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The AIH Transcript for December 1, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

DAVE SEGLINS: Hello I'm Dave Seglins, sitting in for Carol off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

DS: Smokey but safe. It began with one ember and then he was driving for his life. Michael Luciano says he had to rely on memory to keep on the road after fire engulfed his Tennessee town.

JD: Spoiling for choice. The liberals say a committee was too quick to call for a referendum on the way we vote. But a Conservative member says the MP have done their job. Now it's the government's turn.

DS: Doffing her cap. We ask Alberta Premier Rachel Notley how she plans to sell the Trans Mountain pipeline to her neighbors in B.C. And what all that oil will mean for her government's emissions cap.

JD: Lodging charges, when a Windsor man walked into a bank. He called it a robbery but his lawyer tells us that he was really just trying to find somewhere to live even if that's back behind bars.

DS: Castor foiled, a Maryland beaver breaks into a dollar store to chomp down some Christmas trees only to find that the evergreens are all fake. The arrest was real though.

JD: And chim chimney chim chimney chim chim oh! That's the route, someone gave the National Library of Scotland a filthy rag from inside a chimney. But after some serious sweeping researchers realized they had rescued a 17th century map. As It Happens the Thursday edition, radio that always tries to put its best soot forward.

[Music Theme]

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Part 1: Tennessee fire, electoral reform, 17^th-century map

Tennessee fire

Guest: Michael Luciano

JEFF DOUGLAS: The mountain town of Gatlinburg, Tennessee is in recovery mode today. And while the fires are mostly out, the air is still thick with smoke. A small fire started on Monday in the Great Smoky Mountains that surround the tourist town. But as the sun went down the wind picked up and the flames which had looked so distant quickly grew into an unstoppable wildfire by nightfall. Ten people have been found dead in the region. Dozens more are still missing. At least 700 structures in Gatlinburg, a town of 4000 people, have been destroyed. Michael Luciano lives in Chalet Village; it was the hardest hit neighborhood. We reached him in Gatlinburg.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mr. Luciano, what does your town look like today?

Michael Luciano: Well, the town below they’ve got it closed off. And I haven't been able to see most of it after the after it's been burned. These fires came very unexpectedly and unfortunately where I live and own a home business 2500 feet in elevation. Unfortunately they were unable to bring any assistance to these fires that happened. We had no idea the mountain was on fire.

DS: So what happened?

ML: Well, we had returned home from work. We had about an hour until it got dark and it was very smoky as usual. As it's been for the past week, we had a huge windstorm coming in and the wind was just blowing and blowing and just got worse as it started to get twilight outside and I noticed an ember. We had a lot of ash coming down all week, but none of it was hot. I noticed that ember and it gave me great concern with all that wind. The wind was 60 mile an hour plus, you could hear the power lines creaking and snapping and the power flicker on. But when I saw that hot ember something told me we'd better go check it out.

DS: So that wind was pushing the fire right toward you?

ML: Well, we don't know how these fires spread the way they do. The fires were supposed to be miles away. They had told us there were many miles away in the National Park and we are close to the National Park in Chalet Village. We went on the ATVS me and my brother, we drove 300 yards or so up the road and you know it's smoky you can't see anything. It's dark out. And when we got up the road about 200 to 300 yards both sides of the roads were on fire.

DS: Now as you said you're high up on the mountain. So what do you do next? How do you escape?

ML: Well, we have a large Dodge Ram pickup truck with four wheel drive. We're running as fast as we can in that truck at one point you know fire on both sides propane tanks every cabin every single cabin was on fire. This was the worst fire I had ever seen. It was worse than some of the movies I’ve seen. It reminded me and all of my Facebook followers they say it reminds them of Dante’s Inferno. It was like someone dumped fuel everywhere. As we continued to go down the mountain things just got worse. At one point downed utility pole blocked us and we couldn't we couldn't go through that. We had to turn around and go to an alternate route and start to head down Wiley Oakley Road, which most of what I understand is where the deaths occurred.

DS: As you're driving out did you see anyone else struggling to get out?

ML: Yes, as we got to the bottom there was a car and it was completely stopped in the middle of the road. Fire on both sides, you can't see very well when you're driving. And this car was stopped. I got extremely mad. I was cursing I had to get out of the vehicle and bang on this window of this vehicle and he rolled down the window and I'm saying why are you sitting here? And he said I can't see. And I said why don't you just pull over and let us go around and follow our tail lights. So he pulled over I jumped back in the truck. This was the most terrifying experience I have ever been through in my entire life. And I asked I got out at the bottom. They had no ambulances — nothing. They just had the Park Service just standing there watching the mountain burn. And I got out of the truck and I walked up and I said why are you just letting this burn? Why didn't we get any warning? No warning at all. You know the smoke has been here for weeks. And the man looked at me and he said the fire departments are busy putting out other fires. As far as the warning I don't know why they didn't announce it on the news?

DS: You've now had a chance to look at some of the damage and I know that Chalet Village — your community — is largely rental cabins and most of them were destroyed. How is your home?

ML: My home. It took me all day yesterday to find out. I know an emergency worker personally who was working up there. I had him check my home for me and my home was still standing as of yesterday. Now there are still some small hot spots and areas there, but we did get a lot of rain which was good which really helped in the cleanup of a building those fires out. The death toll just keeps rising every day. It's just a terrible situation.

DS: Well today fire officials said that they fear that this rescue effort is going to now evolve into a recovery effort. What are they telling you?

ML: That is exactly what it is now. It's a recovery effort. The people that were missing that are not in shelters and I know a lot of these people because I'm in the community. I own a hot tub company called Aqua Flow Spas & Repair. I know these homeowners, these cabin owners. I know the people that live there. The old reverend, I used to talk to him. He used to walk his poodle; he's missing. The man who begged me to take him back up to find his wife and his two daughters — one of them that just had a birthday three days before — these people are not in the shelters. They're still missing. So yes I believe that it is a recovery effort.

DS: Do you think Gatlinburg can recover from this?

ML: Gatlinburg is a strong community. We have still a lot of nice places to go to. The trees are going to come back. They're going to bloom 10 times bigger. I don't know if any arson had to play in this or not. From what I saw I don't believe so. An hour and a half before that happened all the cabins were fine because I drove Wily up, the same road we escaped on, the same way that's the way we came home. And every cabin was standing. Nothing was wrong until that wind started really really blowing. And that is what did it.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mr. Luciano, our hearts go out to you and not just for what you've been through, but what's going to be a hard time ahead no doubt. Thank you for speaking with us.

