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The AIH Transcript for February 23, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

HM: Disarming honesty. After his girlfriend is killed on live television, a former TV reporter runs for office – advocating for nuanced gun-control policies he believes could save lives.

JD: Party favouring. An Iowa state senator wants universities to grill potential professors about their politics during job interviews – to ensure Republicans and Democrats are equally represented at the lectern.

HM: First up to throw for a first down. When the late Bernie Custis took the field for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats in 1951, he became the first-ever black quarterback in professional football.

JD: Things worked out in the long run – but not after it. Thanks to the investigative work of an online detective, the woman who came second in a Florida half-marathon is forced to admit she didn't deserve to be runner-up.

HM: He fought the law – and Hulk Hogan. A look at the complicated life of John Croitoru biker gang member and professional wrestler, who died this week in a Toronto halfway house.

JD: And...she spends a lot of time on horseback. Not riding horses, though – massaging them. And apparently, that rubs authorities in Tennessee the wrong way, because they've ordered her to stop.
As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that hopes she can find stable employment.

[Music]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Roanoke shooting politician, Bernie Custis obit, horse massager

Roanoke shooting politician

Guest: Chris Hurst

JEFF DOUGLAS: Chris Hurst and his girlfriend Alison Parker met at work. They were both reporters at WDBJ7, a TV news station in Roanoke, Virginia.
In August of 2015, they had just moved in together. Ms. Parker went out to do a story at a nearby chamber of commerce. She was live on-air when she was shot dead by a former co-worker. She was just 24 years old.
The gunman also killed her cameraman, before turning the gun on himself.
Now, Chris Hurst is running for office on a unique gun control platform, against an NRA-endorsed Republican incumbent. We reached Chris Hurst in Blacksburg, Virginia.

HELEN MANN: Chris Hurst, when did you decide to quit your news job at the station where you had worked with your girlfriend Alison Parker?

CHRIS HURST: It was something that I had been thinking about for a while. It was just very emotionally difficult for me to continue to go and work every single day to the newsroom where you know, we fell in love with each other and first started flirting with each other, and then where you know they told me that she was dead. So I I've been thinking about it for a while but I didn't want to leave the area because after it happened, the support from the community was overwhelming and the support all around the country and around the world. But it’s the people here who really gave me strength and support and I didn't want to leave them. I didn't want to run away and go do something else somewhere.

HELEN MANN: You say you were at the newsroom when she died. How was the news broken to you?

CH: I was woken up about 7:00 o'clock that morning and they told me that they didn't know what was going on, that they thought it might be a shooting. And so my first call was to Alison, and she never would have let it go to voicemail if she was able to pick up the phone. So when she didn't pick up, I knew something was wrong. And then I called the sheriff when I was driving into the television station because that's where they told me to go and the sheriff intimated to me that there was something wrong. So I kind of had an idea almost as soon as I woke up, but it was two hours later in the television station when the general manager of the TV station told me that she was dead.

HM: How long after that did you return to actively reporting?

CH: About 10 days. And I did. I still try to be very active in reporting you know. That was something that Alison and I bonded over, that's what we admired in each other. And she had a sustained level of effort that I had never seen before and haven't seen since and that was something that really made me fall in love with her was her attitude and her effort. Those were the things that she was able to control. And when I lost all control of my life, all I wanted was control back. And I remember the way she approached every day and said, you know I can change my attitude, I can change my effort, and I look inward instead of blaming everybody else for what happened.

HM: You know we all know as a reporter, you don't know what stories you're going to cover from day to day. You get assigned to something as it happens. What was it like for you to be back on the job in the months after Alison died?

CH: It was strange. What really started to chip away at me was the little things that just were constant reminders that she was gone and that she had been murdered. Watching the last 10 minutes of a television program before the 11 o'clock news and having it and in some kind of gunfight as typically happens at the end of broadcast dramas was re-traumatizing for me, to hear those gunshots, very similar to the gunshots from the videos of her death.
You know, in television when a story is dropped for time, we say that that story is dead, or we've had to kill it, every single time a producer got in my ear and said you know “This story is dead” or “We're killing this story,” it was another subtle reminder. So those kinds of things started to chip away my humanity and I didn't want to become numb to everything in order to live my life.

HM: So you've decided to move on. You are entering politics. Why state office?

CH: Because I think it really allows you to stay connected with your community, with the people who are in this area. When I was in journalism, I had plenty of people stopping me in the supermarket or at the gas station telling me that they didn't like the tie that I was wearing or that they really did appreciate the story or the series that I had worked on. And I would never want to lose that connection to the people that I'm beholden to.

HM: I know you have a broad platform in your run for the Virginia House of Delegates. But I'd like to ask you specifically about your proposed gun control policies. What do you have in mind?

CH: Well I don't dislike people because they like guns, and I'm not outraged that Allison was murdered because she was shot and killed. I'm outraged because she was murdered. So I think that there are things that we can do in the United States and at the state level in Virginia to reduce the amount of people who are dying from a gun. And I think that we really need to have an extended focus on the vast majority of people who die with a gun, which is from suicide.

HM: Now your proposals though are different from a lot of the conventional gun control advocate policies. What would you specifically like to see done?

CH: I think anything that we can do to better identify dangerousness, the level at which someone becomes a threat to themselves or someone else, and then have appropriate due process and law enforcement protocols to remove any type of dangerous tool that might be at their disposal to help them complete their act.
I have no intention of trying to ban or prohibit any type of class of weapon or anything like that. I would never want to legislate someone's way of life or the way they were brought up. But I do think that there is work that we could do through gun violence protective order to be able to reasonably, for a set amount of time, remove a gun from a dangerous situation.

HM: Yes so you're talking not about permanent gun control you're talking about limiting access to guns for people when they are in certain circumstances. What circumstances are those?

CH: Well that's a criteria that mental health professionals and law enforcement help determine a as well as the magistrate or judge. Have they displayed documented behavior that shows a violent tendency? Have they said anything that may outline that they are planning to attempt suicide? There are often times things that are said or done leading up to an incident of violence or suicide where we could take a step back and say OK let's look at this whole situation and maybe we can remove a firearm from the situation, you know. Nobody just snaps.
And that was one thing that started to really frustrate me in television news, was whenever these incidents occur, the press goes to the scene, they interview the neighbor and say “Oh, well he was a great guy. He must have just snapped.” That's very very rarely the case. No one just snaps. There's always something that is occurring in a pattern. And the more that we can do to identify that pattern and see if that means that they're dangerous, then I think that we could temporarily for a time remove that firearm from the equation.

HM: What do you think Alison would have thought about your decision to run for public office?

CH: She would have said, “Right on. Go for it sweetie.” She would have been very supportive of it. You know, we had some talks about maybe eventually transitioning out of journalism and trying to become more active civically. She thought that it would been very cool to have been a senator's wife. I told her I would have much rather been senator’s husband, but she would have been great at it.

HM: Well, we're grateful you're willing to remember her with us and also to share your own plans for the future. Thank you for talking to us.

CH: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

JD: We reached Chris Hurst in Blacksburg, Virginia. For more on the story and to see photographs of Mr. Hurst with Alison Parker, go to our Web site cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Bernie Custis obituary

Guest: John Williams Jr.

