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The AIH Transcript for January 17, 2016

Hosts: Helen Mann and Karen Gordon

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

KAREN GORDON: I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight:

HM: To cut a long sentence short. Chelsea Manning who was convicted for leaking U.S. secrets will be released from prison almost 30 years early, after President Obama commutes her sentence.

KG: It will never be off his radar. Investigators suspend the search for Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 and the father of a passenger on that last plane worries he'll never know what happened to his son.

HM: Mistakes were made. The Nigerian military admits to a colossal error: instead of bombing Boko Haram militants, one of its fighter planes bombed a refugee camp killing more than 100 people.

KG: Doing things the “hard” way. British Prime Minister Theresa May makes it clear her government will opt for a so-called hard Brex it. meaning the UK will make a clean break from the EU.

HM: Teed off over who will tee off. In the midst of a fight at a Washington-area golf club over whether to admit Barack Obama. Our guest decides he doesn't want to belong to any club that won't accept the President as a member.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Chelsea Manning sentence commuted, Nigeria bombing, May Brexit speech

Chelsea Manning sentence commuted

Guest: Evan Greer

KG: In one of his final acts as U.S. President, Barack Obama has decided to set Chelsea Manning free as you've been hearing on the news, the Army intelligence analyst who was convicted of leaking a huge trove of documents in 2010 will have her sentence commuted and will be released in May. She served almost seven years of her sentence and was due to be released in 2045. Evan Greer is a free speech activist and a friend of Chelsea Manning. We reached her in Boston.

HM: Evan, just start please by sharing your reaction to this announcement that Chelsea Manning sentence will be commuted?

EVAN GREER: you know I'm just totally elated at this news. As someone who has been able to become friends with Chelsea over the last year, but has never actually seen her face or been able to give her a hug. It's incredible to know that she is going to get out and will be able to share her gifts with the world and share the beautiful person that she is with the world.

HM: How did you find out the news?

EG: I was actually on the train and got a phone call from a reporter asking for my comment on the news that President Obama had commuted Chelsea’s sentence. And suffice to say my reaction was emotional enough that the other people on the train were probably a little concerned about me. But you know we've been scrambling to catch up since then.

HM: There's been quite a bit of lobbying obviously a lot of speculation about whether this might happen. What do you think might have led President Obama to make this decision?

EG: You know I think there's just been such a groundswell of support for Chelsea and a huge amount of criticism of the Obama administration for you know really waging a war on whistleblowers and on people who expose government wrongdoing. And I think that pressure came to a head and it was clear that there was such a tremendous amount of support. It was clear that the treatment of Chelsea was so egregious and so inhumane it was making headlines all over the world. The United Nations was condemning it. Every leading human rights organization in the world was saying that this was unacceptable. And I think Obama recognized that you know there was really only one thing to do to prevent this from becoming a permanent stain on his legacy.

HM: And yet there are those in the United States and elsewhere who saw her actions as potentially traitorous and putting other people at risk. How do you answer them?

EG: You know the reality is that the intelligence community itself admitted that no one ever was put in harm's way. No one ever lost their life or you know was damaged by any of Chelsea’s actions. She was always motivated out of wanting to support the public interest. And you know I think the reality is at this point, after so long she already been in prison for longer than any other whistleblower in U.S. history. Even those who believe that what she did was wrong should understand that her sentence was unreasonably harsh and she's already served six years of hard time. And you know faced immeasurable abuse at the hands of the government while incarcerated. I think the bottom line here is that she has suffered enough and it's time for her to go home.

HM: That abuse you mentioned is that largely because she is transgender in a male facility.

EG: So that has definitely been a huge factor. Chelsea has been systematically denied you know help with her gender transition. She is being held at an all-male military facility. And you know I think beyond that she has faced general harassment as an attempt to silence her voice. You know as a Guardian columnist, as someone who is running a Twitter account, she has become a voice in the world. And I think you know that impacted her treatment in prison as well. And you know I think that is you know really became the story here was how terribly she was being treated. And it's just so wonderful that we were able to mount this resistance. And you know put enough pressure on the president to do the right thing here.

HM: How do you know Chelsea Manning?

EG: You know I met Chelsea on the phone. She reached out to me because of my work as a free speech advocate. And I think also because I'm also transgender and we share that. And so my organization Fight for the Future has been supporting her over the last year and doing her best to campaign for her. And I just feel very fortunate to have gotten to know her a little bit and I can't wait to meet her in person.

HM: This has been a particularly rough year. We've heard that she has attempted suicide twice. Can you tell us about the concerns that you and her other supporters have had for her health.

EG: Absolutely. I mean as you said healthy attempted to take her own life twice over the last year as a direct result of inadequate health care that she was receiving and her treatment. After the first suicide attempt, she was actually punished with solitary confinement which you know psychological experts decried as you know something that was just an awful thing to do to someone who had just survived a suicide attempt. So it has been a very difficult year for her and I know you know we were all very concerned for what would happen to her if she didn't get out. And so you know that makes us all the more overjoyed that you know she seems to have been saved from a potentially nightmarish state if she continued to be incarcerated.

HM: How do you expect President-elect Donald Trump and his new administration will view this decision?

EG: You know it's very difficult to say and I think you know maybe it's a bit of a moot point at this point and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

HM: Julian Assange has said very recently that he would agree to extradition if Chelsea Manning was granted clemency. What do you think the implications might be for Assenge and for people like Edward Snowden?

EG: You know I think it's impossible to speculate on that at this point. I think you know Chelsea has made it very clear that she's her own person and I think the support that she is seeing is related to ongoing struggles around whistleblower's and those who expose government wrongdoing in general. But I think you know it's not particularly my place at this point to speculate on how impact these other cases. Beyond just that I think you know it should send a message to governments around the world that people really care about these folks when they when they speak out. And you know they should receive protection.

HM: She's set to be released in May. What kind of plans will you and others put in place in anticipation of that date?

EG: I think we'll be figuring that out now. You know certainly her supporters and her legal team will be there to welcome her in and help her figure out what her next steps are.

HM: Evan Greer, I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you very much.

EG: Thanks so much for having me on.

KG: Evan Greer is a free speech activist and a friend of Chelsea Manning. She was in Boston. This afternoon U.S. President Barack Obama commuted MS sendings. Ms. Manning sentence she'll be released in May.

[Music: Piano]

Nigeria bombing

Guest: Hugue Robert

KG: Nigeria's military says it has made a terrible mistake. This afternoon, its top commander announced that quote, “some civilians have been killed after an airstrike that was intended for Boko Haram militants hit a refugee camp instead.” The Nigerian Red Cross has announced that at least six of its staff members are dead. The aid group Doctors Without Borders, or MSF, had a medical team in the camp. Its members have spoken with Hugue Robert. He's MSF emergency programme manager and we reached him in Geneva earlier today.