MICHEAL LUCIANO: It was a pleasure speaking with you and God bless everyone that this tragic event has affected.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Michael Luciano lives in Gatlinburg, Tennessee a tourist town badly hit by wildfires that started Monday. We reached Mr. Luciano in Gatlinburg.

[Music: Piano and strings]

Electoral reform

Guest: Scott Reid

JEFF DOUGLAS: If Canadians are going to change the way they vote, they should vote on it in a referendum. That is the recommendation delivered today by Parliament's Special Committee on Electoral Reform. The proposal is to pit the current system against a form of proportional representation. But the Liberal members of the committee do not agree. Neither does their government. Here is Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef, earlier today, in Question Period.

SOUNDCLIP

MARYAM MONSEF: Mr. Speaker, I have to admit I'm a little bit disappointed because what we hoped the committee would provide us with the specific alternative system to First Past The Post. Instead, Mr. Speaker, they’ve provided us with the Gallagher Index. Mr. Speaker, while they did not complete the hard work we had expected them to.

[Sound: Loud boos and disapproval]

MM: This is consistent with what we’ve heard from Canadians.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was how opposition members reacted to Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef, earlier today, in Question Period. Scott Reid is a Conservative MP and a member of the Special Committee on Electoral Reform. We reached Mr. Reid in Ottawa.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mr. Reid, why do we need a referendum to decide how we vote in this country?

SCOTT REID: Well, we need it for two reasons. First of all, it's what Canadians want and Canadians want this consistently and overwhelmingly. Polls going back to the beginning of the year showed that somewhere continually in the neighborhood of 70 per cent want a referendum the most recent poll which came at a week ago says 75 per cent of Canadians want a referendum. That's one thing. The second thing is that a referendum is the way in which you ensure that a new electoral system is actually something that is in the eyes of Canadians an improvement over the status quo and you can only get that by means of a referendum.

DS: Now the Liberal members that were on this committee with you do not agree. They say that what you're proposing: too hasty, too rushed and too radical. What do you say?

SR: Well, it's not too rushed. We had the opportunity to make extensive inquiries of the chief electoral officer as to what would be required to change the electoral system and he told us the following. Keep in mind that the next election is 34 months from now. He indicated that to do a full redistribution of all the seats would take 24 months. It would take six months to have a referendum six months plus 24 it's doable — it's tight.

DS: Well Justin Trudeau ran on a promise that last year's federal election would be the last one ever conducted with the First Past the Post voting system so Canadians gave him a majority. Why isn't that enough?

SR: As you know as he pointed out himself. Thirty nine per cent of Canadians voted for him and he got his majority that way. I would point out additionally, some people say well look there were several parties running on changing the system and that's true. But I don't think that you can say that Canadians actually went to the polls thinking I'm doing this in order to get a new electoral system. Moreover, they didn't go there with any particular system in mind and Mr. Trudeau has to pick an actual system and present it to the people of Canada. By definition you can't have a new system without the government eventually initiating a change.

DS: Well others on your committee namely the members of the NDP and Green Party, would rather not hold a referendum because they think it would fail. So is that why you’re in favor or are you just in a way defending the status quo?

SR: Well, first of all, of course the majority report which was supported by the NDP and the Greens as well as ourselves and the Bloc, was in favour of a referendum on proportional representation versus the status quo. So that was the way the majority voted.

DS: But they've got a supplementary report saying they've got serious reservations?

SR: Apparently they do say that, but they voted in favor of a referendum with regard to the idea that a referendum is something that is proposed solely for the purpose of causing the victory of the status quo. That's just not so. I mean take a look at the history of referenda on electoral reform in Canada. There have been five twenty two in P.E.I; two is British Columbia and one in Ontario. Two of those have passed a 40 per cent success rate. That's actually by the standards of referenda pretty darn good.

DS: Do you think a national referendum on either keeping First Past the Post or some sort of proportional representation. Do you think it would fail?

SR: That I don't know. I will say this, if it's a badly designed system that does not take into account the legitimate concerns Canadians have keyed into the variety of concerns that were expressed to our committee. So for example, some of the people who came before our committee were concerned that we could set up a system which creates party lists where MP’s are chosen effectively by party bosses. There's a lot of opposition to that kind of thing. Put that up, it would be defeated. But put up a system that's well-designed and thoughtfully designed based on some of the feedback we got and I think you'd have a very good chance of having succeeded.

DS: This afternoon in Question Period the Democratic Institutions Minister Maryam Monsef says that she's disappointed by your committee report. That she had hoped that the committee would provide a more specific alternative system and that you didn't do that hard work. How do you respond to that?

SR: Yes sure, what the committee did was come up with a recommendation that calls for the government to complete the design of the alternate electoral system that is proposed on the referendum ballot prior to the start of the referendum campaign period and then we specified that option should have a Gallagher index of less than 5 which means that it must be proportional. So what we're really doing is saying look you guys are the legislative drafters — the experts. You go out there; there are three maybe four systems that could realistically fit with this description. Choose the one that seems best to you. You are the government after all and then bring it before us. And to be clear about this, she has said I will be introducing legislation in May. So she has: December, January, February, March, April and May to work on this. If she can't do it in five months for goodness sakes she’s not really doing a very good job.

DS: Is it possible to get this kind of reform in this country if a government gets elected appoints and committee you know comes back with a report. And then we debate the legitimacy of that and then we have to have a new system in place two years ahead of the actual vote. I mean within our voting cycle is this project possible in your view?

SR: It is possible. It would have been easier if the government hadn't spent the first six months just kind of spinning its wheels. But it is possible and the Chief Electoral Officer has explained to us exactly what has to happen in order to make it possible. One of those things is the government moving ahead with legislation in a relatively short order, but they still have enough time to go out there and design it thoughtfully. She says she has a favorite system she won't tell us what it is. She says she says the Prime Minister has a favorite system. He won't say what it is either. Assuming that system conforms with our request that it be proportional they could start working on it right now.

DS: What are you going to do to force the Prime Minister to take action? And is it good to rush this in the Liberals words?

SR: The Minister of Democratic Renewal has said she's launching a consultation 32 million response cards being mailed out across the country. Every household will get one. When you're asked some questions the questions that we've seen are very general a very high level. She could add in the same questions that the electoral reform special committee asked when it did its own consultation. We only got 22,000 responses she could get back millions. So that kind of consultation which happened in different months could have the effect of providing more feedback than the government has literally ever had on any other issue.

