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The AIH Transcript for June 6, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

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CO: Airing on the side of a caution. When a counter extremism group told British police about Khuram Butt last year, he was let off with a warning. But this past Saturday, he led the deadly London Bridge attack.

JD: Geopolitics abhors a vacuum. The Canadian government says that it will step up as a world leader as the United States steps back. And Barack Obama's former ambassador to Ottawa says that's a step in the right direction.

CO: Springing a leaker. A source who shared classified NSA documents with The Intercept is facing criminal charges. The site itself is facing criticism for failing to protect her.

JD: Corbyn his enthusiasm. With the U.K. election imminent everyone is calling everyone else soft on terrorism. But our guest, a Labor Party candidate, gives us the hard sell on the toughness of his party's leader.

CO: Tanks in advance. Before leaving for Normandy, Canadian soldiers buried some of their tanks in England. And, now, an expert has helped unearth one from what is now a vineyard.

JD: And… charity begins at former home. A homeless man gives ten-thousand dollars from his residential school settlement to save an outreach program at a shelter in Thunder Bay, Ontario where he once lived. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses that is a present for the past and the future.

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Part 1: London attack update, NSA leaks, shelter donation

London attack update

Guest: Haras Rafiq

JD: We are beginning to learn more about the three assailants involved in this weekend's terrorist attack in London England. But to some people, the information being released by British authorities is not news. On Saturday night, of course police say the assailants drove a rented van into a crowd of pedestrians on the London Bridge, and then used knives to attack people in nearby Borough Market. All three assailants were shot and killed by police. Authorities have named 27-year-old Khuram Butt as the ringleader of the attack Mr. Butt was born in Pakistan but raised in Britain. He was one of an estimated three-thousand people in the UK under surveillance for jihadist activity. And one of the people who sounded the alarm on Mr. Butt before Saturday's attack was Haras Rafiq. Mr. Rafiq is the CEO of Quilliam, a counter extremism think tank in the UK. And we reached him in Manchester.

CO: Mr. Rafiq, how did you react to learn that Khuram Butt was named as one of the attackers of Saturday's London Bridge attack?

HARAS RAFIQ: Alarm bells set off within my mind and within the rest of my staff in that we've heard that name before. And yesterday, we started a round robin of photographs of an incident that had happened July last year and that's when we needed to get to the bottom of what had happened? Why this guy wasn't picked up last July?

CO: Last July this is an event of Eid al-Fitr, a family event. And it was a member of your organization that had the encounter with him. Can you describe what occurred?

HF: Sure. A man who himself in the 80s was a jihadist but now he's one of the country's leading de-radicalization experts who actually helps to de-radicalize jihadist was celebrating Eid with his family, his elderly parents, his children and they went to a funfair like a fairground of attractions in a field in east London. This one particular chap, who happened to be Khuram Butt, was looking at him quite aggressively. So Dr. Hassan greeted him with the Muslim greeting of peace and he refused to reply and then started verbally — initially verbally assaulting him — saying I recognize you you're from Quilliam. You're the government-funded stooges. You're the people to do this. You are the people that do that, et cetera, et cetera. And then physically went for him and attacked him. A scuffle broke out and there were lots of people there. The people intervened and stopped discovery carried on with the abuse then got away from the people that were holding him and went for Dr. Hassan again, which left Dr. Hassan’s child, his wife and his parents shaken and they decided that they would leave the event not sort of wishing to put his family in any further harm's way.

CO: People recalled something had happened, you looked this up, you remembered what had occurred. But since you have remembered your own experiences or Quilliam's experiences what else have you learned about the activities of Mr. Butt that should have maybe put him on the radar of police?

HF: What happened was Khuram Butt took part in a mainstream national TV documentary called “The Jihadis Next Door” about a year-and-a-half ago. You know these guys were very extreme calling for Sharia law, calling for registering, supporting ISIS, etc. We knew of them and the police counterterrorism division knew them as well. What Dr. Hassan did was he called me straight away after the incident and i said reported to the police. So he did. And then I said when you come back into the office, we’ll report it together to the counterterrorism division and we did that as well. The counterterrorism division had heard of him before and said that they knew about him, but the police hadn't. And we left it to the police to carry on with their inquiries and try to bring this particular person, Khuram Butt, to justice. Yesterday, when we saw the photograph and we confirmed that it was him, we found out from the police that it took the police six months to catch him. They couldn't find him. He was lost for six months and they didn't know where he was. And then when he was found, he was arrested and given a caution. Our security services do a great job. They've protected us since 7-7 very well. They've stopped 13 Manchester-style attacks in the last few years. They're under resourced. They can't keep up with every single person who's not deemed to be a high risk at that moment in time. And because of the lack of resources, the others slip through the net. When we told them that this guy is violent, he's an extremist and he is a problem for our society. He may become a terrorist then they should have prioritized him a lot higher. He may have been in jail and he may not have carried out the London attacks now.

CO: There were also numbers of complaints from the public, people who have said that he was trying to recruit children in parks. He was he was approaching young boys and trying to lure them into to an organization of jihadism. He was banned from mosques. He was taking on people. So how is it that all of this didn't amount to enough for police to have him high on their radar?

HF: I think that… I mean I know for sure that our agencies they are under resourced. The number of people that they have to monitor who are deemed of high risk in this country somewhere in the region of 3,000 and I saw it reported in The Times actually of up to 20,000. That's a lot of people to monitor. That's a lot of people to consider keeping an eye on. And if they haven't broken the law, they can’t be arrested. I’m in favor of that. But they're understaffed, they're under resourced and the main thing that this tells me is that they must have had other people. That’s only thing I can think of. They must have had other people who were either about to become operational or actually doing things a lot worse than Khuram was at the time we reported him and others reported him as well.

CO: And that's interesting itself, isn't it? I mean he was moved apparently to the lower echelons of about 500 active counter terrorism investigations going on. What does that tell you about those who are at the top?

HF: The ones at the top are very, very, dangerous. They're on our radar. The ones that are at the top or even in the upper half, you know these guys believe that they're part of a cosmic battle. They believe that their job is to create this division within our society so that this so-called “Great War” takes place. After that the Messiah will come and there will be peace and justice. You know part of a totalitarian, fascist, theocratic, Islamist Salafi jihadist ideology and they are dangerous.

CO: Given the numbers of people and how dangerous they are as you describe them. How is this likely to play in the election this week? We've heard complaints about Prime Minister Theresa May and the cuts to police — 20,000 fewer police officers. How much of this security will be an issue on people's minds as they go to the polls on Thursday?

