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The AIH Transcript for May 29, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen man sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

HM: The right guy for the job and the righter guy who came close. The Conservative Party chooses Andrew Scheer as its new leader, but the socially conservative Brad Trost had a strong showing. And tonight, he'll hold forth about coming fourth.

JD: United they fall. After weeks of negotiations following a tight election, British Columbia's Green party announces it's teaming up with the provincial NDP to bring down the Liberals.

HM: One fight follows another. A championship bout leaves a New Brunswick boxer with a major brain injury. And while his opponent says he tried to have the fight stopped, he also says it's just part of the sport.

JD: It all comes down to yoooouu. American president Donald Trump declares his trip to Europe a great success for America, but for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, it apparently proved the European Union can no longer depend on the U.S. as an ally.

HM: A penny for one particular thought. A Hamilton research engineer uses his common sense. Well, one cent anyway as a tiny canvas for an even tinier three dimensional carving of a Canadian flag.

JD: And between the rock and a hard race. On Saturday night, Luke Doucet was a dashing figure playing a concert. And on Sunday morning, he literally dashed to a top 30 finish in an Ottawa half marathon. As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that hears Saturday's show was the perfect length. But on Sunday, Luke ran a bit long.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: BC election, Conservative Leadership: Trost, Luke Doucet

BC election

Guest: Norman Spector

JD: The Greens went with the NDP. Since the election in B.C., Green leader Andrew Weaver has been playing his cards close to his chest. But today, his party agreed to support a minority NDP government in the province. Christy Clark's B.C. Liberals were one seat short of the 44 seats needed to form a majority. The NDP won 41 seats and the Greens won three and that left them with the balance of power. Norman Spector helped Mr. Weaver negotiate today's deal. Mr. Spector is the former chief of staff to Brian Mulroney. We reached him in Victoria.

HM: Norman Spector, hello.

NORMAN SPECTOR: Good evening.

HM: So Andrew Weaver negotiated with both the liberals and the NDP. He said today there were commonalities with both of those parties. So why did this deal happen with the NDP? What made them win?

NS: Well, I think fundamentally what turned the tide was the fact that there was more commonality between the NDP and Green platform and there was with the Liberals. And equally important the sense I think that Andrew Weaver had that the Liberals needed a time out. That there was a mood for change in the province and there were as I was observing this, as a former newspaper columnist, I would say there was a time and sense of the Greens and their two MLAs plus Mr. Weaver we were almost recoiling from the prospect of supporting a Liberal government.

HM: And yet Mr. Weaver negotiated with the Liberals as well. Can you describe the tone of negotiations with both the liberals and the NDP?

NS: The tone was excellent with both and both the Liberals and the NDP had excellent negotiators and very quality people. They were always civil and very amiable and the talks were substantive and I have to say that they were high-minded and serious. As you would expect in a situation where we've not had here since 1952, where we now have a minority government and the need to make the legislature work to ensure that there is a government in place.

HM: So there were civilized negotiations. But you're saying Mr. Weaver and his party almost recoiled from working with the Liberals. What do you mean by that?

NS: Well, I won't tell tales out of school, but these are just observations that I might have put in a newspaper column. I'm not going to mention specific incidents, but as I was watching the body language on certain issues and certain items that was the impression that I had sitting at the table with Mr. Weaver and his chief of staff and one of his MLAs.

HM: Premier Clark has said in recent days that the combination of the Greens and the NDP would be a job killer. I mean you're dealing with a province that depends to a large degree on resource growth and there is the belief I think among some of the Liberal supporters that implementing the Green agenda could be a risk to those sectors. Clearly they're expecting some of their plans to go through in this NDP government. What do you say to that?

NS: Well, I think that is a legitimate concern for a couple of reasons, but the background to this is that British Columbia has had an amazingly good economic run. And we've got the lowest unemployment in the country and we've had five years of balanced budgets. And it really has been an unusually good period economically, which may be one reason that economic issues did not figure most prominently in the election and other issues came to the fore and that explains the results. The other aspect of this is that the province is now divided between the resource producing regions of the interior and the coastal regions, which to a greater or lesser extent, essentially live off the wealth created in the interior of the province. So I think there is an issue there. But I think it's important to note that the NDP, while it has an environmental wing as well, still is the party of labor. And I think that they will be conscious of the potential impact on working people. I mean jobs are important and Mr. Horgan himself has a background as an advisor and a staff member many, many, years ago for one of the most business-oriented New Democratic cabinet ministers that we had in this province in the 1990s.

HM: You said other issues took some precedence here. Mr. Weaver has said that the Kinder Morgan pipeline was critical to the Greens on whether they would support the Liberals or the NDP. What can you tell us about what we might expect?

NS: Well, Mr. Weaver and Mr. Horgan will be releasing the details of the agreement tomorrow. So without violating that confidence I would say that this agreement is pretty bad news for the Kinder Morgan pipeline.

HM: All right, now we are heard from Premier Clark, she issued a statement late today saying that she was going to consult with her caucus to figure out what she would say tomorrow. What options does she have at this point?

NS: Well, she essentially has two options now. One is to meet the legislature and present a throne speech and be defeated on that throne speech, which is what Frank Miller did in 1985 in Ontario. In producing what came to be known as “The Harlot's Throne Speech” because it was packed full of things that might appeal to Bob Rae that the Ontario Conservatives have never stood for, so that's one option. The other option is to submit her resignation now. In other words say to herself why go through the whole process when you know that defeat is inevitable on the throne speech, which is a confidence measure. But it's also worth noting, and I would be surprised if Premier Clarke does this, she can delay recalling the legislature and there’s not much you can do about it. But it seems to me that Horgan and Weaver have been rather astute in putting this agreement together before the election writs are returned at the end of the day tomorrow. You know in terms of the public there now is no doubt that Ms. Clark will not have the confidence of the legislature.

HM: Norman Spector, thank you very much for joining us.

NS: You're very welcome.

HM: OK. Bye bye.

JD: Norman Spector helped negotiate the deal announced today between the B.C. Green Party and the NDP. We reached him in Victoria.

