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The AIH Transcript for November 23, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight.

CO: When it comes to NASA the sky will be the limit. An adviser to President-elect Donald Trump says the space agency's climate change research is politicized science, which is why it may be scrapped.

JD: He has ways of helping you talk, in the aftermath of spying revelations against a group of Quebec reporters. One senator introduces legislation to protect journalistic sources and whistleblowers.

CAROL OFF: Out of the action but not out of danger. After a new report finds a shocking rate of suicide among Canada's combat veterans our guest says the military has to do more to help and do it fast.

JD: Fundy business, the switch is officially on for Canada's first tidal turbine in the Bay of Fundy, but fishermen are not exactly charged up about the power source because they are worried it threatens marine life.

CO: A hard night's knight. They were trying to do is reveal the name of the new NHL team. But last night's announcement about the Vegas Golden Knights went over like a Vegas lead balloon.

JD: And the joining the upper crest, for the first time ever women surfers will take part in a California event where waves can be up to 30 meters high. Our guest tries to explain why she considers that good news. As It Happens the Wednesday edition, radio that knows there is a lot going on below the surfers.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Part 1: Trump climate advisor, suicide report, female surfer

Trump climate advisor

Guest: Robert Walker

JEFF DOUGLAS: President-elect Donald Trump has notoriously claimed that climate change is a hoax, of course, Mr. Trump's ideas can have a certain fluidity. Yesterday for example, he walked that back a bit acknowledging what he called quote, "some connectivity between human actions and climate change." But if that's a step forward, his administration will take one enormous and dangerous step back. One of his space policy advisers has said that under President Trump, NASA's climate change research will be brought to a halt. That adviser is Robert Walker. He is the former chairman of the U.S. House Science Space and Technology Committee. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Walker, why do you think NASA should stop doing research related to climate change?

ROBERT WALKER: Well, I think that the climate change research should be placed in agencies that are more oriented toward earth science. There are a number of agencies of the policy that was developed by the Trump campaign would have NASA go back to its roots of doing deep space science and doing exploration. And so we are not ending climate science by any stretch of the imagination, but what we are doing is assuring that the science which is done is done by agencies that are more equipped to handle that kind of scientific endeavour.

CO: Climate scientists say that they find that the work that NASA does - the satellite imagery that it can obtain - and it alone can obtain is crucial to their understanding of climate and the environment. So how are they going to get that kind of information that data?

RW: That the programs would remain the same. I mean it doesn't mean that they're not going to be satellites. So it doesn't mean that they're going to lose anything by having agency transfer it simply means that NASA will be able to focus on the things that NASA does best and the other agencies will focus on the things they do best.

CO: You've written that NASA is too focused on politically correct environmental monitoring of climate change. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

RW: Well, I've never written that so huge.

CO: I'm so sorry sir, we just have an op ed piece that it's agents co-signed by you so that's not a quote from you?

RW: Well no, what you what you have is a position paper that was done by that by the campaign that yes I'm signed on to.

CO: oh ok.

RW: But I don't remember that we said in that paper that it was politically oriented science. What I have said is that I think that the climate science needs to be done at places that are oriented toward climate. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is a climate agency. It is our feeling that the climate agency should be doing climate programs. What I will say is that I think there has been a good deal of political correctness that has been tied to the science programs and I would like to be in the position of backing sound science or not politicize science.

CO: In what way can you give us examples?

RW: Sure, the fact that they have reported temperature that they said was the highest temperatures in... I`ve forgotten whether it was in history or there was a significant number of years and so on for one month and it turned out that there were only 39 percent sure of that figure. Well that's a press release not a scientific kind of statement. I'm interested in scientific integrity. I'm interested not in scientific analysis that goes to the politically correct outcome. I'm interested in having the integrity of science that ensures that that they are using scientific method to come to their conclusions.

CO: Do you doubt the conclusions that climate scientists have come to as to the effects of climate change and that the causes of it that are human?

RW: Well, what I question is whether or not the science that has been done thus far is being done as scientific analysis rather than a work of scientific institution in investigation. Look you know I'm not a scientist I'm a politician I know politics when I see it. And there has been a great deal of political use of what some scientists have done. I also look at the fact that there are very very reputable climatologists who have doubts about the nature of the work that's being done in the climate area. I believe the climate science is absolutely essential to us going forward. I think that the climate science though should be done by people who are really oriented toward understanding the best science that we can possibly achieve.

CO: Here's a statement. Human activities are responsible for almost all of the increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere over the last 150 years. Would you agree with that?

RW: I don't know whether or not that's true or not.

CO: Can I just tell you the source of that statement? The United States Environmental Protection Agency Well United United States Environmental Protection Agency has over the last few years has been a highly politicized agency. So you know I don't Regard that as being a real scientific judgment.