DAVE SEGLINS: Well Mr. Reid, I suspect we and most Canadians will be watching closely. Thank you.

SCOTT REID: My pleasure.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Scott Reed is a Conservative MP and a member as well of the Special Committee on Electoral Reform. We reached Mr. Reid in Ottawa.

[Music: Drum and bass]

17^th-century map

Guest: Isobel Griffin

JEFF DOUGLAS: When the National Library of Scotland was presented with a filthy old rag. The staff did not immediately take action. You can't really blame them. The thing seemed to have some sort of map on it, but it had come from a scrap heap. Now though they have realized it is an extremely rare find. Isobel Griffin is the Collection's Care Manager of the National Library of Scotland. We reached her in Edinburgh.

Dave SEGLINS: Miss Griffin, what kind of shape was this map in when you got it at the library?

ISOBEL GRIFFIN: It was in a very, very terrible condition. It was a scrunched up ball — maybe about the size of a football. And it just looked like a bundle of old rags — kind of brown, tatty cloth, with nothing really visible to tell you that it was a map.

DS: And I understand it was discovered inside a house that was undergoing renovations, is that right?

IG: That's right. It was a house in Aberdeenshire, which is in the northeast of Scotland. And the house was undergoing kind of a major program of renovations, and this map was found stuffed up a chimney. The north east of Scotland is quite cold, so it was presumably there to keep out the draft. And the contractors originally just thought that it was a piece of rubbish. They had on that pile of things that were going to be put in the skip outside. But then one of them happened to notice that there seemed to be a bit of a picture on it. And so rather than putting it in the skip, he took it home, kept it in the carrier bag in his garbage for many years. And then when he made friends with somebody who was interested in maps, he said, "Oh! You should see what I've got at my garage!" And gave the map to this man, and the man who received it then thought, "Oh, the library might be interested in this." So he made a trip down from Aberdeenshire to Edinburgh with the map and his carrier bag -- I mean, by this time I think it actually moved up in the world -- it was in a brown cardboard box, and handed it in to the library.

DS: So it goes from a chimney, to a garage for a few years, to a bag, to a box. It arrives in front of you. When you look at this bundle, what did you think?

IG: Straight away we felt so excited that it might be something interesting. But it was quite difficult to even get a proper look at it, because when we try to unfurl the map, immediately bits started falling off. And it was absolutely filthy. So we just said, "Thank you very much. We'll see what we can do." And then I think it sat on our shelves awhile. Then, at some point, we did have a go at unraveling it. And then we worked out what the image was.

DS: Before seeing the image, did you have any concept that you could actually restore this crumbling mass?

IG: No. And to be, honest even at that point, when it was unraveled the first time and we realized what it was, we were excited, but we didn't hold up much hope that there would be a way of conserving it. So at that point, it was photographed as best as it could be, and then put back in its box -- in its scrunched-up ball -- where it stayed for a few more years, until there was kind of renewed talk and interest in it. And so one of the conservators got it out to look at it again. And there was some discussion about whether it was a good use of our resources, because obviously we have millions of objects to work on. Was this really what we should be spending our time on? And we decided we'd do some tests and see where that would get us. And when the tests seemed reasonably successful, that was when we took the decision to go ahead with the full conservation job.

DS: So tell us about that. How do you go about turning crumbling rags into a restored map?

IG: Well the first difficult decision was whether we would keep the cloth backing or not. So it's eight paper sections, stuck on to a brown linen backing. And so it was quite a tough decision whether we should keep that linene backing or not. But in the end, because it was clearly causing so much damage, we decided that the only way to kind of move forward with the conservation was to try and take the linen backing off. And about half of the paper was missing. So the paper was quite complete in some areas, but then very fragmentary in others.

DS: How old was this? You placed it at what time in history?

IG: We think because of the pictures of William III and Mary in the middle, that helps very much with the dating — because they only range from 1689 to when Mary died in 1694. So we're talking around 1690.

DS: So the original linen is no longer holding, and there are pieces missing from the actual images. So what did you do from there?

IG: We used a humidity chamber to help flatten it out, because it was extremely kind of scrunched up, with these huge folds and tears. We applied a fine tissue paper to the front of the map, because it was so fragmentary that if we'd started taking the back off, without anything holding it together, it would have been like a huge pile of jigsaw pieces. So by facing the front, that kind of held everything in place. And we were then able to use moisture and small hand tools to pry the backing off, leaving us just with the paper pieces all in position, but still extremely dirty. So then the next stage was to wash it, which is something that I think people who don't know about paper conservation always think sounds extremely scary, but it's quite a common thing to do. So we washed this map and in a big bath of water, and tons and tons of dirt and soot came out of it. And then it was then in a much better state, and we were able to see much more of what was going on.

DS: And so what did you see?

IG: Well, what it shows is we've got William and Mary in the middle, and then there are two large hemispheres mapping the world. This is a style of maps that came in when people, you know, kind of began to realize that in fact the world wasn't flat. It was round, and so to show this, they showed the map kind of more as a globe shape. And there's decoration in each corner depicting the four seasons. And there's also — down each side — pictures of towns and cities. There's lots of really intriguing detail as well, some things that were going on at the time. So there's images of explorers, and where they're getting — very political and of its time.

DS: How rare a find is this?

IG: Well, there are lots of versions of this map by other map makers. But we only know of two of the surviving copies of this particular map, that was made by the map maker called Valck. And there's one in the British Library, and there's one in the Maritime Museum in Rotterdam. And they're similar to, but not absolutely identical to the map we have. So you could say it's a complete one-off, because the others are similar but not exactly the same. So it is rare. Probably not that valuable, given that it's so fragmentary. But in terms of its historical significance is quite important.

DS: So what will you do with it now?

IG: Well we're hoping that early in 2017, we'll have a display of it, because, you know, it would be so nice to have it hanging again, when it probably wasn't on a wall for hundreds of years.

DAVE SEGLINS: Well Miss Griffin thanks so much for telling us about it, and congratulations on this project.

ISOBEL GRIFFIN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Isobel Griffin is the Collection's Care Manager of the National Library of Scotland. We reached her in Edinburgh and we have posted that story on our website along with a photograph of that old old map and a video www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Electronica]

Angry beaver

JEFF DOUGLAS: Dateline St. Mary's County, Maryland.

