Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2016

The AIH Transcript for January 18, 2017

Hosts: Helen Mann and Angeline Tetteh-Wayoe

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

ANGELINE TETTEH-WAYOE: Good evening, I'm Angeline Tetteh-Wayoe. This is As It Happens. Tonight:

HM: Les mots un-justes. Our guest says the Prime Minister disrespected her yesterday when she asked him about the mental healthcare needs of Quebec's English-speaking minority -- and he insisted on responding in French.

ATW: A good deed goes punished. The president of a Missouri college lets a homeless student crash in the school library on a cold night -- and is promptly given the boot for lending a hand.

HM: The inadequacy of hope. Whatever his successes, William Darity Jr. believes U.S. President Barack Obama's presidency was a failure for one group in particular: black Americans.

ATW: Up where she belongs. Buffy Sainte-Marie didn't just co-write that song, and dozens of others over the past fifty-plus years, she also worked to protect indigenous culture – which is why she's getting a special JUNO humanitarian Award.

HM: Atoning for his synths. The late Nigerian musician William Onyeabor created a whole new sound when he added synthesizers to his funk songs -- but left music behind when he was born again.

ATW: And his long national nightmares have already begun. John Dean is losing sleep because he worries the incoming president could be one of the most corrupt ever – and yes, this is the John Dean who worked for Richard Nixon. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that guesses he doesn't want to live this particular American dream.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Trudeau French presser, John Dean nightmares

Trudeau French presser

Guest: Judy Ross

ATW: It wasn't just Justin Trudeau’s answer that frustrated Judy Ross. It was also the language he answered it in. Ms. Ross is a mental health advocate in Quebec’s Eastern Townships when she heard that the prime minister was hosting a town hall in Sherbrooke yesterday. She went armed with a question. Sure enough she got her chance.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: [speaking in French] Madame dans le rouge en arrière.

JUDY ROSS: Thank you very much Mr. Trudeau. Since the inception of the National Health Plan, funding for psychiatry and mental health services have been grossly underfunded compared to the other areas of health care. Of particular concern in this area are services to minority populations. Most of the public services in this area are available in French only. It is only in the last 10 years that we have had a group dedicated to trying to help the English population in this area. I would really appreciate your comments on this subject.

JT: [speaking in French] Merci. Thank you. Si vous permettez, je réponds on français pour que tout-le-monde puisse entendre. Mais merci de votre utilization de nos deux langues officielles au pays, mais on est en Québec donc je vais répondre en français. Les établissements qui proposent de faire...

ATW: That was Justin Trudeau in Sherbrooke yesterday and as promised the prime minister continued his answer to Judy Ross exclusively in French. We reached Ms. Ross in Magog, Québec.

HM: Judy Ross, how do you feel about Mr. Trudeau's handling of your question yesterday?

JUDY ROSS: At the time, I felt quite… I felt very disrespected and I was disappointed. But by the end of the evening, when he refused to answer any of the six questions that were presented in English, I felt as though we were treated as second-class citizens.

HM: Why do you think he chose to answer in French?

JR: I think he chose to the answer in French only because he felt it would be to his benefit. I think this was a political ploy and I don't think he really thought about the impact it has on people. He was more interested in votes than on concerns of the public.

HM: He did say off the top of that answer that he was choosing to answer in French because that way more of the people who were listening to him would understand. That doesn't satisfy you?

JR: No. What I had expected. I posed the question in English on purpose because I wanted to make the point that English services and mental health that I'm concerned about. And then I expected him to respond to the importance of mental health care. And I expected that to take about one minute in English and then I expected him to switch to French and continue, and that would have been perfectly acceptable. But to start right off making his excuses for answering in French only, I found quite disrespectful. Today I felt much better when I learned that he was equally rude to a gentleman in Peterborough, Ontario.

HM: Because he answered a question that was posed to him in French in English in Peterborough.

JR: That's right.

HM: I mean the Prime Minister's position at least is what has been laid out to us, is that he speaks in the majority language where he is so that most people can understand what he's saying.

JR: But this gentleman is so fluently bilingual, it doesn't do him any credit to exclude one language at any time. He can certainly respond to the questions in both languages. And it would be to his advantage to do so.

HM: And I just want to be clear. You did understand him in French. You speak French.

JR: Yes I do. And I did understand him and I felt that the question was not answered.

HM: I want to play you some tape of the prime minister responding to a question today about your exchange yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: The fact is when I was in Peterborough a few days ago, I took a question in French and answered it in English. In Sherbrooke, in Quebec, the town hall happened in French. I was glad to take questions in English. Surprised, to be quite frank, that there were as many questions in English at the Town Hall, but pleased that so many people from different backgrounds came up. I will always defend official bilingualism, I believe deeply in it, but I also understand the importance of speaking French, of defending the French language in Quebec, and that is something I will continue to do while respecting minority language rights across the country.

HM: So Ms. Ross, what do you think of Mr. Trudeau's comments there?

JR: Well I appreciate the fact that he has respect for bilingualism. I do not respect the fact that he feels he needs to defend the French language in Quebec and I think that he should practice his bilingualism right across the country. I heard from many people and I'm absolutely overwhelmed with the reaction today. People feeling that the question should have been it in the language with which it was proposed and I have to agree with that.

HM: Do you think he has successfully defended minority language rights as he asserts there.

JR: That will not be seen until he behaves differently across the rest of Canada.

HM: How hard is it for minority language groups to get healthcare in their mother tongue in Quebec?

JR: Off the island of Montreal, it is a huge challenge and this is one of the things that really disturbs me is I felt disrespected last evening. But the whole event then turned into a language issue and took away completely from the point that I was trying to make and even our former premier Lucien Bouchard said that health issues need a blood test not a language test. To turn this into a language issue today and ignore the health problem, that's where I am. I'm very sorry about that.

HM: And you were particularly focused on mental health issues.

JR: Yes. The access to the services is difficult, right at the first level. And then if you are successfully getting the services, you need the follow up services are seldom available in a timely manner. In English, I've known people to wait a year or a year and a half to have follow-up after hospitalization. And that's not acceptable. And on this particular subject I expected there to be a greater sensitivity from our Prime Minister because he has not hidden the fact that he supports mental health services and that he's had personal experience within his family. And so I expected more understanding.

HM: Mr. Trudeau has since acknowledged it might have been better for him to answer you in both official languages. What would it take for you to feel satisfied?

JR: I would like to see him behave differently across the rest of Canada and these town meetings. After all, they're promoted as him wanting to hear from Jane and Joe Public. And I think he needs to be ready and willing to answer in both languages anywhere.

HM: Ms. Ross I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you very much.

JR: Thank you.

ATW: Judy Ross is a mental health advocate. She was in Magog, Quebec.