HF: I think it'll be a huge issue and I think that having more police officers on the street would not have stopped this terrorist attack. That's not where I'm talking about being under resourced. I think the under-resourcing really in the intelligence services in the monitoring that's where we need the investment. And unfortunately Jeremy Corbyn, who's taken great advantage in this and he's criticizing Theresa May for these cuts. But he's a person who wants to scrap our government's counterterrorism strategy. I think it's poor political posturing to play the blame game at this stage. What I'd rather see are constructive solutions from all of the three major candidates —the three parties — more so Teresa May Jeremy Corbyn. Theresa May’s speech the other day was a good speech. But I've heard it before. I heard it with Tony Blair after the 7-7 attacks in London. I've heard it from David Cameron. I think one of the things we really need urgently is a counter extremism coordinator within our government, whoever the next prime minister is. This is a person who makes sure that each government departments are working in line with the strategy. There's no consistency and we need this position urgently. I really hope that the next prime minister will take this position on and we have a jointed government approach.

CO: All right. I appreciate speaking with you, Mr. Rafiq. Thank you.

HR: My pleasure.

JD: Haras Rafiq is the CEO of Quilliam that is a counter extremism think tank based in the UK. We reached him in Manchester. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

London attack: relative

JD: And as we learn more about the attackers, we are also learning more about the victims of the London attack. Yesterday, after two agonizing days of waiting, Melissa McMullan got the news she had dreaded. Her brother, James McMullan, was among the dead. And after she was told, Ms. McMullan spoke to the press. Here's what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

MELISSA MCMULLAN: This morning, we received news from the police that my brother’s bankcard was found on one of the bodies from Saturday night. But they are unable to formally identify him until the coroner's report tomorrow. We would like to send their condolences to the relatives and loved ones of all the people who lost their lives. Our thoughts are with them also at this time. While our pain will never diminish, it is important for us to carry on with our lives in direct opposition to those who would try to destroy us. And remember that they is the wreckage of small-minded individuals and will only breed more. This is not a cause we will follow despite our loss. From his friends that were with him that night, they want everyone to know what a generous and caring friends he was. Words will never be able to match his essence. There will only ever be one James. Nowhere else will you find such humor and unique personality. Someone who puts friends and family above all else. He was an inspiration.

JD: That was Melissa McMullan speaking to the press yesterday in London. Her brother, James McMullan, was among those killed in the attacks on Saturday.

[Music: Sad piano]

NSA leaks

Guest: John Kiriakou

JD: U.S. President Donald Trump has promised to go after “leakers”… quote/unquote. And yesterday, the Justice Department moved swiftly. They laid criminal charges against a woman in Georgia by the name of Reality Winner. She is a federal intelligence contractor, now facing charges under the Espionage Act for allegedly leaking a classified NSA report. And that report details Russian cyber-attack efforts in the days before the U.S. election. According to authorities, Ms. Winner then allegedly leaked that report to The Intercept, an investigative news site. Well, today, a lot of people are wondering whether The Intercept did enough to protect their source? John Kiriakou is one of them. He's a former CIA case officer-turned-whistleblower and he says journalists at The Intercept have burned him too. We reached John Kiriakou in Arlington, Virginia.

CO: Mr. Kiriakou, on Twitter today you wrote: “The Intercept should be ashamed of itself.” Why did you say that?

JOHN KIRIAKOU: Well, I said that The Intercept should be ashamed of itself because it did nothing to protect its source. We know now that that Reality Winner, an NSA contractor, provided The Intercept anonymously with a classified document. And The Intercept gave an actual original copy of that document to NSA to authenticate it. The document had unique markings on it. And Ms. Winner was identified and arrested.

CO: So they gave away her identity, but there's a statement that The Intercept has put out to say that they didn't know her identity — that they received the document anonymously — so how can how can they reveal a source? How can they blow an identity if they don't know what the identity is?

JK: Because the document itself had identifying marks on it. It had a telephone area code on it and NSA marks all of its documents with dots that identify the person who printed the document. Now if Rich Esposito and Matthew Cole, the two authors of this article, are the national security experts — the intelligence experts — that they claim to be they would have known. I mean this is journalism 101. They would have known that NSA marks its documents. And regardless of who the source was, whether the source was known to the reporters or not, the source would be identifiable to NSA and indeed she was.

CO: It seems that they also revealed there was an effort to authenticate this leaked document that was anonymous. The reporter contacted someone in the government agency with whom they had a previous relationship. In order to see if the document was real they gave away other details about from where it was mailed, the postmark and then gave a photocopy or sent a copy of the document, which had a fold in it, which indicated had been printed and taken out of the building probably. What does that tell you about the experience of someone who would reveal all of that?

JK: Well, this is very disappointing to me. Rich Esposito is a multiple Emmy-winning 30-year-long journalist. He knows better than this. Matthew Cole though, any organization that Matthew Cole is affiliated with is not an organization that I want to be affiliated with.

CO: What's your own experience with Matthew Cole?

JK: Well, Matthew Cole originally contacted me in the summer of 2008. He said he was writing a book on the CIA's rendition program and wanted to interview CIA people who knew something about rendition. I said rendition wasn't my thing. I really didn't know anybody in renditions. And he sent me a list of a dozen names and asked me if I could introduce him to any of these people. I said no. He sent me a second list of a dozen names and I said look, you obviously know this issue so much better than I do. I just can't help you. And, finally, he said well what about this guy you mentioned in your book? I'll call him John Doe. And I said sure, John Doe, he's probably retired and living in Virginia somewhere. But what I did there was I confirmed the surname of John Doe. As it turned out Matthew Cole was not writing a book about the rendition program. He was working secretly as an investigator for the Guantanamo defense attorneys and he took John Doe's name and gave it to the Guantanamo attorneys. The judge, believing this was a crime, contacted the FBI. The FBI investigated and either the FBI went into Matthew Cole’s email, that’s the e-mails of a working journalist, or Matthew Cole ratted me out to the FBI. But, at the end of the day, I was charged with three counts of espionage for that conversation and I ended up going to prison for two-and-a-half years.

CO: This is in early 2012 where all this happened to you?

JK: Correct. Correct. I was arrested in 2012, and went to prison from 2013 to 2015.

CO: This woman who has been charged, allegedly she is the leaker. She had the classified NSA document. She somehow got it to them and they went to confirm the authenticity of the document and have revealed all this. Do you know anything about the information in that document? How important it was to be put into the public domain?

