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The Current Transcript for July 5, 2017

Host: Mike Finnerty

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

I am not going to lecture other countries what they should do nor will I... My position is determined by anyone outside of Canada.

MIKE FINNERTY: Canada’s delicate new place in the world. U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to leave the Paris Climate Accord is pulling Justin Trudeau closer to Europe. And they're also our new partners in a free trade deal Canada hopes will soon go into effect. But this week President Trump tweeted that Justin Trudeau was his new found friend and that's a status Canada wants to keep as delicate NAFTA negotiations get underway. Coming up Canada's prime minister put the diplomatic test at this week's G-20 meeting in Hamburg. Also today, the shattered illusions of a young South African comic.

SOUNDCLIP

When I came to the U.S. I was like Who am I to comment on a system that is far superior. Who am I it's who comment on a world where politicians are impeccable in all decisions they make.

MF: Daily Show host Trevor Noah on his new life in the United States after growing up the product of an illegal mixed race union in South Africa. I'm Mike Finnerty. Welcome to the summer edition of The Current.

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Trudeau 'in middle' between Merkel and Trump at G20 summit

Guests: John Nichols, Marcel Dirsus, Thomas Bernes

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[Sound: Applaud]

The times when we could completely count on others are to a certain extent over. I have experienced this in the last few days and that is why I can only say that we Europeans must really take our fate into our own hands. Of course in friendship with the United States of America, of course in friendship with Great Britain and as good neighbors wherever that is possible with Russia and with other countries. But we have to know that we must fight for our own future for our destiny as Europeans. And that's what I want to do together with you.

MF: My German Chancellor Angela Merkel speaking at an election rally in May. Not too long ago it would have been almost unthinkable for a German leader to utter words such as those. But the world looks very different in 2017. And as relations sour between the United States and Germany, today China's Xi Jinping is in Berlin to open a panda garden with two new Chinese bears. Shifting currents they will be on full display when the G-20 meeting gets started later this week in Hamburg and with Angela Merkel needing to keep her distance from a man hugely unpopular in Germany, Donald Trump. Well that leaves Justin Trudeau caught in the middle. We have three observers standing by from both sides of the Atlantic for their thoughts. John Nichols is the national affairs correspondent for The Nation magazine. He's in Madison, Wisconsin. Marcel Dirsus is a lecturer in political science at the University of Keele and he's in Kiel in Germany. And Tom Bernes is a distinguished fellow at the Center for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, Ontario. He's in Hamburg already. Hello to all of you.

GUESTS: Hello. Hi. Hello.

MF: Marcel, if I could start with you we just heard Angela Merkel there speaking. Not long after the G-7 meetin,g being pretty frank about her views on relations with the United States for instance and with those remarks in mind. What are her goals heading into this meeting?

MARCEL DIRSUS: These are going to be very difficult days for Angela Merkel because Germany needs the international order. We need a rules based order in order to succeed as a trading nation. So we do need the United States because the United States underpins that international order. But at the same time you have somebody in the White House who is hugely unpredictable and quite worrying. So I think that the best that she can hope for is to have some consensus on at least some issues even if she can't get it on everything.

MF: You used to be able to count on the United States to lead in areas of trade but that's not the case, is it?

MARCEL DIRSUS: No it isn't the case. And you've seen Donald Trump repeatedly making remarks to you know German trade practices and saying that Germany in particular was you know treating the United States unfairly and so forth. And this is something that has been worrying to Germany beyond just Germany because obviously we like to trade with the world. You know we export a lot and we now see that system threatened by the very power that used to support it.

MF: So what's your read of the visit by President Xi to Germany today in the lead up to the big G-20 meeting and the panda diplomacy but it's more than that, isn't it? How much deeper does it go?

MARCEL DIRSUS:I think Xi is essentially trying to fill this vacuum of power. I think he's trying to position himself as a sane political leader that you can count on who will do what he says and who is predictable. So he's trying to make a play in order to increase China's influence and Europe.

MF: Moving into the place or part of the place that the United States used to take up?

MARCEL DIRSUS: Definitely. And you know I don't want to be melodramatic about it. The United States is still hugely important and the United States will be hugely important. China is quite clearly increasing its influence.