[Music]

Price medicare

ATW: Today in the United States Senate, confirmation hearings continued at a hectic pace for President-Elect Donald Trump's cabinet picks.
Tom Price is Mr. Trump's pick for Secretary of Health and Human Services. His hearing went on for several hours, and Democratic members of the committee had some tough questions for him.
One of the testiest exchanges came when Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren grilled Mr. Price about his plans for Medicare and Medicaid.

SOUNDCLIP

ELIZABETH WARREN: Congressman Price, more than 100 million Americans now receive their health care through Medicare and Medicaid programs. The budget that you recently authored as chair of the House Budget Committee would have cut spending on Medicare by four hundred and forty nine billion dollars over the next decade. Is that right?

TOM PRICE: I don't have the numbers right in front of me.

EW: I have the numbers.

TP: Well then I assume you're correct.

EW: All right. Your FY17 budget proposal also would have cut Medicaid funding that goes to the state governments by more than one trillion dollars. Is that correct?

TP: I think Senator put the metrics that we use for the success of these programs but not necessarily–

EW: I’m just asking. It’s an easily yes or no.

TP: whether the amount of money is–

EW: Did you propose to cut a trillion dollars from Medicaid over the next 10 years?

TP: You have the numbers before you.

EW: Is that a yes?

TP: You have the numbers before you?

EW: I'll take it as a yes. So as I'm sure you're aware, during his campaign for president, President-elect Trump said “I am not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid.” Now when President-elect Trump said “I am not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid.” Do you believe he was telling the truth?

TP: I believe so, yes.

EW: OK. Given your record of proposing massive cuts to these programs along with several other members of this committee, can you guarantee that you will safeguard President-elect Trump's promise?

TP: But what the question presumes is that that money is the metric. In my belief, from a scientific standpoint, if patients aren't receiving care even though we're providing the resources then it doesn't work for you.

EW: Please, I'm sorry to interrupt but we're very limited on time. The metric is money. So that's the question I'm asking you. Can you assure this committee that you will not cut one dollar from either Medicare or Medicaid should you be confirmed to this position.

TP: Senator, I believe that the metric ought to be the care that the patients are receiving.

EW: So I take that as a no?

TP: It's that's the wrong metric. We ought to be putting forth the resources–

EW: I’m not asking you whether or not you think you have a better metric. I'm asking you a question about dollars. Yes or no?

TP: What we ought to do is put forward the resources in order to take care of the patient–

EW: Thank you, Congressman. You know, these are really simple questions. And frankly, the millions of Americans who rely on Medicare and Medicaid today are not going to be very reassured by your notion that you have some metrics other than the dollars that they need to provide these services. You know you might want to print out President-elect Trump's statement “I am not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid” and post them above your desk in your new office because Americans will be watching.

ATW: That was not the end of the fireworks. Ms. Warren went on to question Mr. Price about conflicts of interests. And she alleged that, as a congressman, he had acted to help a company in which he owned stocks. The company, Zimmer Biomet, manufactures hip and knee replacements.

SOUNDCLIP

EW: So on March 17th 2016 you purchased stock in Zimmer Biomed. Exactly six days after you bought the stock on March 23rd 2016, you introduced a bill in the house called the Hip Act that would require HHS secretary to suspend regulations affecting the payment for hip and knee replacements. Is that correct?

TP: I think the BPCI program that to which I think you referred I'm a strong supporter of because it keeps the decision making–

EW: I’m not asking you about why you support it. I'm just asking. Did you buy the stock and then did you introduce a bill that would be helpful to the company that you just bought stock in?

TP: The stock was bought by a direct… by a broker who was making those decisions. I wasn't making those decisions.

EW: These are your stock trades though. They are listed under your name, right?

TP: They're made on my behalf.

EW: OK. Was the stock purchased through an index fund?

TP: I don't believe so.

EW: Through a passively managed mutual fund?

TP: No it’s a broker–

EW: Through an actively managed mutual fund?

TP: It’s a brokered directed account.

EW: Through a blind trust? So let's just be clear this is not just a stockbroker or someone you pay to handle the paperwork. This is someone who buys stock at your direction. This is someone who buys and sells the stock you want them to buy and sell.

TP: Not true, Senator.

EW: So when you found out–

TP: That’s not true, Senator.

EW: Because you decide not to tell them? Wink wink nod nod and we're all just supposed to believe that? I want to understand. When you found out that your broker had made this trade without your knowledge, did you reprimand her?

TP: What I did was comply –

EW: Did you sell the stock?

TP: What I did was comply with the rules of the House in an ethical and legal and above manner and transparent way.

EW: [crosstalk] Ask whether or not the rules of the House let you do this. All right let's stipulate.

SPEAKER: Time has expired, Senator Warren.

EW: I believe Senator Murkowski went over by two minutes. Did I misread the clock here? So your periodic transaction report notes that you were notified of this trade on April 4th 2016. Did you take additional actions after that date to advance your plan to help the company that you own stock in?

TP: I'm offended by the insinuation, Senator.

EW: Well let me just read what you did. You may be offended, but here's what you did. Congressional records show that after you were personally notified of this trade, which you said you didn't know about in advance, that you added 23 out of your bills, 24 of your co-sponsors. That also after you were notified of this stock transaction, you sent a letter to CMS calling on them to cease all current and future planned mandatory initiatives under the center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation. And just so there was no misunderstanding about who you were trying to help, you specifically mentioned hip and knee replacements–

SPEAKER: Two minutes are up, Senator Warren. Thank you.

ATW: That was Senator Elizabeth Warren questioning Congressman Tom Price today at his U.S. Senate confirmation hearing to become secretary of Health and Human Services.

[Music]

John Dean Nightmares

Guest: John Dean

ATW: John Dean knows a thing or two about the consequences of a corrupt president. Mr. Dean was White House counsel under U.S. President Richard Nixon. He took part in and then helped to expose the Watergate scandal. And ever since, he has kept a close eye on presidential abuse of power and looking at President elect Donald Trump, Mr. Dean is so concerned that he says, he's having nightmares. We reached John Dean in Los Angeles, California.

HM: Mr. Dean what is on your mind now that the inauguration of Donald Trump is just two days away?

JOHN DEAN: Donald Trump is on my mind. He's probably the least qualified person we've ever had fill the highest office of our country. This man doesn't even have a good newspaper knowledge of how the presidency works and very little pronation from everything I can see, to try to learn. He is just… he's going to wing it and it is not a good place to do that.

HM: You have said that you have literally been having nightmares about the Trump presidency. Can you describe those for us?

JD: They started during the campaign when I realized there was a good chance that Trump could win. I'm somebody who doesn't really remember any specifics of my dreams. I just know that I… because I was having nightmares about Trump in the Oval Office. I forced myself to wake up and get out of bed on more than one occasion because I was dreaming about it.

