the root causes of migration. Therefore the situation of instability and insecurity in Libya, but also in other African counties, where these people come from, create [unintelligible] these people the insecurity that force them to leave and to choose the most dangerous option to come to Europe.

MW: Okay, well, a lot to think about there. IT is a complicated situation and no doubt we'll keep following it. Thanks very much.

ELISA BACCIOTTI: You're very welcome.

MW: That was Elisa Bacciotti, Oxfam Italy's campaign director. She joined us from Florence. The International Organization for Migration, a U.N. body, is working on the ground in Libya to monitor the condition of migrants. Last month Leonard Doyle was part of a delegation from the IOM that visited the migrant detention centers in Libya. He's a spokesperson for the IOM him and we've reached him this morning in Geneva. Hello.

LEONARD DOYLE: Good morning. Earlier we heard from a Gambian man, who was held in detention in Libya. What did you witness when you went to the prisons where the migrants were held in Libya?

LEONARD DOYLE: I went with the director general of IOM, the U.N. migration agency. This is the first visit by the head of any U.N. agency, since the fall of Gadhafi. So it's a long time that the international community has been kind of absent from Libya. We went to one particular sentient center, which was tidied up, to say the least. The migrants were all sitting in rows. They had a bagette in their hand and a bottle of water. Women were on one side, men on the other. The area where they sleep looked fairly okay, although very very crowded, you know, mattresses without an inch between them. But it has to be stressed that this is the tidied up [unintelligible]. This is the Potemkin village, where you know as the tours come through, as the VIP has come through, it's tidied up. But there's no doubt about it. But it is deeply exploitative of the migrants. Whether or not it happened in the official ones, is kind of irrelevant, because it's happening all over the place. The migrants, the minute they step off the bus, coming into Libya, they are kind of taken in hand and shaken down many are put into effectively slave auctions. Women are treated appallingly and abused sexually and are put into prostitution. Men are forced to work. And they kind of go through a system of exploitation that can last months, until they finally kind of end up in the detention centers, waiting their turn to make it to Europe, which is not any more guaranteed.

MW: Tell me how the migrant economy works in Libya?

LEONARD DOYLE: Well it probably starts you know with a long chain, a long kind of supply chain that will be in a village somewhere, let's say Gambia or Ghana or Nigeria, in which in which a smuggler or trafficker smuggler, rather, will know the community and will be there recruiting youngsters to kind of get on this great adventure and we'll be promising what a great opportunity it is. At the same time there are traffickers who are specializing in bringing women, particularly from Nigeria, and they lured them onto this journey. They spend relatively small amount of money getting on the bus through Niger. They keep going and you know inevitably fall into the hands of very exploitative people.

MW: And I imagine that, well we know, people who are making a lot of money.

LEONARD DOYLE: The money that's being made is frightening. I mean one boatload of migrants going a couple of miles offshore, everybody paying up to a thousand dollars, I guess. You know a hundred people by a thousand dollars. That's a lot of money.

MW: We heard from Oxfam, who are saying that European policies to curb migration, are not really taking into consideration the impact that they have on migrants, who are in Libya. Do you agree with that?

LEONARD DOYLE: Well I mean…It's easy to point fingers in this game but it is a very, very serious issue and it is radically changing European politics for the worst. So, an uncontrolled flow of irregular migrants or illegal migrants, some people say it is not a useful thing in a kind of entity, in a union where so many countries have far right parties, you know, on the brink of taking national power. The European body politic has become increasingly xenophobic, if not outright hostile, to migrants especially those coming from Africa. To some extent the Europeans you know are caught. They have to do something they're trying to maintain the systems they have, the liberal democracies that they have. And at the same time respect the human rights, and at the same time deal with the flow that is just unsustainable and very difficult to manage. And a lot of what they're doing is supporting organizations, like IOM and others, to protect the migrants in Libya and try and ensure that those who wish to return home are able to do so. Many irrespective just want to get on the boat and want to try their luck and they inevitably are returned home anyway.

MW: Now a lot of the rescues off the coast of Libya are carried out by NGO boats. Today the UN Office for human rights released a statement about their role and the code of conduct that Italy has tried to impose on them. What do you think of that?

LEONARD DOYLE: The UN officer office for human rights is putting out a statement, through one of their rapporteurs and essentially saying that some new legislation, or new rules by the Italian government for a code of conduct for the NGOs, that you've just mentioned, potentially puts the migrants at risk and potentially could result in the loss of lives. They're kind of said sending up a flare of warning if you like to the Italian government on the one hand and to and to others that they need to look really carefully before implementing this.

MW: Now you've been to Libya you've seen how people are living there. What do you think needs to be done to solve the problem?

LEONARD DOYLE: We need to look at the root causes of this. Why are so many migrants putting their lives into their hands and jumping on the bus and trying to make it through the desert and then on through Libya? Why are they doing that? And the answer I think is that there's massive inequality in income taking place in the world, in particular in West Africa where population growth is off the charts. Many of those migrants who come through are in their 20s and they will have five six seven dependents already at age 25. Something needs to be done in terms of governance, in terms of building stable economies that can sustain the population, that can give people realistic options. And please, the options that people think of today are different to the options that they might have seen or thought about, a couple of years ago, thanks to the wonderful power of the Internet. They see everything now. They see what life is like outside their village. So, people want to improve their lives. It's also a paradox that as countries do a little better, everybody wants to get up and move to a better place. So, development brings with it an urge to move and an urge to migrate.

MW: Thanks very much for speaking with us this morning.

LEONARD DOYLE: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

MW: Leonard Doyle is a spokesperson for the International Organization for Migration. He spoke to us from Geneva. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for a new episode of the summer series On Drugs. This week it's drugs and fun. Why is it that we can feel so bad about feeling so good? And why is it that pleasure is never part of the conversation around drug policy? Finally, we started today's show by hearing more about the racially charged violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, this past weekend. 50 years ago, in the summer of 1967 America was roiled by race riots, in the city of Detroit, riots that forever changed the face of that city. To mark the 50th anniversary, the Detroit Free Press has posted on their website interviews with dozens of Detroiters who remember the riots. Here's some of what Judge Lucille A Watts, a lawyer in 1967, had to say. She worked with other black lawyers to get black men released from authorities during the riot. I'm Megan Williams thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

LUCILLE A. WATTS: It's funny how you can live in a city and not realize what is going on, except in your narrow little world. But I didn't realize that there was all this anger being built up in the community and I should have understood it. And then, I realized that, as Black lawyers in this town, we had to do something. So, we kind of pulled Black lawyers together and started getting folks out of jail, who were being rounded up like cattle. People were picked up for no reason. Just if he was a black and a man, he was subject to be picked up. I never felt that the so called right did anything that was really helpful to this town, except to wake some of us up. And I think we all became aware that something was happening, that we hadn't noticed, and that we had to do something because there was nobody else to do it. We're… Kind of back there again, with the community and the police. We are a lot more aware than we were in 67, but not as aware as we ought to be. They feel put upon and we know we're put upon.

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August 15, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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