HM: Mr. Robert, what are your colleagues telling you about the situation in the Iran refugee camp tonight?

HUGUE ROBERT: Well, I got the team this afternoon and people were under shock. They counted more than 50 casualties this afternoon. And they have been taking care of more than 200 people following the bombing.

HM: Associated Press is actually quoting an anonymous official saying that more than 100 refugees and aid workers may be dead. That doesn't sound like the number that you're hearing?

HR: Well, the number I have and these number are from 4:30 this afternoon, but still at that time there was more people being brought to the center. So it is possible that there is more people at this stage being counted dead. And also out of the 200 people who are taking care now with fairly limited resources. This afternoon we had only two medical staff to attend to this patient. We received the reinforcement of two different teams one by road from MSF and another one from the ICRC delegation by air. So now we have like only 8 medical staff to deal with 200 critically wounded people. So it's highly possible that the number of casualties will increase in the coming hours.

HM: What can you tell us about the attack itself and how it unfolded?

HR: Well, the place is a very small city of displaced people and local inhabitants, so that it's highly dense because the people are fled the surroundings and are all stuck in that small city. So it's like 20,000 people in a very packed area and there's nothing around. So the army is covering the place. And suddenly in the middle of the day there was this an expected aircraft flying over and then these two blasts. So that's what took place and it's extremely unusual to have this kind of situation, especially in a place that is fully controlled by the army. You don't expect you know being bombed but the same army at that location.

HM: Have there been any reports that rebel fighters might be nearby?

HR: Well, during the morning there was some outgoing fire from the army position you know. But the city itself it is very isolated, so it's not that the insurgent can easily approach the location during the day time. Indeed I would say this in the periphery of this area. I mean there is some insurgent activity, but it's quite distant from the city itself.

HM: You said you have only eight medical workers on the scene. What kind of help are you getting from the Nigerian government in getting the wounded evacuated from the area?

HR: Well, the bombing took place at midday in that place in the world at 6 p.m. it's dark nights and with the wards it's hard to get some help during the night. So what is really worrying is that when the six hour window we didn't get any support. So we have heard that they will probably mobilize some sort of resources to make sure we can medevac a number of casualties and I hope it will take place tomorrow, but when we speak about 200 wounded. We need a medical evacuation system to be able to bring them for surgery and proper care.

HM: Has the Nigerian government explained why it has taken so long? Why no help has arrived?

HR: Well, I'm not aware about any explanation from their side. We have been trying to reach them to organize this medical evacuation. But yes so far. I mean you have not seen it as of now. So I hope that tomorrow will be a new days and we'll be able to really bring them to the proper medical facility to make sure we don't lose more people.

HM: This isn't the first time the Nigerian military has been accused of killing civilians while it was hunting for Boko Haram. What do you make of General Lucky Irabor’s statement today in which he acknowledged some civilians had been killed?

HR: Well, I mean it's I don't have the full statement that this person. I mean unfortunately in the past year we have been confronted to a number of serious situation you know. And armies often speak about mistakes and this kind of incident taking place. But in that particular case it's really hard to believe and to understand how it can happen — these kinds of mistakes. What we can only say about the current war is that the conduct of warfare there is having very heavy costs on civilians on both sides of the belligerents.

HM: What are you doing to mobilize tonight. What are your priorities as you try to get help into these wounded people?

HR: Well, the stage when you have such a situation you're obliged to I would say focus the limited help you have for the right people. so you are obliged to make very stable choice in the sense that you know the sense that some people that won't be won't be able to receive your attention and then it's probably too late for you to be able to save them. So I guess the team there is confronted to this very very tough situation and they really have to make some very severe decision that will impact the life of many people. And in that sense I mean it's really really really tough time.

HM: It's a really awful situation. Thank you very much for telling us about it.

HR: Thank you very much. Goodnight.

KG: Hugue Robert is the emergency programme manager for Doctors Without Borders. He was in Geneva.

[Music: Piano]

May Brexit speech

KG: Today, we learned a little more about what Brexit will really mean. In a long-awaited speech, Prime Minister Theresa May made it clear that the UK plans to make a clean break with the European Union what's being referred to as “hard Brexit”. She said the UK hopes to do that while maintaining strong ties with EU countries.

SOUNDCLIP

THERESA MAY: We are leaving the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe. And that is why we seek a new and equal partnership between an independent self-governing global Britain and our friends and allies in the EU. Not partial membership of the European Union, associate membership of the European Union or anything that leaves us half in half out. We do not seek to adopt a model already enjoyed by other countries. We do not seek to hold on to bits of membership as we leave. No, the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union and my job is to get the right deal for Britain as we do.

KG: In her 45 minute long speech, Ms. May laid out a dozen objectives for the UK's exit from the EU and for the first time she announced that Parliament would get to vote on the final Brexit deal. Anne-Marie Trevelyan is a Conservative Party MP who supports Brexit. We reached her in London.

HM: Ms Trevelyan, there's been a lot of speculation since the Brexit vote about what Britain's future would involve. How clear was Theresa May do you think today in laying out the direction she sees Britain heading?

ANNE-MARIE TREVELYAN: Theresa May, our Prime Minister, made a great speech today which set out really clearly what the objectives are for getting us to be an independent nation again. She set out a plan for Britain which will ensure that we take back control of our laws and that we can protect and strengthen the union of our four nations.

HM: Is this the “hard Brexit” that it sounds like you and many of the others in her government have been pressing for?

AMT: Yes I think you know we've got hard stuff. We’ve got red, white and blue. We've got any number of descriptions. What it is, is Brexit which is leaving the European Union. In order to leave the European Union, we need to take back control of our laws to leave ECJ, the European Court of Justice ruling, to be able to stop independent trading networks with countries around the globe. To do that we have to leave the EU and step away from those four key tenants of membership which include free movement of people for instance. So that is what she is setting out to do. We will step away from those four tenets and be independently able to work with the EU as a trading partner as we will be able to do with Canada with the USA with Australia and with every other nation around the world which we cannot do at the moment as one-twenty-eighth of the European Union.

HM: Critics though say that this is not what breads it was supposed to be about at least not what they were told. Tim Farron the leader of the Liberal Democrats told the BBC ripping us out of the single market was not something proposed to the British people. This is a theft of democracy. What do you make of that?