JK: Yeah, this was not raw CIA or NSA intelligence. It was an NSA analysis of Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election. So sure it was classified. But one of the one of the tenets of the Espionage Act is that it had to cause harm to the national security. And as an analytic product, this is an opinion of the NSA’s analytic staff. I can't imagine that there's any harm to the national security here. And you know one other thing too. Up until Barack Obama was elected president, these issues were dealt with administratively and internally. I worked at the CIA for many years and there was a woman that I sat near who leaked information once to CNN. She was having an affair with a CNN correspondent. She was caught, she admitted what she had done and she was suspended without pay for six weeks and she was barred from promotion for three years. And that's normally how these things are dealt with. But since Obamak, the U.S. government has used the Espionage Act, which is really an iron fist to crack down on leaks. So is this really the new policy that we have now? We have two successive presidents using the Espionage Act to crack down on leaks.

CO: It seems though that whatever crackdown that Obama initiated, and he was notorious for having prosecuted more people than in previous administrations. But it didn't seem to have chilled the effect because the Trump administration seems leakier than a sieve.

JK: Yeah, I've been in Washington for 35 years and I've never seen leaks like what we're seeing coming out of the Trump administration.

CO: So does it surprise you that Mr. Trump thinks he should crack down on those leaking information?

JK: Well, you know, I wonder if President Trump is taking this as a personal slight rather than as a philosophical position? I wonder if the idea is he's so angry about people leaking things about him that he wants to crack down versus Obama? I mean he had a Nixonian obsession with leaks and wanted to just stop all leaks, whether they were about him or not.

CO: And what do you think will happen to Reality Winner.

JK: I really do think she is going to go to prison. I hate to say it. I think it's a terrible, terrible, thing. She's 25-years-old. You know I don't mean to sound hyperbolic, but her life is ruined. I mean with a felony conviction she'll never work again.

CO: And as a fellow whistleblower, do you understand why she did it?

JK: Oh, I do. I do. Some things are in the public interest and some things have to be revealed for the public good. It's a shame that there is no public service defense in the Espionage Act. I think that's why it needs to be rewritten.

CO: If you could give advice to a potential whistleblower, anyone who thinks that they've got something that they should put out, what would it be?

JK: Speak to an attorney first! Absolutely, positively speak to an attorney before you blow the whistle. That's the most important thing.

CO: Thank you and we'll leave it there. Mr. Kiriakou, thank you.

JK: Thank you. Take care.

JD: John Kiriakou is a former CIA case officer and analyst-turned-whistleblower. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia. And we have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Shelter donation

Guest: Alexandra Calderon

JD: When a shelter in Thunder Bay, Ontario asked the community to help save its outreach program, they did not expect that help to come in the form of a check from a homeless person. But that is what they got, when an anonymous donor gave $10,000 he had just received in a residential school settlement. We reached Shelter House’s development officer, Alexandra Calderon, in Thunder Bay.

CO: Ms. Calderon how did you react when this gentleman offered $10,000 to your shelter?

ALEXANDRA CALDERON: Both me and the support workers were moved to tears. It was an incredibly inspiring donation. And our initial reaction was of course to try and return the donation to the gentleman so that he could use it for his needs. But the donor was quite adamant that he wanted to make sure that his friends and family and the people that he knows that need the program were able to use it.

CO: What was his relationship with the shelter?

AC: He lived at the Shelter House for about four or five years, and he used the S.O.S program extensively.

CO: And you know he wants to remain anonymous, but can you tell us anything about him?

AC: He's from a First Nations community up here in northwestern Ontario. He did work before, but he fell on hard times. So he was using the shelter for some time. And obviously he's a survivor of the residential school system.

CO: Did he ever tell you or talk about his time in the residential schools?

AC: Not with me in particular and I'm not a frontline worker, so I'm not usually privy to those conversations. But I know that people who faced those residential school systems either immediately or later in life fell on hard times because you know they're dealing with a significant amount of trauma.

CO: So he got this money as part of this settlement — the government the federal government settlement — with those the victims of the residential school system. And then he gives it to you. So did you try and talk him out of it?

AC: We did. We certainly did try and talk him out of it. We wanted to make sure that first his needs are met. But he's just very adamant that this is you know he's been organizing his money and arranging things for himself. And one of the first things he did was go to the bank and get this $10,000 check made out to Shelter House.

CO: Is that the sum total of the settlement? Or does he have more money to live on?

AC: I can't speak to that.

CO: And what did you say in order to try and convince him to not give this money? It's kind of an odd thing to do, isn't it? To try and convince him not to donate to you.

AC: It is an odd thing to do, but I mean in this situation if it was a difficult donation to accept when you know that the person needs it more. But you know he had heard Chief CEO David Paul Achneepineskum from Metawa First Nation speaking. And he made the initial challenge for the $10,000. And he heard him talking about how it's important for people to band together and to support this program and come together as a community and support one another. And he just heard that call in his heart and really wanted to be one of the people who is who would step up, especially since he had been given the ability to.

CO: And that was at a media event in April, right?

AC: Yes.

CO: Tell us a bit about that, the appeal that your shelter made to the public?

AC: The program unfortunately was temporarily stopped April 1st. We had relied in recent years since the beginning of the program on reserve funding to cover the cost of the program. Unfortunately those reserve funds ran out and raised $200,000 in order to restart the program. Metawa First Nations was the first group to step up and make a donation. And they were so humble themselves that they actually initially didn't want to make a media event right away, they wanted to wait and see if other people would step forward. And then they gave me a call and said that they did want to speak about this publicly to encourage other people to donate and to help Shelter House from the S.O.S program.

CO: But if you're not able to raise this $200,000 what happens to this outreach program?

AC: The S.O.S program has enough funding to run half of the year. The program will restart late November. But every time we get more money towards this $200,000 goal the earlier we can launch the program. So at this point, you know we've received $100,000. That means we'll be able to start that much earlier, right? And of course we want to restart it immediately because that's the only way we can ensure that our clients have the best possible care out there.

CO: What does it mean for your clients? Speak a bit about what they need from you and from Shelter House?

AC: So the S.O.S program was actually started because two people died as a result of the elements in the wintertime in December of 2013. So this program was started as a four month pilot project and we transported just last year 4,923 people. As well as we give out amenities, so last year we gave almost 22,000 supplies. So that means harm reduction supplies, water bottles, food, tarps, blankets, whatever it needs to be. Our van is out there looking for places where people are sleeping unsheltered. And it works with those people to provide them with what they need and bring them in somewhere that is more comfortable.

CO: And your anonymous donor has been helped by your program, has he?

AC: He definitely has. And I think this gift that has now you know it's gone national. It's so inspirational and just transmits so much passion into the community that we're already seeing an uptick in in donations. And I think we're going to continue to see that.