HM: How do you think President Trump will compare to the president you served under and spent considerable time with, Richard Nixon?

JD: I think he's Richard Nixon on steroids. He's more Nixonian than Nixon. And I say that because the Nixon that not even the White House staff and people like myself knew, and later discovered on the tapes, I just had passing kind of visions and sort of passing familiarity with that Nixon. He's really a dark person filled with revenge, enemies, very authoritarian.

HM: And are you talking about Trump now?

JD: I'm talking about Nixon. But he's he is that way behind closed doors. Trump is that way all the time. He seems to have no control over a public and private personality and that's a big difference.

HM: Mr. Trump is not the first Republican president post-Nixon that you've had problems with, that you've raised the alarm over. You were you were highly critical of George W. Bush. Do you think the direction the party is taking is part of your problem as well as dealing with the future under Donald Trump?

JD: Absolutely. Well I have voted for Republicans predominantly. I vote for Democrats now because the party has gone so far to the right that I don't even recognize them.

HM: Just how much executive power is Donald Trump inheriting from his predecessor Barack Obama?

JD: A lot. Post-Watergate the president didn't lose power. The Congress in our system became more of a constitutional equal. But that's faded over the years, and particularly during the Bush Cheney years. They took a lot of the tools of the presidency that had not been used in a long time out of the closet and started using them. And Barack Obama did not put them away.
The American presidency is based on Article 2 of the Constitution. There are probably not even a thousand words in that part of the Constitution. It's literally a blank check. And presidents who are popular can exercise pretty unlimited powers. Presidents who are not have to be more careful.

HM: Well how do you anticipate a Donald Trump will use that blank check?

JD: I think he'll test it as far as he can. He doesn't care if he's popular or unpopular. And so I think he'll come in and they'll discover the enormous powers they have. And that's one of the reasons I have nightmares.

HM: You were a White House staffer who ultimately turned against your president. Who or what can rein in the president in terms of potential corruption or abuse of power?

JD: Well obviously exposure, but as I say I'm not sure Trump is going to try to do this like Nixon did behind closed doors. Trump may try to do it very openly. And right now, he has a Republican controlled Congress. I don't think either House would begin to exercise much of an oversight control over the president unless… a couple of things happen. Unless he embarrasses them so badly and his ratings fall even further than they are now, at about 40 percent now. Well if he gets down in the 30s, members of Congress will start running from him and start trying to block him because they’ll not want to be tainted by him or at least that's been the norm in decades past. But I I'm not terribly hopeful that that will happen. And as long as he signs legislation that they want and stays out of their way, and I think everybody will be happy and there will be little oversight of what Trump may or may not do.

HM: Can you share your thoughts on what kinds of policies you see him enacting sort of right out of the gate?

JD: Well he keeps talking about building a wall on our southern border. He's backed off that the Mexicans are going to pay for it, said they'll pay for it later. So he wants to reach in our treasury and build a beautiful wall. So that's one thing he keeps talking about. He also continue to talk about his extreme vetting on even Europeans possibly. Maybe Canadians will get on his list. You know I don't think Trump really knows what he's going to do. His…he's an empty vessel. He's probably got people with an agenda more of an agenda on his transition team that are going to try to get him to do this that and the other thing. He's got some real ideologues that are around him with varying degrees of knowledge of the way Washington works. So no one really knows what's going to happen and he's not going to be able to bring back jobs in manufacturing have really been replaced not by immigration, but by automation.

HM: Some of Trump's critics have suggested he might not actually serve out the full four years. Is it possible impeachment is on the horizon as some of them have suggested?

JD: Well I'm afraid that's not the case. As long as he’s got a Republican Congress and he's letting them do what they want and signing their legislations, they'll be happy.

HM: Mr. Dean, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

JD: Pleasure to talk to you. Bye bye.

HM: Bye bye.

ATW: John Dean was White House counsel under U.S. President Richard Nixon. We reached him in Los Angeles, California.

[Music]

William Onyeabor

ATW: He was a filmmaker who trained in Russia, before making the 1977 film Crashes In Love. Or not. When he started recording music, he played every instrument himself. Or he didn't play anything.
William Onyeabor's biography is full of unverifiable information. When he was asked to verify it, he wouldn't. Even when people from a New York record company told the Nigerian musician it couldn't put his album out unless he gave them more information, he said, "Well, I guess it will never come out then."
By the time he died in Nigeria two days ago, at the age of 70, he hadn't made his unique kind of synthesizer-driven funk in more than thirty years. That's because he became born again in 1985. After that, he disavowed all the albums he'd made. "I am only proud of my music because of the creative aspect of it," he once told the New York Times. "I didn't use it strictly to praise God."
That was a pretty big reversal. Because from 1977 to 1985, he made eight albums. And when I say he made them, I mean that he made them: he composed and recorded all the music and literally pressed all the physical records himself at the record-pressing plant he owned. My point is: he was 100 per cent into making music – until he was 100 per cent out.
In 2013, the American label Luaka Bop helped the rest of the world hear Mr. Onyeabor's music when it released a compilation. It had taken years of effort to get him to sign a deal. And even then, he wouldn't help with the liner notes.
But maybe all that personal information is irrelevant anyway. Maybe everything we need to know is in the music – whether he still liked it or not.

Back To Top »

Part 2: Missouri Homeless, Obama Critic

Missouri Homeless

Guest: Brian Carroll

ANGELINE TETTEH-WAYOE: Until recently, Brian Carroll was the president of a college in Kansas City Missouri. But earlier this month, he was fired. According to the school, Mr. Carroll had violated college rules and put the school's property at risk. The property in question was the school's library. Earlier in January, on a cold night, Mr. Carroll allowed a student to sleep there for the night. The student was homeless, and according to Mr. Carroll had no other options. We reached Mr. Carroll in Salina, Kansas.

HELEN MANN: Mr. Carroll, take us back to early January. How did you meet this student?

BRIAN CARROLL: Well the student’s been attending there for a while. Of course it gets to my desk when he gets to be an issue. So my retention officer told me that we had a student that was schizophrenic. So I kind of got to know him a little bit, you know, to make sure that it was OK and everything. So I kind of knew who he was. I met him. I talked to him. But you know, I just didn't… I know that we were working with him to get him housing. Down here it’s called Section 8 housing, but being schizophrenic he had troubles with filling out the forms, and he would go off his medications a lot. When he was on his meds he was fine, but when he got off it, that’s when there was problems.

HM: And did he have trouble paying for his meds?

BC: Yeah, I actually gave him… so that night when he spent the night, I gave him $10 so he could pay the $6 deductible and take a bus downtown to get it.