[Music: Suspenseful theme]

JD: The sheriff's report reads the suspect attempted to flee the area. Not surprising really, perps usually try to get away with their crimes. But in the end despite trashing a dollar store and resisting arrest, this perp got off easy. Now this particular unruly holiday shopper was a beaver and after breaking into or maybe just wandering into a local dollar store. The beaver made a beeline not surprisingly for the tree aisle. Not finding the artificial trees to his liking, the rodent paused to bite into some other seasonal merchandise. But it was a short lived war on Christmas; eventually the beaver was apprehended by wildlife officials and instead of being thrown in the slammer. The animal was sent to wildlife rehab.

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Part 2: Rachel Notley: piplines, robbery jail sentence

Rachel Notley: pipelines

Guest: Rachel Notley

JEFF DOUGLAS: Kinder Morgan's Trans Mountain pipeline pumps three hundred thousand barrels of oil per day from Edmonton to the British Columbian coast. And now the federal government has agreed to let the company triple that. Alberta Premier Rachel Notley was in Ottawa this week to support that decision. But a year ago she introduced a climate change plan that includes both a tax on carbon and a cap on emissions. Premier Notley says that the pipeline and her climate plan go hand-in-hand, but she just has to convince her neighbors in British Columbia. We reached Alberta Premier Rachel Notley in Edmonton.

DAVE SEGLINS: Premier Notley, why is this pipeline project so important for Alberta? What does Alberta gain from it?

RACHEL NOTLEY: Well, as you know Alberta has been going through some difficult times for the last couple of years with the unprecedented drop in the international price of oil and it's really you know there's at least sixty five - seventy thousand people that have been put out of work and so we need to support the industry and get people back to work and drive economic growth here in this province. And what's so great about this particular pipeline is it allows us to diversify our markets. It allows us to sell our product east to China and to other Asia-Pacific markets. And in so doing we get rid of this price discount that we are subjected to by selling solely to the US. But it also gives us a higher level of economic independence. Generally by way of being able to pick and choose our markets based on the best timing here or there. And so it's long overdue that we have an ability to ship to Canadian Tidewater. And it was a good decision and I think ultimately an excellent example of balancing thoughtful and effective progress on environmental decisions with the need to support Canadians in their jobs.

DS: Well on that on the environmental concerns, the Prime Minister is tying the approval for this pipeline expansion to the carbon tax. Now he says that a national price on carbon pollution should start at about $10 a ton. That's in 2018 and should move up to $50 a ton by 2022. Is Alberta prepared to commit to that?

RN: Well, you know we are. We actually began working very hard on our climate leadership plan right after our government was elected. So that in the beginning of November 2015 we were able to announce a very comprehensive wide ranging well consulted made in Alberta climate leadership plan. We are actually ahead of the federal government's plan in that the $20 per ton price comes into effect this January 1st and then moves to 30 in January of 2018 and then we will basically hold that as the rest of the country catches up and that will move with them. And of course the other key part of our plan is that it puts a cap on emissions from the oil sands and that cap means that with this pipeline or a whole bunch of pipelines or no pipelines. What comes out of the oil sands in terms of greenhouse gas emissions is unaffected; because we have an independent plan here in Alberta that is keeping track of that and managing that.

DS: But help us understand how does the approval of an expanded pipeline moving out more oil for consumption around the globe affect capping emissions?

RS: Well, this does not increase the amount of oil that's produced. It's simply makes sure that we get better value for it as we sell it and then we take that value and we convert that into the work that we're doing to reposition our economy as a more progressive energy producer to move Alberta towards more renewable energy and to help us for instance with our coal phase out. These are responsible decisions, but they have to be taken carefully with a view to watching what it does to the economy using it as a diversification tool as opposed to moving so quickly that people lose their jobs and their economic security.

Ds: You're going to have to sell this politically, we know that you're going to British Columbia next week. We've heard that there is a lot of opposition especially in the Vancouver area city councilor Adrianne Carr has told As It Happens this week that she feels betrayed by the approval and the premier of B.C. is aligned a number of serious conditions before she will agree. How are you going to convince people in B.C. that this is a good idea?

RN: Well, I think you know even at this point we're saying that it's not black and white, but there's a fair amount of support for it already in B.C. There's no question there are legitimate concerns around port safety and coastal water safety and I think those need to be addressed. The other thing is that it's a question of understanding as well that there are a number of British Columbians who make their living in the oil patch or as a result of money coming from the oil and gas sector in Alberta. So this is about striking that balance with respect to job creation. Will everybody agree? Probably not. But we're going to try to have a respectful conversation and try to have people at least understand where we're coming from. They will all necessarily agree. But at the end of the day you know oil and gas amount to about 20 per cent of all of Canada’s exports and we can't simply declare the whole Asia-Pacific market is off limits because absolutely no place along the western coast of our nation is appropriate for us to be able to ship this product which makes up so much of what the country of Canada uses as export as part of the foundation of its economic growth. So even as we try to transition away from it we need to do it intelligently and this is part of that process.

DS: Who are you going to be meeting with next week? And will you be meeting with Indigenous and First Nations groups?

RN: At this point, I'm still working out my schedule in terms of who I will be meeting with. But I'm certainly hoping to have some opportunities to speak publicly about what we are doing in Alberta, what’s in our climate change leadership and how that benefits B.C’rs with respect to jobs and economic growth.

DS: One of the other barriers that we witnessed especially in the Northern Gateway is court challenges. And I understand that there are a number of court challenges already before the courts to challenge this Trans Mountain project. How will you deal with those hurdles?

RN: Well, ultimately I think that will be the job of the federal government. But we've spent some time looking at the decision around the Northern Gateway pipeline and we looked at what shortcomings were in play there as identified by the courts. And they mostly related to the way in which the Harper government failed to acknowledge or turn their attention to the matters that were addressed through the process and through consultations. My view is that there's been a much more wholesome and fulsome work done by the current federal government's cabinet in terms of accommodating a number of the key matters that were raised and that we probably find that that process has a great deal more integrity. And that will likely survive legal challenge. But you never know. You just don't know. I mean and I suspect there will be court deliberations and you know we'll see where we go, but I'm confident that there was a lot more care taken this time.

DAVE SEGLINS: Premier Notley, thank you for joining us.