JD: He was the first black quarterback to go pro in North America. In 1951, Bernie Custis took the field as a Hamilton Tiger-Cat, just four years after Jackie Robinson made history in Major League Baseball. A few years later, Mr. Custis won a Grey Cup with the Ti-Cats and he went on to have a long career as a coach. He was inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame in 1994. Bernie Custers died today. He was 88 years old. John Williams Jr. is himself a former Ti-Cat. He was also a close family friend of Bernie Custis. We reached Mr. Williams in Hamilton, Ontario.

HM: Mr. Williams, First of all I'm very sorry for your loss.

JOHN WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you.

HM: What do you remember about Bernie Costas today.

JW: I'm remembering the positive impact that he had on so many people. You know Bernie was a player. He was a coach and mentor to hundreds and hundreds of kids. So, you know today I'm looking back on the legacy he left behind.

HM: What was he like as a man? As a friend?

JW: As a man and as a friend he was always just my uncle. He’s been around ever since. You know, I can remember. Very kind, a great sense of humor, very laid back and just somebody that you want to be around.

HM: How did Bernie Costas get into football in the first place?

JW: Bernie Custis was a student athlete was in Philadelphia, very successful. And he was recruited to play at Syracuse University as a quarterback in 1948 to 1950. You know he played in Syracuse in the time that a lot of adversity you know, one of only a few you know African-American players on the roster, but thrived when he was in the game and set a lot of records.

HM: Why did he decide to come to Canada to play in the CFL?

JW: He was actually drafted into the NFL by the Cleveland Browns. And on the recommendation of his coach, Paul Brown, said you know, you have a lot of athletic ability Bernie, but I think people are ready for a black quarterback right now, but that there are places in Canada that we are more accepting.

HM: So there really were no African-Americans playing as quarterbacks in the U.S. at that point?

JW: No there wasn't. Bernie Custis was the first African-American quarterback in professional football history.

HM: And when his coach said he didn't think the game was ready, was that the fans, was that fellow athletes? Do you have any sense of what he meant?

JW: Yes I think that was, it was just the time. You know I think it was a lot of stereotypes about you know black players and perceptions of the black athlete just couldn't play the quarterback position. And you know it was it was a very heated with what was going on in the country. And you know at that time there was Bernie wasn't the only black player that was going through this. A lot of African Americans, players that you know, were pioneers?

HM: Why did Bernie come to Hamilton, Ontario?

JW: I think that was just the first place that Brown mentioned to them. He said Hamilton. He didn't… he didn't know exactly where he was going, he didn't know what kind of you know clothes to pack. But he got on the train and he headed to Hamilton. Before you know it, the first person he saw, he looked around and he said there was only one other black person he saw. And it turns out it was Lincoln Alexander.

HM: Wow. So how did fans in Hamilton respond to a black quarterback?

JW: You know he had his adversities and Canada isn't perfect, and you know there's a lot of racism in Canada at that time. But I think it was you know just a different country, and the CFL is a different league. You know, more accepting and had you know, open arms when it comes to you know equality and diversity. Not to say that they don't have their problems. But you know he was a little bit more accepted at that position, you know than he was in the NFL at that time and he thrived because of it. Funny enough, he only played one season as a quarterback and he got turned into a halfback. But I think it's, when I talk about the legacy, it's the people that came after Bernie. You know the Chuck Ealeys, the Warren Moons, you know, the Damon Allen. You know, they were able to play those positions, the quarterback positions because of Bernie Custis.

HM: And when Bernie Custis was a halfback, his team won the Grey Cup.

JW: Yeah. They did. He really even have a real long career. He only played for four or five years. But forever remember because of the things that he did, you know, on the field, and I think even more so off the field, what he was able to accomplish as a coach, you know being a coach at McMaster University. Having a lot of success there. Sheridan College, when they had a team.
You know he’s in the CFL hall of fame, he’s in the Syracuse University Hall of Fame, he’s in the McMaster University Hall of Fame. So he was able to coach a lot of people.

HM: Your dad and Bernie Custis were close friends, so I guess you knew these stories growing up. What was that like for you? How do you think it maybe influenced the person and the player you became?

JW: I think it wasn't as much you know what he said. I think it was just watching these two, you know African-American men to go on to be so successful. You know, Bernie was a, you know, educator for over 30 years in the Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board as a principal. You know, so when you think about Bernie, a lot of people just think athletics, but you think about all the people that you know, the teachers and educators that came into contact with and the legacy that is leaving with them.
It's funny it's like a day goes by where I don't run into somebody that he touched. Whether it be a teacher or whether it be an athlete.

HM: You know, given that everything he accomplished, all those Hall of Fames that you mentioned to us, and yet he isn't really a household name. Why do you think that is?

JW: You know, I think that's disappointing and that was one of the reasons why you know Bill Armstrong and myself you know made the movie Gridiron Underground which is a documentary about Bernie Custis and African-American players like Bernie Custis that came to this country, that came to Canada and the CFL. To be given those opportunities, right, to play a game and play a sport that they love that they just weren't getting in America at that time.
And you know, it's kind of sad you know people, young kids nowadays, you know, players in the CFL, they don't know who Bernie is. And it’s sad because this is you know… and it's sad because you know these are the kind of guys that were pioneers and paved the way. Ad they're able to play the game today, you know because of Bernie Custis and John Williams and Bruce Smith and Chuck Ealey and the players that came before them. So, you know it's a sad time you know, with Bernie passing, but I think it's also appropriate. It's an appropriate month. You know, where we celebrate the accomplishments of so many great you know African-American men and women that you know he leaves us and goes on to the next life.

HM: John Williams Jr. thank you so much for sharing your memories and your thoughts with us. We appreciate it.

JW: Thank you.

HM: OK, bye.

JW: OK, bye.

JD: John Williams Jr. is a former Hamilton Tiger-Cat and a close family friend of Bernie Custis. We reached Mr. Williams in Hamilton, Ontario. Bernie Custis was the first African-American quarterback in professional football. He died today. He was 88 years old.

[Music]

Kellyanne Conway

JD: For a change, instead of being interrupted by questions from a baffled interviewer, Kellyanne Conway was interrupted by applause. But U.S. president Donald Trump's counselor was solidly solidly in her element at the Conservative Political Action Conference or C-PAC in Maryland, a gathering of conservative Americans looking for inspiration and affirmation about the new Republican government that they elected in November. While on stage, Ms. Conway set out some of her ideas about equality. Here she is speaking earlier today with Fox News contributor Mercedes Schlapp at C-PAC.

SOUNDCLIP

KELLYANNE CONWAY: I would tell my three daughters, and your daughters or you, that the job for first female President of the United States remains open. So go for it.