MF: John Nichols, in the United States the German and the German chancellor has basically said you can't rely on the United States anymore. Did that resonate with the Trump administration when she said it?

JOHN NICHOLS: Did it resonate with the Trump administration itself? Probably a little. Remember. The Trump administration is not an individual. President of the United States has hundreds of counselors and advisors and Donald Trump who didn't know much about government has brought in an almost, and I use the word not casually, almost bizarre array of people. So there are certainly people within his administration who absolutely understand that a breaking or a weakening of relations with our traditional partners is a problem. At the same time he has other aides and advisers who really are passionate about a vision of a new world order that doesn't follow traditional trade rules. And frankly traditional rules of partnership. And so I think there are internal struggles. The real question is Trump himself. And my sense is that Trump loves the pomp and circumstance of these events much more than I think people recognize and so this coming week becomes very very important. He has just announced that he will go to France and meet with Macron Bastille day apparently. And so he's sending some signals that he wants to develop relations to do a little better. The real challenge, and you focused on it in the opening of this segment, is what will that relationship with Merkel be. Because she really is the key figure in all this. Yeah it is going to be very tough.

MF: Why does Donald Trump seem to dislike Angela Merkel to the point of refusing to shake her hand and some pretty high profile scoldings?

JOHN NICHOLS: Well that's a great question. And first off, it's important to understand that he doesn't know her, period. I mean he really is unfamiliar with her and I think he's unfamiliar with her, again and I'm not a total fan of Angela Merkel. Many places I criticize her but her stabilizing influence in Europe and the world I don't think he fully understands how important she is. So that's an underpinning of it. But then the dislike of her frankly... Look Donald Trump and his closest aides, and it's important I understand Steve Bannon, who I think Canadians are familiar with, his political adviser very very nationalist figure. They don't like the German model. They don't like the idea of a country like Germany having the role that it does now. I'm not saying that's the whole of the administration but certainly some folks within it. And I think in many ways folks like Bannan, and to some extent trump, see Merkel as the barrier to their plans to make the United States a major player in the world. But in a world that is disrupted in all sorts of ways.

MF: Tom Bernes for Justin Trudeau. How surprised were you by the new found friend reference this week that Donald Trump made on Canada Day?

TOM BERNES: Well that was surprising language that we hadn't heard before. But it seems to change month by month. And so we'll have to see whether that extends through to this week.

MF: I mean he needs to have strong relations with both Donald Trump and Angela Merkel What's the best way to go about that for JustinTrudeau?

TOM BERNES: Well I think that's absolutely right. Obviously the economic relationship between the United States and Canada as it is fundamental and therefore he has to maintain that. But at the same time the Prime Minister's also indicated his concern on these global issues and his desire to make progress, obviously the relationship with Europe in part because of the huge trade agreement which he wants to promote is important but also looking towards Asia. So he's going to find himself in the middle in some senses with others looking to him in terms of how to manage a relationship. And likewise he's going to have to try and maintain a balance between the U.S. on one side and these other players on the other side and just see whether you know, I think we should be under no illusions that Trump is not going to change his mind on environmental issues or on the trade issues. And so the question is can they find some midway house that prevents a big flare up and potentially a trade war? And can the Prime Minister help in finding that?

MF: And that's what I want to ask you about, his strategy. I mean when you're caught in the middle there are really two approaches you could sort of fade back a little bit and let things play out or you could be you know really active go between. What indications do you have of what strategy Justin Trudeau will take?

TOM BERNES: Initially I think he will sit back in and see how things play out. Now let's remember there are only about four or five hours of active discussion between leaders at this meeting and you know the rest is the pomp and circumstance and we're not even sure where those discussions are going to focus. We know that the issues that are in the air. But for instance the test by North Korea yesterday could totally change the dynamic and the focus of discussions. And that might be a vehicle by which in fact this group could unite in a message and put the trade issues to the side. So I think one has to see how the dynamic of the media is going to play out. One has to see how the dynamic of the individuals are going to play out. I don't expect Trump to be isolated at the meeting. Obviously his newfound friends in Saudi Arabia, who I don't think he knew more than Merkel, are unlikely to leave him exposed. You know the question of the dynamic between Trump and Putin is clearly up in the air. Prime Minister May of the UK is going to be in an equally difficult position between how does she bridge between Europe where she's in a big battle now and between Trump where she needs that support. So I think Trudeau is not alone. But I think there may be more eyes on him as you see there's more progressive in terms of the international agenda.