CO: Well, he's an inspiration. Ms. Calderon, I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

AC: Thank you so much for the call.

CO: Bye bye.

AC: Bye bye.

JD: Alexandra Calderon is the development officer at Shelter House in Thunder Bay, Ontario. The shelter recently received a $10,000 anonymous donation from a man who once lived there.

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Part 2: Bruce Heyman, old tanks

Bruce Heyman

Guest: Bruce Heyman

JD: It was billed as the Trudeau government's first major foreign policy statement since the election of Donald Trump. But the speech that Chrystia Freeland delivered in the House of Commons this morning sounded more like a like a reluctant farewell to a dear old friend. Here's some of what the Minister of Foreign Affairs had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: The United States has truly been the indispensable nation, Mr. Speaker. For their unique seven-decades long contribution to our shared peace and prosperity. And on behalf of all Canadians, I would like to thank our American friends.

[Sound: Clapping]

CF: As I have argued, Canada believes strongly that this stable, predictable international order has been deeply in our national interest. And we believe it has helped foster peace and prosperity for our southern neighbors too. Yet, it would be naive or hypocritical to claim before this House that all Americans today agree. Indeed, many of the voters in last year's presidential election cast their ballots animated in part by a desire to shrug off the burden of world leadership. To say this is not controversial, it is simply a fact. Canada is grateful and will always be grateful to our neighbor for the outsized role it has played in the world. And we seek and shall continue to seek to persuade our friends that their continued international leadership is very much in their national interest, as well as that of the rest of the free world. Yet, we also recognize that this is ultimately not our decision to make. It is a choice Americans must make for themselves. The fact is that our friend and ally has come to question the very worth of its mantle of global leadership puts into sharper focus the need for the rest of us to set our own clear and sovereign course. For Canada, that course must be the renewal, indeed the strengthening of the post-war multilateral order.

JD: That was Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland addressing the House of Commons this morning. Bruce Hayman was President Barack Obama's ambassador in Ottawa. We reached Ambassador Heyman earlier today in Montreal, as he prepared for his former boss’s speech there this evening.

CO: Ambassador Heyman, what's it like when you hear Canada's foreign affairs minister speaking about America's world leadership in the past tense?

BRUICE HEYMAN: Well, I remain confident that longer term the U.S. will be a global leader in promoting the ideals we share. But today I think it's really important that Canada take a larger role in being a leader in promoting the progressive values.

CO: But how is that possible? The United States is the center of the world order right now. How do we suddenly decide to move on?

BH: Well, I think that there are a lot of people who are adjusting to the Trump administration, or at least trying to. You know elections have consequences and the election in the United States produced a Trump administration. And he has expressed certain ideals throughout his campaign and not surprisingly he is living up to many of those ideals, which I am personally on the opposite side of. And I know many Americans are. And I believe that we will be back being the global leader in promoting these ideals. But for right now, his administration has made it very clear that they're backing away from some of the things and many of the things that we found as natural for the U.S. to take a leadership role in during the post-World War II period. And so as you are up here in Canada one should take I think a bit of pause while looking at your friends United States, which I think the Minister did thanking us for the relationship. But I believe a strong candidate is in the U.S.’s best interest long term. I think Minister Freeland's wide ranging speech today stands as a guidepost for Canadian leadership. And I encourage Canada to continue to take a larger role on the world stage.

CO: But what are your ideas? How does a country like Canada work to create some other international system that can take on things like terrorism and climate change without the wealth, the power and the military might of the United States?

BH: So here's what I believe: you can count on the American people long term as friends, neighbors, allies with Canada and globally for democratic causes. I think you can count on actually the American corporate infrastructure and the desire to work together in the global market. I think what's happening right now is clearly the leadership coming out of the White House is taking on a completely different path. And I think that all of us are coming to grips with that. And this is not a party issue. This is not a Democrat or Republican issue. I would tell you from Republicans and Democrats that I talked to I think this is more emblematic of the Trump administration.

CO: You said that we can count on Americans. That we are still neighbors, friends, we can rely on the values Americans. But clearly a lot of Americans must be supporting… well, first of all, they voted for Mr. Trump. Mr. Trump seems to be speaking to them when he talks about a ban on Muslims. When he talks about pulling out of our free trade agreement or rewriting it completely. When he questions the roll of NATO. When he withdraws from the Paris Climate Agreement. All of these things must be speaking to his base that was large enough to elect him. So who are the Americans that you believe we can still count on to play this role?

BH: There are state and municipal leaders across the country. And many of these states are very much aligned and supportive of issues around environment and promoting environmental policies locally, municipally and throughout the states. We see many states who are taking leadership roles in sanctuary cities and take into account the ideals of which we have accepted that we are an immigrant nation, a nation that has an outstretched arm. But there are, as you pointed out, a number of Americans who are frustrated with their economic status in life. And that economic status was responded to by this new president. And he has explained to them that he can quickly reverse things and bring economic prosperity to them. And when one is in that desperate feeling I think that they reach out for the change. But I don't know if they fully understood or anticipated the approach that is being taken.

CO: You are in Montreal today with the former president Barack Obama and many Canadians anxious to hear what he has to say. What advice does he have for how Canada can take on this role that the world seems to expect it to, which is the rool that Canada should play in some kind of leadership?

BH: So I don't want to pre-empt his speech, but I will say the following. I know in his conversations while he was president and he knew his was coming to an end. Conversations with the prime minister and I know the conversations that the vice president had and even in his speech to the Canadian people and to the prime minister directly that Prime Minister Trudeau has an opportunity now and a responsibility as being the leader in the western world promoting progressive causes and ideals. And I think that this is an important time, which I think that the foreign minister was very much reflecting today. It's an important time for Canada, an important time for candidates to take on this leadership role and I think that the president very much values not only the friendship that he has and continues to have with the prime minister. But also the promotion of the progressive ideals of fair pay for women, for environmental causes, for reaching out to immigrants and just having a broader sensitivity in terms of health care and providing health care for those that can't afford it. And so these are the things that I think are at the core of the challenges that the U.S. is facing right now. And you know I will tell you that the U.S. is a little off balance and we could use our friend Canada to help provide some guidance.

CO: Ambassador Heyman, thank you.

BH: It's a pleasure, and I always enjoyed being back here in Canada.

CO: Thank you.

BH: Bruce Heyman was Barack Obama's ambassador to Canada. We reached him this afternoon in Montreal, as he prepared for President Obama's speech there this evening.