MERCEDES SCHLAPP: So there was this big women's march. The Democrats all claim that all women pretty much, should be Democrats. I think one of the things you've done very effectively is explain how women belong in the Conservative movement. That actually they are what I would call conservative feminism. How would you explain that?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Well I would say this generation, particularly the younger people, don't really like labels, and we're not necessarily joiners or liking to label ourselves. And that's great in its own right. So I don't know about calling yourself a feminist. I also for me, it's difficult for me to call myself a feminist in the classic sense, because it seems to be very anti-male and it certainly is very pro-abortion in this context. And I'm neither anti-male or pro-abortion.
So there's an individual feminism if you will, that you make your own choices. Mercedes, I look at myself as a product of my choices, not a victim of my circumstances. And that’s really to me what conservative feminism is all about.
My mother didn't feel sorry for herself. She was left with no child support, no alimony, at a very young age, with a child to raise, a high school education. And she just figured it out. She didn't complain, she didn't rely upon government. She relied upon her own skillset, her own self-confidence, her own drive and moxie, and her own duty to me and her. And she relied upon her family and her faith. And I believe those are timeless lessons and timeless opportunities for all women in similar circumstances and situations. And I would just say, I mean one thing that's been a little bit disappointing and revealing, that I hope we'll get better, is turns out that a lot of women just have a problem with women in power. You know this whole sisterhood, this whole “Let's go march for women's rights” and you know, just constantly talking about what women look like or what they wear or making fun of their choices, or presuming that they're not as powerful as the men around, this presumptive negativity about women and power, I think is very unfortunate because let's just try to access that and have a conversation about it rather than a confrontation about it.

JD: That was Kellyanne Conway counselor to us President Donald Trump speaking earlier today with Fox News contributor Mercedes Schlapp at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Maryland.

[Music]

Guest: Laurie Wheeler

JD: Have you ever heard of the job title “horse massager”? As in a person who massages horses.
Well turns out, the Tennessee Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners hasn't heard of that job before either. And when they did, they didn't like the sound of it. The vet board has sent Laurie Wheeler, perhaps the only horse massager in all of Tennessee, a cease and desist letter demanding she stop massaging horses. We reached Laurie Wheeler in Franklin, Tennessee.

HM: Laurie Wheeler How did that come to this state board's attention that you were massaging horses?

LAURIE WHEELER: Well interesting. I started treating horses back in 2010. And when all of my friends and family started asking me to treat them, I thought you know what, I really want to do this. And the only way to do this is to get a license. So I decided to continue my passion and start treating people as well, so I went to school, got my licensure. And in that process I was told that one of my letters of recommendation that I needed to submit from my vet was and he basically said that he had committed, he had seen that my commitment in my work with equine MFR and that gave them the red flag. The massage board had a red flag against me, and said, “You know what? You cannot do that. So we are filing a complaint against you for practicing veterinary medicine without a license.”

HM: And how did the vet board then respond?

LW: A couple of months after that, I got a cease and desist letter from the vet board.

HM: Did they say what it is about you massaging the horses that they're opposed to?

LW: They never asked to me. They never said anything. All that they said was that is veterinarian medicine and that I can do that. I just kept… I emailed their attorney and I asked you know, what would happen if I continued practicing equine massage? He basically wrote me back and said, “It's a class B misdemeanor,” OK so that means jail. And that it wouldn't help to petition the board because the practice of Veterinary Medicine basically is statutory.
And what I do want to say too is the majority of the veterinarians in middle Tennessee support what I do. So that's what I don't understand is the disconnect between the local veterinarian veterinarians and the vet board.

HM: I think we need a mental picture of how horse massaging actually works. Can you describe what you do for us?

LW: Oh my gosh. What's so amazing about horses is they'll tell you, they're so intuitive and they will communicate with you. I mean if you were paying attention, they will let you know where they hurt. And they hurt everywhere. You know their back end, their pelvis is often out of alignment. If they have a lameness in the back right hind, you know that the front left is also going to be affected because they're compensating. You know, you've got people yanking and banking on their heads, and pulling on the reins, and so that's extremely sensitive. If their teeth aren't adjusted correctly their mouths are always huge issues. Their necks, their heads are so heavy that the neck area is often restricted. And I mean not even I'm not even talking about their feet and their legs. I mean all of that weight on their on their body and then it's what people expect them to do for them.

HM: How did you get into this?

LW: I got into this when I adopted my horse whose name is Jazz. He was quite literally out starving in a field. He had been abandoned and very neglected. And in 2010, I decided to adopt him. And what I didn't know is that he was really sick with a disease called EPM. It's a disorder of the central nervous system. I knew Martha at the time, Martha Stowe. I knew she did equine myofascial release. And so I had her work on him for me, and I saw the effects that it had on him. He was more connected to his body. He was in less pain. And so that's when I got certified.

HM: Would you consider going to veterinary school if that's what they require of you?

LW: No, I can't. You know, it's an outrageous amount of money. And besides, I would not learn massage therapy in vet school. It's not part of their curriculum.

HM: As I understand it in your state, farmers are allowed to castrate a horse but you're not allowed to massage one. The farmer's not a vet either so–

LW: Exactly.

HM: Does that seem strange to you?

LW: Yes it totally makes absolutely no sense. I mean you can, you know cause a lot of damage doing that. We're just basically you know, the laying on of hands there's nothing that we could ever do that would hurt a horse.

HM: Do you think that's possible that the board is legitimately concerned that you might somehow injure a horse?

LW: They may be but I've never been asked what I'd do. I've never been asked any questions about my technique or they've never wanted to know from my clients you know. How is her work? Is she good at what she does? They've never asked me anything about what I do?

HM: So where has this left your equine patients while you're in this legal struggle?

LW: Well I stopped practicing when this first happened and then I just couldn't stop anymore and I've continued my work. I'm very careful about who I take on and that I can trust them. But when I get a call from a friend whose horse is in the hospital and she's desperate, I'm going to go and I did go. And so here I am I'm in the equine hospital doing what I've been told that I can't do or I'm going to go to jail. I just I can't help it. I have to I have to help them. It leaves horses having to get medicated which is just putting a Band-Aid on the issue and not relieving their pain, that's where it's leaving them.

HM: Ms. Wheeler I appreciate you talking with us about your situation. Thank you.

LW: Thank you so much.

HM: OK bye-bye

LW: Bye.

JD: Laurie Wheeler massages horses. We return Franklin, Tennessee. And for more on this story, including some photographs you can go to our website, which as I said cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Iowa politician affiliation, Johnny K-9 obit

Iowa political affiliation

Guest: Mark Chelgren

JEFF DOUGLAS: The question in the job interview might be something like “What are your political leanings?” or it might be more to the point. “Are you a Democrat or are you a Republican?” Now I am going to wager that the vast majority of job interviews in the US would not dare tread into that territory. But Mark Chelgren wants to change that, and he wants to change that specifically for professors applying for jobs at universities in the state of Iowa. And to that end, he has introduced a bill that would ask prospective hires for their political affiliation. The state senator would also launch a hiring freeze until the number of Republican and Democrat professors on each faculty fell within 10 percent of each other. We reached Senator Mark Chelgren in Des Moines.

HM: Senator Chelgren, do you think there are too many Democrats on the faculties of Iowa universities right now?

MARK CHELGREN: No I don't think there are too many Democrats necessarily. The bill that I wrote simply says we need to have diversity of opinion, political. And so my goal is to make sure we have a balance. Now since my bill has been submitted, I have gotten quite a few e-mails in quite a few calls explaining to me that other people do believe that there are too many Democrats, and it's been interesting to hear their perspectives.