KF: Marcel Dirsus in Germany there is an election coming up in your country. How important are domestic political things for the meeting, and how do the German people view Donald Trump?

MARCEL DIRSUS: I think it's very important. It's actually part of what makes this so difficult for Merkel because you know Merkel is part of the CDU which is the center right Party in Germany. So there's the political body that is traditionally more friendly towards the United States. But at the same time, twenty one percent of Germans now consider the United States to be a trustworthy or reliable partner in international affairs, which is the same value that Russia has. So for pure domestic consumption she needs to put some distance between herself and Donald Trump. But at the same time she knows that Germany is to a large extent dependent on the United States to solve global issues.

MF: Well and her campaign literature this week dropped the word friend from a reference to the United States. What do the German people expect? I mean they also want her… I think you said this before they also want her to be a good world leader, but do they want her to rebuff him?

MARCEL DIRSUS: I mean Angela Merkel is in many ways the very opposite of Donald Trump. She's very calculating she's very analytical. She's very calm. So she's not going to you know go around and insult him. She is going to try to seek compromise wherever it's possible, to get some sort of positive outcome that she can sell at home. But at the same time she's not going to kowtow to Donald Trump. So it will be no insults. You know, she won't do anything rash but it will be visible that she's not on the same page as him, on trade, on climate change.

MF: John Nichols, has the White House figured out what exactly its agenda is going into the meeting?

JOHN NICHOLS: Of course. I mean, look. They certainly know what they want. But if you've been… I was in Germany last week and looking at and seeing the plans for protests and all the issues that are in play. And so, this will be a lot of moving parts. And historically when the United States went to an event like this it had an agenda. It had a specific set of plans. It knew what it was, as a country and the president's going . They knew what they were up against. They knew what pieces they needed to move. Many of those pieces had already been moved before the meeting began. In this case we see a tremendous amount of evidence that the United States is sort of developing its plans as things go along. This announcement of the meeting in France with Macron on Bastille Day, coming after the G-20; that's a whole new signal. Now if that's where the White House is going, this is going to be a diplomacy initiative where the presidents really going to try and get along with folks. That's one thing or the same time…

MF: I was just [unintelligible] he just wants to be filmed with the attractive young president of France in front of that kind of impressive parade because it makes good optics.

JOHN NICHOLS: Right. Or do they want to shake hands for even longer this next time that they meet. But the reason I bring that up is that certainly shows one side of this thing; Trump the guy who wants to be successful. At the same time, think about the things that he is going to try and bring into play here. Something as regards North Korea that makes the Chinese very very important in all of this. Something about trade as you folks have referenced that makes you know all the developments in Europe very very important, especially things going on with Theresa May in Great Britain. Something about relations, and we haven't even discussed this, relations with Russia because he's going to be with Putin. And I hate to tell you about how American consumption of all this is going to be, but that meeting with Putin is going to be or whatever, you know even if it's a glancing you know, passing by one another, is going to be central to U.S. media coverage. And so Trump has to manage that. His people have to figure out how to deal with all that. My bottom line is I think they have many many agendas. But the notion that they have a traditional agenda of a President Obama or a President Bush going into a meeting like this, I just don't think so. And I think his aides especially are going to be very very concerned about this push and pull with Donald Trump. Does he know really launch a diplomatic initiative, try to get along with folks, try to work with folks one day and then the next day - and remember that a lot of his schedule is still quite ill-defined here - and then the next day do something or say something that, as with his previous visit to Europe, sort of blows everything up.

MF: Tom Burns, putting aside for a moment, Prime Minister Trudeau's balancing act between Europe and America, what is on Canada's agenda what does he want to accomplish?

TOM BERNES: I think there are three key issues. The first is trade and promoting trades of realization. And that's what makes that balancing act so difficult. The second is of environmental concerns and building support for further action including the blue economy doing something more for the world oceans. Gender equality is perhaps the third issue where clearly the government has signaled. They would like to see some action. So I think that's where you'll find his priorities. But obviously two of them at least he's in a delicate position vis a vis the U.S. and that's where I think the balance comes out. In some ways this meeting, it's not a question of can they make a lot of progress. The question is can they hold the agreement that they currently have. As we saw at the G-7 meeting, the U.S. stepped aside on the environment. And if that’s where they want to go on the environment and trade in a respectful way that can be an acceptable outcome. You know it takes two to tango and it takes two to fight. As the previous speaker just said it really will depend on what the reaction of Trump is. And if he is responsible that's one thing if he gets belligerent. You have a very different outcome.