CO: We're just learning some of the views of the President-elect now. And there's a statement he made just in 2015 that I'd like to play for you and get your response. This is Mr. Trump.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Well first of all, I'm not a believer in global warming. I'm not a believer in man-made global warming. It could be warming and it's going to start to cool at some point. And you know in the early in the 1920's people talked about global cooling I don't know if you know that or not they thought the earth was cooling. Now it's global warming. So I am not a believer.

CO: All right that's President-elect Donald Trump in 2015. Do you agree with him?

RW: Well, I think that it is clear that the models that the scientists have used on global warming have been extremely flawed models that the things that they said 10 and 15 years ago that were going to take place downstream have not happened. The fact is, that those models should be questioned because they have not proven to be accurate and they're under constant revision by the scientists who have developed them. That's all good that's fine. But don't tell us that we ought to make multi-trillion dollar political decisions based upon science which may be incomplete.

CO: You don't agree that the vast majority of climate scientists support the consensus that global warming is happening in this man-made?

RW: When you say the vast majority I don't think it's the vast majority of climatologists who believe that. I said the scientific consensus that they keep talking about includes many social scientists as well.

CO: I'm talking about published climate scientists.

RW: There is still a debate about the causes of the global warming I think that that debate is healthy and I am entirely concerned about the fact that some of the climatologists who do not buy in to the orthodoxy are being prevented from even having their works published. Because they are being told that if you don't agree with the orthodoxy you are not really engaged in good science.

CO: Now it's stated though that a very small percentage in probably single digit percentage of scientists disagree with that. But can you tell me what you think is true?

RW: I don't think that's true. I think that there are there are a significant number.

CO: What number? Can you give me a percentage?

RW: Number of climatologists who are skeptical of the man-made part. And so that's what has to be proved at the present time so far has not been present because they have relied upon only models to tell that and the models have proven to be flawed.

CO: You've said elsewhere you think about only about half of scientists actually agree with the consensus on climate change?

RW: You're using the term scientists. I'm using the term climatologists and climatologists are divided in that particular analysis.

CO: What's the source of that fact?

RW: I don't remember exactly where I said where I've seen it, but I it is something that I have read somewhere along the line.

CO: Would you be able to provide us with the source of that fact?

RW: Look you know I can't I. I read all the time and I don't I don't remember that but. But the fact is that in world panels all climate many of the people who do not agree with the conclusion of human caused global warming have not been permitted to present at those panels and in many cases their articles and their research has not been permitted to be put in the standard scientific journals.

CO: And the panel you're referring to is?

RW: Again it is a it is science. It's the various science panels that meet it's the U.N. panel it's the climate forms that take place on a worldwide basis.

CO: I think you're referring to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Is that right?

RW: That's one of them yes.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Walker thank you.

ROBERT WALKER: You're welcome.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Robert Walker was a senior policy adviser on Donald Trump's presidential campaign. He is an adviser to the president elect's transition team. After that interview Mr. Walker sent an e-mail in which he provided citations for his claims and we have posted those along with that interview on our website. You can find all that at www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Triphop.]

Jo Cox’s Sister

JEFF DOUGLAS: A little over five months ago British Labour MP Jo Cox was brutally stabbed and shot as she was leaving a constituency meeting. Today a judge sentenced her killer Thomas Mair to life in prison. Speaking of Mr. Mair's sympathy for Nazis and white supremacists, the judge said quote, "Our parents generation made huge sacrifices to defeat those ideas and values. In the second world war, what you did betrays those sacrifices. During the attack, Thomas Mair was overheard yelling quote This is for Britain and quote keep Britain independent. Joe Cox's sister, Kim Ledbeater spoke outside the Old Bailey Courthouse in London today. Here is some of her statement.

SOUNDCLIP

Our focus now as a family is to look forward. We can begin to consider our own loss, in our our way and in our time. We are grateful to the vast majority of the media. For respecting our privacy and would like to thank them in advance of continuing to do so. We can and we will work through our pain. And as a family, we stronger and more united. What. Can be difficult at times is thinking about the ripple effect of Joe's murder. And the many lives that is affected. However. It has always been my belief that we can not always choose what happens to us. We can try to choose how we respond. I for one, will not be beaten. I know I am not alone. It is the last thing my sister would want. And it is not who I am. I will channel my energy into ensuring that legacy continues. And as a family we will respond with strength, love, positivity and enthusiasm. Strength. and love for each other. Positivity and enthusiasm for the principles Joe believed in: compassion, tolerance, acceptance, understanding and a determination to continue to fight for what is right. Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was Kim Leadbeater sister of the late Jo Cox, addressing the media in London following the sentencing of her sister's killer.