[Music: Ambient]

Conservative Leadership: Trost

Guest: Brad Trost

JD: It was group-hug time for the federal Conservatives today. Newly elected leader Andrew Scheer told his caucus, that after a hard fought campaign, they should all come together to take down the Liberals and Prime Minister Trudeau. Here is some of what Mr. Scheer had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: We're the party of everyday Canadians who work hard, who make sacrifices to secure a better future for their kids. That's who we are. That's who we fight for. We're never going to change. The Liberals can take their cues from the cocktail circuit. We will take ours from the minivans, from the soccer fields, the Legion halls and the grocery stores. Now, 2019 is not too, too, far away. So we have a lot of work to do. I'm excited to get started with you. Let's get started. Thank you very much.

JD: That was new federal Conservative leader Andrew Scheer addressing his caucus earlier today. And some members of that cause might feel particularly confident following Saturday's leadership results. Staunch social conservative and anti-abortion candidate Brad Trost surprised many by fight by finishing fourth. And the Conservative’s opponents are making much of the fact that most of Mr. Trost's supporters then went on to help tip the balance for Andrew Scheer. We reached Brad Trost in Ottawa.

HM: Brad Trost, your fourth place finish is actually being described as a huge victory for social conservatives. What message are you taking from Saturday's results?

BRAD TROST: Well, I think it's important to say social conservatives are a vibrant part of the Canadian political scene. Particularly, but not exclusively, in the Conservative Party and while we're maybe not the majority of the party we're part of the party and like every other wing of the party we want our place at the table too.

HM: A large number of your supporters appear to have moved to support Mr. Scheer. What do you think that they saw or that they see I guess in him?

BT: Yeah, our vote seems to have gone roughly two to one more towards Andrew than to Max. And I think the reason Andrew did better than Max did was the family image, the fact that he's a devout Roman Catholic and has a perfect voting record. Max had some policies which appealed to social conservatives, but he didn't quite have the same strong image. And I think, in the end, that's what tipped the difference between the two of them.

HM: You speak of Mr. Scheer's family life. We heard today from the anti-abortion group We Need A Law they've written that under Mr. Scheer they see and I'm quoting, “The promise of a friendlier and more welcoming environment in Parliament for individual members to introduce legislation protecting pre-born human rights.” You have been a very vocal opponent of abortion. Do you think that they are right?

BT: Well, I think number one Andrew is a friendly welcoming guy. So I think that's going to be true on everything across the board. How he's particularly going to do with each and every individual issue including pro-life issues. I think even Andrew has been quite totally figured out the details of that. So from my perspective I think I'm going to give him space and support on however he comes to work with this problem. But I think a lot of it has to do with his personality. He's a genuine, open and happy-go-lucky guy and that sort of approach I think is good for all issues.

HM: I guess though I'm wondering whether you think he is a friendlier voice within the party and a friendlier leader to those who have socially conservative values like yourself?

BT: I think that would be a safe assumption to make. Again, Andrew is going to have his own style and his own way of doing things. I don't think people should read too much into small nuanced things. Yeah, he will have a friendly and open way of dealing with things. I think that's good. I think that's the way all Canadians should engage in politics. And for issues that I care about like the life issues I think that's outstanding.

HM: Your colleague, Michelle Rempel, was asked today by reporters about any potential changes in abortion policy or at least putting the issue on the table. She said those suggestions didn't make sense to her. She reminded everyone of Stephen Harper and his position that Conservatives would not reopen those debates. Why do you think Mr. Scheer might be willing to consider something like that?

BT: Well, as I said earlier, Andrew is very much a genuine, open guy. His style of leadership is going to be different than Stephen’s not just on this issue but across the board. So I think that's a good thing. I mean one of the reasons that we were criticized in the last election with Stephen Harper was he was too controlling. And not just about abortion, but everything. Andrew is relaxed in his own skin. We'll let him figure out how he wants to do the party leadership. But I think someone who has a generally open attitude towards life will be good for both our movement and for all issues across Canada.

HM: But if you have a party that has such diverse opinions I mean such a spectrum of views. How do you remain that open? I mean some would say that Mr. Harper was controlling because he had to be to pull together a party that had different ideas?

BT: The diversity we have to our party is actually a strength. I mean we bring people in. Michelle Rempel sent me a nice congratulatory note very soon after the results came in. I consider her a friend. This is something. We aren’t trying to drive people out. When many media talk about making the tent broader or more diverse they may not realize that means bringing in social conservatives. Social conservatives are a big chunk of new Canadians. If you look at my results in this leadership race I did best in areas like Markham, Richmond, Vancouver South, Downtown Edmonton voted for me. We're a large part of the Canadian population. We want to have our views paid attention to. We know we won’t get everything, but we're part of the Canadian discussion and the Conservative party is open, welcoming and inclusive unlike the Liberals. And I think that's a good thing.

HM: Polling though indicates that the public opinion across this country has actually been becoming more progressive rather than less. And we certainly saw the turnout in the numbers in the last election seemed to reflect that. I mean how do you become a government if you appeal to trends or opinions that do not seem to be the way the country and I guess the world is actually heading?

BT: No, not to argue the point with you too strongly. But one of the columnists today in one of the major newspapers was pointing out the exact opposite. So I guess, like with everything, polls are not always accurate and polls are hard to prove and polls can be interpreted.

HM: Are you concerned at all that your position and putting it forward might somehow help the Liberals and the NDP paint the Conservatives as being anti-abortion, possibly anti-trans rights, or possibly, in terms of your own positions, even skeptics about climate change?

BT: No, I'm not. And again, it goes back to the columnists today writing in one of the national papers where he basically went through my views without talking about me and said a lot of Canadians are fairly similar to the points that some of the Conservative candidates hold. They may be different in the majority, but they're not out of the mainstream. Remember my voters are not the richest people in the country. My voters are not the people who spend all the day working at national newspapers. Their people who go to work, do different things and go home. Don't generally get involved in politics, but sometimes do. And their voices need to be represented.

HM: Mr. Trost, I thank you for taking time to talk with us today.

BT: Thank you. Have a great night.