AMT : Well Tim Farron is wrong in that instance. It was very clear both for those of us who were fighting on the leave side as we were very clear that we believe that in order to achieve Brexit we would need to leave the single market. But the Prime Minister David Cameron at the time who was campaigning for the remain side was also very clear that if Brexit was the choice that the British people made then leaving the single market would also be an outcome. So Tim Farron is disingenuous in suggesting that wasn't clear the British people.

HM: The idea of withdrawing from the single market changing the relationship with Europe is partly predicated as you pointed out on Britain controlling its own immigration. How much does that appeal to a xenophobic aspect of Britain and something that we're actually seeing more globally right now?

AMT: I don’t think I would ever describe Great Britain as xenophobic. We are one of the most open nations I think the frustration that has developed as we were within the EU framework of free movement of labor is that EU citizens can come and go as they please. And that's all well and good and they come here and they add to our economic activity and that's all to the good. But the reality is that because we are an island and a very crowded island. We have had to stop migration from other nations across the world. And the imbalance is very very strongly felt. So what we will have is a system of migration which will be very clear and it will be fair. So if you want to come and work here they will be you know reasons for doing so, but not because you happen to be an EU citizen can you come and go freely when as a Canadian or an Australian or South American you cannot. We want a system that is fair and equally balanced for all citizens of the world who want to come and be a part of Great Britain.

HM: The Prime Minister spoke about Britons being unified in addressing the challenges of Brexit but 48 per cent of people voted to remain and of course, we're seeing ongoing criticism from places like Scotland thinking that they have a different vision of their future or at least many of them so how unified do you think people really are?

AMT: Well, it's interesting, so out and about on the doorstep. I mean the Northeast which is the area that I represent was strongly for leaving anyway. But even those who were not are much reassured the world did not implode. There was so many people who voted to remain on a real balance. So they were sort of 45-55 they weren't sure which way they'd go. And on balance with a lot of the scare mongering that came from the remain campaign they went well maybe we’ll just stay. But actually they're seeing six to eight months that the world has not imploded. Our economy is still strong. You know we were able to export in much greater ways. And they are becoming much more positive about seeing the benefits of being back to being an independent Great Britain.

HM: Theresa May's been talking about a fairly short timeline for achieving withdrawal from the EU and also establishing independent trade deals with the countries that Britain thinks would benefit from that and it would benefit from. I'm just wondering how realistic you think that is given that it took Canada seven years to establish a trade deal with the European Union — a single entity —when you're talking about negotiating very complex deals with various nations across Europe?

AMT: Well, we would be negotiating a free trade deal with the E.U. the 27 states in the way that Canada has. Canada has such a great marker for us to work from. But I think reality is that there are many many nations very keen to create free trade areas with the UK. But the reality is that you can trade without a free trade deal under WTO rules and if within the two years once we've triggered Article 50 Great Britain hasn't managed to get all the finer details tied down with you on that free trade deal, we will trade under WTO rules until we can get that finalized.

HM: There are many critics saying that it sounds like the Prime Minister is trying to have her cake and eat it too. There's also talk about the tone she took. I mean she said if the E.U. pursued a punitive deal it would be an act of calamitous self-harm. How effective a negotiating tactic do you think it is to sound threatening?

AMT: I have to say I didn't hear that as a threatening statement. It was simply a statement of fact. The trade is much in their favor and therefore it’s worth their while coming together and seeing the benefits of building a new relationship with the U.K. which has a great trading future. We are very strong nation and those nations want to trade with us. We want to trade with them. It's not complicated and matters of security and those issues. I have no doubt that all parties will be very able to reach a new framework.

HM: Mr. Trevelyan I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you very much.

AMT: Thank you.

KG: Anne-Marie Trevelyan is the Conservative Party MP for Berwick-upon-Tweed who supports Brexit. We reached her in London.

Back To Top »

Part 2: MH370 father, Obama country club

MH370 father

Guest: Malay Mukherjee

KG: After nearly three years, we are no closer to understanding what happened to Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. And now, it's possible the mystery may never be solved. Today investigators in Malaysia, Australia and China announced they would be suspending their search for MH 370, the flight that disappeared from radar on March 8^th, 2014 shortly after leaving Kuala Lumpur towards Beijing. Two Canadians were onboard: Muktesh Mukherjee and his wife, Xiaomo Bai. They were heading home to Beijing, where they lived with their two young sons. Malay Mukherjee in Muktesh’s father, since the crash he's become the guardian for his grandsons, Mirav and Miles. He now lives in Delhi, but we reached him today in Pittsburgh, via Skype.

HM: Mr. Mukherjee, how did you react to the news today that the search for MH 370 has been suspended?

MALAY MUKHERJEE: Disappointing, painful, sadness. It does mean that closure will never take place in the manner in which we would have liked the grandsons to have. What I didn't like was you know stating that it is a suspension when we all are knowing that what's behind it is a closure of the search.

HM: So you don't believe they'll ever resume the search?

MM: You know it takes quite a bit of effort to resume something once it stops. And even with the experience which we've had over these last nearly three years. We do not feel that Malaysian Airlines would take the trouble of reopening and restarting the search.

HM: What have these three years of uncertainty been like for you?

MM: Well as you know, we had two grandsons to look after and that definitely gave us some solace. There were hardly two and seven years old. To that extent we have been kept busy looking after them. But you know when you're alone in the night the feeling never goes away and the closure would have been if we had known what happened to them. If we had known where they were and, of course, if we had recovered even a small bit of the remembrance of what they were carrying with them.

HM: The search as you know was the most expensive and complicated aviation search in history we're told it cost 160 million dollars, searched 120,000 square kilometers and involved three countries. Given all of that, where do you think this investigation failed?

MM: In this world of ours where we can track even if possible going from one country to another at different stages by the hour. That technology did not help even in finding the plane. That is what has been the saddest part of the whole incident.

HM: Investigators have released a statement today it said despite every effort using the best science available, cutting edge technology as well as modeling and advice from highly skilled professionals. The search has not been able to locate the aircraft. Knowing the effort they undertook does that satisfy you at all?

MM: We definitely look at it from the point of view that the experts are involved. But you know we were getting a fortnightly report from Malaysian Airlines stating what is the status of the search and if you read it through over the last two years it's just got a cut and paste way of putting in the report which certainly did not bring us confidence that while you are saying you have searched all this, but was it being done in a professional way?

HM: So how would you describe your relationship with Malaysian Airlines then?

MM: Let me put it this way, it's been now nearly three years. There is not a single personal message which has come from Malaysia Airlines. They must have the whole list of e-mails to whom they send out a report. I would have loved if they had addressed me. If they had you know sent a mail asking how the children are? How can they be so impersonal about such a tragedy?