[Music: Electronica]

Old tanks

Guest: Craig Moore

JD: 73 years ago today, Allied troops crossed the English Channel for the D-Day invasion that would turn the tide of the Second World War. Among them were 14,000 Canadian troops. They had spent months preparing and training in England. And when they left England, they had to leave a few things behind. Including some Covenanter tanks. And so they buried them in a farmer's field. One of those tanks has just been unearthed. Craig Moore is a British tank historian who worked on the excavation project. We reached Mr. Moore in London.

CO: Craig, why would Canadian troops bury tanks before they left England for the front?

CRAIG MOORE: Well, they were obsolete at the time. They weren't combat ready. They weren't suitable to go to D-Day. These tanks were designed in 1939 and they only came out the factory in 1940 after Dunkirk. At the time, when they came from the factory, they were cutting edge. They were fast. They had sloped armor. They had a gun that could knock out any Italian and German tank. But when the Germans invaded France, they came across some of the British tanks the Matilda, the Churchill and the French B-1 tank that they couldn't knock out. And they had a bit of a shock. So they went back to the drawing board and they put extra armor on to their tanks and bigger guns. And this thing — the Covenanter — was not up for the job. Its armor was too thin then and it didn't have a big enough gun. But what this meant was this tank — the Covenanter tank — was a training tank. And when the British tank regiments upgraded to Churchills, Shermans and Cromwell tanks they gave their old tanks to infantry units like the Third Canadian Infantry Division to practice with. To practice how to work with tanks and also how to stop them and knock them out.

CO: So the Third Canadian Infantry Division soldiers were in Surrey. They were training there and they had these Covenanter tanks to train with. And so they were useful because they were going to go with them into combat. But that still doesn't explain why they ended up burying them?

CM: Because the farmer wanted to put his cows back out into the field. And the simplest and easiest way was to bury them and then the cows could walk across without getting cut up. They were treated as trash, as rubbish. So therefore, the easiest way like in most camps you just bury your tins. And this is a very big tin. And they buried two of them side by side in a three meter pit.

CO: How big was this tin can they had to bury?

CM: Well, it was the size of a very large car and it weighed 19 tons.

CO: That sounds terribly Canadian to be so tidy.

CM: Yes, very nice.

CO: And so how did you find it?

CM: It was known. The location was known. The local people knew about, the people that worked on this estate knew the location. And so in the 1970s, they dug one of them up. They found the other one was damaged and they left it in the ground. And this one they took out of the ground and it was then restored and is on view at the tank museum at Bovington in Dorset in England. The leader of the project, Rick Wedlock, he knew about this other tank. And he restores old World War Two tanks back to running condition. He sought permission from the land owners of the vineyards then organized the equipment two Mondays ago to start the dig. And we all went and helped.

CO: And so you were part of it then?

CM: Yes, I got my hands dirty. I normally do the research.

CO: What was it like to be part of the team digging up this tank?

CM: Oh, it was so exciting. Especially when we hit metal and we found the turret ring. You know evidence this thing is a tank. And we didn't realize what condition it would be. One side was damaged. But then when the mechanical diggers dug out the other side, we found that the road wheels and the track were still on the vehicle, which was very unexpected and exciting as well. And when we pulled it out of the pits, we found that the road wheels and suspension worked, which is amazing for a 76-year-old tank.

CO: You said the turret ring, but was the turret in place?

CM: No, we don't know where that turret has gone. It may still be buried. Rick had found another target from a British army firing range and we then put that turret on top of the chassis. And they're both now on view at the vineyard over the summer. And in the autumn winter, will take it away and get it restored.

CO: And restored to what length? I mean actually usable?

CM: Factory condition. Yes, Rick has done a number of tanks back to drivable condition. And the dream is to get this tank driving again as of a memorial to the brave Canadian soldiers that went off to fight on D-Day.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about what you know about the soldiers who were there in Surrey doing this training? The members of the Third Canadian Infantry Division who would have been training on this on this Covenanter tank?

CM: The area between the towns of Dorking and Leatherhead is all farmland. It is nice undulating hills. And, initially, they would have been camped in tents, but many of them were billeted in some of the local big houses. And there were reports of some of them being a bit naughty. This was not a tank regiment area. This is purely for infantry training. What I would like to do is have an appeal to all your listeners to see whether their relatives or friends have any photographs of soldiers of the Third Canadian Infantry Division in England doing training. That’s the one thing we haven't been able to find and we've asked the two Canadian war museums if they have information about the exact arrangements or any photographs and we've got nothing. We've asked locally, and again nothing. So we would love to have some photographs if anybody's got them in their old albums.

CO: All right. We'll put the call out for people who may know someone or have family who were there training in Surrey with this Covenanter tank and see if there’s some photos. It's good to talk to you, Craig. Thanks.

CM: Thank you very much. Bye.

JD: Craig Moore is a tank historian. We reached him in London. And if you do have any information or photographs of Canadians who fought in the Third Infantry Division you can reach Craig through his website: www.tank-hunter.com.

[Music: Folk]

Sound of the Day: Finnish announcer

JD: Stopping Sidney Crosby on a near breakaway in game for the Stanley Cup Finals is a big deal. It's big enough to warrant a “Holy Mackinaw!” from the announcer for sure. But if that goaltender then dives across the crease and stops the rebound, well then… words fail. Especially if that goaltender is Nashville goalie Pekka Rinne and the announcer is Antti Makinen. Here is the Finnish announcer calling last night's save. This is our Sound of the Day.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTTI MAKINEN: [Speaking: Finnish excitedly]

JD: That was Finnish announcer Antti Makinen spontaneously combusting in ecstasy on air last night while describing a desperate save by Nashville Predator goalie Pekka Rinne. The predators went on to beat the Penguins, taking game 4 of the Stanley Cup Finals and evening the series at two games apiece. While hearing Mr. Makinen’s explosive… I think you could call it commentary. We could not help but think back of another piece of play by play commentary that we played last summer. To be frank, we'll take any opportunity to revisit this clip. from the Euro Cup of 2016. Here is Icelandic announcer Gudmundur Benediktsson calling Iceland's extra time goal to beat Austria and advance to the next round of the tournament.

SOUNDCLIP

GUDMUNDUR BENEDIKTSSON: [Speaking: Icelandic in a very happy tone]

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Part 3: UK election: Labour, Philippines civilians

UK election: Labour

Guest: David Hanson

JD: After last weekend's terrorist attack in London, the issue of security is of course looming large for UK voters heading to the polls on Thursday. Well, today, the Conservatives did not pull their punches. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accused Labor leader Jeremy Corbyn of being soft on terrorism and siding with Britain's enemies. Meanwhile, Mr. Corben himself has called on Prime Minister Theresa May to resign because she presided over cuts to the police service. David Hanson is a candidate for the Labor Party and former Minister of State for Security and Counterterrorism. We reached Mr. Hanson near Liverpool.