HM: All right, you too. Bye bye.

JD: Conservative MP Brad Trost came forth in Saturday's Conservative leadership vote. We reached him in Ottawa. We have invited Andrew Scheer to come on our program and we'll bring you that interview just as soon as he finds time.

[Music: Cultural]

Luke Doucet

Guest: Luke Doucet

JD: On Saturday night, Luke Doucet was in his usual rock star garb: tight black jeans, wide brimmed hat. He was headlining a show with his band Whitehorse at Ottawa’s Race Weekend. A few hours later though, competitors might have done a double-take when they saw Luke on the starting line of the half-marathon, dressed as a long distance runner, in sneakers and a headband. And despite the late night, he placed 21st in the race in a field of over 13,000 runners. We reached Luke Doucet in Toronto.

HM: Luke, I think a lot of people couldn't get up to run a race after attending a rock concert, never mind performing in one. How is it that you can get up after a rock show and run a half-marathon?

LUKE DOUCET: Well, part of the secret might be that you don't really sleep. I've been an insomniac for much of my life and that's one of the reasons I chose to start running. But the silver lining is that when I have a hard time sleeping before a race because I'm nervous or because I was up late and the adrenalin that goes along with playing a rock and roll show sometimes makes it hard to sleep. I'm accustomed to not sleeping if need be. So I guess I just managed to make it work.

HM: Do you really not get any sleep?

LD: Often I don't. This last weekend before Ottawa, I did get three hours sleep before I raced. So that's good. That's the most. But sometimes it's actually none. It's a little hard on the head and your nerves are shot.

HM: Wow. Now, this was a pretty impressive race for you. You were a 21st out of more than 13,000 runners, 19th among the men. What about the run for you? What were the highlights?

LD: It was a tough run. It was warmer than I was hoping, so I didn't end up running as fast as I wanted. I'm thrilled with what you just described. The top 20 among men is incredible and I know the Ottawa field is really tough. Eric Gillis, some people would recognize that name, he won the Canadian 10K championships the day before. So he raced the day before. He is also Canada's fastest marathoner at the moment. He just appears sort of nowhere within the first mile and paced me for the duration of this half-marathon. He encouraged me around corners. He encouraged me up hills. He encouraged me to engage my arms and to shorten my stride and to breathe into my stomach. And the kind of minute by minute pacing and coaching that a professional runner would potentially have access to. And he just did it as a shakeout run because he had competed so hard the day before. He’s at that level that he can run at my pace just for fun. But for me, I was completely star-struck and I can't exaggerate how fantastic it was to have a runner of that caliber more or less holding my hand throughout what was that we really was quite a grueling race because the heat was very hot.

HM: So when you're performing I mean we're talking about pacing a run. Do you pace yourself on stage when you're running the next day?

LD: Not really. Ultimately the music is more important. And I wouldn't want to compromise my liberty to just let myself go in the moment and play music and be present for people who are listening to a show. So it occurred to me once or twice during the performance in Ottawa on Saturday night that in a perfect world I wouldn't be on my feet at all. I would be having a Netflix night. But those are the kind of stipulations that you might enforce more pedantically if you were a pro runner. I'm just a delusional amateur. It's just a different thing.

HM: Better well-performing one. I mean how much does a show take out of you?

LD: I don't know. It's really hard to tell because you're usually so consumed with adrenaline that you don't notice it. You know you don't feel and you can work pretty hard on a rock and roll stage and not notice it until the next morning or some hours later because the adrenaline takes you a long way. And I guess, in that sense, rock and roll has a lot in common with running. You can feel three days before a marathon or before a race that you're heavy and sluggish and you don't have any game in your legs. And then the minute the gun goes the shot of adrenaline is really quite something.

HM: So what does running do for you? Is that it?

LD: No, I mean I got into running because I because I have a lifetime of insomnia that I've been managing. And you know I've been playing music since I was a teenager and the environment in which you are most often doing now is a bar. And so somebody is always handing you a beer and it's a celebratory event for people watching the show. And of course, you move on to the next city the next day and do it again and again and again. And there are some lifestyle pitfalls that eventually you have to mitigate or at least address. So in my mid-30s, I just decided I needed to find something. That realization sort of coincided or came to a head with a relatively innocent or innocuous muffin top joke that my wife Melissa made at my expense and I took the message. And so that's really what inspires me. I mean you only race three or four times a year. And that's where the adrenaline is really present. The other 360 days a year or 340 days that you run. It's pretty lonely and sluggish out there. I tend to run alone because I travel.

HM: Is there still a place for sex, drugs and rock and roll in your other world?

LD: Well, you create more room for it when you spend half your life running.

HM: I guess that's one way of looking at it.

LD: Yeah.

HM: OK, look congratulations. It's really impressive and I appreciate you telling us about it.

LD: Thank you so much.

HM: OK, take care.

LD: Take care.

CO: Bye.

LD: Bye.

JD: We reached Luke Doucete in Toronto

Back To Top »

Part 2: Merkel EU, boxer injury

Merkel EU

Guest: Stephan Mayer

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN F. KENNEDY: All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin. And therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words [Speaking: German.]

JD: John F. Kennedy speaking in Berlin circa 1963. Today, the U.S. is marking what would have been the former president's 100th birthday. And that historic speech where President Kennedy famously said “I am a Berliner” marked a new path forward for American relationships with West Germany. But this past weekend, at a Bavarian beer hall, 54 years after President Kennedy's monumental address, German Chancellor Angela Merkel struck a very different tone. The Chancellor made a passionate plea for the European Union to forge its own destiny without relying on American and British allies. Here is part of what she said. As translated by the BBC.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGELA MERKEL: [Speaking: German.]

TRANLATOR: The times in which we could completely rely on others are, more or less, over. That's what I've experienced the last few days. And therefore, I can only say we Europeans have to take our own destiny into our own hands. Of course, in friendship with the U.S. and in friendship with Great Britain with good neighborly relations wherever that's possible. Also with Russia and with other countries, but we have to know that we have to fight for our own future as Europeans for our destiny. And that's what I would like to do together with you.

