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The AIH Transcript for July 7, 2017

Hosts: Laura Lynch and Chris Howden

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

LL: Hello I'm Laura Lynch.

CH: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

LL: Reparation anxiety. There are congratulations and consternation after the government apologizes to Omar Khadr and pays him millions in compensation. And his lawyer says it's a fair deal for Canada's role in his ordeal.

CH: A long distance call. Tens of thousands of people march across Turkey demanding the president stop his crackdown on dissent. And they've walked 400 kilometers to Istanbul to make their point.

LL: Hoping for a last word. Friends of the long imprisoned democracy activist and Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo say he's close to death and they're pleading with the Chinese government to meet with him before it's too late.

CH: Hot under the collar. Members of the so-called Western chauvinist group known as the “Proud Boys” wear Fred Perry shirts is a uniform, and the head of the clothing company says their message is a poor fit.

LL: Dip of the iceberg. Our guest describes the numb feeling he had watching a man swim into the cool waters off Newfoundland to sit on an iceberg. But you'll have to imagine the numb feelings he had.

CH: And, throwing down the towel. When Governor Chris Christie infuriates residents of New Jersey by lounging on the beach after he'd close the shore to everyone else, a state assemblyman introduces a bill that would allow people to rent out Mr. Christie’s beach house.
As It Happens, The Friday edition radio that suggests you don't let the baskers grind you down.

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Part 1: Omar Khadr: lawyer, Liu Xiaobo latest, iceberg swimmer

Omar Khadr: lawyer

Guest: John Phillips

CHRIS HOWDEN: It's official.
This morning, a pair of government ministers confirmed reports of a settlement with Omar Khadr. They said that the amount of the settlement remains confidential, but there have stories all week putting the figure at just over 10 million dollars.
But Omar Khadr says he isn't celebrating. The former Guantanamo prisoner spoke about the settlement with the CBC's Rosemary Barton. This is from that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

OMAR KHADR: For me, this is not a time for celebration, this is a time for reconciliation, remembrance, healing. And I really hope that the talk of the settlement or the apology does not cause people pain, and if it does, you know, I'm really sorry for that pain.

ROSMARY BARTON: Are you talking about the Speers family, who already says, who's already out there publicly saying you don't deserve money, or they should, they should have the money, if there is money.

OK: As I said, I'm really sorry for their pain. This is not my intention. So this is a time for, you know, reconciliation and hopefully not forgetting. But, you know, moving on and healing.

CH: That was Omar Khadr speaking with Rosemary Barton of the CBC's Power and Politics. Word of Mr Khadr's multi-million dollar settlement has upset many Canadians, and the Conservatives are showing no signs of moving on.
Earlier this week, Tony Clement, their Public Safety Critic, told us he'd block the deal. And this afternoon in Ottawa, his boss, Andrew Scheer, voiced his concerns. Here's some of what the Conservative leader had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Let's be clear about a couple of points. First of all, this whole ordeal started under liberal governance. When the Supreme Court issued its ruling, the previous conservative government repatriated Omar Khadr. The remedy, the only remedy that was ever mentioned in court decisions for accounting for the actions of Canadian officials was that Mr. Katar should be repatriated. The previous conservative government did that, that's where the story should have ended.

REPORTER: If you become Prime Minister, would you treat a case like this differently.

AS: I can absolutely assure you.

REPORTER: I don’t mean the pay-off, I mean the incarceration etcetera.

AS: I believe it's very important for every government, regardless of political stripe, to uphold Canadian laws and concede and uphold Canadian principles of fundamental justice. And when those instances happen, it's appropriate for the Canadian government to respond appropriately. And the appropriate response in this situation has already happened. It was the repatriation of Omar Khadr. He is here today in Canada because of the previous conservative government recognising the court's ruling. That's where this story should have ended. Everything else is a decision by Justin Trudeau to go above and beyond that remedy and pay Omar Khadr 10.5, apparently 10.5 million dollars. They refused to come clean on this which is another point I'd like to expand on.
Their defense of their actions, their defense of their choice, is that it would have ultimately cost more money to uphold the principle that Canadian taxpayers shouldn't have to pay Omar Khadr, and that this is somehow a bargain for Canadian taxpayers. I dismiss that absolutely. I believe that there is value in fighting for that principle, that we don't pay convicted terrorists compensation. And the fact that they aren't coming clean with the amount, they're asking us to trust them that it's a good deal. Well I certainly don't trust them.

CH: That was Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer speaking to reporters this afternoon in Ottawa.
John Phillips is Omar Khadr's lawyer. We reached him in Toronto.

LL: Mr. Phillips, Andrew Scheer says the Canadian government shouldn't be giving money to convicted terrorists. How do you respond?