HM: But if you didn't think there were too many Democrats in the first place what is the problem that you're trying to address?

MC: Well I believe that what the issue ends up being is, I've been told by my Democratic colleagues that we need to make sure we have diversity at our region's universities which I agree with. But I think we need more than just diversity of ethnicity and diversity of gender. I think we need to have diversity also of political experiences.

HM: What actual evidence do you have that there isn't that kind of political diversity?

MC: Well when I submitted the bill, I actually had quite a few phone calls, I had quite a few e-mails, I've had quite a few individuals who linked me to articles telling me that there isn't that kind of diversity. That universities are turning into echo chambers where political free speech is being inhibited.

HM: Can you give us some examples?

MC: I've had people directly contacting me telling me that they are uncomfortable because if they mention that they might have voted for Donald Trump, for instance, that that might put them in eligible to be tenured in the future. If they acknowledged that they voted for Donald Trump. It's almost disqualifies them in their peers’ minds and so they choose to remain quiet.

HM: Are they providing you with any sort of factual support for their assumption that they might not get tenure because they voted Republican?

MC: Well if you pay attention to the actual bill that was written, the bill says that anyone who is registered as a Third party or Independent is not calculated. It specifically talks about the balance within 10 percent of each other, of Republicans and Democrats. Those are the two primary parties that, in each election cycle, seem to come forward as the leading parties. And so that's what the bill calls for and says it should be a balance in hiring of those.

HM: Well what would that balance that political balance look like on campus? How would it differ from what you're seeing right now?

MC: Well I guess that would depend on what the actual numbers at the end of the day turn out to be as far as individuals who are registered for the two primary parties, and also allowing our students, who are paying tuitions, to understand what political orientation or political priorities their professors have. You know, they’re the consumers.

HM: Why is that relevant? If someone is taking a physics course or an agricultural course, why would the professor's affiliation matter?

MC: Well if the professor was simply teaching the facts, as I would hope they would do, it shouldn't matter. But if professors bring their political bias or their political themes into a class that it may not be appropriate for that would be one aspect of it.

HM: How would political bias be presented in an agriculture class?

MC: Well it could be. When you have a professor who puts those into there, that’s a professor. Hopefully you wouldn't have that case. But I have heard many stories about professors who literally said I want to know who voted and how you voted and why.

HM: Do you have evidence that I have that from individuals who contacted me and explain that’s what happened to them.

MC: Yes.

HM: A lot of individuals? How many people have written you about that or contacted you?

MC: I've been contacted by dozens of people so it seems like you don't believe that there are individuals at the universities who allow their political feelings and emotions to impact their decision-making.

HM: Oh, it's not that I don't believe you one way or the other. I'm just asking for actual evidence since you're saying that you've had all these reports. I'm just wondering how concrete those reports are and what universities you're talking about. What institutions?

MC: Well, my bill specifically talks about the region's universities in Iowa, which is University of Iowa and Iowa State.

HM: If I want a job on a faculty at one of those institutions, what do I do? Do I have to pull out my card and show my party membership?

MC: Well actually it’s already public information in the state of Iowa. And so if you want a job at one of those institutions and there's already a substantively disproportionate amount of someone of your political affiliation, then effectively, somebody else would have a preference on that hiring.

HM: In terms of things like marital status or religion, you would never expect that to be a factor in hiring. So I'm not sure why politics would be.

MC: Because we also want to make sure that we don't have institutions of higher education, higher learning, become simply an echo chamber for one ideology. We'd like to make sure that we have diversity of thought and diversity of opinion but with respect to the opinions of both sides.

HM: The fundamentals of universities usually are based on the fact that people have intellectual freedom and the right to say what they think. You know, some of your fellow lawmakers are even saying the bill is unconstitutional. What do you say to them?

MC: Well the bill was written specifically so we can have a dialogue about what ideally universities should be doing, and I appreciate you asking me to talk to you today because clearly that's dialogue is happening.

HM: So do you see this bill is actually becoming law or is this more symbolic about opening up this dialogue you're discussing?

MC: I think it's probably a lot more symbolic. I don't really think it's going to come off. But I think it's something that that sends a very clear message to universities that we'd like them to take seriously that when they talk about diversity, they need to be thinking about diversity with a larger key and making sure we have differential slots that can be openly espoused at our universities without harassment or bullying or any other effects to try to shut people down and no repercussions for those who speak honestly about their opinions.

HM: Last fall, another Iowa Republican tabled the Suck it Up Buttercup bill. The idea was to target what he called “Campus hysteria” after President Trump was elected. Is there something going on among Republicans trying to make a point about campus politics?

MC: Well I would ask if there's not a problem with maybe some of our campuses. I would hope that we wouldn't need the bills, including my own. I would hope that we would have much higher levels of professionalism. But if you've got situations where professors can't even teach classes because they're so upset, I would say this is clearly some unprofessional behavior happening and we should probably address it.

HM: And you actually have professors who say they can't teach because they're so upset about the political environment?

MC: I said if we had that we'd have to deal with it. I can't speak for the Suck it Up Buttercup bill that you've mentioned before. I wasn't part of that bill. I'm sure you’d probably be able to talk to the representative who submitted that bill.

HM: We have. We’ve spoken with him already actually about this.

MC: Great.

HM: All right well thank you very much Senator Chelgren, I appreciate you talking with us today.

MC: Not a problem. Have a good day.

JD: State Senator Mark Chelgren was in Des Moines, Iowa. And for more on this story go to our website cbc.ca/aih. And you can also find our interview with the Suck it Up Buttercup bill, in which an Iowa Republican lawmaker hangs up on Carol. It's on our website as well.

[Music]

Steve Bannon

JD: Officially, he is assistant to the U.S. President and chief White House strategist. Unofficially, some critics believe he's a puppet master who's using his new role to put his complicated, disturbing philosophy into action. On "Saturday Night Live", he's the Grim Reaper.
Steve Bannon is just one of the new Trump Administration's power-brokers speaking at this week's Conservative Political Action Conference in Maryland, CPAC. And on the main stage today, Mr. Bannon took aim at the mainstream media.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE BANNON: It's not only not going to get better. It's going to get worse every day in the media. And here's why. But by the way, the internal logic makes sense. They're corporatist globalist media that are adamantly opposed, adamantly opposed an economic nationalist agenda like Donald Trump has.
President Trump really laid this out. As Ryan said many years ago at CPAC, it's really CPAC that have really originally gave him the springboard. It's the first time at Breitbart we started seeing him, and see saw how people… his speeches resonated with people and then he would go out to these smaller town halls later and really get traction with the same message he's bringing today.
Here's the only– Here's why it’s going to get worse. Because he's going to continue to press his agenda. And as economic conditions get better, as more jobs get better, they're going to continue to fight. If you think they're going to give you your country back without a fight, you are sadly mistaken. Every day, every day, it is going to be a fight.
And that is what proudest about Donald Trump. All the opportunities he had to waver off this. All the people have come to him and said “Oh, you've got to moderate.” Every day in the Oval Office he tells Ryan and I, “I committed this to the American people, I promised this when I ran. And I'm going to deliver on this.”