JD: Chancellor Merkel's comments come after U.S. President Donald Trump's meetings last week with European leaders at NATO and the G7. Stephan Mayer is a German Member of Parliament and the Home Affairs spokesperson for Chancellor Merkel's ruling Christian Democratic Union. We reached Mr. Mayer in Berlin.

HM: Stephan Mayer, a lot of observers see Chancellor Merkel's comments as indicative of a major shift for Europe. How significant do you think her remarks are?

STEPHAN MAYER: I am deeply convinced that she made this statement yesterday in Munich with a lot of background. I think she was influenced by the experiences the days before the G7 summits and NATO summit in Brussels when she met Donald Trump for a couple of hours. So I'm convinced she was very touched by this unique experience.

HM: What do you think it is about her interactions with President Trump that has convinced Chancellor Merkel that the United States is an unreliable partner?

SM: My impression is that our Chancellor Angela Merkel feels that there is a shift in the foreign policy of the United States under the new President Donald Trump. And certainly she had a very good relationship with Barak Obama and I'm deeply convinced that she is so very much aware of the importance of the United States, especially for Germany outside the European Union. And the USA is by far the most important partner. So, on the other hand, she is very much concerned about the attitudes of the new administration, especially of the President. It's very difficult to get along with the U.S. administration concerning climate policy or free trade agreements. So we are very keen on having a good relationship with our partners, with the USA and we have the hope that these relations get better and we stick together closely.

HM: The Chancellor actually mentioned continuing their friendship with the United States, with Britain. But those remarks didn't sound particularly friendly. When she was speaking, you say she speaks very precisely. Who is she is sending the message to? It’s not just Germans who she knows are hearing her.

SM: Certainly. This message was also sent to the Germans because she just returned from Sicily and I had the impression she was still shocked and touched by this experience in Sicily meeting Donald Trump for the first time for a couple of hours. And I think the experience to be in a conference with him for that long a period of time. But certainly she addressed the German public with her statement. But you're absolutely right it was not only the German public and the German citizens. She also addressed the U.S. administration and makes clear that after the first six months of the new U.S. administration the time of waiting is over and now we have clear expectations towards the new U.S. administration.

HM: OK. You're saying you have these expectations. But can Europe afford to lose its relationship with the U.S. when it comes to trade or defense? I mean how can Europe possibly stand on its own without this support?

SM: I'm convinced that in these difficult times there's also a chance. And the chance is to enhance and to foster the ties between the member states of the European Union. Certainly the European Union is also going through difficult times. But perhaps now these difficulties, especially with a new U.S. administration and there difficulties to communicate with a new U.S. administration means also another chance to foster the ties between the member states of the European Union. And to stick together more closely.

HM: And yet, there is not necessarily cohesion within the EU. We see countries like Poland and Hungary aligning more with Trump than Merkel, particularly when it comes to migrants. And of course, your Chancellor is still being blamed for the bailout of Greece. Why should the rest of the European Union see Germany as leading the cause?

SM: Certainly it's true that the European Union isn't very coherent, especially on the topic of migration and refugee policy. But I see there is a chance in these difficulties with the new US administration. Suddenly this this chance must be taken and I'm deeply convinced that now the answer must be a coherent position of the European Union for instance concerning climate policy or concerning the importance of free trade.

HM: It appears that it doesn't take much to anger President Trump. I mean world leaders have said less than Chancellor Merkel and gotten some really negative feedback from him. How do you think he will respond to the Chancellor's comments?

SM: It's very difficult for me to predict how the U.S. President Trump will react on this statement of our Chancellor Angela Merkel and if he responds at all. But I think on the other hand, USA is dependent on good relations to the European Union as well. But I think it's not the ideal solution for the United States to stand alone and to be isolated within the first world countries.

HM: You know Donald Trump obviously is the leader of the United States, but even members of his own party and members of his own cabinet have made different statements about Europe, about NATO, about partnership. Do you see a way to work around the White House in trying to deal with policies in the future?

SM: Certainly. I'm totally aware of the fact that the U.S. administration doesn't only consist of on the Donald trump as the President and certainly we will try on all difficult levels to foster ties In Washington, D.C. But certainly the U.S. President is very influential. So we have to get along with him now for the next three and a half years at least.

HM: Mr. Mayer, thank you very much for taking us through what your government is thinking and what you are thinking about the situation right now.

SM: OK. Thank you. Good bye.

HM: Bye bye.

JD: Stephan Mayer is the Home Affairs spokesperson for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union Party. We reached Mr. Mayer in Berlin. For more on this story do go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Boxer injury

Guest: Gary Kopas

JD: He lost a match in the 10th round. But the end of that fight marked the beginning of a new one. Hours after New Brunswick boxer David Whittom was defeated in his championship fight against Saskatchewan Boxer Gary Kopas, he was in the hospital in St. John. Mr. Whittom had suffered a traumatic brain injury. He has had part of his skull surgically removed in order to allow his swollen and injured brain more room to heal. The two men were fighting for the Canadian Professional Boxing Council cruiserweight championship. We reached Gary Kopas in Saskatoon.

HM: Mr. Kopas, could you take us back to this fight on Saturday and tell us how it is that your opponent, David Whittom, ended up in hospital.

GARY KOPAS: Well, we had a 10 round battle back and forth. I guess accumulation of punches you know I don't think it was any one punch or anything.

HM: At what point did you sense that maybe things weren't going well for him in the fight?

GK: Throughout the fight, I mean I felt I hurt him a couple of times here and there, but he definitely got me back. And I think in the tenth round I caught him with a good, solid combination that really, really, hurt him. And I could tell he was really hurt then ref jumped in and stopped it. You know I kind of said to the ref he's not got on his feet kind of thing. Yeah, the ref just said box, continue or whatever. So I threw a big haymaker and you know got one more in. I didn't want to, but, at the same time, you know your adrenaline is going and I mean you’ve got to do what you got to do. That’s what you are trained to do, right? I mean I'm not blaming it on the refs by any means, but it was clear to me that he was hurt and like in “Lala Land”, so to speak, and I didn’t want to hit him anymore.