RACHEL NOTLEY: Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Rachel Notley is the Premier of Alberta. We reached her in Edmonton and we have posted that interview to our website if you'd like to listen again or to share www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Robbery jail sentence

Guest: Dan Topp

JEFF DOUGLAS: Robert Michael Crawford walked into a CIBC bank branch in Windsor, Ontario last October and stated his mission. He was there to rob it. He didn't take away the money though because money was not what he wanted. Mr. Crawford wanted prison time. And this week he got his wish. Mr. Crawford was sentenced to four years in a federal penitentiary for attempted bank robbery. Dan Topp is Mr. Crawford's lawyer. We reached Mr. Topp in Windsor.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mr. Topp, first off, can you paint us a picture? What did your client actually do when he walked into this bank?

DAN TOPP: Well, what he did was he walked into the bank and he waited in line. And when it was almost his turn at the teller he told the teller I want all the money in the bank. And then he said can I have all the money in the bank? He never specifically threatened anybody. But then he got up on the counter. He went over the counter and he sat down in the chair where the teller would sit. The bank manager came over and he said to the bank manager show me the vault. So they took him back and he looked at the vault. The door was locked and he lit up a cigarette and he just kind of stood there waiting for the police I guess.

DS: What was he thinking?

DT: He had done this once before. And my understanding from my discussions were that it was his intention to go back to the bank and do something similar that would bring him back to the federal penitentiary.

DS: He wanted to be arrested?

DT: Yes. Yes he did. He was unhappy with the housing that's available in Ontario and he thought it be best if to go back to the penitentiary as opposed to dealing with the system.

DS: How do you explain that?

DT: Well, it's kind of bizarre because he is not someone who was addicted to drugs or alcohol or dependent on anything like that. So he's comfortable. He told me in the federal penitentiary system. He just didn't like the fact that here in Windsor you get about $376 a month for rent plus another $400 to live off of. And he thought that his life would be better in the penitentiary.

DS: How would you assess his state of mental health?

DT: He is mentally ill, but he is not mentally ill to the point where he's not criminally responsible for this offense. He's obviously cognizant of what he was doing was wrong and he's also fit to stand trial for court. So there really is no intervention that's available to him through the police or the court system. He's just made this decision in his mind that even though it's not a very smart decision by what normal people think, that he's just going to live in the penitentiary instead.

DS: If he's mentally ill why isn't he not criminally responsible based on his mental health?

DT: Well, his mental illness is I believe it to be schizophrenia. It's a high functioning illness and you can talk to him and you have a normal conversation with him about the weather or things like that. And then all of a sudden he might go into his theories about certain organizations controlling his life and this and that. But he's not dangerous.

DS: Now I don't want to minimize the impact of his actions. I mean what was the impact on the tellers and the people in that bank?

DT: Well, obviously if you're standing in the bank I mean at first, I always think about it if I was in there I'd be looking at this guy just thinking what's going on here. But the one teller explained in her victim impact statement that the fact that she didn't know what was going on. For instance, it wasn't a bank robbery like you see on TV with a gun or a weapon. It was very very bizarre and that actually scared her more. So the impact is real on the victims of the crime. And that's the problem and that's why he ended up going back to the penitentiary because he has to be specifically deterred. And society in general must be deterred from these types of bizarre yet criminal actions.

DS: Do you believe prison is the right place for him?

DT: No I don't. I do a lot of work with mentally ill accused people. And unfortunately he falls through the cracks of the Criminal Code and the system. The problem he has is with his ability for health care is that he has to want to help and it's part of the paranoia that the system is working against him, so he doesn't want to get involved with Canadian Mental Health Association or other health care professionals. So essentially he's left to his own devices. We can't force health care on him.

DS: What kind of position does a case like this put the prosecutor in and the judge frankly, knowing that they were essentially giving him what he wanted?

DT: Well, it was very difficult because in giving the judge for instance and giving him the four years wasn't what he wanted. He wanted more time. He was asking originally before I got involved as the appointed lawyer and then I became his counsel was a sentence of eight years or ten years for something like this. And during the pre-trial discussions with another judge that judge was saying to him I'm not going to give you that much jail. That's just not what I'm going to do. And the prosecutor also was in a very difficult position. The prosecutor in this case is a very smart individual who was essentially stuck because it's a second conviction for the same offense. And with the principles of sentencing the sentence is only going to go up. He got three years before, four years on this one is pretty fair and that's all the Crown asked for was four years.

DS: So years down the road he gets out on parole do you think he'll do it again?

DT: I don't know how to answer that question. He's mentioned in the presents report and to the prosecutor and the judge that yes he would do it again. I'm hoping he's not going to do it again. But I guess it could take some solace in the fact that it was albeit scary to the individuals a non-violent offense. It's really a sad sad case that this is his type of thinking.

DS: What's it been like for you as a lawyer handling a case like this?

DT: That's a good question. As I said, I do a lot of mental health work here in Windsor. So this case kind of found me, I didn’t find this case. And at first I was appointed and you know you do your best to help out and instruct the court and help the court to get through the process. But then I got a relationship with this client in the sense that he trusted me and I enjoyed the time I spent with him — it was always good — and I just don't understand why he wants to go to jail and that's really hard. The fact that he is going back to jail for something like this and that he might do it again and spend more time in the penitentiary. I personally can't imagine that as being better than being out on the street even though he was saying assistance wasn't meeting his needs. I would think he could find a way to get on in his life.

DAVE SEGLINS: Wow. What a curious case. Thank you for telling us about it.

DAN TOPP: Thank you so much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Dan Topp represented a man who attempted to rob a bank with the intention. Mr. Topp says, of going back to prison. We reached Dan Topp in Windsor, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

St. John’s drone

Guest: Rozalind MacPhail

JEFF DOUGLAS: Imagine you're sitting there in the comfort of your own home and then suddenly, a drone starts darting around outside your window. And then it keeps coming back. That is what is happening to Rozalind MacPhail. Ms. MacPhail lives in downtown St. John's and she says she is being harassed by a drone. Earlier this week she told her story to Anthony Germain host of the St. John's Morning Show.

SOUNDCLIP

ROZALIND MACPHAIL: I feel like I have a stalker drone around the house. It's been quite unsettling.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Can you describe this thing?

RM: Well, it has an obnoxious sound almost like an electronic bug and it has a blue and red light. So it's really easy to spot in the dark.

AG: OK and has it got a whole bunch of little propellers making it fly?

RM: Yes it does.

AG: Does this thing sort of come up and bounce off the windows? Does it swoop in? Does it hover? Give me give me a description of what it's doing?