[Music: Folk]

Suicide report

Guest: Michael Blais

JEFF DOUGLAS: 18 members of Canada's armed forces took their own lives in 2015. And the suicide rate among soldiers who had seen combat was nearly double the average for the forces as a whole. Those are among the findings of a new report from Canada's surgeon general the Department of National Defence calls them quote alarming. But Michael Blais has been sounding the alarm for years. Mr. Blais is President of Canadian Veterans Advocacy and we reached him in Niagara Falls.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Blais, for some time now you have been asking for the military to reveal its data. The numbers and the rate of suicide among returning soldiers. Is this what you suspected?

MICHAEL BLAIS: Well, we certainly had an inclination that the numbers would be at least equivalent to the civilian population as it proved out to be. However, I find that this survey is unique in the sense that it has specifically identified the threat that those who have been deployed are experiencing and the higher risk of suicide they are in.

CO: A higher rate of suicide than the general population of men. Is that right?

MB: Well you know I mean, their statistics would be comparable. However, we must understand that you know those who have sustained serious mental trauma Carol, they won't take that final lap while they're still in uniform. In a most recent article in a series on the Globe and Mail. You know we had a preponderance of veterans now committing suicide within two years of release. So I think when we add these numbers to the equation it creates a definite situation where I am hopeful the Department of Defense will respond.

CO: When you talk about the levels of depression it's also is it not established that if we're looking at this comparing the population of soldiers to the regular population that it's also that those who are in the service — in the forces — tend to have less inclination statistically toward depression and suicide to begin with?

MB: Well, let's face reality, you know and when we go through the recruiting process and the aptitude test and the basic training and our leadership training you know we've demonstrated that we have a high tolerance for trauma. But you know war is trauma. Peacekeeping is trauma. There are issues that are never experienced within the civilian world and God bless. God willing it will never be an experience anyone in Canada will have to endure.

CO: You mentioned the Globe and Mail's ongoing investigation. Quite significant numbers they have reported at least 71 soldiers and veterans have taken their lives after completing tours in Afghanistan. The numbers of military members that we lost on that mission: 158. And so it would appear that more than half as many soldiers and veterans have taken their lives and killed themselves after the mission then the numbers who actually killed in the mission.

MB: Well that's the bitter reality of war. You know and as you know I deal with a doctor who wrote this book on suicide in the armed forces the data that is collected would predicate that for every war we engage and eventually that that roll call of suicide for those who came back with the mantle won't that wasn't trade it will supersede that of those who served in combat. And I suspect as time goes if we're not there already because we don't really track very well on the veterans side of the house that we will of course supersede that. And we may do it in an exponential direction, dimensions unless we rally and then establish preventive protocols.

CO: You were agitating with a conservative government - with the Harper government — to do something about what you were finding among the people you knew the people you were speaking with was this tremendously high rate of mental illness and inclination to suicide. Without even having the numbers you knew that was going on because of your contacts you pushed for it. You were frustrated the Trudeau government when they were running for office said that they would do more they promised to do that. What have you found what is the Trudeau government done to change the situation for soldiers?

MB: Well I can speak at a level of general Vance, the chief of defense staff, who I spoke with slightly before Remembrance Day in Ottawa and the issues that you mentioned that we were fighting for were brought forward you know. And now you know we still have 18 suicides has it been implemented to the point where it's effective and we're seeing that number yet? Well that's arguable. But what is not arguable is that there has been definitive movement on the mental health side but reality is it's only been a year.

CO: You know a lot of soldiers you know those who've taken their lives you knew them you know their families. How are the families how are the soldiers and the families of the soldiers responding to this report today?

MB: I think many are very upset mostly in the sense that it revives you know their grief or the things that they may have gone through to because you know I know many who have reached out to for help who were in the system when the suicide occurred. And you know it's a matter of providing and ensuring not only for the for the victim of the wound, but for his family because often my first point of contact is a spouse who may be still alive and that family's entered very deeply and so the cycle of discord. It is so frustrating to me that we're not making those definitive actions that are required. And no we're not helping the families in the aftermath of the suicide. You know the military culture is very closed. You don't want a suicide happens look how hard it was to get the information but these families have been isolated and many times when you know it's the Globe and Mail articles and with incidents like this that grief is like an open wound, we're rubbing in salt into it.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Blais, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MICHAEL BLAIS: Thank you, Carol.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Michael Blais is the President of Canadian Veterans Advocacy. We reached him in Niagara Falls, Ontario.