HM: Late last year as you know a number of experts said that they felt investigators had maybe been searching the wrong area all along. Did you get a sense that that advice was being heeded in any way?

MM: Certainly not, the way I look at, it if you do that much. And if the experts now are coming up that there is an area of about 25,000 square kilometers which needs to be done it means that they could have definitely taken this up.

HM: Some other relatives have refused to accept that family members are dead. They've even come up with some pretty unusual conspiracy theories. Is it hard to see people clutching to that faint hope?

MM: Well, I see that with Xiaomo’s parents.

HM: This is your daughter-in-law?

MM: Yes. It took us quite some time to even get them to sign the paper seeking the death certificates for their daughter and our son.

HM: Do you think they accept it now?

MM: Not really. I wouldn’t say 100 per cent.

HM: You mentioned the raising of your two grandsons and how that has helped you to some degree. How much have you shared with them about what happened to their parents?

MM: The elder one, who is today 10 years old. He knows, he reads, he Googles. I'm sure he must be watching and Googling to find out, of course.

HM: And Miles, the younger one, do you think he has any memory of his parents.

MM: Yes he has memories of his parents, but in a very positive way. He also is aware that there was a plane crash and the parents never came back. And you know we had the advantage that when we moved the children to Delhi they were admitted into the American school in Bombay and the counselor there did a wonderful job in you know bringing them back to reality.

HM: I understand you've also made the effort to make sure that their Chinese grandparents play a role in their lives as well.

MM: Oh yes. We have been on vacations together. The difficulty is that they speak only Chinese. It's only Muktesh and the elder grandson who has kept up with his Chinese and he's the one who acts as an interpreter. He's the one who has every Sunday the call with his maternal grandparents.

HM: Do you think you might ever know what happened to your son and daughter-in-law?

MM: Well, that's what we pray for, that we knew. That's more for the grandchildren because they keep on asking what really happened?And you know the question which is the most difficult to answer. Which the elder grandson puts to us: Did they suffer? That's a very difficult question to answer.

HM: What do you say?

MM: You say no, God was with them So God must have looked after them well.

HM: Mr. Mukherjee, thank you so much for speaking with us today and I know it's been three years, but I just like to say you have our condolences.

MM: Thank you, Helen. Good talking to you.

HM: OK bye bye.

MM: Bye.

KG: Malay Mukherjee is Muktesh’s father, since the crash has become the guardian for his grandsons Mirav and Miles. He now lives in Delhi. His son Muktesh Mukherjee was a passenger on Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. We reached Mr. Mukherjee in Pittsburgh, via Skype and we've posted this story to our website www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: International]

Newfoundland fires

KG: This morning, in a small community on Newfoundland’s south coast three major fires were burning at the same time. Arson charges have been laid against a man in connection with the fires at a school, the town hall and the RCMP detachment in Milltown-Head of Bay d’Espoir. Earlier today, Leanne Studley spoke with Ramona Deering, host of the CBC Newfoundland and Labrador program Cross Talk.

SOUNDCLIP

RAMONA DEERING: We have Leanne Studley on the line right now. Her house is very close to Bay d’Espoir Academy. I feel terrible talking to you right now, I can't imagine what your day has been like so far?

LEANNE STUDLEY: The days gone horrible.

RD: So when did you find out about the fire?

LS: About 4:20 a.m. this morning. My husband is with the volunteer fire department and his pager rang him.

RD: And so what happened after that?

LS: They went out. The call was for a fire at Bay d’Espoir Academy and they left. And when they arrived at the fire hall they realized that the fire all was also on fire and they called for the St Albans fire department to assist with fighting these two fires.

RD: I can't imagine what that was like for them to be responding to one fire and then finding out there's another one. And it's actually the firehall?

LS: Yes. And then finding there was a third.

RD: Yes, the RCMP detachment Yes. So Leanne, what did the fire at Bay d’Espoir Academy look like?

LS: Devastating, two structures are completely gone and the older structure of the high school is still standing, but I would assume that it's very damaged.

RD: Yeah, I've heard some people expressing hope that possibly it could be salvaged but at the same time you've got to be wondering about smoke and water damage?

LS: When I drove by this morning it was full of smoke.

RD: So tell me what people have been saying to you this morning and what you've been saying to them?

LS: I think people are just in shock here this morning. People are wondering why us? But Yeah, everyone's just in shock ever. The towns are trying to come together to help everyone and. The people at the Lions Club are all gathering and I think people just want to be together.

RD: There is a suspect in custody. There's a lot of talk that this was possibly arson. What's that like to think about that possibility?

LS: Yeah, that's kind of scary, but we're just listening to that through the news now and I'm sure more details will come on that later.

RD: Is there anything that our listeners from other parts of Newfouldland and Labrador can do, do you think?

LS: I'm sure right now there's not a lot that anyone can do and I'm sure the English school board will start to work on this right away and then we'll see what we can do to get our students back to finish off the school year.

KG: That's Leanne Studley of Milltown-head of Bay d’Espoir, speaking earlier today with Ramona Deering, host of the CBC Newfoundland and Labrador program Cross Talk. Three fires raged simultaneously this morning in the community on Newfoundland's south coast. Donald Craig MacHaight is facing three charges of intentional cause of damage by fire.

[Music: ambient]

Obama country club

Guest: Jeffery Slavin

KG: There's always politics inside a country club. But in this case it's actual political politics. It's been reported that when President Obama leaves the Oval Office, he'll join the Woodmont Country Club, a predominantly Jewish club in the Washington suburbs. But some members don't want to let Mr. Obama become a member due to his policies on Israel. The infighting led lifelong member and Democratic activist Jeffrey Slavin to quit yesterday. Mr. Slavin is the mayor of Somerset, a suburb near DC. We reached him there.

HM: Mayor Slavin, what prompted you to and your membership with Woodmont Country Club?

JEFFERY SLAVIN: You know I was concerned after that news story broke about the possibility that President Obama was being blackballed from membership by our Country Club, a club that I am that I grew up in. And I did not know to be that kind of unwelcoming place. And I was concerned that there was a stain on its reputation internationally. I had heard that there was you know it was in the Israeli press. It was in London and other places and I was really concerned that the leadership of the club didn't respond. And so I decided to really give it a kind of a wakeup call that I would make the bold move to resign.

HM: And do it very publicly?

JS: And do it publicly, right. And since then my motivation has been questioned, but my only motivation is for justice and for the truth.

HM: Now yesterday was Martin Luther King Jr. Day, I understand that that played some role in your thinking. Can you tell us how that influenced the choice you made?