RM: Yeah. Whoever is controlling this drone is very invasive and it feels like somebody is watching every move I make and I work from home. I have very very large windows looking over towards Signal Hill. In order for me to have privacy where I live I have to close all of my screens. So I normally speaking feel very safe where I live. And funny enough I was outside and I'm hearing this drone because you can't miss it. It's getting closer and it's getting closer and I'm looking up at it and wondering who is this person that's watching me right now? Well it it's kind of tempting to see what's going to happen if you step outside again and it was there again and it almost felt like this person knows my work schedule so well that it could watch me from my apartment in my windows and know the moment that I went to step outside and was right there.

AG: So have you gone to the police?

RM: I actually did call the police yesterday. Didn't have much luck, actually they wouldn't even take any written report. And when I asked them what should I be doing? I feel very threatened. I feel like this could potentially be somebody watching in order to break into our house and they stated that I just have to write everything down and take video and take photos and suggested that I find the person who owns the drone which I just find hysterical. They want me to find out who the person is who find the drone in my neighborhood.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: So it's sort of like you call the police and say OK you should investigate this?

ROZALIND MACPHAIL: Yeah, pretty much.

JEEF DOUGLAS Rozalind MacPhail of St. Johns, Newfoundland in conversation with the CBC's Anthony Germain about a drone that's been spying on her.

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Part 3: Laval corruption, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE): Ali Mustafa, Chess commentator

Laval corruption

JEFF DOUGLAS: Gilles Vaillancourt was the king of Laval. Now he is looking at six years behind bars. Mr. Vaillancourt was elected and then re-elected mayor of the Montreal suburb for a total of 23 years. This morning though, he pleaded guilty to fraud, breach of trust and conspiracy. It is part of a deal that will see Mr. Vaillancourt hand over his condo and millions of dollars from a Swiss account to pay back the city he was supposed to be serving. Marc Demers helped broker this deal. He is the former police officer who replaced Mr. Viallncourt as mayor we reached Mr. Demers in Montreal.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mayor Demers, what does this guilty plea mean for the people of Laval?

MARC DEMERS: Well, first of all, it means that we can trust justice which has been a question in last few years and in the last few weeks. Because we can all remember that no matter what your title is; how important you are. You're not above the law. Another message is that the collusion, corruption has no place no more in Laval. So as we speaking, Mr. Vaillancourt is now in jail and he has given back to the city an amount of seven million dollars. He has signed papers saying we don't have to give him HIS pension fund anymore and he has given us the titles of his condo which he owns in Laval.

DS: What was it like helping to broker this deal?

MD: Well, we've been negotiating since the month April and basically when they asked me am I open to negotiation. I said Yeah, but the damages are much bigger than what I think he can pay. So you'll have to convince me that he's going to put everything on the line. Let us know everything he owns and then we'll start a negotiation based on that. And he did and we had different ways to check out to make sure everything was there. We had legal advisers, accountants making verification and the deal says that if he forgot something or he lied to us. Well there's no deal, but since we have the money since we are the owner of his condo where we will be nine million dollars richer than we were last week and we'll be suing him for what he forgot to tell us.

DS: How hard was it to convince Mr. Vaillancourt to give over those millions plus his condo?

MD: Well, he is the one who got in touch with us. We didn't convince. And so I wasn't part of that. I never had contact with him. We were talking to lawyers and we said the basics of our negotiation. And he accepted them and you know public opinion was that he would never spend that day in jail and that only lawyers would make money out of our quest to get the money back. So today we stand. He's in jail and the judge will decide if it's six years as recommended by both parties and the city's nine million dollars richer for now.

DS: We've heard of him referred to you know and for a time he was he was considered the King of Laval. How would you describe him now?

MD: Well, I think he was there very very long and he was doing everything he wanted to do. Now he has to answer to justice. It's quite a drop. He's going to jail — he's in jail right now. And I believe he will be there for a minimum of two years probably between two and three. So at 75-years-old it's quite a drop and he has to live with it. But as a former police officer and an investigator, I'm kind of used to that.

DS: And remind us, how did all of that money wind up in Mr. Vaillancourt’s pockets?

MD: Basically most contracts given by the city he got a percentage at least — between two and three per cent. That's what was to Justice Charbonneau. But you know I'm not aware of all the evidence given to the Crown Attorney that's a criminal matter. I wasn't involved in that. I was involved only in the civil matter saying let's try and get the money back.

DS: So if through all those years on contracts with the city he was getting two and three per cent. He's now given up these millions and millions of dollars plus his condominium. Is he financially destitute?

MD: Well, he still has his pension from the government which he can access to it and his wife the personal money because she had that for many years. So they still have that.

SD: And with this deal, what does he get in return? Do you think?

MD: Well, first of all, probably he gets a lighter sentence than he would have gotten if he went to trial and found guilty and probably that his family will be less embarrassed and less involved in civil pursuit in court. So basically I think that might be the things which convinced him to say look I may as well negotiate and try to get an understanding between that crime and the city.

DS: Mr. Vaillancourt apologized today to the people of Laval. What do you have to say in return?

MD: Well, it's up to him that those things should never have had to happen. I mean when betray the trust of the people you should never betray them. Now if he is authentic by saying so is for everyone to judge and evaluate. But since I wasn’t there to hear him, I think one of his major concerns was to protect his family from all the trouble.

DAVE SEGLINS: Mayor Demers, thank you for speaking with us.

MARC DEMERS: Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Marc Demers is the Mayor of Laval. Today we reached him in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE): Ali Mustafa

Guest: Donya Ziaee

JEFF DOUGLAS: He was a freelance photographer from Toronto who worked in some of the world's most dangerous places. And, in 2014, Ali Mustafa was killed by a bomb dropped from a helicopter in Aleppo. And tonight in Toronto, Mr. Mustafa's photographs will be on display at the annual Canadian Journalists for Free Expression gala. His family will also be accepting an award in his honor. Donya Ziaee was a friend of Ali Mustafa. She will be at the gala tonight, but earlier today she joined us in the As It Happens studio and a note on this story in the interest of disclosure. My usual As It Happens co-host Carol Off, is the chair of the committee that puts on the CGFE gala.

DAVE SEGLINS: Donya, how are you feeling about seeing Ali's family accept this Memorial Award tonight?

DONYA ZAIEE: It's really a great honor and it's really exciting for all of us to see that Ali's work is finally getting the recognition that he really so truly deserved. But of course, it's also slightly bittersweet moment for all of us to see that Ali's. You know the recognition for Ali's work is coming after his death after. And we do wish that freelance photojournalists like Ali, could get this kind of support and recognition in their lifetime as well.