HM: In fact, in the video, it looks like you were starting to celebrate when the referee decided to keep the fight going?

GK: Right, after the first time. Yeah, I was like celebrating because when I did look at him I could see clearly that he was not in any kind of shape to continue. I was in shock that the ref said to continue.

HM: Is that normal that you would you would say something to the ref? That your opponent you know wasn't doing well?

GK: No, not normal. I mean I had compassion for it. But, at the same time, you're in there to do the job, right? Obviously I wouldn't have continued if I knew the end result or whatever. But it's hard to know that. You can't know that.

HM: Are you pretty clear that the referee heard what you said to him about your opponent —about Mr. Whittom?

GK: Honestly, I don't know. I mean I'm not trying to blame it on the refs. They're human. They definitely make mistakes, but that's how I felt he was hurt in that situation. But I mean it's happened a million times where you know the guy looks hurt and the refs continue it and that hurt guy comes back and knocks the other guy out.

HM: Yeah, I mean you say you don't think you blame the ref, but you know I guess given that this is the person responsible for ensuring your safety. Do you think that the ref should be investigated?

GK: No. No. Like I said, it's a human mistake. I mean we went through nine of you know battle back and forth. And if you stop the fight every time somebody got hurt the fights would be short lived.

HM: What do you think that you saw in Mr. Whittom at that moment that the ref didn't see?

GK: Just that he was on shaky legs and he just looked like he wasn’t in the right state of mind. He looked knocked out on his feet kind of thing.

HM: OK. So what did you think when you learned that he had ended up in hospital later on?

GK: I felt sick to my stomach for starters. It’s not a good feeling knowing you know that stuff you did was part of the cause of what happened to him, right? So definitely not a good feeling putting that kind of injury on a person or being part of the reason behind it and it definitely feels bad. It's bittersweet winning the title, but injuring somebody to that extent is definitely not good.

HM: Now, can you tell us whether you or David Whittom had any sort of pre-fight medical exams to make sure that you were up for the fight?

GK: Oh yeah. Yeah. They're very thorough actually. There is a full medical. It is three pages long of stuff. And then there's all the blood work. New Brunswick actually has like least twice as many as most commissions for the blood work. Usually it's just HIV, Hep C, Hep B and Syphilis, but there was a whole bunch more to that. So they are very thorough and then there's a pre-fight medical also where you have another medical. So yeah, it’s very thorough.

HM: Right. And does anyone check you out after the fight?

GK: Oh yeah. Yeah, like the doctor after the fight like they ask you questions. And there's a doctor who looks you over after the fight making sure everything's OK. And if you have any physical wounds they’ll look into them. Usually it’s a lot of cuts and stuff, right?

HM: Right. So what is the latest that you heard about David Whittom’s condition?

GK: Just that he is in a medical-induced coma and they won't know anything. He's in stable condition, but in a medically-induced coma and they should know more a few days when they do another C.T. scan. This is just stuff that I have been told and saw on Facebook and stuff.

HM: You know you said you felt sick about this. I'm just I mean if you could say anything to him now or to his family is there anything you'd like to say?

GK: Well, I mean again, I definitely am sending my prayers for his recovery and stuff. I mean I'm definitely sorry about it. But I mean I don't want to say like that I'm sorry for you know winning the fight. I'm sorry for what happened and how it happened. But yeah, I’m definitely praying for and get well and make a full recovery. I just hope everything works out good for him.

HM: Well, look, I appreciate you talking with us about this about this. Thank you very much.

GK: Thank you.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

JD: We reached boxer Gary Copas in Saskatoon. On Saturday, Mr. Copas won the Canadian Professional Boxing Council cruiserweight championship in Fredericton. His opponent, New Brunswick boxer David Whittom, remains in hospital in St. John with a traumatic brain injury.

[Music: Violin]

Shark boat

JD: Terry Selwood is badly bruised and bleeding, but he has a surprisingly positive attitude about his very close encounter with a great white shark this past weekend. The 73-year-old Australian fisherman was out on his boat, in his usual spot near Evans Head in New South Wales, when suddenly the shark was just right there, next to him, on his boat. Here is Mr. Selwood describing that experience to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

SOUNDCLIP

TERRY SELWOOD: I don't think this is a big deal. in the bloody thing just jumped in me boat.

MALE VOICE: Well, tell us how far off shore were you?

TS: About a kilometer that's all. I was fishing in 40 foot water.

MALE VOICE: And that's your usual spot. How many year have you been going out there?

TS: I lost count. I've been married 50 years, so I’d say 50 years. It would be before that anyway.

MALE VOCE: First of all, describe for us what it was like when this happened? Was it a pretty calm day?

TS: It was just flat as a tack and I was just sitting on me ass and I had a hand-line over the side of the boat at both sides. There was no current. It was hanging straight down and the hand-line on the right hand side made a bit of a jump. I said oh, I’ve got a bite! And I hopped up, I tuched the hand-line and I just caught a blur in the corner of my eye. I just out of instinct threw my right arm up and this thing him me on the forearm and spun me around and knocked me off me feet. And I fell on the floor on me hands and knees and this thing was beside me. And I looked over and I said oh, a bloody shark. So I just favored doing a mad dance around him. He was thrashing everywhere, so I got up as quick as I could, I grabbed the rocket launcher up the top and I climbed up on the gunnel and I looked down and said, “I’ll be buggled! There’s a shark in me boat!”

MALE VOICE: And so, were you bleed pretty badly?

TS: I thought he actually broke my arm, but he just badly bruised it and tore the skin off. I took a hanky out of my pocket and wrapped it around as tight as I could to stop the bleeding a bit. And I just hung on, grabbed me little radio and called the Coast Guard. They come and pick me up.

MALE VOICE: Did you tell him what had happened?

TS: Yeah, and they didn't think it was true.

MALE VOICE: What did the say when they got there?

TS: Oh my God, look at that! A shark in your boat!

MALE VOICE: You didn't catch it and chuck it in there. This actually jumped out of the water into your boat.