JOHN PHILLIPS: It's a complete mischaracterization of who Omar was under the international conventions which Mr. Scheer refused to respond directly to. Mr. Khadr, or Omar was a child soldier or a child in armed conflict, and it specifies ways that they are to be dealt with, including reintegration, rehabilitation, and to be looked at as victims not as criminals or as terrorists. So to characterize it, as you did, and to continue to demonize Omar, is simply to continue with what Mr. Harper did when he was prime minister.

LL: But he was a convicted terrorist then and apparently the Canadian government has given him 10.5 million dollars.

JP: Well I'm not going to comment on quantum or the amount of the settlement, but to call him a convicted terrorist in the system that was operative in Guantanamo is to misunderstand the rule of law and civilized legal proceedings.

LL: What do you say to Mr. Scheer's assertion that Canada has a responsibility to Omar Khadr ended when Stephen Harper's government brought him back to Canada?

JP: Well I'm not quite sure who briefed him but the Supreme Court of Canada has said that rehabilitation would be a good thing to do but let the candidate decide what remedy it wanted to invoke. And the only remedy that the Harper government invoked was to simply make a request that the US not use the statements taken by the Canadian interrogators in the U.S. military proceedings. That's all they did. The idea of repatriation as it’s characterized was not what happened. He was set back under a statutory agreement between Canada the United States.

LL: But at the same time, he is also saying that that was the end of the matter. Once he landed back here, that's enough for him.

JP: Unfortunately the government, that past government and the current Conservative Party doesn't seem to learn from the mistakes that they've made. The conventions talk about rehabilitation, reintegration. Their rule of law, if they don't like that, if they don't think that we should do anything for a child who is groomed into being a soldier in Afghanistan at the age of 15 years old, then first of all start with repealing the remove our signature from the Convention Against Terror, remove our signature from the Convention on the Rights of the Child, pull us out of the Optional Protocol on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict.

LL: Let's get to another point here Mr. Sharon was also angry about the Liberal government's news conference earlier today where the ministers tried to put all of the blame for the settlement on the Harper government's actions. And I want to ask you when did the liability to Omar Khadr begin?

JP: The interrogations were conducted in 2003 and 2004. And frankly, the continued demonization of Omar and the breaches continued right up until he was released on bail in Canada.

LL: So let's be clear then, it is also due to the Liberal government’s actions as well as the Conservative government's actions.

JP: Well the previous Liberal government, I'm not sure to what extent is it percolated to the top of that governmental system. But what's clear to me, is that as this matter moved along including having decisions made by the Supreme Court of Canada. Whether under the previous Liberal government or under the Harper government no one seemed to learn their lesson. Even when the Supreme Court of Canada told them that they had made errors.

LL: Now I know you stated that you don't want to talk about the amount of money that was given to Omar Khadr, but the money has become a huge flashpoint for people. I imagine almost any amount of money would become a flashpoint for a lot of people. It's very a very divisive thing. Do you understand that?

JP: Absolutely I understand that. But I think people also need to understand two things that it's trying to do. One, it's trying to make sure it sends enough of a message that this is never repeated, these kind of deliberate breaches of chartering convention rights. And secondly, Omar lost his adolescence, his early adulthood, his prom, his marriage. Anything that we all did between the ages of 15 and 28, Omar didn't have any of that. Instead he sat in segregation in Guantanamo while our government sat idle.

LL: The widow of the medic who died though in the firefight in Afghanistan has lawyers trying to keep the money from going to Omar Khadr because she secured a huge judgment against him in an American court. Why isn't the money going to her?

JP: Well first of all, I have huge issues with the decision to render a judgment in the U.S. courts on the basis that they did. Secondly, the evidence doesn't support anything in terms of what actually happened to Sergeant Speers. It doesn't conclude who or how he was killed, and in fact his last forensic evidence in all sorts of things that would suggest that the case against Omar was very very weak, and the only way you could make it out was on confessions being made from him. And those confessions were taken when he was in Bagram, and later in Guantanamo, when he was a child and when he was tortured. And so I have problems with that.
And I if I could encourage Ms. Speers to think about this differently, her husband her husband went to Afghanistan to fight for Western values. And one of those Western values is that we look at children as children. Not as soldiers, not as terrorists but as children. And maybe they’d been groomed to behave in a certain way. But Western values say that we should do things to help them to bring them out of that and I think Sergeant Speers was there fighting for those values. And now to try to punish a boy who was a boy when all this happened for something that frankly I don't think they could prove that he did. But even if he had, it's a complete mistake and I don't think it's something that Sergeant Speers or the U.S. military if they actually thought about it would be pushing.

LL: Do you expect that this will ever die down for Omar Khadr, that this kind of controversy will ever fade away?

JP: I think as people get to know him and to realize who he actually is, which he's when he got released on bail, he said to Mr. Harper watch me. In his most recent interviews, he's basically saying the same thing. He is a good Canadian citizen. And I think we'll all recognize that eventually. Does that mean there's less controversy? No. But does it suggest I think to the Canadian public that we need to think about how this how this happened and ensure that it doesn't happen to a kid again? That's for the message is.