Female surfer

Guest: Sarah Gerhardt

JEFF DOUGLAS: It is menacing and it is dangerous and to a few select big wave surfers, it's paradise. Each year a northern California surf spot called Mavericks hosts one of the most exclusive surf competitions in the world at Mavericks. The ocean can produce vertical walls of water 15 to 30 meters high. That's between 50 and 100 feet. And this year women are getting the chance to compete there for the first time. Sarah Gerhardt will be one of them. She was the first woman to surf Mavericks. We reached her at the airport in San Jose.

CAROL OFF: Sarah, how do you think it will feel to take to the water and compete at this surf competition for the first time for you?

SARAH GERHARDT: Well I really am overwhelmed by the thought of being out in the water with just my peers surfing with women only. And I think it's going to be amazing and beautiful.

CO: Can you can you tell us about Mavericks, this surf spot that you were the first woman who did it in 1999 you were 24 at the time. What is that wave like?

SG: Mavericks is one of the best big wave surf sports in California - Northern California - it is about half a mile off shore. There is a deep reef and it's mostly exposed with rocks that are about 15 to 20 meters high. And then reef submerges and has a drop off of maybe 100 feet deep. So it is this perfect set up for Pacific Swells to come in and hit the reef. And stand up really tall you know 30 sometimes 50 feet and then it's even been recorded 100 feet at the surf spot.

CO: You know you say it's a perfect set up for surfing. It's a perfect set up to kill you!

SG: Yeah it's true that any wave at Mavericks can maim or kill and it has claimed lives. And it's certainly maimed a lot of people. It's not a wave to be trifled with. And like any challenge you know whether you're trying to climb Everest or you know go white-water rafting or doing something like that, yes, there's always the risk of injury or death. And so you have to be prepared and in the you know prepared to face the inevitable that potentially you could get hurt or die.

CO: I just watched the previous competition - earlier competition - and just in the video and I felt nauseous. But what's it like. Tell us what it's like to be on and in that wave?

SG: Well, the experience of being at Mavericks is one of the amazing experiences of being out in the wilderness at the top of a mountain. Maybe you've climbed up and you're about to put your skies on and the only way down is dropping down the mountain on your skies. In a dangerous but amazing environment. It's very much like that. It's wild, open, there's sea life. And the ocean at its greatest power all coming together in these little moments that you can ride perfectly. And it's very I use the word overwhelming and it's very overwhelming. The senses are overwhelmed and fighting and everything is exciting and the people out there that I know that are my friends are friendly and we are all excited about catching a wave.

SG: When you are in the right position to catch a wave, there's a one second window of decision where I have to make that decision am I going for that wave it and if I am I have to push with all of my might to try to catch it and then there's that one to two seconds of paddling and then half a second looking down like I'm jumping on a four story building and I have get to my feet and make my board connect to the face of the wave so that I can survive my four-story jump.

CO: This is the first year that female surfers have been in this competition at Mavericks. Why do you think it's taken so long?

SG: You know, I surf there but I never pushed a contest. So you know if you don't have that people who want to it. If you don't have the voices speaking up for it then it's not going to happen. And this year Bianca Valenti, a San Francisco surfer, and some other surfers from Maui really spoke up and said, we want to surf in this contest, make it happen." And so that door is open.

CO: You were the first woman to ever serve at Mavericks, so why have you decided you want to take this on again?

SG: Well, the past 18 years I've been surfing Mavericks. My husband surfs Mavericks as well. And we have two kids together and so over the past 18 years we've been on this journey of riding waves out there together. So surfing for me, I feel like it's an opportunity to prop the door open for the future of women's surfing and pass the torch on. I've been carrying it for the past decade and a half.

CO: Well Sarah, Good luck to you. Take care of yourself out there - look out for sharks.

SG: Oh I know right? Sharks are scary, but the waves are scarier.

CAROL OFF: All right. Take care of yourself, Sarah. Thanks.

SARAH GERHARDT: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Sarah Gerhardt is a big wave surfer. We reached her at the airport in San Jose, California.

CAROL OFF: Yikes.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Sounds fun.

CO: This is an armchair surfer; just listening to her was all I could do.

JD: As a channel surfer.

CO: I feel nauseous now. Any ways we're going to slowly ride a little wave out in my water wings and we will come back with these stories.

JD: Yes, when we come back. Conservative senator Claude Carignan has a private members bill he thinks is going to help protect journalistic sources and whistleblowers he does have a question though. Why is this being left to a Conservative senator to do instead of the Liberal government?

CO: With great power comes great responsibility, which is why fishermen are fighting the tidal turbine in the Bay of Fundy. It's a great power source but who will be responsible for marine life?

JEFF DOUGLAS: And we're going to hear the moment when they were all set to announce the name of Las Vegas's new NHL team. And then the next moment and the next. And finally the moment they just said it. Stay tuned. I'm Jeff Douglas.

CAROL OFF: And I'm Carol Off.