MF: Can I get a quick 30 seconds from each of you on what you think would constitute failure of this meeting? That also includes players, for instance like Saudi Arabia, and I'll start with you John Nichols.

JOHN NICHOLS: Sure. Obviously failure at the meeting would be, again I am I don't want to be too U.S. centric here and keep coming back to Trump, but a failure would be a situation where Trump clearly went odds with the G-20 and sent a signal that perhaps even he didn't think this was necessary any longer, and pushed what is an internal theory within some of his administration that U.S. relations should be bilateral not multilateral. If something like that happened, it would be quite a crisis.

MF: Marcel Dirsus, what does failure look like to Germany?

MARCEL DIRSUS: I think from a German perspective the first thing is that the summit itself has to go well. So you know we expect about 100000 people to go out and protest some of those will be violent. So that goes well. And if Donald Trump does not stand up to Vladimir Putin in his bilateral and gives him things without getting anything in return, I think that will be very very worrying Germany.

MF: And John Nichols, for Justin Trudeau who gets a lot of the spotlight these days, what's failure?

JOHN NICHOLS: I think you mentioned me but I think you're looking for Mr. Bernes.

MF: Sorry, sorry. Tom Bernes, yes.

TOM BERENS: Well no I think it is the blow up of the G-20. If the if things go very wrong, the G-20 loses its role in the world a role which is very important for Canada as a forum by which we can help to shape multilateral policy. So I think that is the worst case by far.

MF: All three of you thank you very much. Tom Bernes indeed there at the end, John Nichols and Marcel Dirsus. Tom whose distinguished fellow at the Center For International Governance Innovation In Waterloo. He was in Hamburg. Tom Nichols, national affairs correspondent for The Nation magazine in Madison, Wisconsin and Marcel Dirsus lecturer in political science at the University of Kiel. He was in Germany and Kiel. The CBC News is next and then the host of The Daily Show on his South African roots. Trevor Noah explains why his childhood was illegal and how it made him the person he is today. I'm Mike Finnerty. You're listening the summer edition of The Current.

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ENCORE | Trevor Noah on growing up mixed race in South Africa, 'a product of my parents' crime'

Guest: Trevor Noah

MF: Hello I'm Mike Finnerty and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MF: Up next, when comedy takes root in a tragic situation. Trevor Noah looks back on his apartheid era childhood.

SOUNDCLIP

Jacob Zuma was supposed to be the craziest president South Africa ever had. It was the only reason I voted for him. It was just madness. I look at him. He’s come in and he wears a tie and suit. He’s stopped singing. He’s got a cabinet that looks like they know what they’re doing. He’s going to fight corruption. And he even fired Manto Tshabalala-Msimang.

[Sound: Crowd cheering and whistling]

I was expecting a madman. A crazy guy. Someone who was just going to throw the country away. And look who I got? Someone who’s actually doing their job. I can’t believe it. Once again, the ANC has failed to deliver.

[Sound: Crowd laughing]

MF: Back in 2009 when the set of The Daily Show was still years away. And that's a stand up comic Trevor Noah was taking shots at Jacob Zuma the president of his native South Africa. Today he's more likely to have Donald Trump in his crosshairs but the comedy is as biting as ever. As the host of TV's Daily Show since 2015, Trevor Noah has become a familiar face in North America. It's only recently that we've learned more about the reality of his upbringing and the prejudice he overcame growing up in the apartheid era. In December Trevor Noah sat down with Anna Maria to discuss his new book Born a Crime.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Did your comedy always have that political edge to it?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, you know what’s strange? I completely forgot about this clip. It's so funny that you played it and I remember this and I go wow, I never thought of myself as somebody who would be talking about people's cabinets and their appointments. But the honest truth is, I guess I have been a person who has been immersed and interested by politics for a lot longer than I would like to believe. And that's because in South Africa, politics and pop culture have been interlocked for so long that you don't see it as being a political person. You know it's not dissimilar to what's happening now in the US. Now, conversations about Trump and appointments and cabinet members and secretaries of state—these have become common parlance everywhere in the streets and there was once a time when politics was seen as an elite conversation to be having. So in essence, I guess this has always been my world.