[Sound: Applause]

SB: We’re at the top of the first inning of this, and it's going to take just as much fight, just as much focus, and just as much determination, and the one thing I'd like to leave you guys today with is that we want you to have our back.

[Sound: Applause]

SB: But more importantly. By the way, President Trump, we doubted for a second but also and more importantly, hold us accountable, hold us accountable to what we promised. Hold us accountable for delivering on what we promised.

JD: That was Steve Bannon, U.S. president Donald Trump's assistant and White House’s chief strategist. He was speaking earlier today at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Maryland.

[Music]

Johnny K-9 obituary

Guest: Kim Bolan

HM: Kim Bolan, what are you thinking as we hear this news that K-9, or John Croitoru, who lived this very notorious and dangerous life, has died in a Toronto halfway house.

KIM BOLAN: Well it was surprising news for sure. He was released from prison last September. We knew we had to live in a halfway house as one of his conditions. His family lives out here in Metro Vancouver and they were very eager to have him released and returned to him. His youngest child was born while he was in custody for this latest conspiracy to commit murder charge, to which he pleaded guilty. So colourful character for sure. Family loved him, associates loved him, but obviously he was very notorious and still a suspect in some unsolved murders.

HM: How does he die? Do we know?

KB: We don't know. It's believed to be natural causes. There was an autopsy done. There's nothing suspicious suspected. But of course we won't know until we get those autopsy results.

HM: So how did he get this nickname Johnny K-9?

KB: Well he was a professional wrestler and that was in fact his wrestling name and it stuck. A huge huge man. Not that tall but very broad across the shoulders. Very big, bald with a big mustache. And he was a character. You know, he took that persona from wrestling. He used it in his criminal life. He did some bit parts in films as sort of the strong man or the muscle in the background. And you know, people saw that character and personality and they were very drawn to him in the criminal underworld.

HM: Yeah he had a very distinctive look for sure.

KB: Yes he did. I mean it was almost a stereotype of what you would expect a strong man to look like. But you know it was the way he looked, and he carried himself you know very confidently when he appeared in court. I remember covering his first appearance out here in 2009 in this conspiracy to commit murder case. And he literally walked into the prisoner's box from the back and kind of put his hands together and up in the air. And I remember thinking that just like he was entering the ring and that's how he wrote the story because that's what it was like.

HM: Did he actually have any success that you know of as a wrestler? Because that wasn't the only name he used. He had “Terrible Turk” “Bruiser Bedlam”. It sounds like he was trying to make a go of it.

KB: Yeah. He was involved in it for a while but clearly through his associates he was also deeply entrenched in you know criminality, he was involved in organized crime. He was a biker head in Ontario before he came out to B.C. and connected with the United Nations gang. So you know his real profession was as a criminal for the last two decades at least.

HM: One of the more notorious stories was here in Ontario where I am, he was charged with murdering a Hamilton couple. What happened in that case?

KB: Well he was arrested, and along with some other people, in 2005. And you know it was actually a lawyer and her husband who were killed. And it was believed to be you know in retaliation you know for you know another case. They were shot by shotguns in 1998. But the charges were later dropped and he was still a suspect. I had talked to the Hamilton investigators who still were hoping to make progress in that case so you know we don't know if he would have eventually been charged in that case. And now we'll never know.

HM: Yeah that case sent a real chill through the legal community. It was pretty frightening. This woman was a criminal defense lawyer.

KB: Yes that's right. And you know obviously, there are a lot of people who would have liked to have seen closure in that case and it wasn't to come. But out here in B.C., he was more known as someone who was associated with this United Nations gang. He became friends with Clayton Roueche, the founder of that gang. He's now serving a 30 year sentence in the United States. I remember getting some wiretaps out of a U.S. court, but they were wiretapped from a Montreal hotel room and K-9 was talking to Clayton Roueche, and you know about “Hey dog, doggy.” He called Roueche, ironically, even though his nickname was K-9, and it was about you know someone he had set them up to meet. And you know was that guy going to work out and you know it was believed to be a hitman that John K-9 was introducing to the United Nations gang.

HM: Now, there were also a story involving the Bacon Brothers who may, people may remember, and in fact, wasn't Johnny canine accused of an a plot trying to kill them?

KB: Yes that's right. A number of members of the U.N. gang and associates of the U.N. gang were charged in 2009, both with first degree murder and with conspiracy to kill the Bacon Brothers, and they were really driving around the lower mainland of B.C. on what the Crown described as safari hunting the Bacon Brothers and their associates. And this violence continued for months in 2008 and 2009, and there were people killed. And sadly one of the people killed, was a stereo installer who had just picked up one of the Bacon Brother’s vehicles to install a stereo when he was shot to death. That was the first degree murder charge that Johnny K-9 was charged with. He ended up pleading guilty only to the conspiracy count. He was sentenced to more than 13 years but minus time served. You know he would have been out of jail very shortly.

HM: And that's how he ended up in this halfway house in which he died.

KB: That's right.

HM: So you mentioned his family looking forward to his return to them. What else have they said about the man? Things that, you know, based on what we're reading about him, we might not know.

KB: Well they said that he you know adored his time with his family, was a very devoted family man. They saw him as a bigger than life personality, kind, generous, and you know as I mentioned his youngest child was born while he was in prison. So you know that little girl was very much looking forward to having her dad living with her again or for the first time really. And you know, that wasn't to be. They also said that yes he had made mistakes, but he was really devoted to changing his life around. That's something that his defense lawyer also said when he was convicted back in July of 2013, that this guy had a lot of skills, a talent bigger than life personality, and could make a go of it in the legitimate world. So you know they're obviously very sad but this guy is someone who drew strong reactions and different reactions from all from almost everyone he met.

HM: Kim Bolan, I really appreciate you tying this all up for us. Thank you very much.

KB: Thanks for having me.

JD: Kim Boylan is the Vancouver Sun's crime reporter. We reached her in Vancouver.

[Music]

Hockey stick rescue

JD: If it wasn't for a couple hockey sticks, and a quick-thinking friend, who knows what would have happened to James Simonds.
The New Brunswick man was skating with his friend on the Kennebecasis River when he fell through the ice. He told his story to the CBC's Norma Lee MacLeod. Here's a part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES SIMONDS: We had probably skated for about an hour and a half and the ice was great for miles. And right out of the blue, it was like falling into an abyss. I just went right straight into the water. I went from probably ice that was six inches deep, to ice that was two millimeters deep.

NORMA LEE MACLEOD: Did you go right under?

JS: My hockey stick actually was horizontal it actually both ends of it caught each side of the ice. So I went to about neck deep. At first, obviously, I was in shock. I was basically sit there and go “What's happening? What's happening?” and then you have to quickly move to “What do I need to do?” Obviously I, you know, started treading water and tried to keep myself afloat and then I instinctively just you know, tried to pull myself up but the ice kept breaking away from me I tried about three times to do that.

NLM: What were you thinking at that point?