LL: Have you spoken to Omar Khadr today?

JP: I have.

LL: How would you describe his reaction to the controversy swirling around all of this?

JP: If I put words in his mouth, which he would put in his own of this way he, he would say “Just watch me I am all that I've represented you that I was I spoke after I got out of jail. When I said what I said in my early interviews. Watch me.”

LL: Mr. Phillips, I thank you very much for your time.

JP: Thank you, Laura. It’s great talking to you.

LL: Bye-bye.

JP: Bye-bye.

CH: John Phillips is Omar Khadr's lawyer. He was in Toronto.
We requested interviews with both Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale and Justice Minister Wilson Raybold, but neither was available to speak to us today.

[Music]

Liu Xiaobo: latest

Guest: Jared Genser

CH: Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo is reaching his final days.
In May, the Chinese democracy campaigner was diagnosed with late-stage liver cancer, after more than seven years in prison. In 2009, he was sentenced to 11 years, after writing a pro-democracy manifesto called Charter 08. In that manifesto, he called for an end to one-party rule, and improvements in human rights.
Since Mr. Liu's release, his friends and fellow activists have been pleading with the Chinese government to allow the 61-year-old to seek treatment overseas. And now – as his condition worsens – many are also asking Chinese authorities to meet with the dying activist before it's too late.
Jared Genser is one of Liu Xiaobo's lawyers. He's also the founder of Freedom Now, a non-profit organization that works to free prisoners detained for their human rights work. We reached him in Las Vegas.

LL: Mr. Genser, what do you know right now about Liu Xiaobo’s condition?

JARED GENSER: Well he of course has been diagnosed with terminal liver cancer. We know that he currently is deteriorating at an unfortunately relatively steady clip. He has substantial fluid in his abdomen which they’re are seeking to remove in a range of ways but the medicines that do that are very very strong and have an adverse impact on his other organs. He also has scaled back some of his eating as well. And we are very very concerned about his rapid decline. And more importantly, that while he is undergoing this rapid decline, that he is really cut off from friends, family, as well as the international community.

LL: His wife, Liu Xia was also placed under house arrest shortly after he was sent to jail in 2009. How are she and the rest of the family holding up these days?

JG: I've been in touch with her over the years, only sporadically because she was under a really substantial enforced house arrest from really right after he was announced as the recipient of the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize. Since he has been put in a hospital in Shenyang, she's been able to reach out to a number of family. I would say that she is having an extraordinarily difficult time. This is just totally and unequivocally devastating. I mean she has suffered so much under house arrest. She suffered from severe depression, she had a heart attack. Her brother was wrongly imprisoned and given a lengthy prison terms or two years in jail for economic crimes as a means to keep pressure on her and her family. And to learn of his diagnosis on top of everything that she's been through I can only be just totally devastating.

LL: What was your reaction when you first found out how sick Mr. Liu really was?

JG: Well I've been working on their behalf since mid-2010, before he actually was announced as the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. And I got to know the Liu Xia for a number of months including advising her in the run up to the announcement of the prize as to, you know, what she might do and whether she would want to fight from abroad for his freedom or stay in China. And she told me her choice was clear and unequivocal that she was going to stay in China with her husband. And it is incredibly difficult. The world has really scaled back its willingness to press China on human rights issues and it's been a long hard slog to get the international community to focus on his situation.

LL: Do you know anything about what his treatment was in prison?

JG: Over the course of the time he has been in jail, you know really from December of 2009 when he was convicted and given an 11 year sentence for subversion, the only person who had access to him has been his wife on a monthly basis typically she was taken to see him.
And he was held in solitary confinement throughout the term of his detention, was treated relatively well, all things considered. But clearly it's self-evident that he was not getting regular medical attention or examinations. Because the fact that out of nowhere he could be diagnosed with stage 4 terminal liver cancer is, I think, a terrible reflection on the Chinese government's mistreatment of him and a whole host of aspects.

LL: But this week, China did invite medical experts from the U.S. and Germany to help Mr. Liu. What do you make of that?

JG: You know I think the Chinese government obviously on the one hand clearly has very little interest in him or his wife being able to speak to the international community about what they're going through. On the other hand, you know the diagnosis was a real blow for the Chinese government as well because it makes it appear like they were totally asleep at the switch when it came to his health. I think they've been forced to accept this kind of engagement by the international community.
You know, a German doctor visited him today, several U.S. doctors will be visiting him tomorrow. And we’ll very very quickly have a good idea as to whether we confirm his desire to travel abroad for medical treatment. And then obviously the real question will be whether China will demonstrate an act of profound mercy for a man who has suffered so much with his wife and grant his dying wishes to be able to travel abroad.