2

Part 2: Spying: Claude Carignan, Nova Scotia tidal power script

Spying: Claude Carignan

Guest: Claude Carignan

JEFF DOUGLAS: A journalist's relationship with a confidential source is built upon trust. When that trust is broken — when journalists can no longer ensure confidentiality — it makes it difficult to get people to speak out. That is not a hypothetical situation these days for journalists in Quebec, where it was recently revealed that the Provincial and Montreal police had been spying on up to 10 journalists. Now with the introduction of a new private member's bill one Conservative senator is vowing to increase protection for sources. We reached conservative senator Claude Carignan earlier today in Ottawa.

CAROL OFF: Senator Carignan, why did you decide that you needed to table this bill?

CLAUDE CARIGNAN: Because I think that is the fundamental role of journalists in our democracy and we have to recognise that and to protect this privilege of journalistic source's secrecy. And also seeks to protect whistleblowers.

CO: So did you think that since you we've learned what we have from Quebec about the journalists who were being surveyed and spied on by police. Were you already working on this bill?

CC: No, I was shocked when I learned that and I started to see what's happened and how they could do that with our legislation. So I realized that I have seen sovereign court ruling, but I thought that it was well known for the police officers that you can do that. So I realize that we have some old in our legislation and with the common law. So I decided to work on this bill.

CO: And what do you think that your bill will do to prevent what happened to Quebec journalist Patrick Lagace, who was not only was spied on he was tracked and the other journalists whose records were surveyed and spied on by police - their phone records. How will your bill prevent that from happening?

CC: First my bill will cover all those type of warrants, search warrants but also when you are under surveillance and it’s when you want to have this information you have to go to see a judge - a Superior Court judge - and all the information that it will be collected will be sealed by the court and none of the parties can consult it without the tribunal permission. So if an officer wants to examine the information relating to a journalist that is collected now it is sealed. So you have to give a notice to the journalist in concern and to the news organization and the journalist will have ten days to oppose saying that I think that this information could be to reveal one of my source.

CO: But even after those 10 days it the journalists who said yes this will reveal sources. Can the authorities, can the police still proceed with looking in that file?

CC: No, the judge will have to authorize that. And he could fix conditions, so the judge will have to make the balance between the public interest in such a justice or to protect the communication. So a first time the journalist will have to demonstrate that he is a journalist and this information was related to his work. And after that the police will have to demonstrate to the judge that they need this information and they cannot have this information with another source.

CO: But still I mean you're putting more firewalls in the way of the police getting the access, getting a search warrant on the records and the communications of a journalist. But the judge and the police can still do that they can still find their way through even if they have to go through a higher level of court. And even if they have this sealed. So the chilling effect, the effect on sources will still exist will it not?

CC: The tribunal will have to decide. But it will be more difficult for the police to have access. And I think that journalists understand that they cannot have the same type of secrecy because that's not in the constitution. The bill is to put more importance to the confidentiality of the journalistic source. And it will be more difficult for the police to have access. And the judge will be able to determine all fixed conditions to protect the sources. It will also have the power to minimize the disruption of the news organization activities.

CO: You know the Charbonneau Commission, an extremely important commission in Quebec. The direct result of a Radio-Canada investigation into collusion between organized crime, union and the construction industry and high level politicians and those reporters as you know could not have exposed that corruption Quebec society - one of the biggest stories ever exposed. If it hadn't been for their sources feeling they could do so with confidence. Those were the journalists those are the very journalists who the Quebec police were spying on. So will they be able to get the kinds of sources that they got that led to that Charbonneau Commission under your bill?

CC: Yes, I totally agree with you. And that's very important. That's the reason why I tabled this bill and I built this bill to give this type of protection to the media.

CO: The Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has resisted calls for a Canada wide inquiry and now you're proposing this important legislation as a private member's bill. Why is this it private member's bill why isn't the government bringing forward legalisation?

CC: I think the government tried to delay. And clearly the government doesn't want to pay attention or give this rite to the media. And I think that's very important and I hope we will be able to progress this legislation and get it to the Senate and in the House of Commons in the next couple of months.

CO: Do you think you have any support in the Liberal government?

CC: In the Liberal government I don't. I will start here in the Senate. So it seems to have a big interest here on both sides. So I hope that it will be able to do that. And in the other side it will be the will the government to demonstrate what is seeing is also how he's acting. And it seems to be a part of the problem with this government. So what we see in regards to this matter.

CAROL OFF: We will be following, Senator Carignan thank you.