CO: Mr. Hanson, we heard Boris Johnson today say that your leader Jeremy Corbyn has voted against every piece of counterterrorism legislation that's ever been brought before parliament. If security is the country's major concern right now, given the attacks can the Labor Party really win?

DAVID HANSON: I think we need to look at what Labor did in government. I was the minister in government responsible for counterterrorism and policing when we left office seven years ago. And we had 20,000 more police officers on the ground throughout the United Kingdom than we do now. We had 15,000 almost more firearms officers on the ground than we do now. We had a much tighter regime on looking at how we control terrorists who had come to our attention on the ground who couldn't be convicted because they hadn't yet committed offenses. We had something called control orders. So I’ll not take lessons from Boris Johnson about how my party and my governments have acted in the past.

CO: But isn’t Jeremy Corbyn a very different leader? He's said things that lead many people to believe he's a pacifist and that he doesn't want to engage in armed conflict. He is somebody who has been criticized for his pronouncements on the UK’s participation in war. It’s a very different party, isn't it?

DH: No, you need to look at what we're saying in the manifesto. We're fighting on the program for government and our program for government includes putting 10,000 police officers back on the ground. giving resources to the secret services to be able to carry on the war against potential terrorist activity. And looking at how we can work with international partners, both in America and Canada and also in mainland Europe to help tackle this worldwide threat. You know you've had terrorist attacks on your parliament and we've had terrorist attacks on our parliament. And they’re indiscriminate and we have to take action.

CO: We had spoken earlier in the show with Haras Rafiq, he's a counter extremism think tank leader in the UK. He says if you'd had the 20,000 more police officers on the ground on the weekend that it would not have stopped the attack. That is not the way you're going to be able to combat the terrorism that you're faced with in the past three months.

DH: Well, I disagree. I disagree profoundly. Because what we have in the United Kingdom is as a neighborhood policing model where we have local police officers working on the ground, getting to know their communities, talking to community leaders and they will pick up when there is potential difficulties in the community. Because we've reduced that figure by 20,000 in the past seven years, those figures are not on the ground — those boots are not on the ground. And it's not the end of terrorist activity, but it's a crucial part of being able to identify and support and get confidence in the community to pick up intelligence. And that's what's been lost in my view in the last seven years.

CO: We've heard over the past days and it's also happened after the Manchester attack, we heard that the people who made those attacks were known to police. These neighborhood police had heard about them. People had reported them. People had made it clear to the police that they were worried about these characters. That information seemed to have been lost when it moved up the chain into the security apparatus and to your intelligence and counterterrorism departments. These are areas where Mr. Corbyn, your leader, has voted to scrap the UK’s counterterrorism strategies, is it not true?

DH: No, no, no, no, no, he hasn’t. The current government, members of the government, the current prime minister voted against me as the counterterrorism minister in the last government on some of those orders. And our current leader joined them. But the Labor Party has always been committed to tackling and making sure there are sufficient powers to tackle terrorist activity. It’s the current government that have watered down what we had in 2010. And we have to look at it and I think you know that there there's a common agreement now that we have to look at what those powers are?

CO: The United States has been a very close ally of the UK. The two countries have been in lock step in the war against terror since 9/11. It's been quite close to NATO especially. And so Mr. Corbyn has said earlier that Mr. Trump should be disinvited to London for a visit. He has since changed his mind. But in the past 48 hours, he has been very critical of Mr. Trump again. How would Mr. Corbyn get along with Donald Trump?

DH: I suspect they won’t agree on very much at all. But there's nothing wrong with that. We're a democracy and so is America. We can have common interests and common interests in terms of trade, in terms of foreign policy, in terms of historical ties. But you know friends can also criticize each other and perhaps that's not a bad thing. And I'm sure that Prime Minister Trudeau is not going to automatically agree with everything that President Trump says. Neither will a Prime Minister Corbyn. That's the nature of our democracy. We're not led by America. We will support America where we have common interests.

CO: We've seen what Mr. Trump says about the Mayor of London Sidiq Khan. You say that friends can disagree and criticize, but what do you think Mr. Trump what would be his reaction if Mr. Corbyn began to criticize him?

DH: Well, I suspect he’ll do some late night tweets as he seems to do in his foreign policy. I think it'd be interesting to see whether there's any consistency in President Trump rather than ourselves. We've got to get on together. He's got a mandate. We will we will potentially have the mandate on Thursday. If he will suspend his late nights criticizing the mayor of London that's up to him. We've got a serious job to do and we are the fifth biggest economy in the world and we will continue to work with America to make sure that we are as a whole a benevolent force in the world at large.

CO: Mr. Hanson, I appreciate your time.

DH: Pleasure.

JD: David Hanson is a candidate for the Labor Party in the UK, and former Minister of State for Security and Counterterrorism. We reached him near Liverpool.

[Music: Ambient]

From Our Archives: David Boogaard decision

JD: It is not a decision Len Boogaard wanted. Yesterday, a federal judge dismissed a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Mr. Boogaard against the National Hockey League. Mr. Boogaard blamed the league for failing to prevent his son Derek's brain damage and his addiction to prescription painkillers. Derek Boogaard was an enforcer. He was six-foot-seven. He played six seasons in the NHL. He died from an accidental overdose in 2011. And, at the time, he was struggling with depression and was still under contract with the New York Rangers. Len Boogaard is a veteran RCMP officer. And following his son's death, he began his own private investigation into his son's medical treatment in the years leading up to his death. That investigation eventually led to the now dismissed lawsuit against the NHL. But in June of 2012, Carol spoke with Len Boogaard about his son Derek's death. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

LEN BOOGAARD: From what I've seen over the years, the majority of the players are just cannon fodder. You know if the player gets injured he doesn't want to sit out because he knows that there is you know a thousand kids or other players that are standing behind him waiting to take his spot. So the players and the doctors are quite prepared to take the medications or dole out the medications.

CO: What do you want to come of this? You spent a lot of time digging these files. You pried it out of their fingers. They weren't going to give it to you and you still didn't get a lot of the names and the data that you should have had. What do you plan to do with this now?