AMT: Well, so did you ever think American politics would parallel or match then, what you left in South Africa?

TREVOR NOAH: Not at all. Not at all. I think I always suffered the illusion that American politics was far removed and far superior to the world I had come from. You know the glossy image that you are shown of America when you live in South Africa—many third world countries for that fact—is one that just seems to be beyond reproach. And so when I came to the US, I was like who am I to comment on a system that is far superior? Who am I to comment on a world where politicians are impeccable in all decisions they make? And then I came to realize once you get into it, it's like most places in the world— politicians be politicking and there's always cracks in the facade.

AMT: Just the other day you did an interview with a conservative pundit by the name of Tomi Lahren. Am I saying her name right?

TREVOR NOAH: You're saying it correctly.

AMT: She has called Black Lives Matter the new KKK. We're going to play just a short clip from that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

TOMI LAHREN: It's controversial but I think there are some things that need to be said. When the Black Lives Matter movement is going out with signs saying “Fry ‘em like bacon, F the police,” when they're going out saying if you see a white person, target them. That is happening, Trevor. That happened in Milwaukee not too long ago. That is happening. So when that now becomes the narrative and you're starting to loot, burn and riot, what did the KKK do?

TREVOR NOAH: That is not—look, we'll go around in circles. Did you say what did the KKK do?

[Sound: Crowd yelling]

TOMI LAHREN: No. What did they do? When you’re saying—listen. Listen. Trevor.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow.

TOMI LAHREN: Trevor.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow.

AMT: Trevor Noah, your pushback in that whole conversation received a lot of very positive coverage in the United States. Why do you think that is?

TREVOR NOAH: I think there are a combination of factors. I can’t speak to all of them because I don't know what everyone's mind was processing when they were watching that. I do know maybe one of the biggest was one of the biggest reasons I did it and that was that we have been told post the Donald Trump election victory, that there is a world that as a progressive or as a liberal or as a coastal dweller, you're not acknowledging that there is a bubble that has been unheard. And so then I set out and I said to myself well then, let's hear this world. I was always aware of this world. I never thought of myself as somebody who is unaware of these arguments or these positions. But I think for a lot of people, the space where people argue ideas versus personalities has become one that has diminished throughout the campaign in America. Something that I didn't even really realize until this interview and that was if you look at Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, a lot more time was spent it feels—it feels like a lot more time was spent on personalities. Hillary is a nasty woman. Donald Trump is a bad man. He has a vulgar personality. Hillary is deceitful. She is a crooked person. As opposed to: this is my policy, these are this person's policies, this is what I believe in, this is what I think they will do, this is why my ideas are better for America. It feels like less time was spent on that. And you know there were varying factors around it but maybe one of the things that connected with people was the fact that I was not fighting with a human being about their very existence but rather about the way they feel about things and views that they hold. And my guest on the show was doing the same to me.

AMT: You were born during apartheid. You know what institutional racism is. What do you think of the fear some people have that Donald Trump has unleashed a suppressed bigotry that will damage American Civil Liberties and create a sort of police state?

TREVOR NOAH: I think to a certain extent, a lot of those fears are founded in an idea that hasn't been created out of thin air. When you think about it, if you take Donald Trump at his word, then Donald Trump is a person who will creates a deportation force that will deport 11 million undocumented immigrants in America. Donald Trump will build a wall to separate the United States and Mexico. Donald Trump will bring back stop and frisk, which has been shown in many ways to particularly target and negatively affect black communities and most importantly—and one of the most frightening—is to be an arbiter of justice with his law and order campaign. And America right now is still dealing. Walter Scott's jury said that they don't think they could reach a verdict on a case that you would think would be open and shut: a man being shot in the back posing no danger to a police officer caught on tape. And yet even in a situation that seems as obvious as that, the law seems to swing one way and this was during a time when Barack Obama's government and the federal oversights of Justice Departments was at its highest. With Donald Trump's appointments, people like Jeff Sessions for instance, a man who has been shown repeatedly to you know favour the striking down of voting rights to support police departments at all costs, that is a very worrying place to be in because you realize that America could take many steps backward in truly finding a place where justice is equally accessible for all of its citizens.