CLAUDE CARIGNAN: OK welcome.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was conservative senator and Senate opposition leader Claude Carignan. We reached him in Ottawa and we have posted that interview to our website site www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Electronica]

The Matter of Meat

JEFF DOUGLAS: It's a time of big decisions for our neighbours south of the border. Decisions made today that will set the course for tomorrow - the main course - because tomorrow of course is American Thanksgiving. A holiday which in many families is traditionally served up with a good deal of debate and one subject that seems to be cropping up more and more around the Thanksgiving dinner table is dinner itself in particular meat, but as our own Kevin Ball discovered the debate over how much meat we should be eating or whether indeed we should be eating it at all is nothing new. It has been going on for thousands of years. Kevin's documentary The Matter of Meat airs tonight on Ideas. Here's a taste.

SOUNDCLIP

I think we are facing a essentially a moral catastrophe in the way that we treat animals and given that, you do the best you can.

For over two million years and you look back at our evolution. There's all kinds of evidence showing that our brains are the size that they are because of our hunting and because of the extreme increase in nutrition that we got when we began eating the flesh of other animals.

Physiologically, we have a number of adaptations that are suited to eating meat. We know from various biochemical studies that the way that we metabolize certain nutrients or those of an omnivore.

It has affected everything that has actually made us human. And so to argue that we as humans shouldn't eat it for moral reasons or that it's ecologically bad to eat meat. I think those are wrong.

One third of the landmass of the earth is devoted to animal agriculture. It's unsustainable.

We have a moral obligation. Not to treat any sentient being as a thing. Right now animals in the United States and Canada every place on the planet are regarded as property. What I'm saying is that that's wrong. We cannot justify that.

JEFF DOUGLAS: The Matter of Meat by As It Happens director Kevin Ball, airs tonight on Ideas right here on CBC Radio 1 at 9:05 p.m. just after the news. And you can also find a strange version online at www.cbc.ca/ideas.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Nova Scotia tidal power script

Guest: Christian Richard

JEFF DOUGLAS: It is a first in North America. The switch has been flipped on the Tidal Turbine Test Project in Nova Scotia and its hydro power is now connected to the province's grid. And that means that from now on. Five hundred homes and businesses in the province can be powered through an in-stream tidal turbine generating from the Bay of Fundy. Local fishermen however, continue to make waves of their own because they are worried that the new technology will hurt their industry. Christian Richard is the vice-president of special projects at Emera that is the energy and services company behind the Cape. Sharp title venture we reached Mr. Richard in Halifax.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Richard, what did you see or what do you see when you look out of the observation deck?

CHRISTIAN RICHARD: That's the wonderful thing you see absolutely nothing. So when you look out from the force centre in Nova Scotia and look out at the Bay of Fundy where the Tidal Turbine is sitting there is nothing to see because the turbine is underwater.

CO: What does it look like? What does it look like underneath the water? If you could go there and take us?

CR: Sure. So it's a one turbine unit that's rated for 2 megawatts. And if you can imagine it's a it's a circular machine that's about 16 meters in diameter so that's equivalent to about five stories and it's just it's a huge inverted propeller. So instead of having a blades facing out their blades facing inwards.

CO: And does it operate all the time or only when the tides are coming and going?

CR: It is propelled by the total energy from the Bay of Fundy so as the tides go in it'll initiate the rotation of the device and generate a current. And as the tides go back out into the ocean it'll do the same. So that's what's really fascinating about this technology is unlike wind or solar where it's an unpredictable resource the flows into and out of the Bay of Fundy are completely predictable. And that's a great advantage for this type of renewable energy.

CO: You don't get tidal surges there then?

CR: There is some turbulence in the water. But for the most part the machine is able to recognize that and adjust for it and it's completely predictable.

CO: Now there are some concerns of the fishermen in the regions especially the lobstermen, who, in fact, they are complaining that you deployed this in the middle of lobster season and they said it was timed so they would be out at sea and they wouldn't be able to protest against the final operation of this what do you say to the lobster fishermen?

CR: We've had a lot of consultation with different groups for a very long time and the foresight itself has said over 100 baseline studies. We've also had a turbine installed in Scotland at a test site there and for 10 years where it's been installed we've never had any instance of a strike with a mammal or fish and our project itself you know we heard the concerns from the fishers this past summer and we took actually a voluntary pause to understand what those concerns were and we address those concerns.

CO: Well they say that the problem is that it is not just that the marine animals or mammals would be hurt. It's that the vessels that you have operating in the area making damage to lobster gear and then you get buoy lines that are cut loose, traps that are cut loose and then they get set adrift and they can harm other animals. What do you say to them?

CR: If there is if there is an instance of damage to a line we've made it very clear that we would have conversations individually with those folks and we would work to a resolution including monetary one of the tools that we have including monetary compensation for that.

CO: Well they're saying that it's not just the monetary compensation they're worried that animals might be hurt. For instance that whales might be hurt if they get tangled in those buoy lines that get cut loose.