LB: I guess to sum it up is that you know life is all about choices and with those choices come the consequences. And unfortunately Derek you know made some poor choices and you know he's responsible in a large extent for his own death, et cetera. But there are other people that enabled that. And when I sit back and I look at you know the documentation that I was able to comply there are things that should have been done that weren't done. You know even as an example that after you know I had informed the Rangers of Derrick being back on the oxy, I managed to get a hold of the drug testing records. And Derrick was being tested almost two or three times a week and he was failing those drug tests. And he started failing those drug tests in December of 2010. And they just ramped right up until the first week in April of 2011. And you know he's tested positive for morphine, oxycodone, oxymorphone, but nothing was done. So why have a drug testing system in place if you're not going to look at the results or do anything about it? So it's one of these I guess there's got to be accountability in terms of the doctors, the substance abuse program, et cetera. So my goal in this I guess is to prevent this happening to any other players.

JD: From our archives, that was Len Boogaard, father of deceased NHL player Derek Boogaard, in conversation with Carol of June of 2012. Yesterday, a federal judge dismissed a wrongful death lawsuit filed by the Boogaard family blaming the NHL for their son's brain damage and addiction to prescription drugs. The judge ruled that the Boogaards were unable to prove that the NHL was negligent. But he added that the decision should quote, “not be read to commend how the NHL handled Boogaard particular circumstances, or the circumstances of other NHL players who over the years have suffered injuries from on ice play.” Unquote. This decision comes as the NHL is currently facing a similar 2013 class-action lawsuit involving more than 100 former players.

[Music: Rock]

Philippines civilians

Guest: Martin Thalmann

JD: While combat continues in the southern Philippines city of Marawi, a group of civilians is trapped. The Philippines army has been battling Islamic militants in the city for more than two weeks. Most of Marawi’s civilians have fled. But despite efforts by the International Committee of the Red Cross — the ICRC — to secure a cease fire and safe passage, there is still no end in sight for those civilians that remain in Marawi. After more than a week on the ground near the fighting, Martin Thalmann left the city on the weekend. He is the deputy head of the ICRC delegation in the Philippines. And today we reached Mr. Thalmann in Manila.

CO: Mr. Thalman, for those remaining people who are trapped inside Marawi, what is their situation at this point?

MARTIN THALMANN: Well, the remaining people who are still trapped inside Marawi City in the city center where the strongest fighting actually is. The situation is very difficult because you have to imagine these people have been trapped here now for over two weeks. These people have not been prepared; they don't have enough food, not enough drinking water. So it's really difficult for them and they're suffering under the daily shelling and exchanges of fire between the group and the army. So it's very tough for them.

CO: So Filipino forces — the military — is there trying to flush out the Islamic militants who are in the city center. But those people are still there in the middle of all that, is that right?

MT: That is right. At the beginning of the fighting, we have seen the population of Marawi, which was roughly 200,000 people, now 99 per cent have left the city. And in the first three days, we have seen a mass exodus. The roads leading to Marawi have been blocked by thousands of cars and people trying to get away. Unfortunately some people didn't make it out at that time. Either people who thought that the fighting's going to be over in no time, or for thought that they could sit it out. Especially sick people and elderly people stayed behind, and these are the ones who are suffering most.

CO: Do you know if there are many children inside?

MT: When the army moves forward, there are a few families every day who still can get to safe zones. And we see them in the recreation centre in Marawi City where we take them further down to safer spaces. Yes, they're also families with children and young children even.

CO: What can you tell us about the Islamic militants who are inside? Who have staged this? Are they are they local people?

MT: Yes, some of these people have local connections and they are very used to the region here. They know the towns and villages. But what we heard from the news is that they also had some foreign fighters apparently, which were spotted by villagers. But also then the military made statements in that direction.

CO: What you heard it earlier was that the militants who were there was a small group, maybe some dozens. Not a significant threat to be easy for the Philippine military to flush them out, but that doesn't seem to be the case. How many do you think are actually in there?

MT: The numbers have been probably a little bit underestimated at the beginning. And they are now much higher in the hundreds rather than the dozens, which were mentioned at the beginning. Also, you have to understand that some people joined these fighters. It was mentioned in the local media that when the jail was taken over by this group, some of the detainees might have joined the group. And there are also some concerns that there might have been the recruitment of fighters and sometimes even child soldiers.

CO: And you have been trying to negotiate some of this. You've been you've to communicate with the fighters to secure a cease fire and get safe passage for some of the civilians. What is it been like to negotiate with them?

MT: Well, the situation is such that the International Committee of the Red Cross we try to advocate for the plight of the civilians. And that makes it necessary that we have contacts with all groups in all parties involved in such fighting off. We have done so well here in the Philippines and we're hoping to achieve something. But in the current situation with a lot of fighting ongoing for the last 14 days now, it was very difficult to achieve anything in this regard.

CO: There are some reports that say the Islamic fighters are associated with Abu Sayyaf, that's the group that beheaded two Canadians who were held captive. And learned quite a bit about how ruthless they can be. What concerns do you have for the people who are inside? Any sense that they would respect the lives of the civilians who they are still holding inside the city?

MT: Yeah, I mean that's our main concern. You're right it is very disturbing to know a little bit the background what happens in other clashes in other fightings in the Philippines. And we understand that it is difficult and people are still held sometimes against their will in the city center of Marawi where the main fighting is now. Just last Sunday, the office of the presidential adviser for the peace process as I understand from our colleagues now underground intended to achieve a ceasefire. It worked from 8 to 9 o'clock Sunday, but then unfortunately some snipers started shooting again. So the four hour cease fire could not be maintained. But happily some more than 100 people made it out in that one hour cease fire.

CO: What we learned during the Abu Sayyaf situation a year ago is that to the degree to which the Filipino government is caught off guard by how strong these Islamic fighters in these jihadist groups are. And just how connected they are and how many resources they have. Is that the situation here? Do you think that President Duterte may have underestimated what he was up against?

MT: Well, I think that's difficult for me to say. You know we look at the humanitarian situation and the civilians and then that the clashes of such. And that any underestimation from the presidential side I think for this you would have to speak more to the people close to the president.

CO: But President Duterte has declared a state of emergency for Mindanao, is that helping you at all?

MT: Well, I think again that's his decision what he has to do in this kind of situation. For us, it's important that we have access to these areas where fighting happens. We're still allowed to go to Marawi City to help to reduce the suffering of the civilians. And the martial law in that sense has nothing changed in this regard.

CO: Mr. Thalmann, I really appreciate speaking with you tonight and getting this update. Thank you.

MT: My pleasure.

JD: Martin Thalmann is the deputy head of the ICRC’s — the International Committee of the Red Cross — delegation in the Philippines. We reached him in Manila.