JS: Well, on Friday night I was at Washington Hebrew which is one of the major religious institutions in the country. And I was at our annual Martin Luther King Shabbat service and the guest speaker was the Reverend Dr. Barber, who is from North Carolina who I would view him as sort of like the Martin Luther king of our generation. And I was sitting there thinking here I have all these values. I’m a public official; I need to live my values. I need to speak up and then a friend of mine sent this fantastic quote from Dr. King that said, “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort. But where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” And so I decided I had to I had to do something about it.

HM: You mentioned the possibility that President Obama would be blackballed from membership at Woodmont. But as I understand it he hasn't asked to join. Correct?

JS: You know I'm not in the inside and I don't know all the facts, but I do know that the story that was out there was that he was being basically blackballed. But once that gets out there it has to be responded to. So I decided to make a bold move that would hopefully get everybody to start investigating it.

HM: All right, let's talk about the basis of this opposition. I mean how many club members do you think there are who would oppose him becoming a member and what are their reasons?

JS: I think that first of all, the admission to the club it's not a political organization in any way. They don't have political events. There is nothing in the admissions criteria regarding your political beliefs or affiliations. It's all about what kind of citizen are you? How philanthropic are you? how much you give back? Apparently there were some people that have a problem with President Obama and his position at that U.N. vote. And I respect all views you know. But that has nothing to do with admission to the club.

HM: Let's just clarify this. This is based on the Obama administration decision not to veto the U.N. Security Council resolution because that was critical of Israeli settlements.

JS: I believe that that was what people there were some people that were concerned about. But to me being opposed to a certain policy in Israel doesn't mean you're anti-Israel. For God's sakes, being opposed to something Israel is doing. Does it mean you're anti-Semitic. I think it's ridiculous.

HM: Do you think there are differences of opinion among club members about Israel's policies already?

JS: Yes I'm sure there are. Ironically since all this happened I've heard from a number of people, members who are Republican and or don't like President Obama and or don't like what happened at the U.N. And they are appalled that he is not being welcomed with open arms. I want the world to know that. I don't want to see one of the most important institutions that is closely tied with the Jewish community in the nation’s capital. To have that kind of stain on its reputation.

HM: Woodmont was founded by Jews who are excluded from gentile clubs some years ago, many years ago…

JS: Over a hundred years. Right.

HM: What about the composition its membership there. Do you do have to be Jewish to join? It doesn't sound like it?

JS: No I would say that it's still primarily Jewish, but it's not a requirement. So it's not 100 per cent Jewish club. There's nothing that requires you to be Jewish, obviously because they don't discriminate against anybody.

HM: Is there a lot of diversity in the club? Is there any reason that race would be a factor?

JS: You know I would say that when I go to the club it's a lot I would think a lot of Jewish people, but I don't I don't think that's even an issue. But you know race is a factor in everything in the world unfortunately. So some people have said that there were racial overtones. I hope not, but there are racial overtones in everything. And I think denying it is a problem, but that applies to everything not just Woodmont Country Club.

HM: You mentioned the comments by the club's president Barry Forman who was speaking in a publication called Washington Jewish Week in which he questioned your motivation in stepping forward and quitting in this way. What is he saying do you think?

JS: I was very flabbergasted by that because Barry's a wonderful person. And when he said that it has to do with politics, I don't know what he's talking about. I'm not running for higher office. You know I was ready for criticism like this. That's fine. I want the club to formally address this perception problem in the court of public opinion. And they had every opportunity to do that. I'm sorry that they didn’t.

HM: You say you've been a member for your whole life. Is that right?

JS: That's right.

HM: How hard is that to leave a club you've been a member of for 61 years?

JS: Well, it's very very sad. I have so many memories there. Learning how to swim, play tennis, lot of life cycle events. But you know if that's what it takes to save the club's reputation then you know I'm going to do it.

HM: Jeffrey Slavin, thank you for speaking with us.

JS: Helen, wonderful to talk to you.

KG: We reached mayor Jeffrey Slaven in Somerset, Maryland. He publicly ended his membership at the predominantly Jewish Woodmont Country Club after an internal controversy over whether President Obama should be allowed to join.

[Music: Ambient]

Not Ivanka

KG: She awoke famous, and confused. Last night, a sleeping British woman became the talk of the Internet when U.S. President-elect Donald Trump tagged Ivanka Magic in a tweet that was meant for his daughter, Ivanka Trump. This morning, the former spoke to the BBC about not being the latter.

SOUNDCLIP

IVANKA MAGIC: I found many mentions and I found a message from somebody I used to work with from Australia going have you seen this Guardian article? And then I asked him to send me the original tweet because I confess it was buried in a sea of mentions.

HOST: How many are we talking about? Any idea?

IM: I don't actually know. I spoke to somebody else and she reckons it about 4,000. All it does is go plus 20 to me on the Twitter app.

HOST: Yeah. How long are you going to have to scroll back on your little phone? I did see but this is from you know we're talking about eight or nine hours ago it was favorited more than 15,000 times.

IM: 15,000?

Host: But that's hours ago.

IM: And how’s my response gone?

HOST: Well, I am going to check that out right after because let me talk about your response. You have @realdonaldtrump a Twitter handle that we've all become familiar with. You say you're a man with great responsibilities. May I suggest care more on Twitter and more time learning about hashtag climate change. Have you got a response to that?

IM: Not that I can tell. And I don't know if I'll get a response. But I thought if life gives one these opportunities they might as well try and flip the conversation to something more pertinent to all of us.

HOST: You're not concerned for example that Trump supporters might I don't know. Try and speak to you through Twitter particularly if they vehemently disagree with your opinion on climate change for example?

IM: Well, I did think about which issue I should put on Twitter and I selected climate change because in theory one should be able to have a fact-based conversation about it.

KG: That was Ivanka Magic a digital consultant speaking to the BBC after President-elect Donald Trump tagged her in a tweet instead of his daughter Ivanka Trump. So far the President-elect has issued no correction.

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Part 3: Syrian Facebook lawsuit, baby acupuncture, San Diego mover

Syrian Facebook lawsuit

Guest: Chan-Jo Jun

KG: Anas Modamani was just a teenager when he snapped a quick selfie with the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel. And over and over again that one captured moment is come back to haunt the young Syrian refugee. The image has been shared on Facebook repeatedly in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe, in posts falsely calling him the perpetrator. Now he's fed up. He's suing Facebook, seeking an injunction against the use of his image on the site. Chan-jo Jun is Mr. Modamani’s lawyer. We reached him in Wurzburg, Germany.