TS: I use a 30 pound hand-line fishing. Now, that thing was 2.7 long and 200 kilos or 400 pounds. That's too big for me to pull in on a hand-line.

MALE VOICE: And so when you were there was it kind of looking at you in the eyes? Where were you in relation to it?

TS: I didn’t give it a chance to look in me eyes. I wanted to get up and get on top of the gunnel because it was thrashing around madly. Destroying anything that was loose in the boat. It just destroyed that and it thrashed around for a while and then it stopped and I just stood there and watched it. I can understand he was just a wild creature out of his comfort zone.

JD: Terry Selwood, speaking with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation about his very close encounter with a shark on the weekend.

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Part 3: Wapekeka report, green crabs flag penny

Wapekeka report

Guest: Joshua Frogg

JD: The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal is chastising the federal government yet again, for letting down Indigenous children. On Friday, the tribunal released a 52 page ruling. It says the government's limited implementation of Jordan's Principle may have contributed to the suicides of two young girls in Wapekeka First Nation earlier this year. Jordan's Principle holds that Indigenous children should immediately get the health and welfare services they need, regardless of disputes over which jurisdiction should pay. Wapekeka First Nation had applied for suicide prevention months before 12-year-olds Jolynn Winter and Chantel Fox took their own lives in January. That application was denied. Joshua Frogg is the band manager for Wapekeka First Nation. He is also the uncle of Chantel Fox. We reached him today in Sioux Lookout, Ontario.

HM: Joshua Frogg, how has your community been coping since the deaths of these two young girls in January?

JOSHUA FROOG: It's been very difficult and challenging. We've had continuous counsellors come in on a rotating basis. It's affected everybody in the community.

HM: What did you think when you heard the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal had ruled that while Wapekeka First Nation was let down by the federal government?

JF: I agree with it. We were very upfront and clear what we intended to do and it was disappointing that the federal government was not involved at the beginning.

HM: Your community applied for that suicide prevention funding last summer before these two girls, Jolynn Winter and your own niece Chantel Fox, their lives. What did you see in the community that led you to apply for that funding?

JF: We applied for funding in terms of trying to prevent suicides and I think we were let down.

HM: And you expected that suicides might be imminent because you had uncovered a suicide pact?

JF: Yes. We were very clear about why we intended to do address the issue.

HM: So why was the request denied?

JF: The first thing that they said was it was an awkward time in their funding cycle. I couldn't understand it. I said it’s an emergency and I think it should have been addressed and it wasn't. By now, they should know that an issue like that is serious and we take it seriously.

HM: What do you think that funding might have done if you'd gotten it at the time?

JF: Well, our focus is on prevention and addressing the immediate issues at hand, which was that pact and monitoring. That's what we wanted to put in place.

HM: I think everyone was shocked not just by the deaths in and of themselves, but the fact that these girls were just 12-years-old. What is the range of ages that you're dealing with when you're looking at this this threat of suicide in the community?

JF: Some are younger than that. We're looking at the ideations as well. It’s an alarming issue when you're dealing with children that are as young as eight talking about suicide. Some of it has to do with the sexual abuse in the community and drinking and the drugs and just the negative social impact that that's happening in all our communities.

HM: After the suicides of Jolynn and Chantel, an anonymous donor came forward and pledged $380,000 to the community. What happened to that pledge?

JF: We were excited at the beginning and hed did come through with a $30,000 donation, which we used to promptly hire a councillor. But under the very immediate crisis issue and I'm not sure why he reneged on his promise.

HM: The donor pulled out and you only got $30,000 of that $380,000?

JF: Yeah, that’s all we got. We were devastated by it. We could have used the money to help our people and help other communities.

HM: What kind of funding is your community receiving now for suicide prevention and counselling services?

JF: The funding that Health Canada talked about earlier hasn't reached our community. We've hired four of the mental health youth counselors, but we’re paying them from our own sources. And the funding mechanism through Health Canada is very slow. I did meet with one of the officials and they said that we probably will get it June. And this is the normal thing that we deal with when we deal with government. Our people have always tried to maintain a positive attitude that eventually the funding will come. It's frustrating that it is just how we're dealt with. We're talking about the lives of our children, the health the safety of our children and the government doesn't see that. So it’s frustrating.

HM: This is the third time the federal government has been told by the Human Rights Tribunal that it needs to comply with Jordan's Principle, which requires the first government that gets contacted to provide support for First Nation needs. Why do you think that it's taking all these repeated urgings?

JF: I'm not sure. I sat right across from our Prime Minister Trudeau and tried to explain to him that we need help. And he said help is on the way. Yeah it is, it this must be on the way. That’s all I can say.

HM: How would you describe the situation Wapekeka First Nation now? Is it any different than it was in January when this tragedy occurred?

JF: We're struggling. We have children that are in different parts of the country and are monitored on a 24/7 basis. And we have counselors that come in on a rotating basis. We’re recovering, but it's a slow process. And we're still dealing with attempts almost on a weekly basis. So it's alarming and concerning. It’s affecting our whole community.

HM: How are you personally coping with the loss of your niece, Chantel?

JF: I try to help other people. And to me, that helps me in a way. You never get over the grief and you just learn to live with it. That's all I can do.

HM: I'm very sorry both for your loss and the ongoing issues that you're having to deal with. Thank you for talking with us.

JF: OK. Thanks.

HM: I appreciate it. Bye bye.

JF: Bye.

JD: Joshua Frogg is the band manager for Wapekeka First Nation. We reached him in Sioux Lookout. Health Minister Jean Philpott and Indigenous Affairs Minister Carolyn Bennett said Friday that they are reviewing the Human Rights Tribunal ruling and that quote, “The well-being of First Nations children and families is a priority for the government of Canada.” Unquote.