[Music: Ambient]

Newfoundland ravens

JD: Jonathan Poulain a unique problem. A problem that has forced him to fly across the country from his job in Fort McMurray, take time off work and almost call a priest. His problem is actually two problems. Both of them are Ravens, both of which have taken an interest in Mr. Poulain’s home in Harbour Breton, Newfoundland. And by taking an interest I mean decided to destroy all the windows. Yesterday, Mr. Poulain spoke with Ted Blades, host of CBC Radio's “On The Go”, about these window-hating birds. Here's part of our conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN POULAIN: The black rubber seal that goes around all the windows there, they are chewing them apart. And the basement window actually they tore the screen out of that one. And they were hitting at that hard that there are bloodstains on the bottom of the window down there that they were going at it so hard down there.

TED BLADE: Any idea why?

JP: I’m thinking it's because of the reflection in the window. We have owls set up in all of our windows now. But that does not really detour them away. But, every now and then, I’ll see them. I’ll go out and scare them away myself and they'll take off.

TB: Because I'm trying to figure out if they thought there was something to eat. After a couple of bites they'd probably decide that they weren’t?

JP: Yeah, I know. We got the ten panes of glass right now that I got the rubber seal chewed off.

TB: I bet that's not covered under your warranty?

JP: No, no, no. That’s got to come out of my own pocket. It’s got to be done, but I just want to make sure before I replace them that someone ends up doing something about the situation before I replace the windows and it happens again.

TB: You said hope for a solution…

JP: I’m hoping that somebody like wildlife or somebody will eventually do something because you know you pay $300,000 for a home and you know I'm in a residential area. So you're pretty well limited to what you can do. And all you can do is only put up stuff in the windows or make noises and that type of stuff. There’s nothing else to do, right?

TB: How long before you have to go back to Fort Mac?

JP: I got to go back now… I took some time off and I’m half expecting now that I'll be going back sometime next week depending on what happens here. I'll see and if they don't come around, then I'll head back.

TB: If they stick around are you going to try and stay?

JP: I’m not going to have much choice there until my girlfriend gets home there and then she can she can be home. I'm watching him here now and he’s flying in over the house here now. And now he's gone the other way, he sees me in the window. What a size of a bird I tell you that.

TB: It’s a big one, is it?

JP: Yeah.

TB: Maybe you need a priest?

JP: Yeah, well you know what? I was actually going to get the priest to come out and bless it there just to just to be sure. And really it sort of funny in a way because nobody I've ever seen the likes of this, right?

TB: It's a first for me.

JP: A first for me too. Like I thought it was a joke first, but then when I saw just going, nailing at the window I said holy cow! Now I’ve seen it all.

JD: It is no joke. That was Jonathan Poulain speaking yesterday with Ted Blades, host of “On The Go”, from Harbour Breton, Newfoundland.

From Our Archives: Living room eagle

JD: And while Mr. Poulain’s destructive Ravens have been thus far unsuccessful in entering his home… despite their best efforts. Wendy Morell in Broadstone, England was not so lucky. In 2014, we told you about a surprise visitor Ms. Morell was not too keen on having in her living room. From our archives, here is Wendy Morrell speaking to Carol Off in June of 2014.

SOUNDCLIP

WENDY MORELL: It was postering around on top of the shelf. It had knocked down a few photographs of our dogs. It was pecking in a bowl of potpourri. We were a bit concerned that it might poison itself and the police put me in touch with the local bird of prey rescue.

CO: And they came?

WM: They did. They took maybe 20 to 30 minutes to come. I wish they'd been here immediately because I was a bit concerned about the bird. But the chap came in with a reasonably large box and said by his description he thought it was a sparrow hawk and then he turned the corner into my lounge and said it's ah, it’s an eagle. And he said it's a Russian Steppe eagle that he knew had been reported missing a couple of days earlier.

CO: A Russian Steppe eagle?

WM: Yes. I’d never heard of it.

CO: No, no, and it's obviously not a local bird. And so do you know anything about it? Like how big it is?

WM: We think it’s about 15 inches tall. It’s got a wingspan of maybe about 4 feet.

CO: And it doesn't sound like the eagle is terribly upset or distressed by all of this? It seemed quite calm?

WM: Yes, I mean I think one or two people who’ve looked at little videos say it looked a little bit nervous or whatever. But I guess you know if you're flying somewhere and you end up in someone's lounge. Maybe it wanted a different channel on the TV.

CO: Maybe doesn't like tennis, yes.

WM: Yes.

CO: Are you going to be leaving your windows open in the future?

WM: Yes, we've had them open all day today. I mean this bird, which we thought was called Forrest, but is apparently called Storm, stormed in. But he's hopefully not likely to come back again.

JD: From our archives, That was Wendy Morell in Broadstone, England speaking to Carol in June of 2014 about her visitor: a Russian Steppe eagle. Before that, you heard Jonathan Poulain telling CBC Newfoundland host Ted blades about two pesky ravens that just will not leave his home alone. If you have your own trespassing bird tale to tell. Do drop us a line: aih@cbc.ca, or call us… that's better: 416.205.5687. Or, obviously, tweet us: @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Cultural]

Tubelip fish

JD: Kissing the mucus and flesh of corals with self-lubricating lips was not what we were expecting.” Those words were recently said by a stunned marine biologist by the name of Victor Huertas. And he's right; we were not expecting that. To be clear, Mr. Huertas himself did not kiss the mucus and flesh of corals with self-lubricating lips, but he and his colleagues did watch a tubelip wrasse do it. And now they are sharing what they were able to make out from that marine make out session. Here is why any of this is a big deal. First, coral is mouth-shreddingly sharp. Plus, it is covered with a thin layer of mucus-covered flesh containing poisonous cells that sting. But neither of these is a problem for the purple and orange tubelip wrasse because it has a fancy mouth. For one, the tube lip, lips secretes a mucus that protects them from the stinging stuff. For another, the lips are about 18 centimeters long and not just a couple of fleshy bits, but a bunch of elaborately arranged membranes, which the researchers compare to the underside of a mushroom. Now of course a view of ever smooched with someone who treats your face like a melting fudgesicle you know technique is important. And the tubelip wrasse has it. Using this elaborate lip system it creates a seal around a portion of the coral, vacuuming up the coral mucus and flesh with no problem. In the space of just two 100s of a second, or as Mr. Huertas puts it quote,

“It looks exactly like a quick kiss with a distinctive duck, sound often leaving a coral hickey, which is actually a patch of flesh sucked off the skeleton.” Unquote. Well maybe hickey is stretching the kiss thing a little far, but it is fascinating anyway. Plus, it allows me to suggest you save this to the next person you kiss… provided they're good at it. And provided we can agree that coral can be gray, which it can: Baby, I compare you to a kiss from a wrasse on the gray.

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June 6, 2017 episode transcript

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