HM: Mr. Jun, let's start with this photograph of your client with the German Chancellor, how did that come to be in the first place?

CHAN-JO JUN: It was the year 2015 and Anas Modamani just arrived to Germany. He was at a refugee shelter in Berlin and some important person showed up and at that time and that did not know was Chancellor Angela Merkel and he just walked up and took a selfie picture with her and he did not realize he just took the first selfie with the German Chancellor.

HM: Now what was the reception to the photograph at the time?

CJ: Very very different at that time. A lot of people were applauding Angela Merkel for her politics for giving humanity a chance and letting people in. Even though they should have gone through the procedures in Greece. But at the same time a growing number of people were strongly opposed to Merkel's politics. So what happened then is that people use this picture as a symbol for Merkel’s Refugee politics when they hated it.

HM: How else has the photograph been used since?

CJ: Well, whenever something happens for related to terrorism or refugees people come up with the picture. And a number of times people were saying Merkel took a picture with a terrorist or with a perpetrator, especially with the Brussels attacks last year — the attack at the airport. People were raising questions. Did Merkel take a picture with a terrorist and a lot of people thought she did.

HM: Why do you think this particular image keeps being used this way?

CJ: I think a lot of people felt offended by the fact that Merkel got so close to someone people would believe should be of the lowest possible class and that a Chancellor should not be so closely to a refugee. And so they were angered by the picture I think.

HM: What effect is all of this attention had on an Anas Modamani?

CJ: Well, when he was first linked to the bomb attack in Brussels. He thought things would blow over. Friends told him he deactivated his Facebook account at that time and he was afraid of going out on the street. However, what happened last year in December just a couple of weeks ago is that another picture showed up with the group of refugees setting fire on a homeless person as an attempted murder and people claim that he was one of the perpetrators saying again Merkel took a picture with one of the perpetrators of that attempted murder.

HM: Is it true he was also implicated by some of these people in the Berlin incident with the truck?

CJ: Actually they implicate him with everything. Whenever crime happened in Germany this picture showed up all the time as the same happened in Würzburg there were some of the attacks here and whenever something happened people would show up the picture sometimes linking him directly or just associating him with Merkel's politics. Blaming Merkel for letting terrorists into the country.

HM: And does Mr. Modamani resemble in any way the Brussels bomber or any of these other alleged terrorists?

CJ: I mean if you look closely you pretty quickly realize that it is not the same person. But if you want to believe then you will see a resemblance.

HM: So on what grounds are you taking legal action against Facebook?

CJ: Well, libel is a criminal offense in Germany and also in a civil court when someone claims you are committing a crime which you didn't are a terrorist spreading this news is illegal. And Facebook refused to take down the posting and the picture. It is actually still online today as we speak.

HM: Is it still refusing?

CJ: I have been reporting many instances of this picture and they have taken down some. And they claimed with the British press they have fulfilled my takedown request and are taking it down. But they haven't. I still saw the picture yesterday even though I had reported that very picture. However the problem is community standards of Facebook do not provide fake news to be taken down. They are not violation for community standards. So when regular content moderators take a look at the picture. They will not take it down because Facebook does not want to take down fake news.

HM: Given the number of people who use Facebook how viral this image has gone. Is it even possible do you think for them to successfully control how much it spreads? I'm just wondering the resources involved in trying to limit the use of a photograph like this?

CJ: Actually it's pretty easy with a photograph because the same image has been used many times and has been uploaded many times. Facebook has done the same thing when the Paris attack happened. There was one photograph that was tried to be uploaded more than 30,000 times. And they were using a picture recognition software to prevent that picture from being spread.

HM: Can you not go after the people who are making these memes, making these allegations rather than the target the platform itself?

CJ: I did, actually I filed this application against Facebook and against one person who uploaded the picture. However the original authors are probably completely unknown and it was an anonymous page. Facebook does not help prosecutors in finding out who uploaded the original picture.

HM: How hopeful are you that your suit will go anywhere and that Mr. Modamani can get his life back?

CJ: I am very positive about it because German politicians have realized just recently that they have to treat Facebook differently they cannot rely on Facebook to voluntarily change their policies. So it is very likely that in this year 2017 we are going to have some new laws to motivate Facebook maybe with sanctions to comply with German or European laws.

HM: How is Mr. Modamani doing now? I mean how has he settled in Germany?

CJ: Well, currently he's afraid. He stayed away from home for a couple of days and went into hiding. He has settled very well. I mean he speaks fluent German. He works every day at a fast food joint in Berlin and he has his hobby he likes photography, he keeps in touch with his family in Syria and he hopes to be able to stay in Germany for at least as long as that war is going on.

HM: Mr. Jun, thank you very much for telling us about the situation. We appreciate it.

CJ: Thank you.

KG: Chan-Jo Jun is a lawyer in Wurzberg, Germany. He represents Anas Modamani, a Syrian refugee who is suing Facebook over the repeated misuse of his likeness on that site. To see the selfie and read more about his story you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Trump Defamation

KG: Before the Access Hollywood video was leaked, Summer Zervos said she felt alone. But then, it was out there: Donald Trump gleefully describing grabbing women by their genitalia without asking. That's when the former Apprentice spoke out. Ms. Zervos alleged that during a job interview the now President-elect thrust his genitals at her, groped her, kissed her and tried to have sex with her. He denied the allegations calling her a liar. No criminal charges were ever filed. Today Ms. Zervos announced she is suing Donald Trump for defamation. Here is her lawyer Gloria Allred reading from the lawsuit at a press conference this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

GLORIA ALLRED: She came forward as a number of other Trump victims did, to make clear that Donald Trump had kissed and groped her without her consent repeatedly. End quote. The lawsuit goes on to allege quote. “And what did Donald Trump, the liar and misogynist, do to cover up his lies? He lied again saying that he quote never met Ms. Zervos at a hotel or greeted her inappropriately.” End quote. He quickly went further describing Ms. Zervos’s experience along with those of others as quote, “made up events that never happened.” End quote. Quote, “100 per cent fabricated and made up charges.” End quote. Quote, “totally false.” End quote. He falsely stated quote, “every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign. Total fabrication. The events never happened.” End quote. During the last presidential debate he stated that these women were either being put forward by the Clinton campaign or were motivated to come forward by getting quote, “10 minutes of fame and nothing more.” Ms. Zervos alleges in her lawsuit quote, “but it was Donald Trump who was lying when he falsely denied his predatory misconduct with Summer Zervos.”