AMT: It's worrying.

TREVOR NOAH: It really is.

AMT: I want to talk about you. Your childhood in South Africa wasn't very funny. Your new book begins with a dramatic story of you being thrown out of a moving car as a child. What happened?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, what happened was my mother and I found ourselves on the wrong streets at the wrong time and we got into the wrong taxi. And my mother and the taxi driver had an altercation and you know the taxi driver felt he needed to teach my mother a lesson and so he threatened to kill her and myself. And unfortunately at the time, we were living in a country where that was a distinct possibility. This wasn't hyperbole. This wasn't an issue where you know we could dismiss it as a non-threat and you know my mom did what she had to do on the day and that was throw me and herself out of a moving car to get us out of that situation. And what is funny is what you say, there's nothing funny about any of these stories, but my mother and I existed in a world where comedy was almost the foundation of all of our experiences. Comedy was the filter through which everything that happened in our lives was put through. And so essentially nothing is funny but I find comedy makes it a lot easier to process things that are happening to you than a stern outlook.

AMT: Tell us about your mother.

TREVOR NOAH: Wow. Where do I start? My mother is a South African Xhosa woman. Beautiful both inside and out. Not perfect but genuinely the most amazing person I've ever had the privilege of knowing, you know? She grew up in a world where she had to fend for herself. She experienced the most extreme forms of poverty and yet through it all, consistently and stubbornly strived to achieve more than she was told she could. And I'm a product of that powerful woman. I'm a product of a woman who lived in a country where being black and being a woman was the lowest form of human being you could be. I'm the product of a woman who despite what she was told, sought out employment that was reserved for white people. I’m the product of a woman who raised a child on her own in a society that said marriage came before everything. So I am a product of someone who is truly amazing.

AMT: Where did she get the courage to be so independent and free spirited at a time of such oppression?

TREVOR NOAH: I genuinely don't know and I don't think my mother possesses the answer. Now that my mother, you know once my mother became religious, she will credit it all to God. And you know I cannot judge or question her because I cannot see a direct correlation between anything else in her life and how my mother turned out. So if my mother chooses to give credit to the divine, then who am I to dispute that?

AMT: Tell us about the relationship between her and your father.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, my mom and dad had a wonderful relationship. It was an illegal relationship because during apartheid, interacting or you know any form of interracial meet ups were illegal, especially those of a romantic kind. And that's what my mother did. My mother refused to—you know my mother refused to buckle under the pressure of the government. My mother refused to accept laws that she did not believe in that were oppressive and so they said that you could not be with a white man and my mother said well, that's exactly what I'll do then. And that was really the theme of my mother's life. If you told her she could not do something, then she would set out to do the very thing that you said she could not.

AMT: And as you say, your very birth in South Africa was a crime.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. Which was a—I was a product of my parents’ crime. I was a product of them disobeying the law. And there were prices that we paid for that. But at the same time, I feel like the rewards have far outweighed those and that's thankfully you know partly due to circumstances because the country changed so much.

AMT: Your mother never wanted a full time relationship with your father. She never wanted to marry him.

TREVOR NOAH: No, she did not. No.

AMT: But he wanted to be part of your life.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah. I was lucky my dad chose me. You know? My mother never ever wanted to burden a man with me. My mother wanted a child. She did not believe that she needed to now be involved with somebody for the rest of their lives if she didn't want to be involved with that person. And so at the time when she made the decision, my mother said to my father hey, I would like you to help me make this child. Her very literal words were: I don't want you to be a father. I just need your sperm. And you know and so my father obliged and luckily for me, he chose to be a part of my life. And so even through the toughest times, he still made an effort to be a part of my life as much as the laws at the time would allow.

AMT: Your father's German-Swiss, correct?

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. That's correct.

AMT: And so given that your very existence was proof of the “crime,” what kind of relationship did you have to have with your father and mother in public?

TREVOR NOAH: Well, it was one that I didn't think was strange at all. My dad could never be seen with us in public. My mom and I had to maintain the facade of her being my caretaker. You know my maid, my nanny. She wouldn't try and be seen as my mother in public.