HM: Let's talk about that night in particular. What did he tell you about his living situation?

BC: You know it was interesting, because I came up on him in the end… I was locking the building, nobody should have been in the building, and I heard somebody arguing and I came up on him and he was having a conversation with somebody. Nobody was there. But he was having a conversation. So I knew he was off his meds instantly, and I kind of said to him, I go “you can't stay here. It's snowing. And so you know it's going to go to -2. What are you doing tonight?” “I got [unintelligible]” He says to me that well he just goes to sleep where he always sleeps, and I go “Where’s that?” And he says “Out in the woods.” Then I went, “Well, do you have any other place to go tonight?” He said “No, not really. I'll just go out there.” And remember, he's still arguing with himself, you know. Then I said “You're off your meds. You need to get back on them.” And then I had a little argument with that. It took a little while before you know he went “Oh yeah, I'm off my meds. I have had them for a while.”

HM: So were those were those outside conditions, was that unusual for it to be that cold?

BC: Yeah -2. I know it's not a big deal in Canada, but Kansas Citym Missouri. It’s a big deal.

HM: Right, and to give our Canadian listeners an idea, minus two degrees Fahrenheit is about minus 18 degrees Celsius. That's very cold. What did you do?

BC: And that's the thing. When you're there all by yourself, you know, you're all alone, and it's closing, its past closing. And there he. He was just standing there. So I basically allowed him to spend the night. I put him in the library. The rest of the building would go down. The air the air would go off. So there was a fake fireplace heater in the library and I put him in front of it. Now my retention officer told me that if he says he's going to do it, he's going to do it. So I got a commitment out of him. I said “OK, if I let you stay in front of this fire and it’s OK for you to go take a shower. But I want you in here. And then at 9:00 I went out the next day.” We come in on Saturdays. So I go, “I need you out and I need you to take that bus, go to town and get your meds.” And that's exactly what he did.

HM: So he abided by the conditions.

BC: Right. He abided 100 percent by it. No assets were damaged, nothing was injured, nothing. And plus if it did, we had it all on camera.

HM: Did you know that the college administration would frown upon you letting him stay in the library?

BC: I'll be honest with you, I hoped they would have made a better judgment call on me than they did. You know, I literally said to them you know, “Couldn't you just write me up?” And that wasn’t the answer. So I put the assets too much of a risk and they were going to terminate me.

HM: At any point, did it occur to you that if you let him stay there you might lose your job?

BC: No. Maybe I'm just being naive but I've been in education a really long time and I've been a president for at least eight years, but I've never been put in this situation before. I'm from Southern California, and really to me that seemed like a life-threatening situation.

HM: When you were fired, the school's administration argued that you had a range of options that could have allowed you to help the student that night. What else might you have done?

BC: Well let's go through those options. Put him up in a hotel. Good option but I'm not sure if it would have changed my outcome. Meaning, you can't put a student in a car, that’s a school policy. You can't take them to your home. That's a school policy. So my only option left at that moment, on a Friday night, alone in the building with a student and an ice falling out front, is to lock him out of the building, get in my car, drive and check out the hotel, find a room for him, pay for it, go back and while he's standing outside, tell him he has to walk to the hotel.

HM: And there's no shelter in town.

BC: Well we're on the outskirts of town. You have to get downtown.

HM: Could you have arranged for him to be in a shelter?

BC: That night. No, I don't have that ability. You know I don't have the capabilities to figure out how to get him to a shelter and I can't put him in my car.

HM: So you know you can't put him in the car and you can't take him to your home. Those are written down rules. Were there any rules about a student sleeping on school facilities in school, on the campus?

BC: Interestingly enough, no. My job is to protect the corporate assets. I put him at jeopardy according to them. However nothing was stolen or damaged. I had to weigh two risks. The risk of him destroying the place versus he possibly dying in the woods that night.

HM: Did the school allude to his schizophrenia. Do you think that might have been a factor in their response?

BC: I don't think they even knew anything about the student. I don't think they cared. And they hadn't even investigated see if anything was stolen.

HM: Have you heard anything from the student at all. Do you know how he's doing?

BC: He was back in class Monday and fine and he wasn't talking to himself. So as far as I know, I'm not even sure he knows that this has happened. You know that I got fired because of him.

HM: How are you doing?

BC: I'm… it's kind of rough I mean I'm trying to get home and it's winter and you know, I’ve had to pack up everything, spend a week doing that, get everything back to California. So it's hard. I'm not going to say… and I don't have a job. So you know, it's tough.

HM: Would you do it the same way all over again?

BC: Looking back, I probably would have paid for the hotel room myself, but I still would have put him in the car and driven him to the hotel. And that would have been grounds for firing as well.

HM: Well Mr. Carroll, thank you for telling us your story. I appreciate it.

BC: Thank you so much for talking to me.

HM: All right, good bye.

BC: Bye.

ATW: Brian Carroll is the former president of Vatterott College in Kansas City, Missouri. He was fired this month, after he let a homeless student sleep in the school's library. We reached Mr. Carroll in Salina, Kansas.

[Music]

Carol announcement

HM: At this point, you may be wondering when Carol is going to come back from her vacation at an all-inclusive resort on a tropical island somewhere. Well, unfortunately, she's not enjoying happy hour at the swim-up bar at the moment. She's at home, recovering from pneumonia. We're not exactly sure when to expect her back. But rest assured she'll return the minute she is able to. Get well soon Carol.

[Music]

Scott Pruitt Hearing

ATW: The hurried Senate confirmation hearings for the incoming U.S. cabinet continued today, with President-Elect Trump's pick to lead the Environmental Protection Agency, Scott Pruitt.
Critics have said it wasn't just Mr. Pruitt who would stand trial today, but also science itself. Mr. Pruitt is a known climate change skeptic, while President-Elect Trump himself has called it a hoax made up by the Chinese.
Early in his hearing the Oklahoma attorney general stated he did not believe climate change was a hoax. Later Senator Bernie Sanders pressed Mr. Pruitt for details. Here's how that interaction went.

SOUNDCLIP

BERNIE SANDERS: Some 97 percent of scientists who have written articles for peer reviewed journals have concluded that climate change is real. It is caused by human activity and it is already causing devastating problems in our country and around the world. Do you believe that climate change is caused by the emission by carbon emissions by human activity?

SCOTT PRUITT: Senator, as I indicated in my opening statement, climate the climate is changing, and human activity contributes to that in some manner.

BS: In some manner. 97 percent of the scientists who wrote articles in peer reviewed journals believed that human activity is the fundamental reason we are seeing climate change. You disagree with that.

SP: I believe the ability to measure with precision the degree of human activities impact on the climate is subject to more debate on whether the climate is changing or whether human activity contributes to it.