LL: Short of that happening, many of his friends are asking for Chinese authorities to give Mr. Liu a chance to speak to an audience, if you will, one last time. Is there any optimism that would happen before he dies?

JG: Well I think we're going to see in the next several days how things are going to play out. It's going to be obviously very very challenging to unravel this situation in light of his rapidly deteriorating health. At the same time, the United States is heavily engaged, the United Nations is heavily engaged. Many other governments around the world are engaged. You know, I would definitely be grateful for any support from the government of Canada and from Prime Minister Trudeau who could put pressure on the Chinese government as well.
We very much need President Xi to understand that the status quo is not acceptable. There is no way that he should have to die isolated from the international community, not being able to see friends and family one last time and totally cut off from the world.

LL: Now I know you've only met Mr. Liu's wife, but I'm wondering if you have a sense from meeting her and others who are close to him what kind of person he is.

JG: I've heard so many stories about him and I would want nothing more than to be able to meet him before he dies having spent so many years working on his behalf. I mean he is a prolific writer, a man with an extraordinary sense of humor, a man who loves deeply. He and his wife have a very romantic, very personal relationship. They were poems to each other. And despite living under the one party system for his whole life, has been unrelenting in his determination to point out the dramatic flaws in a one party system, and to demand or to emphasize that China can do so much better for its own people and that the people of China deserve a voice in their own future. And I hope and pray and I'm doing everything I can from where I sit to ensure that the world will be able to hear his voice one last time and that his wishes to travel abroad for medical treatment are on are fully and unequivocal.

LL: Mr. Genser, we will leave it there. Thank you.

JG: Thank you.

CH: That was Jared Genser, a lawyer who represents Liu Xiaobo Mr. Genser is also the founder of Freedom Now. We reached him in Las Vegas.

[Music]

Iceberg swimmer

Guest: Jerry George

CH: In Newfoundland, the icebergs are so big it feels like you can reach out and touch them. But generally, you can't. And you shouldn't. Although that didn't stop a visitor from trying to touch one, recently – but just diving into the frigid water and swimming out to it.
Jerry George was on the road with his wife when they pulled out his phone to capture the incident. We reached Mr. George in Corner Brook, Newfoundland.

LL: Jerry can you set the scene for us? You were driving along with your wife and then what happened?

JERRY GEORGE: Well yes it was the Canada Day weekend and my wife is Vietnamese and loves to see the icebergs and take pictures, so we left Steady Brook on the West Coast of the island to drive to Twillingate and we were crossing the last main causeway between New World Island and Twillingate Island, and as we pulled on to the causeway, there was an iceberg fairly close into the causeway. And my wife wanted to stop to take a picture so we pulled up on the side of the road and got to take a few pictures of the iceberg.

LL: And then?

JG: And then a car pulled in behind us and a young fellow got on the passenger side and proceeded to start to take his shirt off and take his shoes and his socks off. And I'm standing there and it's seven degrees. It's windy. I've got a down-filled jacket on and I'm looking at him and you know and my wife is as well. And so I proceeded to then speak to him and he said that he wanted to touch an iceberg. Not a common phrase even for Newfoundland so.

LL: Well what did you say to him?

JG: Well I said, you know, you need to be concerned about hypothermia with the air temperature and the water temperature, especially considering there is an iceberg in the middle of the water there chilling it even more. You need to be concerned about hypothermia. And he said “I've swam in colder waters” and I'm I said “OK.” So that gave me a little confidence in what he was doing.
So then he proceeded to step over the guardrail and climb down over the large rocks, you know we're talking about a causeway that's designed for a road between two islands, so it's not a beach. It’s large rocks under the roadway. And he started to climb down over the rocks. And when he got to the last one, he dove into the ocean.

LL: He dove in without any hesitation?

JG: It could have been a dip in a backyard pool by the look of his confidence. He didn't dive in and come up you know screeching for breath as you hit the North Atlantic Ocean. He dove in probably did a body length of a body length and a half under water as you can see by the video and comes up and then proceeded to brushstroke to the iceberg. My initial concern was, you know, am I going to be dialing 911 or am I going to be in this water trying to trying to rescue somebody because it wasn't to you know wasn't the kind of idea of get about on my Canada Day weekend.

LL: You say he was using the breast stroke. How long did it take him to get to the iceberg?

JG: You see the video probably took him maybe you know four or five good strokes to get out. And then you know he proceeds, and I thought he was going to, as you, said touch the iceberg and turn around but he didn't and proceeded to pull himself up on the side of the berg, so. He put up his hands and you know the square of a picture and so there and then then he got up on his feet and he dove back into the ocean and then swam back into shore. And you know, definitely an adventure seeker, let me put it that way.

LL: Did you get close enough to him to smell his breath?