CR: Part of the deployment process is a process that we've been able to design quite appropriately and we were able to execute it quite appropriately.

CO: If you did find that was the case would you slow down or not continue putting in more turbines?

CR: I mean one thing that we've made very clear as an organization and one thing that's very important to us is we will not develop the turbine - the tidal energy industry - on the backs of fishers or that industry in Nova Scotia. So part of our project is to ensure that we do it in an incremental way, that we learn from every step and that if there is harm that is caused that we will we will remove the turbine.

CO: How many turbines are you hoping to install there?

CR: During our demonstration project. We currently have installed one and we had a second one going in in 2017.

CO: And so this is a Bay of Fundy, so you think there will be more? You said that you hope to have more. How many turbines would you like to see in the Bay of Fundy?

CR: I mean there's potential to develop more I mean this tidal energy is a great source of energy because it is completely renewable and there are no emissions associated with it and it's too early to say how many we could install in the future. You know we have high hopes, but we're certainly focused on this demonstration project and understanding if there's any interaction or unwanted interaction between the turbine itself and the environment.

CO: Is this hydro power replacing other electricity that and other forms of other sources of electricity?

CR: As we continue to you know if we get through this phase and continue to deploy more turbines into the future it could very well be a source of energy that displaces other sources of energy most notably fossil fuel energy. So to answer your question yes, it is a source of renewable energy that could eventually replace coal or other fossil generation.

CO: But at this point this is additional energy this isn't replacing something that you are mothballing?

CR: That's correct, at this point. You know we have one two megawatt turbine installed. We will be deploying another two megawatt turbine and it's surely for demonstration purposes.

CO: And so how will you know if this is successful?

CR: I think once we have an opportunity to demonstrate that the technology can successfully extract the energy from the tides of the Bay of Fundy that's certainly one element and the other element is to be able to demonstrate that it does not cause any environmental harm. It doesn't cause any harm to fish or mammal.

CAROL OFF: All right Mr. Richard, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CHRISTIAN RICHARD: Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was Christian Richard the vice-president of special projects at Emera. We reached him in Halifax.

[Music: Ambient]

Las Vegas Knights

JEFF DOUGLAS: Last night the brand new Las Vegas hockey team unveiled its name and logo. And if you were there, you wish you hadn't been. After some unwelcome words from NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. Majority owner Bill Foley stepped up to introduce a video that would finally reveal the name of his team.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL FOLEY: All right, tonight after five months of waiting and work and fooling around with Adidas and trying to get them to come the direction and so on. We actually have created I'm very proud of our name and I'm very proud of our logo. There's a little video that kind of runs through the effort that evolved over the last the last five months or so.

GARY BETTMAN: the Board of Governors of the plan of expansion that will bring the National Hockey League franchise.

JEFF DOUGLAS: So what you're hearing right now is the sound of various executives and hundreds of fans staring at a giant video screen which is silently displaying the message "placeholder Vegas NHL hockey" and nothing else. And while everyone waited for the crew to figure out what was wrong. Someone interviewed Mr. Foley about how the NHL had wound up in Las Vegas. It was boring. And then the video was cued up and ready to go again. Finally we would all learn the name of the new franchise.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL FOLEY: All right, are we ready for that video? Are we ready for video? Let's roll it. We're getting close. Commissioner, do you got a quick second? Let's talk to the commissioner.

JEFF DOUGLAS: OK we got about 40 seconds out of that gap by the way. And what you just heard was people who did not want to see Gary Bettman in the first place, having to see Gary Bettman a second time. And if you listen very closely a bunch of AV people are being fired. And then finally this.

SOUNDCLIP

BILL FOLEY: Five, four, three, two, one. And there you go! The Vegas Golden Knights! The Vegas Golden Knights! Oh My!

JEFF DOUGLAS: Oh my indeed, and so after all that. There you go. The new NHL team is the Vegas Golden Knights so named according to Mr. Foley because quote, "Knights are the defenders of the realm and to protect those who cannot defend themselves. They are the elite warrior class," unquote. And that is very noble, but maybe someone should tell Mr. Foley they’re hockey players right? Anyway welcome to the league, I guess, although I'm not speaking for Quebec City. When I say that, here's Chilly Gonzales with Night Moves.

[Music: Pop]

JEFF DOUGLAS: From the Ivory Tower album this is Chilly Gonzales with Night Moves as golden nights or knight. You're listening to as it happens on CBC Radio on Sirius XM and Public Radio International. There is a CBC Radio app. It is free and it lets you browse through past episodes and start listening in just a few seconds. You can get it from the App Store or Google Play again free.