BS: So you are applying for a job as administrator for the EPA, to protect our environment. Overwhelming majority of scientists say we have got to act boldly. And you're telling me that there needs to be more debate on this issue and that we should not be acting boldly.

SP: No Senator. As I've indicated, climate the climate is changing.

BS: But you haven’t told my why you think the climate is changing.

SP: Well Senator, the job of the administrator is to carry out the statutes as passed by this body and–

BS: Why is the climate changing?

SP: Senator, in response to the CO2 issue. The EPA administrator is constrained by statutes–

BS: I'm asking you a personal opinion.

SP: My personal opinion is is immaterial to the job of… the job–

BS: You are going to be the head of the agency to protect the environment. And your personal feelings about whether climate change is caused by human activity and carbon emissions is immaterial?

SP: Senator I've acknowledged to you that the human activity impacts–

BS: Impacts. Scientific community doesn't tell us it impacts. They say it is the cause of climate change. We have to transform our energy system. Do you believe we have to transform our energy system in order to protect the planet for future generations?

SP: I believe the EPA is a very important role at regulating the–

BS: You didn't answer my question. Do you believe we have to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to do what the scientific community is telling us in order to make sure that this planet is healthy for our children and grandchildren?

SP: Senator I believe that the administrator has a very important role to perform in regulating CO2.

ATW: That was Senator Bernie Sanders questioning Scott Pruitt on climate change during his confirmation hearing in Washington today. Mr. Pruitt is president elect Donald Trump's pick to head the Environmental Protection Agency. Also today, American scientists announced that 2016 was the third straight time that the earth set a record for the hottest year on record. NASA and National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientists attributed the continually rising global temperatures largely to human activity.

[Music]

Obama critic

Guest: William Darity Jr.

ATW: The day after tomorrow, U-S President Barack Obama will take a last look around the house he's lived in for the past eight years, and then say goodbye. His eight years in office have been indisputably historic. But it remains to be seen exactly what his legacy will be.
Last week, we talked to a personal friend of President Obama's: the Reverend Alvin Love. Here's part of what he told us about his view of the President's legacy:

SOUNDCLIP

ALVIN LOVE: I think his biggest legacy is not so much in programs and laws but it is in that kind of attitude that he brought to the country, the kind of sense of hope, and the tremendous amount of young people that he brought to the federal government.

ATW: You can find our full interview with Reverend Alvin Love on our website. But not everyone's assessment of President Obama's reign is so glowing. William Darity Jr. is an economist and professor at Duke University. He wrote a piece for The Atlantic magazine called “How Barack Obama Failed Black Americans.” We reached Professor Darity Jr. in Durham North Carolina.

HM: Professor Darity you open your piece in The Atlantic by talking about your father. What was his view of Barack Obama?

WILLIAM DARITY JR: Well my father's view of Barack Obama was very enthusiastic. I think my father was thrilled about the prospect of actually having a black president in the United States, something that he didn't anticipate would happen in his lifetime. My father had somewhat of a reverential attitude towards Barack Obama and towards his family. And I think that it obscured his capacity to actually have a critical eye about Barack Obama. I don't think my father was unusual in that. I think there was a lot of joy in the black community in the United States over the election of Barack Obama.

HM: You write that you had a queasy feeling about Barack Obama's candidacy going back to that famous speech in 2004 at the Democratic National Convention that so many people lauded and saw him as this amazing character who was going to be someone big in shaping the future of America. Not for you though. What was the first sign for you he might not live up to expectations?

WDJ: There was a point in the speech where he invoked the claim that black kids are less likely to work hard in school because they're afraid of being accused of acting white. This always struck me as a very very peculiar argument and a very dangerous one. But it also is an argument that is suggestive of a more general perspective that argues that black folk in the United States are essentially responsible for their own predicament. I think Barack Obama used those tropes continuously throughout the course of the campaigns and over the course of his two terms as president. And so unfortunately, I think my queasy feeling was fulfilled. I'm disappointed in a way that I was actually prophetic about what was going to happen.

HM: Of course Mr. Obama took power in the midst of the Great Recession. What were you hoping that his response to that economic crisis would be?

WDJ: I was hoping that his response to the crisis would take the form of direct action on behalf of the folks who are most severely harmed by the downturn. Instead of providing vast amounts of resources to the investment banking community, I think we would have been far better served in terms of having a national employment program, an emergency employment program, as well as giving resources to folks who were about to lose their homes as a consequence of the subprime mortgage crisis. So I think that actually it was an incorrect approach to the Great Recession. And I don't view Barack Obama's practices as having saved the American economy.

HM: Has the situation for black Americans changed in any way under Obama?

WDJ: Not in a significant way. And if anything on some indicators, for the worse. So for example, if we were to look at the gap in wealth between blacks and whites in the United States at the onset of the Great Recession, blacks had at the median, 10 cents per dollar of the wealth that was held by whites. Today it's about five cents per dollar. So the situation actually has gotten worse in terms of that gap.

HM: So why do you think he didn't adopt more revolutionary policies during this eight years?

WDJ: I think that there is a certain kind of temperament that is characteristic of Barack Obama that is non-confrontational and some respects is relatively passive. He certainly is not willing to talk about it in a very open and direct way the nature of racism in American society, and how it has affected black America and how it continues to affect black America across the trajectory of the history of this country. So I think it's maybe a matter of temperament that he's a person of moderation, but unfortunately he is a person of moderation in a situation that does not require moderation. It required something much more dramatic.

HM: Some say that moderation is actually a positive. Not for you.

WDJ: Not for me. No I think that one of the big consequences of that is to preserve the illusion that racial conditions in the United States have improved when in fact they really haven't changed in any significant way.

HM: So looking over this time, what do you think President Obama's legacy will be.

WDJ: Well I think it will be twofold. I think that there will be a symbolic legacy that's associated with the importance that many people attach to having had the breakthrough of having a black man elected as president of the United States. But unfortunately, I think that the substantive legacy of his presidency will unfortunately be the rise of the Trump regime. I think that, you know the failure of Barack Obama to explicitly and openly confront discrimination and racism in American society, left the door wide open for the ascent of a strong and virulent white supremacist movement in the United States that has put somebody in the presidency who is appointing people to Cabinet positions who are openly hostile towards the prospect of racial equality.

HM: Given how deep seated some of that racism is, what do you think he could have done to prevent that that rise?

WDJ: Well one of the things that I've found deeply problematic about Barack Obama's presidency is his use of these tropes of black dysfunction. And so if Barack Obama had instead attempted to confront those narratives, challenge them, use the bully pulpit to help us think about race in America in a very different way, I don't think we'd be in the situation that we're in now.

HM: You write that the struggle for reparations and for black lives and justice must continue, with or without Barack Obama in the fold. What do you think is the next step in that struggle, particularly under the new administration?