[Music: Piano]

Zbigniew Brzezinski obit

JD: Zbigniew Brzezinski was not American-born, but as an exile from post-World War II Europe, he greatly shaped U.S. foreign policy. Mr. Brzezinski died Friday in Virginia. He was 89-years-old. He was born in Poland. And in his adopted home, he was a Democrat. But Mr. Brzezinski was also a hawk and one of America's most influential Cold-War warriors. He was national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter during the Iran hostage crisis and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the late 1970s. And long afterward, Mr. Brzezinski remained in the halls of power in Washington. In recent times, first as an adviser to President George W. Bush and then as an adviser to President Barack Obama. On December the 30th of 2008, during the transition between Bush and Obama, he had this exchange with Joe Scarborough, host of the MSNBC program “Morning Joe”. At the time, the Israeli army had just launched “Operation Cast Lead” on the Gaza Strip. Here's part of the conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JOE SCARBOROUGH: What do we do the next time Israel is attacked? What we do at that point?

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: That’s the wrong question.

JS: No, that's not the wrong question because wenever get the condemnation of Hamas or Hezbollah. It's always after Israel responds to defending itself.

ZB: No, it’s not. The right question is what do we do to avoid a breakdown? By being engaged seriously in the peace process and for the last eight years we haven't been.

JS: You can't blame what is happening in Israel right now on the Bush administration.

ZB: Yes, you can.

JS: No, you can’t. Let's go back to 2000, Dr. Brzezinski. You and I both know Bill Clinton gave Arafat and the Palestinians everything they could have wanted.

ZB: You know you have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it's almost embarrassing to listen to you.

JS: Oh, is it?

ZB: If you were to look more closely at what happened in the Clinton Camp David discussions you would know that what you have just said is absolutely wrong. And it wasn't rejected. The negotiations went on in Taba and then there were elections in Israel and Sharon came in and everything got aborted. In the last eight years, we had a policy in which we have proclaimed an interest in peace. But the United States never inserted itself. So the issue that Obama faces is going to be sitting there issuing condemnations of what they saw from Hamas or Israel or anybody else? Are we going to be seriously engaged in that peace process? That is the question.

JS: We have another block and I'm very excited about that because I'm stunningly superficial. Chief, I look forward to you educating me and the rest of America and the rest of the foreign policy community who have said time and again Arafat walked away from the best deal he could have got. And that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity.

ZB: You’re repeating slogans. He did not walk away.

FEMALE VOICE: OK, we’ll finish this after the break.

ZB: What he said was I'm going to take the proposal to all of the Arab capitals and see how they react because the proposals were controversial. And then negotiations went on even after Christmas where Clinton and Arafat met. And they were going on in Taba in January after Clinton was already leaving office and then the process got aborted. IT is helpful to know a little bit.

JS: It's very exciting, Chief that you know things that the rest of the international community doesn’t.

ZB: If you’re going to judge your knowledge by this sort of collective standard of 300 million people then don't be surprised that you're embarrassed.

JS: Actually, I'm not embarrassed. I read the New York Times, the Washington Post and Foreign Affairs. You I'm going to do? I'm going to throw those away and any time I have a question that I'm going to call you up.

FEMALE VOICE: Let us get a break here and we’ll come back.

JS: I’ll do that and I'll throw out papers and Foreign Affairs and everything else I read.

JD: That was Zbigniew Brzezinski speaking — kind of — with Joe Scarborough, host of the MSNBC program “Morning Joe”. That's from December the 30th of 2008. Zbigniew Brzezinski died Friday. He was 89-years-old.

[Music: Classical guitar]

Green crabs

Guest: Cynthia Mackenzie

JD: They have East Coast fishermen worried about one of their most important catches. They're green and they are mean and they are a hybrid version of an invasive green crab. They have been ravaging some fishing grounds off Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, scientists are looking for ways to control the invaders to protect the stock of lobsters. Cynthia Mackenzie is a scientist with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We reached her in St. John's.

HM: Ms. Mackenzie, describe these crabs for us and how they might differ from the crabs we'd see at an all-you-can-eat buffet?

CYNTHIA MACKENZIE: Well, these crabs are actually very vicious. They're relatively small compared to something you'd find in a buffet. There's not really much meat on them, so they're not particularly tasty.

HM: And when you describe them as aggressive how do you see that play out?

CM: Well, see that’s the thing. As I said, they're quite small and so what crabs will do is display at you. They will lift up their claws at you and act like they're going to come at you. And I think you've probably seen lobster do that sort of thing. So aggressive crustaceans will display their claws as a sign of aggression and then if their competitor backs down and they see them as food. And if they display back then they're not too sure what to do. And so that's exactly what the lobsters are finding here is that they're there they're food that they would normally eat is the native rock crab. And about the size, maybe a little bit bigger, than your green crab and they're kind of a reddish-brown almost like a rock. And so they basically cower in the corner when they're displayed at and so green crab can certainly, like a bully, attack rock crabs. And actually, we’re finding areas where the rock crab used to be all over the place the green crab have pretty much taken over.

HM: And that aggression do you see that even towards humans like when you try to take them out of a net?

CM: Absolutely. I've seen people you know sort of poke at them with an oar and they just latch on to the oar like crazy. And so even the smallest little ones will display at you and attack and they have no fear whatsoever. And so you know it's actually quite disconcerting to see these little guys coming after you. And they have a good pinch too. I mean they really have a bit of a pinch. And, unlike the native crabs, they also can reach behind. And so normally where you would pick up a crab just by picking up either side of the carpus they can reach behind and grab you.

HM: Oh, that's nasty.

CM: It is nasty and not only that, we've seen seagulls and ducks where the crabs have reached around behind them and grabbed the leg.

HM: Really?

CM: And so I think the seabirds are having a little trouble getting used to the idea of a crab that can sort of grab back.

HM: And they’re a concern to lobster fishermen. What kind of effect are they having on that fishery?

CM: Well, see that's the thing. And we didn't really see it early on, but as they got more and more into the area and spread out the lobster fish we're finding them in their traps. And they lead to multiple problems actually they can go in to traps or you know built for lobster and so the green crab can easily get in and out. And they can go in and eat the bait or if they happen to have a lobster trapped there's been cases where they've ganged up on them. And here you have a trapped lobster. And so all you'd find left at the end is a tail or something. And so they do going up, but that's within the trap. What we're concerned about is that they're going to eat juvenile lobster and even the spawn as they are being released. Because they basically eat anything that they can find and so if that's what's available then that's what they'll eat. And so I think that's the concern really by the fish harvesters and the lobster fishermen is that it's not even the effect they're having on the trapped themselves, which is you know certainly seen. But the real concern is the affect they may be having on the future generations of lobster.