JS: Well I was thinking I was in trouble. And actually, I said a quick prayer. I said “God please deliver me from this.” And then I yelled out to my friend. I said, “Steve, I need help.” And Steve yelled back and he said “Yo, I'm coming. I'm coming.”

NLM: Did he see this happen did he see you go in?

JS: Yes. Yeah. He was about, I'd say 100 yards behind me. So he stopped at a safe distance away and then basically got on his stomach and shimmied his way to towards me.

NLM: Now you had a hockey stick. Did Steve also have a stick?

JS: Yes we did. Yeah we both had them, and we both purposely take them every time we go out because it obviously, they can be a tool to help you.

NLM: And it turned out that that stick was a tool. Tell me how Steve got you out of there. What did he do?

JS: Like I said he was shimmying his way towards me, and he got to a stick length away from me and he held it with a stick blade pointing up and I basically put my stick like perpendicular to it and hooked it on and then he said “James, kick your feet as hard as you possibly can and I’ll pull you at the same time and we'll try to pull you out.” And I did that and I got right out.

NLM: What was it like to feel yourself on safe ice?

JS: A blessing I guess. It was… It was amazing. It's very… you're just so in shock and and so fast through the whole thing that it's just it's hard even put into words.

JD: That was New Brunswick's James Simonds speaking with Norma Lee Macleod, the host of CBC Radio's Maritime Noon.

Back To Top »

Part 3: Half-marathon cheat, MLA immigration protest, Yukon mistrial

Half-marathon cheat

Guest: Derek Murphy

JD: In a photo at the finish line, Jane Seo is seen smiling and exhausted. She had just placed second at the Fort Lauderdale Half-Marathon, held on the weekend. It was a big achievement for the amateur runner, who also writes about food and fitness for Huffington Post.
A few days later, though, came an epic apology. Ms. Seo wrote the following bombshell to her 34-thousand Instagram followers: "I made a HORRIBLE choice. I got swept away in the moment and pretended I ran the entire course, when in fact I CHEATED."
If it hadn't been for Derek Murphy, that apology – and Ms. Seo's disqualification – may never have happened. Mr. Murphy is an independent marathon investigator and online sleuth who helped expose her. We reached Mr. Murphy in Cincinnati.

HM: Derek Murphy, what initially pushed you to take a closer look at Jane's CEO's half marathon results this week?

DEREK MURPHY: I decided to take a closer look when I saw kind of a cover up. Someone e-mailed me that she had a questionable result, looking at her published times. She had a big negative split which means she ran the second part of a race a lot quicker than she did the first part of the race. And it was 85 degrees Fahrenheit there and so that seemed very unlikely. And she missed Matt as well. There's chit mats on the course when you run around and so it picks you up and it registers your time at that point in the course, and she missed one of those timing mats.

HM: Is there any explanation for that other than that a runner didn't go over the mat?

DM: Every now and then, you do see some malfunctions where that mat didn't cover their entire width of the road or just any kind of malfunction. Occasionally you do see where those timing mats malfunction. But when you look at it combined with the unexplained pace increase, that adds up to there's really no other explanation then that she cut the course.

HM: During the race she carried the runner’s app with her called Strava and it seems to show that she did really run the entire race. Why weren’t you convinced?

DM: Right. Two key things, pretty much immediately. I was able to see the time that the Strava had her on the course and it was in the afternoon. The race was first thing, it was early in the morning. And then to further prove it, you can tell from heart rate data and cadence data that that it wasn't valid compared to her running entries. You know her cadence data was much slower which would indicate peddling instead of running the distance.

HM: So did you immediately think she went back and did it on the bike.

DM: Yeah that was that was fairly obvious. I couldn't quite tell for sure her intent, but for somebody to run a half marathon then go out and decide to bike it later would be highly unusual.

HM: And you also mentioned that she put in by hand the data she actually punched it in as opposed to letting it automatically upload.

DM: Right. She had actually had two different entries. So the first entry was the manual entry, and she had literally hundreds of other entries and none of them were manual. So that was her only manual entry, and then she followed that up with the entry from the bike, which you know which was automatic which was uploaded with the data.

HM: Now as if all this wasn't enough. You also found a photograph taken of Ms. Seo at the finish line. What did you find in that?

DM: In that photo, I just had to look at the photo to see if she was actually wearing a GPS watch. That would explain a manual entry if you left the watch at the hotel. And I did notice that she had a GPS watch on, and I could see the face of the watch in the photo. So I purchased a high resolution copy of that photo and was able to zoom in on it and it showed her actual distance ran which was eleven point six five miles. It should have shown something. Thirteen point one miles or likely something a little bit higher than that. So that's when it became indisputable that she cut of course.

HM: So after you dug up all this information, how did she respond?

DM: After she was presented with some of the data that I got, that I obtained with the watch, y ou know picture of the watch and the cadence data, she, and I spoke to her, right after that she did post on her Instagram account apologizing, admitting to cutting the course and trying to cover her tracks by biking it afterwards. So she did admit to that part. What she did not admit to me, she told me she went right back to the hotel, didn't talk to anybody. When in truth she was talking to race officials and other runners to try to convince them that she ran of course.

HM: Why do you think she cheated?

DM: The most likely explanation is she's a member of an elite running club in New York where she's from. And they have if you meet some thresholds; you get an entry into kind of another upper tier of that, of that club. So with the time that she posted, you know, that was enough to you know, to meet those criteria. And she did later can confirm that as her reason, according to the race director I've heard she's been kicked out of her elite running club. Have you heard that? Yes she was. There is a statement made by, the name of the club is The Dashing Whippets, and actually there is, what she was trying to qualify for, was an upper level, you know of that group. So that, she got removed from the club all together.

HM: Now you do this a lot. You run a website called Marathon Investigation in your spare time. Why are you so compelled to do this? What makes you passionate about tracking cheating runners?

DM: Initially I started just, I was interested in it. There were just some high profile stories here that I kind of followed, that were getting a lot of attention, so I was just kind of curious on how prevalent is it or are he just you know odd ball cases that we hear about, and within five minutes of just pulling up some results of a random race, I would say I found, you know I found you know someone who obviously cheated. What I focused mostly on, typically would be people who cheat to run the Boston Marathon. So if somebody were to cheat in a qualifying race to run Boston, that means somebody is being left out who deserves a spot. So that's where my focus typically lies.

HM: So this in your mind, this is not a victimless thing to be doing.

DM: No no, not not at all. Not in the case of cheating to run Boston or taking an age group award. And in her case, she was she was sponsored to take this trip to go out to run the marathons. So she was compted, reimbursed for you know, for a good part of her you know trip out to Fort Lauderdale.

HM: Are you a runner yourself?

DM: Not so much anymore. I have done 10 marathons. The last one’s been about eight years ago before my daughter was born. Then you know, priorities change and so I haven't run as much lately. I do plan on running a full marathon. We'll see how that goes.

HM: If there's someone out there thinking you might have a little too much time on your hands, that this might be mean spirited. What do you say to them?