WDJ: I think that the struggle is going to involve, for the time being, strong efforts to bring about policy changes at the municipal and at the state level, because I don't think that, for the time being, anything significant positive is going to be able to be accomplished at the federal level in the United States.

HM: Professor Darity thank you for taking time to speak with us today.

WDJ: Thank you for having me.

ATW: William Darity Jr. is an economist and professor at Duke University. We reached him in Durham, North Carolina. You can find a link to his essay, “How Barack Obama Failed Black Americans” on our website, cbc.ca/aih.

Back To Top »

Part 3: Pussy Hat Shortage: Buffy Sainte-Marie JUNO humanitarian Award

B.C. Opioid News

ATW: In the past year there's been plenty of anecdotal evidence about the effects of opioid addiction in British Columbia. We heard stories of overloaded paramedics, of families demanding coroners inquests, and of overdose death almost every day. Today the province heard numbers to back up the stories and the numbers were shocking. According to the B.C. coroner service, 916 people died of illicit drug overdoses in 2016, a 79 percent spike compared to 2015. In December alone, there were 142 deaths. Today, Chief Coroner Lisa LaPointe said that fentanyl, a drug that is 100 times more potent than heroin was a big factor in the increase. Mr. LaPointe spoke at a press conference today. Here's part of what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA LAPOINTE: Tragically, despite dedicated efforts to stem the tide, the month of December saw the highest monthly number of illicit drug deaths recorded in B.C. All regions and major townships of the province have been impacted, showing higher numbers of deaths in December than the previous month. Vancouver alone suffered the loss of 51 people during the month of December. The yearend data show that more than half of all illicit drug does involved people between the ages of 30 and 49, and that four out of five who died were male. Most of those who died were in a residence, about 85 percent. There were no deaths at supervised consumption sites, or drug overdose prevention sites.
We know that these numbers represent suffering and devastation in communities across the province. And my heart goes out to the families and friends of those who have lost their lives. To those who might ask why the numbers keep growing despite the significant harm reduction measures being implemented, I would respond by noting emphatically that but for the dedicated efforts of emergency health responders, social agencies, volunteers and public servants across ministries and agencies, I have no doubt these numbers would be much, much higher.
I think we're all starting to realize that these deaths we're seeing represent the tip of the iceberg in terms of illicit drug dependency in B.C. Where previously, many of those using illicit drugs were able to carefully manage risk, there is no ability to do that now. My agency recognizes that those who are suffering from dependency are not going to be able to abstain immediately from drug use. But given the increasing risk of contaminated drugs and the growing number of deaths, I urge them to use only in the presence of medical expertise, or at the very least, a sober person with access to, and training in the use of Naloxone. All others are strongly advised to avoid experimentation and casual use of illicit drugs. The risks are simply unmanageable.

ATW: That was B.C chief corner Lisa LaPointe speaking at a press conference today.

[Music]

Pussy Hat Shortage

Guest: Amelia Lyon

ANGELINE TETTEH-WAYOE: Now, before I tell you about these hats, I'm going to give you a language warning. Because some listeners may be offended by what they're called.
The hats are pink. They've got cat-like ears. And you've probably seen a picture of at least one of them on your social media feeds recently.
They're called "pussy hats." And people are knitting the toques in advance of the Women's March on Washington this weekend, the day after President-elect Donald Trump's inauguration.
The so-called "Pussyhat Project" was founded in the US, but many north of the border are knitting the hats as well. And the demand for pink yarn has left Amelia Lyon's store running low. She's the co-owner of the Toronto shop Yarns Untangled. We reached her near Oshawa, Ontario. And another quick warning, she'll be talking about pussy hats.

HELEN MANN: Ms. Lyon, have you run out of pink yarn yet?

AMELIA LYON: Not yet. Almost though, we've got probably about 10, maybe 15 balls left.

HM: Have you ever sold this much of one color yarn before?

AL: Not all in one go, that's for sure. Definitely not.

HM: And how much do you think you've actually sold?

AL: Oh goodness that's a really good question. I think off the top of my head I would say we've probably sold 40 to 50 balls.

HM: Have you had to order in new supply?

AL: Yes. Yes we have. We have it sort of arriving any day now.

HM: Wow. So when did you first notice people coming into the store and asking for pink yarn?

AL: I would say it's about 10 days ago, at this point. It was just shortly after I heard of the project the first time.

HM: And are they asking for a specific shade of pink?

AL: They are yeah. As hot as they can get.

HM: And are these regular customers or are you seeing a lot of newbies?

AL: A little bit of both. Some of them are regulars, that that's who we saw asking for at first, but then lots of new people as well who are coming because they saw our listing on the Pussy Hat project website.

HM: Right. So for those who are not familiar with this movement which started in the US, maybe you could tell us what it is.

AL: Right. So this is basically a way for knitter's and crocheters, who can't otherwise make it the March on Washington or one of the other marches, to participate. Basically we are making pink hats with little ears called pussy hats and sending them to drop off points all around the United States and now Canada as well. And then marchers who want to wear one can come to the drop off point and pick one up.

HM: And this the point of this is a dig at some of the more provocative comments from President-elect Trump. Can you remind people?

AL: I can, I can use. He's probably best remembered for having bragged about grabbing women by the sea. And I think this is basically a way for women to take the most sensitive part of their body back from him. And you know, turn it around and wear it with pride on their heads.

HM: Some people are offended. They were offended when they heard him say it. They may be offended by the use of the language. Is there something in in claiming that word that is somehow empowering?

AL: I think so. Like with any taboo word in culture, when you can take it back and make it your own, I think that's an absolutely empowering thing. It's the kind of word that so many of us wouldn't have been comfortable saying out loud, in advance. But now, you know you get used to it pretty quickly.

HM: So those who want to take part in this. How are they doing it? How do they figure out how to make the hats?

AL: Knitters who want to take part in this, there are quite a few patterns available online for free. The project itself has instructions on how to make one. And then there are a bunch of other different ways you can make them, either knitting or crochet. I’ve seen people making them out of fleece, so sewing them by hand as well. And you can make them at home, it’s an easy, easy project, an absolute beginner knitter could make one in a few hours. And then they are dropping them off or sending them by mail to one of the drop-off points.

HM: And you are one of the drop-off points?

AL: We are, yes.

HM: Right. So they're all being sent to one place where people will pick them up in Washington? Is that that how it works?

AL: There is there is kind of a headquarters to the movement in Washington. There was a photograph I saw on the internet a couple of days ago of bags and bags and bags of these hats. Something like 7000 bags, 7000 hats in bags, still growing. And yeah, they will be giving them out in advance I think, and also at the march itself, handing them out to people who are there.