KG: That was a prominent feminist lawyer Gloria Allred at a press conference earlier today. Summer Zervos herself spoke briefly. Here's what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

SUMMER ZERVOS: Today I filed a lawsuit against Donald Trump for defamation. On November 11, 2016, I called on Mr.Trump to retract a statement about me calling me a liar. I also called upon him to state that what I said about his behavior was true. More than two months have gone by and he has not issued that retraction. I wanted to give Mr. Trump the opportunity to retract his false statements about me and the other women who came forward. Since Mr. Trump has not issued a retraction as I requested. He has therefore left me with no alternative other than to sue him in order to vindicate my reputation. I want Mr. Trump to knowtThat I will still be willing to dismiss my case against him immediately for no monetary compensation. If he would simply retract his false and defamatory statements about me and acknowledge that I told the truth about him.

KG: That was former Apprentice contestant Summer Zervos earlier today, announcing she is suing President-Elect Donald Trump for defamation.

[Music: Ambient]

Baby acupuncture;

Guest: Kajsa Landgren

KG: Seems like a counter-intuitive strategy to stop a baby from crying. But researchers in Sweden say it works although it's probably best you don't try it yourself at 4 a.m. in the morning. Scientists tried using acupuncture on colic-y babies. Then they compared it to more conventional techniques to calm a baby. Their study is published in a British medical journal publication. “Acupuncture in Medicine” we reached its author. Kajsa Landgren in Lund, Sweden.

HM: Ms Landgren, how many babies were given acupuncture treatments in this study?

KAJSA LANDGREN: 147.

HM: And how did the treatments work? How were they given?

KL: It's a very brief intervention. Those babies who were asleep in their car seat when they were carried into the treatment room, they rarely woke up. The needle prick is only a few seconds and it's about three millimeters deep — it's a very thin needle. And in most treatment of patients the baby didn't cry.

HM: So did the acupuncture treatments have any effect in terms of reducing the colic-y nature of these babies?

KL: It had, crying was reduced in all three groups. There was a third group who did not get any acupuncture, but the same amount of attention and the same support to the parents. And parents were blinded. So they didn't know whether their infant got acupuncture or not. They met the acupuncturist twice a week for two weeks. And during the second intervention week the crying was significantly lower in the acupuncture groups compared to baseline.

HM: And you attribute this to the acupuncture is that right?

KL: There was a control group who got exactly the same attention and advice from a blinded nurse the only difference between these groups were acupuncture or no acupuncture.

HM: So are you surprised that the treatments had any effect given how short the treatments themselves were?

KL: I think it's impressive that a small intervention like that could make a difference that is clinically relevant. I'm not that surprised because we conducted a similar study some years ago with a similar result.

HM: Now some doctors are cautioning that you can't really draw conclusions because your sample was so small — it was a pretty small number of babies. How do you respond to that criticism?

KL: 147 infants is not that little. But, of course, that evidence is stronger the bigger a study is.

HM: Right, now one doctor in the UK questioned the results because he says that colic-y babies respond to even minimal attention. I mean as soon as you're fussing over them the symptoms of the colic will dissipate. So he's saying that the outcome may not be related to acupuncture. Your response to that?

KL: That all groups scored exactly the same attention and the same advice, so the only difference between the control group and the acupuncture groups where the acupuncture. And the crying reduced significantly faster. So I think it's possible that it was acupuncture that reduced the crying.

HM: So do you think people right now with colic-y babies should be taking them to get acupuncture?

KL: Yeah. Many parents do, it's a very popular treatment. My first advice is to register the infant’s crying because crying is often overestimated by tired and worried and desperate parents. So the first thing is to measure the crying in a diary to get a more objective view of how much this baby actually is crying.

HM: Can you understand that maybe some parents think it's counter-intuitive if they have a crying baby that they should take it somewhere where it's going to be pricked with a needle?

KL: You know I could understand that. Some parents don't want to give their infants medications. Some don't want to give them acupuncture. But desperate parents they are often willing, they're seeking complementary and alternative medicine. It's not that new, acupuncture has been used for infant colic for many years in many countries. When we tailored the acupuncture protocol for group b to prepare the manual, I interviewed acupuncturists in nine countries. I think it was more than 20 pediatric acupuncturists who had treated thousands of infants with colic. They gave their view on which treatment was the best for infant colic. So I understood that this is not new. This is used in many countries and that's a good reason to evaluate it. That's why we should do research to find out if it is effective or not. Because you should not do invasive treatments or any treatment if it don't work.

HM: Ms Landgren, I expect there are many tired and desperate parents listening with great interest. Thank you for telling us about your research.

KL: Thank you.

HM: All right. Bye bye.

KG: Kajsa Landgren is a lecturer at Lund University. We reached her in Lund, Sweden. And if you want to hear the story again or pass it on to the parent of a colic-y child, we've posted to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Winnipeg tip

KG: We all know the clichés: Canadians are so polite. We love hockey and beer and maple syrup. we say “aboot”. True or not those stereotypes are all pretty benign, but there is a dark aspect to our reputation when it comes to tipping. We don't give 110 per cent or even just 10 per cent. But last Saturday at a busy Winnipeg restaurant Lisa Holgate defied the Canadian stereotype. She noticed her waitress was looking particularly busy. So at the end of the meal she left a tip that dwarfed the bill itself: a gratuity of a thousand bucks. Here's her waitress Jennifer Peitsch speaking with CBC Manitoba's Ismaila Alfa.

SOUNDCLIP

JENNIFER PEITCH: I saw the receipt come out of the little machine and it said a lot more than their bill was. But she kind of reassured me that she actually meant to put that amount in. It is $1000.

ISMAILA ALFA: Woah! $1000 on an $87 bill. And when you realized it wasn't a mistake. I mean what you did.

JP: At first, I was really shocked. I just stood there with my mouth open. And then when it finally sank in I burst into tears. Honestly, I cannot honestly believe that a stranger would do that.

IA: Now Lisa Holgate was the person who gave you this tip on the $87 bill. We've got Lisa on the line right now. Hello Lisa?

LISA HOLGATE: Hi.

IA: So what went through your mind as you were watching Jennifer work that night?

LH: I deal with people all the time and I can see when they're under stress or anything else like that — I notice.

IA: Have you ever had you ever served tables?

LH: I have actually; I worked at a bar before. I served tables and will say it is hard work. I understand fully.

IA: So you’d understand the stress involved in that. well you got you both on the line, Jennifer, you're there too?

JP: Yes I am.

IA: Why was it so important for you to find Lisa?