AMT: Because your skin is lighter than hers.

TREVOR NOAH: Exactly. And so because of how meticulous apartheid was, it wasn't just a black-white system. It was a system where black people existed and white people and then if there was a person who had a skin tone that was between that, they were called coloured. And then there was Indian. And every single group was given a different you know area to live in, a different access to basic human rights. And so very you know fundamentally, myself, my mother and my dad were considered three different types of citizens under the law.

AMT: So you couldn't even go outside and play with your cousins in public.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, I could but my grandmother was always afraid that that would draw the attention of the police and half of the time my grandmother was hiding me. So when I was very young, that was something my grandmother was constantly wary of—was that the police would stumble upon me and see me as a child of a race that shouldn't exist in the area that I existed in.

AMT: And then what would they have done?

TREVOR NOAH: They would have taken me to an orphanage probably and then found a way to get me to a family that matched my skin tone—which sounds ridiculous but I mean this is a story that we've seen all over the world. It wasn't just South Africa. I mean Australia had similar laws you know with their native population, Aboriginals, at the time. You know they said that if any Aboriginal had a child, that child could be taken away and given to any white family in Australia. And so South Africa, it's no mistake that South Africa went to Australia—one of the many countries they went to to study different forms of segregation, oppression and racism.

AMT: Remind us what year you were born in.

TREVOR NOAH: I was born in 1984.

AMT: Seems like too recent for that, huh?

TREVOR NOAH: It genuinely does.

AMT: It’s just a reminder of how long the apartheid system. And you call it aparthate.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: For a reason. Yeah.

TREVOR NOAH: I believe one of the biggest successes of aparthate, one of the biggest successes of that world, wasn't just segregation and oppression. It was separating people, convincing people that they are different. And that is one of the easiest ways to control human beings, is to convince them that they are different—even black people by the way—and separate them into groups that now spend more time trying to fight each other than realizing that they all share a common goal.

AMT: You have a white father and a black mother. You identify as black. What was it that made you want to identify as black?

TREVOR NOAH: It was nothing that made me want to identify. It was realization. You grow up in a world not thinking of it as a world of colour. I grew up in a black family. I grew up with a black grandmother. I grew up you know living and speaking African languages, eating African food. In my life there was no other option. There was no other world. I would venture into my father's world and get a glimpse of another world. But I never was under the illusion that that was my world. And so what happened is over time and that happens when you grow up and especially when the country changed, the effects of segregation do not go away overnight. You know. That's what a lot of people don't seem to understand. Just because you turn off the tap of oppression doesn't mean that the water doesn't remain. And so now, I was growing up in a country where black and white people and Indian people and coloured people have been separated for so long that that was the only way they knew how to exist. So you can imagine now I go to a school where they say well, everyone can mix the way they see fit. And I look in the school yard and everyone is in the pockets that the government has designed them to be in. The white kids are in one corner, the black kids are in another corner. And you see that in America as well. You go to American schools, especially universities, and I'd be shocked when I'd walk around and you'd see how in many universities, the people have segregated themselves into their groups. You know it's an effect that lasts for a very long time.

AMT: And so, even your grandmother saw you differently. She was afraid to punish you with the same kind of whooping she'd give your cousins. What did she tell your mom?

TREVOR NOAH: My mom believed that I was—and she was correct—I was a terror as a child. So my mom believed that you know my behind shouldn't be devoid of a spanking if my behaviour warranted it. And my grandmother was often the person who was charged with disciplining the children because you know parents would be away working. But my grandmother could not hit me. She could not lay a hand on me because fundamentally she believed what she had been taught and that was that I was this little “white child” who was subject to a different punishment. She was afraid of my skin. She’d see when my mom would hit me and she'd say to my mom, she'd be like I don't know what to do. She says his skin, it becomes blue and green and red and yellow. She says ooh, I can’t hit that child. I can’t hit that child. And my mom would laugh and say no, you must hit him and my grandma would say no, no, no, I don't want to go to jail. Don't involve me in these things. And so my gran, my own grandmother—who loves me dearly to this day—you know would just never, never, never, never venture into that world.