HM: Do you envision both men and women wearing these hats?

AL: Oh absolutely. At least I can tell you in particular of one 10 year old boy who I'm making for myself as we speak, who’s going to be in the march itself in Toronto on Saturday.

HM: Right. And that March is like one of many I guess for those who aren't going to be in Washington. What's the plan for that besides wearing the hat?

AL: That's a good question. I believe it's mostly just to come together meet with as many people, men women, anyone who feels that they want to show their solidarity and be a part of this movement. The sea of pink hats I think is really what they're going for here. To see as many different people wearing as many different shades of paint that can come.

HM: As a Canadian, what's the message you want to send across the border?

AL: Solidarity for sure. And not only is it, is it that we you know we want Americans to stay strong and believe in themselves and believe in their country. We also, you know, we’re affected by the leadership in the United States almost as much as we are affected by our own, perhaps more, one could argue. So we weren't able to vote. But at least we are able to you know show our colors this way.

HM: Do you think there's a risk that this whole effort will possibly embolden Trump and his supporters even more?

AL: I mean it's a fair question. I think that he can find empowerment wherever he chooses to find it. So that's always a risk, no matter what you say, but that's not reason enough not to do something.

HM: Do you think you'll be wearing yours beyond the event on Saturday?

AL: Oh sure absolutely. They're terribly comfortable and very warm.

HM: And you'll still be sending a message.

AL: Yes. Oh I think so.

HM: All right. Ms. Lyon, thank you very much for speaking with us.

AL: No problem. Thank you.

HM: OK, bye

AL: Bye.

ATW: Amelia Lyon is the co-owner of the Toronto store Yarns Untangled. We reached here near Oshawa, Ontario.

[Music]

Obama final presser

ATW: Today, Barack Obama gave one final press conference as U.S. President.
He praised the journalists who'd covered him, and encouraged them to cover the incoming administration with the same tenacity. He addressed his decision to commute the sentence of U.S. army private, Chelsea Manning, saying that he felt justice had been served.
The final question came from the reporter Christi Parsons, who has covered Barack Obama since his days as State Senator. She asked how he and his wife Michelle Obama have talked to their daughters about the meaning of the last election. Here's part of what he had to say:

SOUNDCLIP

BARACK OBAMA: I think they have, in part through osmosis and part through dinner time conversations, appreciated the fact that this is a big complicated country and democracy is messy and it doesn't always work exactly the way you might want. It doesn't guarantee certain outcomes. But if you… if you're engaged and you're involved, then there are a lot more good people than bad in this country and there's a core decency to this country. And that they have got to be a part on lifting that up. And I expect they will be. And in that sense, they are representative of this generation that makes me really optimistic. I've been asked… I've had some authorized conversations with some journalists where they said, “OK, you seem like you're OK, but really, really what are you thinking?” And I've said “No.” What I'm saying really is what I think. I believe in this country. I believe in the American people. I believe that people are more good than bad. I believe tragic things happen. I think there's evil in the world, but I think that at the end of the day, if we work hard, and if we're true to those things in us that feel true and feel right, that the world gets a little better each time. That's what this presidency is trying to be about. And I see that in the young people I've worked with. I couldn't be prouder of them. And so this is not just a matter of ‘no drama Obama.’ This is… this is what I really believe. It is true that behind closed doors, I curse more than I do in public. And sometimes I get mad and frustrated like everybody else does. But at my core, I think we're going to be OK. We just have to fight for it we have to work for it and not take it for granted. And I know that you will help us do that. Thank you very much, press corps.

ATW: That was President Barack Obama in his final press conference as president, earlier today.

[Music]

Buffy Saint-Marie

Guest: Buffy Saint-Marie

ATW: Over a career that's lasted more than fifty years so far, Buffy Sainte-Marie has been one of Canada's most outspoken, and fearless artists. And her music is as vital now as it was when she started out in the early 'sixties: in 2015, she won the Polaris Music Prize for her album "Power in the Blood".
And now, she's about to win another JUNO Award. But this one's not just for music: she'll be honoured with the Allan Waters Humanitarian Award, for her work protecting Indigenous people and culture.
Buffy Sainte-Marie was born on the Piapot Plains Cree First Nation Reserve in the Qu'Appelle Valley in Saskatchewan. We reached her in Hawaii.

HM: Buffy Saint-Marie, first of all, congratulations on this award.

BUFFY SAINT-MARIE: Thank you. It's pretty daunting.

HM: But you received so many awards and honors over the years. What does this particular one, and what it's for, mean to you.

BSM: You know what, the first… when somebody broke the news to me, I was just so flattered. And I remember seeing the Arcade Fire piece that was done at the JUNOs, I think it was the year before last. And just seeing that the JUNOs actually care about what artists are doing outside of making records. I mean, that's a step forward and for the record business, I think. You know, I've been in the record industry for a long time, and I do appreciate it when the business side recognizes the visionary side of artists, because philanthropy giving… you know, they're not all about just handing out cash and money. And it's so beautiful to see the JUNOs honor the work that artists are doing out of the spotlight. It's pretty humbling to be included with the other artists I see on this list. Yikes.

HM: You know it's interesting you should say this because so many performers, musicians in particular, are known for the causes they take up. I mean activism is hardly new to the businesses. I don't need to tell you that. It sounds like you think somehow that is being more accepted by the corporate world.

BSM: I hope so. You know the corporate world seems to have one huge thing on its side and that is salesmanship, marketing, money, you know. And yet the music industry isn't only about that. I mean is that part of it comes as quite a surprise to a lot of the artists that I know. And to me personally it did. I really never realized, as a young artist, I never realized that it's really about the business. I thought it was about the art and the music, and I think most artists will feel that way. So to have the visionary side of what artists do in their… on and off stage. I think it's a big step forward and I appreciate it very much.

HM: Let's talk a little bit about your vision. You have been called an “instigator of change” when it comes to your activism in support of Indigenous people. How would you characterize what you have done and what you continue to do?

BSM: Well the first place I'm lucky ,I'm very fortunate in that I have all these airplane tickets and I can go flying all over the world, to this reserve and that reserve, even beyond. You know in Australia and in Scandinavia, you know I'm involved with Indigenous communities there. And when your eyes are open to that kind of facts, and when you're meeting people who are just plain real, and they're really are from those traditional indigenous communities, you learn something that you never forget about the sweetness and the diversity and the fun of people everywhere. And you learn that it's more than just war and money and headlines. And I'm fortunate enough to have had a whole lifetime of being a bridge between those two worlds, and it's beautiful to… it was beautiful even the first time that I did it. You know, when I brought Indigenous culture to the people I was singing for in Paris for instance, and then I bring the rock and roll shows to a reserve. So it's really nice to be bicultural and to go back and forth. I think maybe that's been something of lasting value beyond myself.