HM: So what do you have to do to prevent that?

CM: Well, a lot of it is letting people know that this is not your average kind of crab. This is not a crab you're used to. This is something that can live in areas that are not really expected and can survive being moved back and forth with ways that people are not expecting. Another way is to make sure that the gear is clean and not moved. We've actually tried to work with licensing and things to make sure that there's no movement of gear between bays to keep that from happening. But that's the sort of thing that we're trying to prevent the actual introduction between bays. But we're also providing licenses to mostly lobster fishermen, who are most affected. And so they're allowed to trap and remove them from the system as well as they can because they see that it's going to be a problem.

HM: What did they do with that catch?

CM: Mostly they're destroyed through freezing or just crushing. And I'm told that they make a very nice compost. And so we're hoping that by removing the really large ones, then the smaller ones — say less than say 38 millimeters — the other predators that would be larger than them like lobster and rock crab and things and even shorebirds would realize that the smaller ones can be prey.

HM: OK. Well, thanks for telling us about it.

CM: Oh, you're welcome.

HM: Bye.

CM: My pleasure.

JD: Cynthia Mackenzie is a scientist with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We reached her in St. John's.

[Music: Country]

Flag penny

Guest: Travis Casagrande

JD: You might have a jar of the now discontinued penny — a jar full of them — sitting around your house somewhere. Now, the Royal Canadian Mint website says quote, “the penny will retain its value indefinitely,” so you can still roll them if you feel like getting ten bucks and carpal tunnel. Or, you can do what one Ontario researcher did with a penny and carve a very, very, very, small three-dimensional Canadian flag on it. Travis Casagrande is with the Canadian Center for Electron Microscopy at McMaster University. We reached him in Hamilton, Ontario.

HM: Travis Casagrande, I have a penny in my hand right now. If someone wants to look at your penny with the naked eye what would they see that's different than the one I have?

TRAVIS CASAGRANDE: Nothing at all.

HM: Really nothing?

TG: Yeah, there's no sign of it with the naked eye.

HM: Wow. So if I zoomed in on the penny with a microscope. First of all, how much would I have to zoom and then what would I see?

TG: With a microscope that uses light, at maybe 100 times magnification you could see the hole that I have in the position of the middle branch of the letter E on one cent.

HM: At the top of the penny?

TG: Right. To actually see the structure that I've built here, you need an electron microscope.

HM: So how small is the actual hole and then the engraving within it?

TG: The hole diameter is roughly one-third of the diameter of a human hair. And then inside that I have a very small pole, which has a diameter of about 100 times smaller than human hair. At the top of that pole, I have a rectangle and I have etched in the Canadian flag into it.

HM: We did this interview last year with a micro artist in the United Kingdom. He’d engraved the Lord's Prayer on the head of a pin. And he told us that he had these certain restrictions: he'd only work at night when there was no traffic nearby. He actually took pills to slow his heartbeat. And then he tied his arms to the table so that he could do the engravings with the kind of precision that he needed. Do you have to go to any of those kinds of lengths?

TG: No, that would be much more difficult than what I'm doing. I am working at a computer station that has computer screens, keyboard, mouse and then a lot of extra knobs and dials. One of the controllers that I have is actually a Sony PlayStation controller that controls a very small mechanical needle, which I used to transfer the rectangle to the pole to raise the flag. But there's no extreme dexterity control that I need here.

HM: So are you carving it in real time? Or do you preprogram it and then it follows your commands?

TG: A lot of it is I will put down a shape and then the instrument will dig around and form that shape as a whole. So it's not really a lot where I'm sitting back and waiting. But it's not like I have to guide the beam like a pen or a laser by hand. I designate a shape and it will execute that.

HM: And you can see it on a screen in front of you?

TG: Yeah, I can watch it because this ion beam machine is inside an electron microscope. So I can watch it with the electron microscope while the ion beam is doing the work of removing material.

HM: So tell us more about this focused ion beam microscope? How it works and I guess what you would normally use it for?

TG: OK, so the focused ion beam combines the visual imaging abilities of an electron microscope with the material removal and deposition abilities of an ion beam, which is a beam of charged gallium ions. This enables us typically to find precise locations within materials research. And we can manipulate those features and extract them or analyze them. So one of the most common tasks is taking out a very specific region of interest to the materials researcher and attaching it to a special holder that allows it to fit inside a transmission electron microscope. And that's an instrument that's capable of imaging resolutions down to the size of individual atoms. And the method for that imaging requires that the sample of material is extremely thin: around 5o nanometers, which is about 20 times smaller than the flag pole that I have there.

HM: Wow.

TG: So it has to be that thin for the electron beam about microscope to pass through it.

HM: What was your point in carving the penny?

TG: We wanted to demonstrate or showcase some of our science instruments here. It’s a good recruiting tool to get science outreach and to get electron microscopes and materials research out in the public as a topic of conversation. And we thought that combining with Canada 150 would be quite interesting because we were a national facility, so having a national focus is a good thing for us.

HM: It clearly worked. You’re getting the attention that you wanted.

TG: Yeah, a lot more than I thought it would actually.

HM: Why a penny?

TG: I wanted the surface or the material to have some kind of Canadian connotation. I think the ideal choice I would pick something like a beaver toothed or a moose antler, but I don't have those readily available. I’m fresh out of beaver teeth, so a penny was a pretty good compromise. It’s out of circulation, which is probably a good thing. And it’s a material that behaves quite well the focused ion beam.

HM: All right. We'll leave it there, Travis. Thank you.

TG: You're welcome. Good to be here.

HM: Nice to talk to you. Bye.

TG: Thank you. Bye, Helen.

JD: Travis Casagrande is a research engineer with the Canadian Center for Electron Microscopy. We reached Mr. Casagrande at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario.

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May 29, 2017 episode transcript

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