JG: He was not. In discussing and talking to him no he wasn't. He was just a young guy looking for an adventure. He had something and he said something “on the list” as they say. He said “I always wanted to touch an iceberg.” I didn't get any sense that he was in any way impaired.

LL: Kissing the cod just wasn't enough for him.

JG: Kissing the cod is mild in comparison. Other than drinking the [unintelligible].

LL: Exactly. Have you or have you ever seen anything like this before?

JG: No this is, you know, I’ve seen lots of people doing lots of adventuresome things in Newfoundland. We are a place where people come to do just that. And but yeah, no, I can't say that I've seen anybody dive into the ocean.
And I thought about it at the time you know and knowing the Newfoundland waters and having been in the waters in my younger days you know. You'd hit that kind of water and the first thing you'd do wish you'd come up gasping for air as you had the impact of the cold. But no, not him. He just he just swam on and on. And when I saw him, I said “Look, this guy can swim. He knows what he's doing”. He wasn't shocked by the conditions.

LL: So Jerry, I gotta ask you. After witnessing all of that, are you inspired? Are you going to try swimming to an iceberg anytime soon?

JG: Um, no. You know I've done some adventuresome things in the past but I don't think it stacks up with this one.

LL: So OK Jerry, thanks for telling us about it.

JG: Oh you're welcome and I hope people enjoyed the video.

LL: Thank you. Bye-bye.

JG: Bye-bye.

CH: We reached Jerry George in Corner Brook, Newfoundland.

Lord Byron Jupiter

CH: Poets have always taken inspiration from the heavens. John Keats's "Bright star, would I were steadfast as thou art." Shakespeare's 14th Sonnet. That guy from the band Train in the song "Drops of Jupiter."
Truth is, I'm not really familiar with the first two, and I wish I'd never mentioned the third, or even heard it. But that Train song is actually the most pertinent to this story. Unfortunately.
In the fourth canto of his extremely long masterpiece, "Childe Harold's Pilgrimage," Byron describes looking up at the moon, and seeing that, quote, "A single star is at her side, and reigns / With her o'er half the lovely heaven..." Most of us would read that and think, "Yeah, stars are nice." But Texas State University professor Donald Olson read it and launched an investigation.
Professor Olson pored over Lord Byron's correspondence, in which the poet insisted he wasn't just being, like, poetic: there really had been a cool star next to the moon. Then Professor Olson read the diary of Lord Byron's house guest in Italy at the time, who mentioned that they had seen the cool star together while horseback riding on August 20th, 1817.
After doing even more research, Professor Olson used fancy software to recreate the night sky as it would have appeared to two guys in jodhpurs on that date in that location. And he found that that "single star" wasn't a star at all. It was Jupiter.
You're probably not jumping up and shouting, "I knew it!" In fact, you're probably not even jumping up and shouting, "I cared about it!" But in a way, Professor Olson's research does connect us to Lord Byron.
Now you can picture him musing about a specific object in the sky on a specific night. And yes, he was wrong that it was a star – but with that striking red eye and its entourage of moons, you have to admit Jupiter has a certain star quality.

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Part 2: Turkey march, Christie beach house

Turkey march

Guest: Selin Sayek-Boke

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Protestors chanting]

CHRIS HOWDEN: For three weeks now, protesters have been marching across Turkey in the tens of thousands – braving a record heat wave, rain, and sometimes mountainous roads.
The "justice march" was called for by the Republican People's Party, or CHP – Turkey's main opposition party. But it has since swelled to bring together opponents of President Erdogan from across political lines. Their unifying message to Mr. Erdogan: stop the crackdown on dissent.
Since an attempted coup last year, thousands have been arrested, and academics and civil servants have been purged in the tens of thousands.
The march began in Ankara on June 15th and will end with a large rally in Istanbul this Sunday – some 250 miles or 400 kilometres later.
Selin Sayek-Boke is a member of parliament from the CHP who has been participating in the march. We reached her in Istanbul.

LAURA LYNCH: Ms. Sayek-Boke, this hasn't been an easy journey for you. What is the mood like today among the marchers?

SELIN SAYEK-BOKE: Oh the mood is wonderful. By the day, we're growing in numbers. But also I think in the spirit of hope and a brighter future. So the crowds are getting larger which is indeed increasing the confidence. So I keep on saying, every step one takes, that creates a tenfold effect among the larger public. And we are observing that courage is indeed contagious. So that's triggering a lot of hope and optimism for tomorrow.

LL: Is there any official estimate of how many people have participated?

SSB: We know of official numbers on instances. So it's an instant that there are around 20,000 on average each day. That we know officially from public sources. But we should keep in mind that there is a huge turn around because we've been passing by several large cities on the way. So one could easily claim that there have been more than 300,000 people who have walked on and off over the past 23 days.

LL: Now your party, the CHP, called for the march last month. What are you demanding?