AMT: And she would tell your mother when she spanked your cousins, they stayed black.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. Yeah. That's what my gran said. She said I understand. She would say to me ooh, I understand black children. You hit them, it’s the same. They stay the same. She says no, no, no. Your child is—mm mm, I can't do that.

AMT: There's another story that speaks to how people see people when it comes to race. Tell us the story of your friend Teddy and the day the two of you were chased by the security guards in the mall.

TREVOR NOAH: Well, I was a really, really naughty child. You know? It's funny how many people have said to me they bought my book and then read it and then bought another copy for their moms just so that their moms would appreciate them more. [laughs]

AMT: Because you were a hellion.

TREVOR NOAH: I was the definition of a delinquent. I was uncontrollable and I had a penchant for shoplifting. You could not stop me from doing it. I grew up very poor and I very early on learned that a lot of the things that I didn't have access to I could make accessible to myself. And so I had a friend growing up in the early years of high school and his name was Teddy. And Teddy and I would spend weekends together and sometimes would go to the mall and that's what we'd do. We would shoplift and most of the time it was food items. You know? It was very seldom something else but it would be food. And one day we were caught shoplifting but we made our escape and Teddy got caught, I didn't. And the police, when going to the neighbouring schools trying to find the perpetrators that existed on the CCTV tape, couldn't identify me because they were looking for a white kid because on a black and white camera feed, they couldn't tell that my race was not what they were looking for. Black and white camera can only see black or white. So then what do you do? You know as a black and white camera, what happens when there is someone who is half black and half white?

AMT: Because Teddy had told them—wouldn't tell them who he was with.

TREVOR NOAH: Yeah.

AMT: He absolutely refused to turn you in.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes.

AMT: And they actually showed you the footage and you knew that was you.

TREVOR NOAH: I did.

AMT: And they were looking at you, looking at the footage and they demanded that you tell them who that white boy who hung out with Teddy was.

TREVOR NOAH: Which is insane, isn't it? But that's where you realize how powerful the construct of race is. It's something that doesn't exist and yet it is something that we believe in.

AMT: I didn't know until I read your book that under apartheid in South Africa, people would apply to, as you say, be promoted to white.

TREVOR NOAH: Yes. That was always an option in South Africa. You could—full intents and purposes—be promoted or demoted in terms of your racial classification. So a white person who became a little bit too dark or whose hair became a little too curly could be pulled into question and people could say that you are secretly what was termed a coloured person. My skin complexion. And then if that happened, they would conduct what they called the pencil test and they would put a pencil in your hair and if the pencil fell out, you were white and if the pencil stayed in your hair, then you are now coloured and that meant you weren't allowed to live in the white area. You couldn't work in the job that you were working in that was reserved for whites. You all of a sudden had your life—and this would happen to families—this would happen where siblings were separated by the law. And the inverse could happen as well. You know because one of the keys of oppression is to convince a select few that they deserve to be exempt from that oppression, that they are beyond reproach or if they conduct themselves a certain way, then they will be removed from that place. And so that's what would happen. So people would aspire to be White.

AMT: So you're a guy who came from a poor background, discriminated against, lonely kid. You grew up surrounded by, subjected to violence. Now you’re this famous guy, successful comedian, television host. Is there a message you hope people can learn from your story?

TREVOR NOAH: Wow. Is there a message? I guess the only lesson I really wish people would learn is one that my mom taught me and I continue to try and learn as I experience and live life: try to be more than you think you can be. Try to do more than you think you can do. Try and exist in a space that is always slightly uncomfortable because that is truly where you'll find your growth. And really, that's what I learned from my mom. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her. And her goal has always been to put our family in a place where each generation has more opportunities than the next.

AMT: Well, your book is wonderful. You not only make me laugh, your book, you make me cry and you make me think. So thank you.

TREVOR NOAH: Thank you so much and thank you for having me.

MF: Anna Maria’s interview with the host of The Daily Show Trevor Noah. His new book is called Born a Crime. He was in Toronto in December. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1 for the summer show New fire with Lisa Charleyboy. This week, meet Indigenous youth who have no choice but to leave home for high school and hear how they're staying connected to where they're from. And remember you can always take the current with you wherever you go. On the CBC radio app. Listen to the day's top stories. Make your own playlist of your favorite stuff to listen to later. It's free. I'm Mike Finnerty. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

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July 5, 2017 Full Episode Transcript

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