DS: Can you tell us a little bit about your friend? What drove Ali to go to these places like Aleppo, Syria with his photography equipment?

DZ: Well, Ali’s work as a photographer started in Toronto. And he would also later travel to Brazil, Palestine, Egypt and then later Syria. And he was drawn to these places and these contacts because of the issues that he saw going on in these places.

DS: Like what?

DZ: So, he was really interested to cover struggles where marginalized people were really fighting back. And for Ali his photojournalism was actually an extension of the kind of solidarity that he thought that we should be showing to these places and these people.

DS: Tell me about that, what drove him to sort of sympathize and want to align himself with the struggles of those people?

DZ: Well for example, in Aleppo in particular, he had said in his own writing and some of the interviews that he did that he felt that some media coverage wasn't really getting to the depths of the roots of the tragedy that was going on. Or that the narratives often focused on sort of the battle between the rebels and the government. And they left out the human story and the resilience and resistance that people showed in their everyday lives.

DS: I'm going to get to some of his photography in a moment, but what was he like as a friend?

DZ: He was wonderful. I met him when he was doing an undergraduate degree at York where I was also a student and we met through our campus activism together. I remember when I first met him he struck me as being really shy and introverted, but as someone who also just had a huge heart. He was so dedicated and principled in the work that he did. And those are qualities that I saw him show throughout his work ever since I met him.

DS: Shy and introverted aren’t terms that one equates with people who take the risk of going to danger zones like Syria. How do those two things square?

DZ: That is really one of the most unique things that a lot of us have talked about in relation to Ali. He never allowed that aspect of his personality to get in the way. In fact, it made him I think more relatable to the people that he was speaking to. There is one wonderful short documentary that he did in Egypt very soon after the Tahrir Square Revolution. And he just showed up with his camera and despite having only little working knowledge of the Arabic language people were flooding to him to speak and tell their stories. He had that kind of presence and people were drawn to him. They trusted him and they wanted to share their stories with them. Just as we saw with his death in Aleppo that he also knew when to put down the camera and sort of take off his reporting hat and just actually be there for the people. And that's what happened that day that he was killed in Aleppo he was actually there as a first responder with a Syrian civilian defense group, The White Helmets. And they go in after bombardments and raids in order to rescue people from beneath the rubble. And on March 9^th, 2014, he joined a group of first responders to rush to the scene of one of these aerial bombardments. There was a barrel bomb dropped in one of the districts in East Aleppo. And he arrived there with other first responders to survey the damage and that was when a second barreled bomb was dropped and killed him along with seven others.

DS: Wow. Tell me something, did you and his friends know that he was going to be in Aleppo and doing this work at the time?

DZ: He shared that with very few people. I think he knew how genuinely concerned all of us would be and he may have thought that we would try to discourage him from taking that risk.

DS: Did you?

DZ: Well, I was not aware that he was going, but had I known I probably would have shared my concerns. I don't know if I would have stopped him from going because I know that's where his heart really was and that's what he wanted to do and that's where he wanted to be. But I have a sense that he chose not to tell us because he didn't want to concern us. And I think he was just so you know he had such a strong conviction and he wanted to be there. That he chose to make that decision mostly alone.

DS: Even his family didn't know that's where he was. What do you know about that?

DZ: That's right. Most of us thought that he was staying in Egypt that entire time and it was a shock to us when we learned of his death to even find out he was in Aleppo to begin with.

DS: He's being honored for his journalism. Tell me about his photography can you think of a photo in particular that that you could describe so we can get a sense of what the work was that he was doing with his journalism?

DZ: One photo in particular that I quite love. It's of a young girl chasing a tire in the middle of this refugee camp. And in the background you see these worn down, derelict tents that really give us a sense of the devastation that these families have gone through. And if you look closely on one of these tents you see the Arabic word which means get out or leave. Which was one of the slogans of the Arab Spring and so in that one simple photo he manages to capture so much both the story of the suffering of this family. But also how they still managed to find hope and meaning in these moments.

DS: Journalists are usually reluctant to become activists. What do you think drove him to put his camera down and get involved helping in a different way?

DZ: For me I think Ali's approach typified the best of what journalism has to offer which is again to not just cover stories but to be a part of them and to popularize them and even lend a helping hand where possible. He wasn't afraid to defy those conventions and to sort of get out from underneath the cloak of neutrality and so on. He was an activist journalist. He was an advocate at the same time as being a journalist.

DAVE SEGLINS: Donya, thank you so much for helping remember Ali.

DONYA ZIAEE: Thank you so much for having me and thanks for giving us the opportunity to talk more about his work.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Donya Ziaee was a friend of Toronto photographer Ali Mustafa who was killed in Syria, in 2014. She joined Dave in studio.

[Music: Somber]

Alberta TB cows

Guest: Dan Osadczuk

JEFF DOUGLAS: At least ten-thousand cattle in Western Canada are to be destroyed. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency is trying to stop more animals from getting bovine tuberculosis. In September, one cow from Alberta tested positive for bovine TB. There have been five more cases since. And a number of ranches in Alberta and Saskatchewan have been quarantined this week the federal government announced more than 16 million dollars in assistance to affected ranchers Dan Osadczuk spoke with David Gray on The Calgary Eyeopener earlier today. The rancher’s cattle will be put down. Here's part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

DAN OSADCZUK: My uncle was the original. My uncle and my cousin were the original. But my brother he has basically the same herd as me, we were together and we've separated. He's losing you know basically the same amount of cattle as I am. It's a three generation one-iron herd, so I don't know how we’ll ever replace it.

DAVID GRAY: You’ve been choosing your words carefully and I appreciate that. But what do you think of how the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is communicating with you?