SSB: This march started with the jailing of one of our MPs. But indeed it's a march that calls for justice for 80 million. We have journalists who are imprisoned. We have been going through an amazing purge by hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country. Academics have lost their jobs. The youth is afraid to speak out. And we experienced as Turkey all together on the 16th of April an illegitimate referendum. So this has brought together those who have been calling for democracy and those who have been calling for justice to once again come together.

LL: I understand what you're saying about all of the arrests that have happened since the coup attempt last year, and what you're calling a purge. But the fact remains that the majority of the population voted for Erdogan and his party.

SSB: I think we should go back to the 16th of April, the referendum we had for the constitutional change. It would be unfair to argue that the majority of the society actually approved the injustices and approved the lack of democracy in the country. Indeed, despite all the oppression we know that more than 50 percent of the people in this country voted for a parliamentarian democracy and against the constitutional change. So this is indeed going beyond political parties. It's a societal issue that has touched on every walks of people in Turkey.

LL: Well you're saying that this crosses party boundaries, and yet the root of this march has passed through a number of Erdogan's strongholds. And some people there don't like you very much.

SSB: I would argue the following. Yes we have walked through cities and municipalities that have voted strongly for AKP.

LL: AKP being the ruling party.

SSB: The ruling party, yes. The bystanders were dominantly those who were chanting for and supporting the marchers. So if there were 10 cars who were reacting to the walking crowds, indeed, close to nine of them would be supportive. I think here it's critical to note the following those who were marching were chanting the principle for justice, calling out for rule of law, and those minimal numbers of bystanders who were opposing were chanting the name of Erdogan.

LL: Now, President Erdogan has accused the protesters of having links with terrorist organizations and he's planning his own weeklong democracy March beginning next week. What do you think of how he has responded to this? I mean, for one thing, he is obviously allowed this march to go ahead. You got police protection.

SSB: In democracies, nobody allows people to do this. This is the rights of the public. Therefore, it's not in a president's hand to allow or not allow for a democratic right to be used. Maybe I should ask the audience, can you win an 80 million population country and half of them being terrorists?
Anybody who has opposed the ruling party has been accused of terrorists during the referendum campaign. We're seeing the same thing. A political party that no longer has a positive story to speak for the future of this country is unfortunately attacking those of us who are proposing alternatives for true democracy in Turkey.

LL: Before this march, your party had avoided endorsing participation in mass public protests. What's changed?

SSB: In a normal democracy, the political scene would allow individuals to contribute in two different dimensions. One is through MPs, where those of us who are elected would be able to do lawmaking and allow for a true representation of the public. And the second channel would be the civil society participation of individuals. Anybody who has opposed the ruling party in any way has been silenced, has been jailed and their future has been taken from their hands. Therefore these normal channels of politics is clogged. So we no longer have the luxury of acting as if Turkey has a normal political scene.

LL: President Erdogan is warning there will be consequences if the protests continue beyond their planned end on Sunday. Given that and the other statements that he's been making about your group, what do you expect to see at the final rally in Istanbul?

SSB: The final rally will only be a final point for this walk for justice. However, opening up new channels for politics will definitely continue and should continue. This walk will end on Sunday. But this walk was only a first step for a new politics in Turkey and that will definitely continue into the future.

LL: Do you fear any violence?

SSB: I don't. And the reason I don't is because I've been in the walk. And it has been an amazingly Democratic walk because those who are included in the crowd, if they hear an opposing voice, they do not respond, they applaud and they chant the words of justice, the words of rule of law. This crowd indeed has been extremely cautious in using its democratic rights in a very peaceful manner. And I have no doubt that will continue on Sunday.

LL: Ms. Sayek-Boke, thank you very much.

SSB: Thank you.

CH: Selin Sayek-Boke is an MP with Turkey's largest opposition party. She's been participating in the justice march. We reached her in Istanbul.

[Music]

From Our Archives: Pam McConnell obituary

CH: At Toronto City Hall, Pam McConnell sat through seven consecutive terms and five mayors – and witnessed tumultuous change. But in that time, the veteran city councillor's approach stayed the same – to be a voice for those who didn't have one.
Councillor McConnell died today at the age of 71. Her long-time friend and colleague Paula Fletcher noted that Pam, quote, "always took the time to be kind even in the heat of argument at city hall." Unquote.
And Councillor McConnell sat through many arguments. One of them was in the fall of 2013 – when city council was voting to reduce the powers of former Mayor Rob Ford. And things got physical.
On November 18th, 2013, As It Happens spoke to an unflappable Councillor McConnell after she was pushed to the ground by Mayor Ford. Here's part of what she told Carol that day.