DM: As far as the spare time, I don't know, I don't watch much TV. I don't play you know I don't, you know, play on the computer too much. Besides doing this, I think it helps clean up the sport a little bit and you know it does help people out. So it definitely is not meant to shame people and I don't always you know post names and you know and details. It just depends, you know, whether the person's a public figures. Like she was, she has 30,000 Instagram followers and she was benefiting from this running. It was a little bit different.

HM: Mr. Murphy thanks for talking to us.

DM: Thank you very much.

HM: OK. Bye-bye.

DM: Bye-bye.

JD: Derrick Murphy is an independent marathon investigator. We reached him in Cincinnati.

[Music]

MLA lmmigration protest

Guest: Cindy Lamoureux

JD: In the halls of Manitoba's legislature she has been hard to miss. She's the one with a sleeping bag, the cooler of food, and a big white board that reads “Still waiting.”
The camper is Liberal MLA Cindy Lamoureux. It has been more than 24 hours but she still has not budged from the marble floor outside the office of Conservative Immigration Minister Ian Wishart. She’s protesting a provincial program that was supposed to bring thousands of skilled immigrants and families to the province. Ms. Lamoureux says families are experiencing long delays and unfair denials of their applications. We reached her earlier today in Winnipeg.

HM: Ms. Lamoureux, how was your back doing after spending the night camped out in the legislature?

CINDY LAMOUREUX: I actually don't mind sleeping on a marble floor. I’ve done it before and it's a hard surface I feels good for my back.

HM: Wow. What does the campsite actually look like? What did you just take in there?

CL: Well you know we try not to take up a lot of space during the day. But there is myself and two volunteers. We each have a sleeping bag. We have a cooler, but people have been very generous in bringing us most of our food.

HM: And in terms of the office stuff in the Minister's office what did they do. They step around you?

CL: Well we're not like in no way whatsoever, we're outside of their office but we're sitting nicely against the wall.

HM: OK. Now these are unusual measures at least for an MLA to take to raise an issue with the government. What are you so concerned about when it comes to this provincial immigration nominee program and how it's being run.

CL: Well ,you know, they’ve really left me no choice, which is why I’m taking these unusual measures as you say. Just to touch on that briefly, I’ve asked questions in question period, I’ve made statements inside of the House. I’ve reached out to the Minister and the Deputy Minister through letters and the only response I’ve ever received is a letter saying, we received your initial letter. I've even gone down to immigration Manitoba to be asked to leave.
So we're here today because I need to start getting answers from my constituents about the Provincial Nominee Program. And like I said, they've left me no choice. So I have to say we're calling to sit in outside of the Minister's office until I get those answers.

HM: What are the concerns that your constituents are raising?

CL: Yeah. You know the biggest concern is the wait times. Right now, I have constituents who have waited three, even some four years to hear a response from the Provincial Nominee Program. And I think it's completely unacceptable. People are putting their lives on hold for this amount of time whether it’s three or four years. They get excited about coming to Manitoba, about being reunited with their families. I’ve heard stories where people Google map where they want to live and they try to find jobs down here. They put in a lot of effort and time to apply, only to have their life put on hold on the slow-track.

HM: The point of the program is to reunite people with family members but that those family members should be people who can contribute something to Manitoba's economy essentially is that right?

CL: Yes skilled workers.

HM: Right, with specific skills though. So you could be rejected for a number of reason, I imagine some of them, even if you have an education, they may not be the criteria that the province is looking for.

CL: Yes. So when they apply, there’s listings of what skills they're looking for. And those skills are often changing before their application is being processed. So it's not fair.

HM: That's interesting. And that, is that partly because it's taking so long that the skillset’s changing?

CL: Yes I imagine so.

HM: We asked Minister Wishart about your concerns. He sent us a statement and I'm just going to say what it says. “Our government is on track to eliminate by the end of March the MPNP application backlog that ballooned under the former government. Program improvements will ensure all applicants receive a higher standard of service including better information sharing and processing time of less than six months.” Isn't that what you're looking for?

CL: Yes it is exactly. And if he answers that, and if he's willing to put that on paper for me, that's one of my… I gave him six questions and one suggestion. If he wants to give me answer but commit to it. Don't just say we're on track. I want something…something a little more tangible. And it's funny that he's willing to say, that he's going to tweet that. But then yesterday, in our meeting I asked him “Well how many applicants are still in the system?” And he's unwilling to share that information with me. So I have to continue doing sit-in to find out.

HM: But he did put down on paper for us that he plans to have a processing time of less than six months.

CL: Can he commit to it? And then I will be happy.

HM: You need that signed and sealed and handed to you?

CL: Not signed and sealed, but there's a few questions I just want a little bit more. In question period, when I ask questions, the responses I get to are “Be patient. We'll get to that. The former government set us up really in a poor situation so it's going to take time.” And I can respect that. But it's been nine months. I've been left out of conversations. I've been completely stonewalled. So they've really left me no reason to believe that they're making positive changes.

HM: Over the last few months we've been seeing that Manitoba's dealing with this influx of refugees walking into the province from the United States. Your program, as you mentioned that you're protesting, is just for skilled immigrants. Do you think it's possible that the government just has more pressing issues right now when it comes to people coming into Canada?

CL: Yeah. Well they've had nine months and it takes as little as a letter response as I say. I've asked for meetings just to discuss the potential behind the program. And I recognize the Minister is new to his position and so I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in learning. But I want to have hope and leave the sit-in with some confidence that the program will be improving.

HM: How long are you willing to continue that that sit-in and camp out in that office? For how many nights I guess?

CL: Indefinitely. But you know, I'm very optimistic that he's going to get me something today.

HM: Are you just dying for a nice hot shower?

CL: A shower would be nice. I'm actually dying more so for fresh air. I have very bad sinuses.

HM: It sounds as if because you're making some progress here you might be finding this an effective way to get what you want for your constituents. Are you prepared to do this in other Ministers’ offices and other parts of the legislature?

CL: You know I'd like to spin that around. I'd actually rather say I'm hoping the ministers see length I'm willing to go. And so they'll work with me before I have to get to this point.

HM: Ms. Lamoroux, thank you very much for talking to us.

CL: Thank you.

HM: Okay bye-bye.

CL: Bye.

JD: We reached Manitoba Liberal MLA Cindy Lamoureux in Winnipeg earlier today.

Stolen car funeral

JD: She just wants it all back.
Over the weekend, thieves broke into Elissa Carpenter's car, while it was parked at her mother's house in Red Deer, Alberta. Inside were all the items she had taken to her son's funeral service. The 14-year-old died suddenly last month of a brain aneurysm.
Here's what Ms. Carpenter told CBC Calgary about the moment she realized she had been robbed.

SOUNDCLIP

ELISSA CARPENTER: My mom came outside and my window was down. She looked in the car and said “I think that they've taken your suitcase.”
Immediately I was… I mean, his scrapbooks when he was 5 years old when he was in kindergarten was in there. The guest books for his funeral service. You know, the leftover funeral cards. She had phoned the police and they told me not to touch anything. In the trunk were a number of shoes, which to most people, there were just shoes, but to Evan there were really very important and they were on display at his funeral service. So when the police got there, they said, you know, “Go ahead and open the trunk and see what else is missing.” And I opened the trunk and those shoes were gone as well.
In that case was a Jersey from his favorite NFL team that, at his funeral service, there were about a dozen boys who were wearing matching jerseys with his name on the back, Carpenter on the back. And the parents of those kids had gotten together and also supplied one for my youngest son, for Evan's dad, and for me. So they took that as well.
You know he died very suddenly. He wasn't terminally ill, there wasn't anything wrong with him, and so you know, these are the things that we could gather up when he died, realizing that we want to hold all of our memories tight. If they knew that they stole from a dead child they might do the right thing.