DO: I understand what they have to do. I don't appreciate it much, but on Monday when they phoned all their answers it was 12 vets who phoned 12 different ranchers and informed them and then from then until you know they said they were going to depopulate and they would get back to us later. Well they phoned us last night at 7:00 o'clock and told us they're going to be here this morning so they don't give you a lot of time to prepare. Or you know whatever. But you know otherwise I don't know. You know like if they're doing this to people's livelihoods so they that they really have to have a plan right? Otherwise you know if they were going to come in and take all your dogs and cats and stuff if they let you plan on it for a while it probably wouldn't work that well for them would it? It's a it's a very tough situation they're in. And we are in.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was a rancher Dan Osadczuk speaking with the CBC's David Gray earlier today on The Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music: Ambient]

Chess commentator

Guest: Maurice Ashley

JEFF DOUGLAS: It took three weeks, but the World Chess Champion has finally been crowned. Yesterday, Norway's Magnus Carlsen took home his third-consecutive title. He beat Russia's Sergey Karajakin in a dramatic tie-breaker. Maurice Ashley watched it all go down as a commentator at yesterday's event. Mr. Ashley is a chess grandmaster himself and the last time he was on this program he told us about his plan to turn chess into a high profile high stakes Vegas-style spectator sport. We reached Maurice Ashley in Brooklyn.

DAVE SEGLINS: Maurice, you were there when Magnus Carlsen finally won the World Chess Championship yesterday, what was that moment like?

MAURICE ASHLEY: It was a pretty amazing moment. The final game that he won there was one that will go down in the annals of chess history. It was a beautiful sacrifice of the most important piece — the queen — the most important attacking peace. And it' one he's going to remember forever and it was on his birthday no less. So he’ll remember it as a birthday sacrifice that won him the world title.

DS: Now I understand the players are actually competing in a soundproof studio. Describe that scene for us what does it look like?

MA: The players were in the sound proof glass booth. You could actually look in it's almost like a fish bowl if you will. We are looking in; they’re not hearing anything on the outside. They weren't even seeing anything because the room was dark on the outside they could just focus on the game. The fans were either in that space where they had to be quiet or they were in a bigger space out further out. Fans could not only watch the game on big on a big screen — on several screens around the area — but also listen to the commentators give ytheir insight as to the drama of each moment that was going on in the game.

DS: So how many fans are packed around this fishbowl?

MA: There are hundreds of fans there. There is also a VIP suite where you have a few big names: Peter Thiel, the billionaire who was an early investor in Facebook down there. Woody Harrelson came from one of the first moves. And there’s just a lot of excitement and a lot of buzz around these two young guys. Each is 26-years-old playing for the title of being the best player on the planet.

DS: Now Magnus Carlsen was the obvious favorite to win, but this took three weeks. Why did this competition take so long?

MA: Well, 12 games it was two games followed by a break-day. So it wasn't as though they were playing a lot of games each day it was one game a day. So because of the schedule it took as long as it did. Now many people thought — including myself — thought that Magnus was supposed to steam-roll Sergey. Magnus is clear consensus number one in the world by ranking, by performances and he’s just been a dominant player in the last five years. Sergey is a top-ten player. Definitely a great player, but not up to Magnus’s caliber. But in this match he found some weakness he found out. Whatever his strategy was not only did he find weakness in the play, but also psychologically he looked like the tougher player and Magnus couldn't put him away. So that's why they had to go to tie-break.

DS: So, before the tie-break. give us give us a sense of the early going, the early 12 matches?

MA: Well, we call them the 12 games in the match. The first couple of games were totally dull. It was like boxers feeling themselves out in the ring. The next three were much more intense, both sides trying to land a blow, but Sergey defending so well in Game three and four and Game five. He hunted Magnus down, but it was Magnus’s turn to defend. And they went slow for a while until the very important game eight when Karajakin drew first blood with Magnus tried to win just a bit too hard getting frustrated. So, he was already down again in the match, but he was able to strike back as early as game ten and tie it up where they finally concluded the 12 games with a couple of draws to get to the tie-break.

DS: I'm hearing a lot of boxing metaphors here?

MA: my sister is a World Champion boxer, so I've been in the field quite a bit. But it is a heavyweight fight. People think that chess is kind of supposed to be a quiet sport. No way, these guys are fit; they train and they don't want to get tired in that six or seventh hour of play. So they have to be athletes and they are just the young horses for now. In the top-ten players in the world seven of them are under 30, so we're talking about a very youthful sport.

DS: So it all comes down to a tie-breaker and that involved. Help me understand this is a four game rapid play off. How are those games different from the previous ones?

MA: rapidly play off is the fun stuff. Classical games like I said can last four, five, six or seven hours. Rapid games only last an hour maximum. So they can't waste their time when they play. And so these games are quick they're fast-paced. The commentators try to keep up as soon as you have an idea the players have made another move. The first two games ended in draws. The second game Magnus had him by the throat but somehow Sergey again managed to defend really well. But games three and four the champion emerged once more, showed what kind of player he is and was able to put the match away.

DS: All right I'm going to ask you to do something fun for us. I want to I want a flavor of those final matches and last time we talked to you we you gave us a sense of you're in this as a commentator and you're trying to build this as a major spectator sport. So give us give us a flavor of what you were doing in these final two games.

MA: Well I did commentator on the last game and it was extremely exciting. Magnus was on the attack trying to get some space in the game. Sergey had to win the game so he was caging in the corners, trying to make some moves trying to get his pieces in just the right way. But he couldn't because he was being dominated so much in the space of the game on the board. There were no chances, but then Magnus finally broke through got some material got a wing advantage. But it was a beautiful final moment — the moment he sacrificed his queen that threw us all out of our chairs. That is tremendous move to win the game, to claim his championship and show that he is indeed the number one player in the world.

DS: Wow! I'm feeling it and I don't even fully understand chess.

MA: You know chess is quite a game. It has been around for 1,500 years. We teach it to five year olds. People get intimidated by the fact that it's chess and it's very intellectual. In spirit it's just a game. It is fun; it takes less than 20 minutes to learn all the rules and a lifetime to try to master it. But also a lifetime of fun to have fun playing this wonderful game.

DS: Now when we talk to you two years ago you told us about your plans to try to turn chess into a major high stakes spectator sport in Las Vegas. A lot like poker. How is that all going?

MA: It's still a difficult road to climb. A lot of people don't believe in chess as an exciting activity with mass-market appeal. So it's taking time still, but I think that with matches like this one seeing how young the sport is seeing how much the fans come out to watch and how much it's followed all around the world. Sooner or later we're going to crack that nut and those sponsors are going to come on board and those broadcast dollars will be coming in.

DAVE SEGLINS: All right. Maurice thanks very much for sharing some of your excitement.

MAURICE ASHLEY: My pleasure.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Maurice Ashley is a chess grandmaster and he was a commentator at the World Chess Championship yesterday where Norway's Magnus Carlsen took home the top prize. We reached Mr. Ashley in Brooklyn.

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Dec. 1, 2016 episode transcript

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