SOUNDCLIP

PAM MCCONNELL: You know, it all happened so fast. And it was so unbelievable what was happening, was surreal. I guess I was in between where Doug Ford and Rob Ford were, and for whatever reason Rob Ford took off like a charging bull and I was behind his staff. And him he charged me and ran right over me. I lost my balance. I kind of looked up and he kept going and pushed me again. And fortunately, his staff were there and picked me up before I hit my head against the railing which would have been a lot more damage than what I got.

CAROL OFF: But he was he wasn't attacking you, it just you got between him and his brother.

PM: I have no idea why the mayor charged. He seemed to, adrenaline seemed to kick in and away he went. The fact is that he just took off like a rocket, like a bull. And I was just simply in the way.

CO: Councillor, can you just describe the scene there today. It's difficult was just watching it on camera. It's just, I guess you're in it. What is going on? There was a very raucous gallery as well. People, spectators were there. Can you just describe what went on today?

PM: I think it's very electric here today. I think it's very emotional. People have been sitting here all day. They want answers. And I think at the end of the day, people really wanted the mayor to do the right thing and step aside. And having not done that, they are determined to set and make sure that counsel does the right thing. I think it's also very very difficult, as you can imagine, for councillors, particularly counselors like me who spent their life defending democracy, to actually say that you've got to push a button that remove the powers, or many of the powers, from a democratically elected mayor.

CH: Toronto City Councillor Pam McConnell, speaking to Carol on "As It Happens" in November 2013. Councillor Pam McConnell died today. She was 71.

[Music]

Fred Perry

CH: Fred Perry makes nice cotton polo shirts. It has since 1952. But in 2017, the company finds itself dealing with a controversy over one group that's adopted those nice cotton polo shirts as a uniform: the "Proud Boys".
The movement of so-called "Western chauvinists" made headlines this week when five members showed up – in black Fred Perry polo shirts – at an Indigenous ceremony in Halifax on Canada Day. And earlier this week, the group's Canadian founder, Gavin McInnis, wore a black Fred Perry polo in a controversial appearance on CBC's Power and Politics.
Mr. McInnis has, among other things, defended Holocaust deniers, called for a Muslim ban, and justified domestic abuse against women. So it's no wonder the chairman of Fred Perry wants nothing to do with him, or his Proud Boys.
Here is company chairman John Flynn's statement to As It Happens in full. Quote: "Frankly, I could send you a press release, but no need. A little investigation into Fred the man and Fred Perry the company would reveal a lot.
Fred was born the son of a socialist MP, became a world tennis champion at a time when tennis was an elitist sport. He started a business with a Jewish businessman from eastern Europe. The brand was adopted by the mod movement and systematically has been associated with a diverse group of subcultures from reggae to punk to Brit pop.
It is a shame that we have to even answer the question.
No, we don't support the ideals or the group that you speak of. It is counter to our beliefs and the people we work with.
That was a statement sent to As It Happens by John Flynn, chairman of Fred Perry. For more on Fred Perry and the Proud Boys, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Christie beach house

Guest: John Wisniewski

CH: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie is learning a tough political lesson: do not deprive New Jerseyans of their summer beach time.
Mr. Christie has been under fire since the weekend, when he was photographed lounging with his family on the public beach outside his official governor's beach home. It happened during a government shutdown – which meant everyone else in the state was banned from public beaches.
Now, Democratic assemblyman John Wisniewski has introduced a bill that would let the public rent out the governor's private beach house. We reached him in Sayreville, New Jersey.

LL: Assemblyman Wisniewski, is this bill just about trying to score some political points or do you really want the public to be able to rent the governor's beach mansion?

JOHN WISNIEWSKI: Well, right now it's a question of whether or not the state of New Jersey really needs to have three individual buildings as a governor's residence. The governor has his official residence at Drumthwacket, and two beach houses, one on the ocean, one on the bay side.
During the height of the shutdown, closed by Governor Christie, he denied access to everybody in the state of New Jersey to Island Beach State Park, where his beach house is located except for himself. That height of arrogance underscores the excess that is represented by the state of New Jersey paying for a private luxury place for the governor to summer at. It’s excess that ought to be changed. The legislation I've sponsored would allow the state to lease it out to a private operator, and open up that luxury beach house to everybody in the state of New Jersey.

LL: How long has that mansion been around and available for the governor's use, or any governor’s use?

JW: Probably since the early 60s. It was a private home before then, when the state began buying up the property that now is Island Beach State Park.

LL: So nobody ever tried to do what you were doing before. It didn't seem to be bothering anybody. Why now?

JW: Well I think it's bothering people now because of what the governor did with it. First of all, why does the state of New Jersey need to provide the governor with a summer vacation home? It's a small state. We already have a governor's official residence in Princeton. The governor wants to go on vacation, he can go anywhere he wants. You know it's not responsibility of the state of New Jersey to provide him with a summer vacation location.

LL: Well how would this work then? Would you want to put the mansion up on Airbnb?