JD: That was Elissa Carpenter speaking with CBC Calgary. Police are asking the public for any information they might have about the theft.

[Music]

Yukon Mistrial

Guest: Anik Morrow

JD: Over the course of his trial. Michael Nehass had already spent five years in solitary confinement. That is a longer span of time than his initial crime would have warranted in jail.
And last week, after recognizing the Indigenous young man was mentally unfit from all those years in segregation, a judge ordered a mistrial. Mr. Nehass was first charged in 2011 with unlawful confinement and assault with a weapon. Since then, he spent much of his time in a segregated cell in Whitehorse Correctional Centre while his mental health deteriorated. Uneek morrow is his lawyer.
Anik Morrow is his lawyer. We reached her in Toronto.

HM: Ms. Morrow, why did the judge order a mistrial in your client's case at this stage?

ANIK MORROW: Well, when you emphasize this stage, that's an important part of what happened here. Mr. Niehass was in the process of being sentenced. And the reason why the judge declared a mistrial was because he realized that he was sort of impeded by a gap in the law. And the issue that was before him was that he had concluded that Mr. Nehass was unfit to participate in the judicial proceedings. He was not able to understand what was going on. And that was as a result of a finding that he was quite obviously psychotic.
Now in Canadian law the criminal code provides for a judge to make certain findings and to address unfitness up until the point of a finding of guilt. But the criminal code doesn't address an unfit offender. In other words, an individual who's been found guilty and is in the process of being sentenced. And that's why the mistrial was declared. The judge had seen Mr. Nehass deteriorate and ultimately the issue was put squarely before him in November of 2016.

HM: Now this case had already been before the courts for nearly five years when you took it on. When you read through the transcripts, what impression did you form of Michael Nehass?

AM: Well when I started reading through the materials it seemed fairly obvious to me that we were dealing with an individual who was very very mentally ill. Mentally disordered. And it was quite clear that as of 2012 forewords, he was actively psychotic because he had been complaining to the guards and being very vocal in court about, you know, his beliefs. There was a very detailed conspiracy that he had developed involving the government and involving the government's interest in exterminating him and exterminating Indigenous people et cetera. I mean he believed that he had been implanted with nanoparticles. He believed the facility, the correctional facility, was poisoning him. And so that was my first issue that I raised it with the Crown Office. In essence, what I said is, before we go any further, shouldn't we be addressing the elephant in the room. This man is mentally ill.

HM: Can you explain how it is that Michael Nehass ended up spending five years in solitary confinement?

AM: When we talk about that isolation, I mean this is significant. This is a small cell with no way of looking outside. In your cell 23 hours out of 24. Lights on 24/7. A camera watching your every move. This is a horrific situation for anyone. Mr. Nehass’ case is extraordinary because he was there for such a very long period of time. And what is remarkable and very very distressing is that at the end of the day, it seems fairly clear that the reason why he was in segregation for such a long period of time was because he was mentally ill and the facility simply didn't know what to do. They didn't have the resources to assist him. And so the only way that they could, you know, sort of control the situation, was to put him in this cell. And of course to no one's surprise, he deteriorated over that period of time.

HM: Mr. Nehass is Indigenous. He's also the son of residential school survivors. How do you think that affected his experience in the justice system these past five years?

AM: Well that's a very interesting question because when I first received this case, the first thing that I realized when I was reviewing the information. What on earth is this individual doing incarcerated for that period of time when in fact the direction within the justice system is to do everything else but lengthy incarceration of Aboriginal people? So that's what led me to then look a little bit further to determine what had happened in this particular case.
This was an individual that had a horrific background. Literally had raised himself on the street, had become involved with the justice system, predictably so, but had not received any kind of real help along the way to get him at the right moment, help him at the right moment. And then ultimately, here he was, in segregation for a long period of time. Again, nobody knowing what they could do with him, what they should do for him. So it seemed to me that this was an end individual who had just been processed by the justice system.
And quite frankly you know, in this last stage, just hammered beyond anything that was acceptable.

HM: How is Michael Nehass doing now?

AM: Well he's better. The simple fact of moving from isolation to a therapeutic environment. The simple fact of interacting with individuals with mental health training, there was a huge transformation. Notwithstanding, his delusional belief is still intact and he's taking medication for that voluntarily. He was very happy to be offered medication for it. He has improved. And so I'm very hopeful that his improvement will continue.

HM: The charges against him were serious. They involved unlawful confinement and assault with a weapon. Is he likely to be retried now?

AM: These are serious charges. This was a dispute with somebody in an apartment. He blocked the door and while arguing with them, he pulled out what is alleged, a pocket knife. So yeah it's serious. The issue though, is that he's gone through what he's gone through and he's got you know a serious mental disorder. You know, we agree across the board that he has served his sentence and more. So the issue now is what's the interest in starting this up again. Do we have any idea of when Mr. Nehass might be fit in the future? Is there anything to be gained? You know there's an incredible amount of resources that have gone into this.

HM: Does the Crown agree or are they intending to prosecute?

AM: You know well the first reaction you know after hearing from the judge, what I heard from the crown was that at least on that day, they intended to go forward.

HM: Ms. Morrow, I appreciate you taking us through the case. Thank you very much.

AM: Thank you.

HM: Alright. Goodbye.

JD: Anik Morrow is the lawyer for Michael Nehass. A Yukon judge ordered a mistrial in Mr. Nehass's case after finding him mentally unfit, after spending five years in solitary confinement during his trial. We reached his lawyer, Ms. Morrow, in Toronto.

[Music]

Henryetta dance law

JD: On Tuesday night, the city council in Henryetta, Oklahoma, held a vote.

SOUNDCLIP

We are all aware of what this ordinance is.

[Sound: Roll call to unanimous yesses]

Dancing is legal in Henryetta.

JD: And that was the end of that outdated law.
We talked about that particular law earlier this month with Shelly Rivera – one of the organizers of a planned Valentine's Day dance in Henryetta. Problem was a city ordinance that dated back to the 'seventies: no dancing within 500 feet of a church or public school. City officials never enforced it – but when the Valentine's Day dance was announced, angry Henryetta residents brought it up. So the organizers called the whole thing off.
Well, as you heard, after international coverage of that story, that ordinance has been repealed. And after the council meeting, Henryetta mayor Jennifer Clason told the Tulsa World newspaper exactly what that meant for her community. "It is something that needs to be addressed, but as far as does it impact anything in Henryetta? No. Has it ever impacted Henryetta? Not to my knowledge."
Well, even if it won't change much, the decision to fix that law took a combination of flexibility and backbone. And so will all the dancing they're about to do.

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Feb 23, 2017 episode transcript

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