HM: Is it daunting at any time for you to have the voices of these people in your ear and to have, I guess, the expectations that you're going to bring their issues to the public light?

BSM: No, I don't think anybody has those expectations, really. I think they're surprised when anybody says anything. I mean when it comes to Indigenous stuff, we are such a small population, and it’s such a drop in the bucket. That's why I continue to bring both the bad news and the good news in and out of Indian country because I'm with the people. I know we can make good changes not only within our own communities but beyond our communities where help is really needed in understanding the tangle of colonialism. I mean “stay calm and decolonize” is my motto and it has been for a long time. But maybe, I think maybe the Allan Waters Award isn't only talking about Indigenous issues, I think probably they're talking about things like Universal Soldier and Moratorium and Power in the Blood and We Are Circling and Carrying On. Things that affect everybody are also you know front and center when it comes to being a songwriter living in this world that we live in. Somethings are about Indigenous issues and others are not.

HM: Some of you work towards peace for example.

BSM: Yeah. And I'm glad you put it that way because some people will say oh Buffy, you’re such a warrior and I just… “No, don't call me a warrior.” That's a word that should be reserved for veterans and soldiers who actually will go out and you know risk getting killed, which I will not, or kill somebody else for whoever the politicians at the moment. I won't do that either. So alternative conflict resolution is the word for me. So I don't say that I'm a pacifist or a warrior. I say that I promote alternative conflict resolution. Which is good you know, and sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle of shouting polarities. Just deal with it, just do it just make it better wherever you find it.

HM: I'm wondering given that you've been doing this kind of work for four decades, how the world around you has changed. How your activism may have changed over the course of time.

BSM: Oh gosh it's always changing, you know think of it in ways that goes up and down back and forth, in and out. Snd you know you just do what you can where you happen to be. Also most of the time, I'm not at home. I'm usually in an airport somewhere or on the way to some concert. You know, I travel so much But I think that the people who are now on the Internet, they deserve to be there. They haven't had any impact for all these years. When some guy controlled the radio station, the TV, the education system, you know it was all so colonialized, and a handful of guys seemed to be running the world.

HM: Earlier this week and As It Happens, we discussed a report that was released on the weekend by the Quebec coroner, and he cited an ancient apartheid system that was the language used, saying that contributed to a string of suicides in 2015 in a remote Quebec Innu community, Uashat-Maliotenam. What do you think of his use of the term apartheid?

BSM: No actually, I think the use of apartheid is, you know, is appropriate in discussing a lot of what has happened in Canada with regard to Aboriginal people. And it's true and it goes all the way back to the 1500s. That's why we're still squawking, we're really trying to get Pope Francis to do away with don't just apologize. Do away with the doctrine of discovery. Because the doctrine of discovery in the 1500s got imbedded in the last systems of all the colonial New Nation States founded by the British, the Dutch the Portuguese, the French and the Spanish. And the doctrine of discovery is still impacting Aboriginal people in the way that apartheid impacted South Africa.

HM: Yeah we look at the history of your songs, I mean going back to Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, more recently Uranium War. You're talking about the stranglehold you see that corporations have on the lives of many Indigenous people in fighting that. Who do you hope is listening to those songs? What do you want to inspire in them?

BSM: Thinking mostly. I feel that sometimes I'm delivering new information or else I'm delivering information that has been there all along but it hasn't been presented in a three minute song.
I could write a 400 page book that nobody would ever read and it wind up on the shelf in two weeks. But a three minute song can last forever you know. It's portable, and it's replicable and people can do it in different ways. But it's mostly about getting the underlying message into the heads of people who are open to hearing it. And sometimes even not open to hearing it. And they you know they have to be clever sometimes. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee is very clever. You're listening to a rock and roll song before you realize what it's about. Which is something quite serious. I think what's important about my catalogue. It's not just a catalog of protest songs but it's a whole lot of love songs, and songs about all kinds of things. Country songs and rock songs and dance songs. And when you put it all together, the protest songs which are really, really strong, you get a different perspective on them. When you realize that they're coming from somebody who really loves life. You know I'm really writing it from the point of hoping to have an impact on people and supporting their own love of life. And a lot of people not bothering to do that right now. I don't know where all the great protest songs are. I mean here we have these extraordinary developments in many countries of, you know, people getting elected. And I don't know where Paul Simon and Sting and the rest of them are, but I don't know. I just don't know. I don't know if people are not courageous or not thinking. Where are the songs?

HM: Do you see a new generation of protest song writers potentially taking their place?

BSM: Now and then I do, you know. But for the most part no. People are writing songs in the music business to get rich and famous. By and large where I see it most is in hip hop. I think a lot of the great songs of meaning are coming through hip hop you know, they might be done by white people, Aboriginal people, black people, whoever. But that seems to be the genre where people are really saying things. And of course reggae always has.

HM: Who in this generation then are you listening to? Who do you think we should be listening to?

BSM: You know who I’ve been listening to? Alanis Morisette [sound: laughs]. Jagged Little Pill continues to be its best record ever. I mean the things that she's protesting just from… she’s yelling like heck about very personal issues. You know a lot of people can relate to that. Certainly A Tribe Called Red. They're not doing things that are so much protest as they're sticking up within the hip hop community for the fact that Indians exist which is something I've been happy about. I'm looking at Beyoncé, and she's certainly sticking up for certain domestic points of view.
But most of the popular players of this time are not doing it. It's very hard to get it through the record business system. So maybe these other great writers are writing protest songs and they just can't get them through the record business system. I don't know. I'm asking I have the same question as you, Helen.

HM: What are we going to hear from you when you accept this JUNO? You know what's the big message you want us to take from it?

BSM: Oh gosh I don't know. I haven’t figured that out. I'm just getting used to it. I'm going to say thank you. I think that there are little things that are important in philanthropy of any kind. In the first place, I don't think all philanthropy is about giving. I've never taken a salary in my own foundation. I don't believe in that. I think that giving is really about the courage to risk whatever you have, whoever you are, wherever you find yourself in order to make something better. And I'm just truly honored to be a part of the JUNO organization that recognizes this in artists. You know, we're not just keys to the cash register for the music business. We sometimes really are out there slugging it out with the best of intentions working with some really very, very deserving people and causes.

HM: Buffy Sainte-Marie It's great to talk with you. Thank you very much.

BSM: Thank you too Helen.

HM: All the best. Bye bye.

BSM: Bye.

ATW: We reached Buffy St Marie in Hawaii. Today the Juno Awards announced that the iconic Canadian musician and activist is being honored with the Alan waters humanitarian award. And you can find more on this story on our Web site, cbc.ca/aih

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Jan 18, 2017 episode transcript

More Stories Like This