JP: It was so important because as soon as I found out the title I started crying. I was very hysterical. Yes I gave Lisa a bunch of hugs, I thank her. I honestly didn't feel like I thanked her enough. Like I didn't tell her anything about myself, I didn't tell her how much I appreciated it and I felt like I needed to call her because I didn't want her to just tip someone and think that maybe they're going to go waste their money. Because like I immediately as I got that tip I knew exactly what I was putting it towards.

IA: Tell Lisa, what difference will this make in your life?

JP: I graduated from high school two years ago. I haven't been able to go to secondary school yet — to university or college. It's always been in the back of my mind, but that credit card has always been nipping at me and now that I have that taken care of I can finally put money aside and finally get my future going.

IA: Lisa how does that make you feel to know that you've made this kind of a difference in Jennifer’s life?

JH: Oh, I'm just ecstatic. I'm so happy that I could do such a good thing for somebody like that. I'm always helping people that's what I love to do. I love helping people.

IA: I love hearing about this. I got goosebumps right now. Thanks to both of you for sharing the story with me. And I’m glad we could get you both online. Thanks so much. You two take care.

LH: Thanks.

JP: You too.

IA: Bye bye.

KG: Jennifer Peitsch is a Winnipeg waitress who received a $1000 dollar tip on the weekend. Lisa Holgate is the customer who surprised her with it. They were both speaking with CBC Manitoba's Ismaila Alfa.

[Music: Industrial]

San Diego mover

Guest: Ryan Charles

KG: To fans of the beloved San Diego Chargers football team, it is a heartbreaking betrayal. After 52 seasons, the team will soon be relocating up the road to Los Angeles in order to make that move. The team will need — well mover's — they could try “Hire a “Helper or “Rhino Mover's” or even “Gotta Get Going Mover's”, but I can tell you right now the team won't have any luck hiring those companies or dozens of other movers in the San Diego area because the companies have banded together to refuse to move the Chargers anywhere. It's the brainchild of Hire a Helper vice president Ryan Charles. We reached him in Oceanside, California.

HM: Ryan Charles, if the San Diego Chargers called you up at “Hire a Helper” right now and asked you to help move the team. What words would you choose?

RYAN CHARLES: I'd have to respectfully decline. Just we believe it's in your best interests to stay in San Diego and we don't want to help move you out of it.

HM: Even if they said pretty please?

RC: Even if they said pretty please with a cherry on top.

HM: Yeah, so why are you doing this?

RC: Well, many of us here at Hire a Helper” have been lifelong Chargers fans. We are born and raised in San Diego, so we've never known San Diego without the Chargers. And it was a long ordeal you know leading up to that decision of back and forth. That was frustrating and then to have it and like this it's just so shocking and sad and makes you angry. Since we're a moving company when we started thinking about the physical move once we got past the figurative part of it. And just thought you know we wouldn't want to be a part of that, we wouldn’t want to be a part of moving them out of our city. And then we were wondering if other San Diego moving companies would feel the same way. And I was thinking what if all of them turned down the Chargers? What would happen? That's how this was born.

HM: Has everybody signed on in your industry?

RC: Not everybody. We still got quite a few to go, but we're still actively calling companies in San Diego and Los Angeles.

HM: How many companies do you have left to contact?

RC: I'm not sure exactly. I'd say we're probably only a quarter of the way through companies in San Diego and in L.A. I'm not exactly sure.

HM: What kind of response this is getting from other fans in and around San Diego? The response has been overwhelmingly positive. It's just been amazing. We've had over 50,000 shares. I've seen a lot of the comments. You know “way to go”. “Thanks for doing this.” We had actually people call our office and thank us for doing this. And I think it's really resonating with people because they love the team and right now they're feeling really powerless and this gives them one last question of hope.

HM: How would you describe the degree of your own fandom How much do you love the team?

RC: Well, as much as a lifelong fan can. I don't know if a lifetime of fandom.

HM: Now at least one fan lobbed eggs at the team's headquarters I understand it's. some have been burning memorabilia. Why is everyone so passionate about the Chargers?

RC: Yeah I mean like I said, it's just something that is synonymous with San Diego. You know the Chargers are San Diego and San Diego are the Chargers. So I feel like those kind of reactions are just immediate guttural kind of reaction to you know that you sort of regret later. and you're like I I'm angry I'm not really shunning you I'm sad that I'm showing it. But in the end we still love the San Diego Chargers, even if you're not going to follow the L.A. Chargers.

HM: So the team as I understand it decided to move after a pretty bitter fight to try and get a new stadium built that involved a tax to help build it and voters there rejected that tax. So do you think maybe locals have to bear some blame for this?

RC: You know I think that possibly that attack could have been expanded to the entire county since it's more of a San Diego County team versus just being localized to actual San Diego city citizens. And I think that was more of the reason why they rejected it. They didn't want to have to bear the cost by themselves. You know when their neighbors who are five feet over the line in another city wouldn't have to.

HM: Well you're outside of San Diego proper I guess you're in the county. Would you've been willing to pay more tax to keep the team?

RC: I believe I would have, although I believe the tax structure is going to be a hospitality tax on hotels, but I don't actually know the specifics of it that well so I can't say.

HM: So in the end someone else is going to end up moving this team right? It's a nice effort you're making, but it's not going to stop them?

RC: You know it's probable that another company will move them. You know we're going to try hard to get 100 per cent buy in. But if this just acts of something symbolic you know in the end I think it still isn't worth it.

HM: I guess a Los Angeles moving company could quite easily just drive down the highway, pick them up and bring it back?

RC: They could, but we actually thought of that. So we're calling Los Angeles companies too and if you look at the site we have Los Angeles movers who have agreed to not move the Chargers into this city.

HM: They don't want the Chargers?

RC: You know when we first heard the news and we started hearing sentiment coming out of L.A. that was less than positive. Immediately we thought hey, maybe there's some Los Angeles moving companies that don't want them in their city and wouldn't want to bring them there. And sure enough that was the case.

HM: So does that hurt? You love them so much and some of them don't even want them?

RC: No, I mean they've got their own team. L.A. is dominated you know by a lot of Raiders fans, Rams, you know there's a lot of other teams that come through there and it's a city of transplants. So you know there's a lot of other teams ahead of the Chargers there I believe. And as far as fandom goes.

HM: Well look good luck. Good luck finding a new team to root for.

RC: right? Yeah I know. I don't know what to do.

HM: Well, thanks for talking to us.

RC: Yeah thank you. I really appreciate it.

HM: OK. Bye.

RC: Bye bye.

KG: Ryan Charles is vice president at the moving company “Hire a Helper”. We reached him in Oceanside, California.

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Jan. 17, 2017 episode transcript

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