JW: No, the state would probably put out a request for proposals, solicit proposals from operators who would then lease it from the state and they would run it as a restaurant or a BnB or as a banquet facility or a combination of all three.

LL: Let me just go back to this question of the fact that the mansion has been around for a long long time for a governor’s, any governor's exclusive use. Why shouldn't the governor be able to enjoy the beach outside his home even during a shutdown?

JW: The governor can enjoy the beach. We have hundreds of miles of beaches. Just that the taxpayers of the state of New Jersey shouldn't foot the bill for the governor's summer vacation.

LL: Why even have this in the first place? Do you know what the rationale was for creating this nice home for the governor to use on the beach?

JW: Remember it wasn't created for him. It was already a home that the state purchased when they were creating Island Beach State Park.

LL: OK.

JW: So nobody went ahead and constructed this uniquely for the use of the governor. It was a home that wound up being in state property inventory that became available for a governor to use. But it still begs the question: the governor already has a residence at Drumthwacket, the official residence of the New Jersey governor. The governor gets paid a salary. It doesn't seem to be the requirement or the responsibility of the taxpayers of the state of New Jersey to make sure that he's well fitted out for a summer vacation as well.

LL: Have you been to the house?

JW: I've been there once.

LL: What's it like?

JW: I haven't been inside. I was on the exterior back during the previous administration. It's a long beach island home. It's rather large, certainly bigger than most vacation homes on Long Beach Island.

LL: Do you think you might feel differently about this if you or a Democrat was governor?

JW: No. I've long thought that it was excessive for the state to provide the governor with a summer vacation home.

LL: And yet you've only moved on it now?

JW: Well because it became appropriate given the circumstances where the governor was essentially parading around at a facility that only he could utilize. It's in a state park. No one else could get into that state park except for the governor.

LL: Am I correct that you ran for the Democratic nomination for governor this year.

JW: I did.

LL: If you ever got the job and your bill doesn't go through, and the house is still being used the same way, would you keep the beach house, would you use it?

JW: I wouldn't use it. I wouldn't keep it. I would want the Department of Environmental Protection to put out a request for proposals and see what kind of money the state of New Jersey can earn from the beach house. Let's not forget that this is a time in which this state and other states are forced to do more with less. Tax revenues are very dear and it's not easy to come up with new sources of money for the state of New Jersey. This would be an excellent opportunity for the state to provide taxpayers with a perhaps symbolic but a measure of property tax and income tax relief by opening up state resources to earn revenue for state of New Jersey.

LL: For those of us who are outside of New Jersey looking in, this has been a somewhat amusing story, especially with the photographs that were published. But I'm wondering, isn't this beach lounging issue a distraction from the real issues that are facing New Jersey?

JW: Well there's lots of issues that are facing New Jersey and one of them is the arrogance and the abuse of power by government officials. And not better typified by than what Governor Christie did on the beach. I mean he has been a person who has had a double standard. While he's chastised others for ethical behavior, je has himself engaged in unethical behavior, whether it's taking junkets from the owner of the Dallas Cowboys or accepting gifts from the king of Jordan. This governor believes that there's one sets of set of rules for everybody and another set of rules for himself.

LL: Has he had any reaction to your legislation yet?

JW: He hasn't called me.

LL: I'm not surprised and I don’t think you're getting an invitation to the beach house either.

JW: I’m not getting an invitation to anything from him.

LL: Assemblyman, thank you.

JW: You're welcome.

LL: Bye-bye.

JW: Bye-bye.

CH: John Wisniewski is a New Jersey Democratic assemblyman. We reached him in Sayreville New Jersey.

[Music]

Quote/Unquote: Rick Perry

CH: Now, Quote/Unquote.

[Music]

CH: As the old joke goes, if you put ten economists in a room, you'll get eleven opinions. Unless one of those economists is Rick Perry. In which case the other nine will share one opinion – which is that Rick Perry probably doesn't belong in the economist room.
Mr. Perry is many things, including the former governor of Texas and the current U.S. Secretary of Energy. But sometimes, when he speaks, he seems intent on establishing what he isn't.
For example: in an interview last month, he was asked about the causes of climate change – specifically, whether carbon dioxide is the "primary control knob" for the temperature of the planet.
To which he replied, quote, "No. Most likely the primary control knob is the ocean waters and this environment that we live in." Unquote.
In saying that the environment is primarily controlled by the environment, he firmly and indisputably established that he is not a climate scientist. And yesterday, he boldly revealed another thing he is not: an economist.
Yesterday, Rick Perry visited a coal-fired power plant in West Virginia. And according to energy reporter Taylor Kuykendall, Mr. Perry said the following. Quote: "Here's a little economics lesson: supply and demand. You put the supply out there, and the demand will follow." Unquote.
We have calls out to the makers of New Coke and Crystal Pepsi about Mr. Perry's remark, but we haven't heard back.

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July 7, 2017 episode transcript

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