[Music: Pop]

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Part 3: Val-d’Or police, Lithuanian foreign minister

Maxime Bernier

JEFF DOUGLAS: Maxime Bernier has some big changes rather in mind for the old CBC, the Conservative MP is testing the waters for a leadership bid. And today he rolled out his plans for a public broadcaster that is more focused on local and international news and less dependent on money from advertisers and tax payers. Here is Mr. Bernier speaking in Ottawa.

SOUNDCLIP

MAXIME BERNIER: It would be important for CBC and Radio-Canada to do to reform for being sure to be able to raise the money from the private sector from donations from their viewers and like that they will act like a PBS in the U.S. For me the most important for the Canadian taxpayers is for the Canadian government it will cost less. We will cut the first year the 150 million dollars that the government give to CBC. The remaining budget of 1 billion dollars will be looked at. We will have to weigh The strategic plan for the CBC before doing anything. But I can assure you that it would be less than a billion dollars because of the mandate. It's it's a reform of the mandate and so they will need less money and if they need more money they will be able to raise that by the new model - a PBS model. And that's a big challenge for CBC and Radio-Canada. But I think that's the best thing to do because I think we need a public broadcaster in Canada in line with the new mandate to promote Canadian identity to promote news from all across the country in different regions. And I think there's a role to play that, but very big reform that I don't think that it's that it's a time for CBC Radio-Canada to have any game shows or kitchen shows or things like that. They must have a mandate that is different from the private sector. And the most important they won't be able to compete with the private sector on the advertising money. I think that's an important reform.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Conservative MP and conservative leadership hopeful, Maxime Bernier speaking earlier today in Ottawa.

[Music: Folk]

Toronto Lawyer Shot

JEFF DOUGLAS: Randall Barrs says he is 95 per cent recovered since he was shot in the leg back in September. But the Toronto defence lawyer still has a lot of questions about that day. Mr. Barrs was in the driveway of his law office in the Annex neighbourhood in Toronto. He was shot from behind in broad daylight. Mr. Barrs says he has never met his assailant before and he is still trying to understand why the man shot him? The lawyer also questions why Halton Regional Police, who had the area under surveillance didn't step in earlier to stop the shooting. Mr. Barrs spoke to CBC Toronto's Chris Glover about what he remembers in the moments after he was shot.

SOUNDCLIP

RANDALL BARRS: I lost a lot of blood. When I when I was hit I was shot from behind, you know by this coward and I didn't realise exactly what had happened me until I heard this popping sound like a firecracker - a whole series of them - and I didn't know what it was initially. And next thing I knew, I felt a slight burning and I was down. I looked at my leg it was just covered with blood. My shoe was covered in blood and there was blood going down the driveway. It was like bleeding profusely and then that clicked that I'd been shot. I don't know by who or from where. And I looked over my shoulder and I saw the guy. And as he was running to his car and he looked at me and I looked at him and the first thing I did is I got up on my good leg and I started hopping towards him and I put my hand on the car that was behind me - I guess he had blood in my hands and that's how she got blood in her car - and I realized after about three hops this is not a good idea. He's got a gun in his hand. I don't a gun. So just to make a U-turn I just started hopping towards the store and I went in I went inside and opened the inside glass door and fell like right where the girls are.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was Toronto defence lawyer Randall Barrs speaking to CBC Toronto's Chris Glover about being shot in the leg last September.

[Music: Easy listening]

Val-d’Or police

Guest: Fannie Lafontaine

JEFF DOUGLAS: Quebec Police are planning a new office in Val-d'Or, Indigenous officers will make up half the force there. Last week, prosecutors announced that they would not be laying charges against Val-d'Or officers despite dozens of allegations of abuse. Most of them made by Indigenous women. The new police pilot project aims to improve relations and that's going to be a challenge because some of the accused officers are publicly insisting that no abuse took place. Fannie Lafontaine is the law professor who reviewed the fairness of the investigation into those officers. We reached Professor Lafontaine in Montreal.

CAROL OFF: Professor Lafontaine, you found that the Val-d'Or investigation you thought was fair, but there's much more need to be done to address what had happened. So what do you think of this plan to add the new half Indigenous police unit to Val-d'Or?

FANNIE LAFONTAINE: Yeah it's a positive sign that Quebec is taking steps to improve relationships. Obviously that's probably not going to be enough. The Indigenous groups unanimously called for something that would look at broader issues - more collective issues - that underlie all of the allegations that were thoroughly investigated by the Montreal police. So it's a positive step it means this has been taken seriously. But it's only a first step.

CO: And you're talking about that they want an independent inquiry. The Premier says he hasn't committed to that. He wants the federal inquiry into them murdered and missing Indigenous women to handle that. So what do you say to him?

FL: Well, like I said in my report that the criminal investigations have been taken very seriously by the Montreal Police and that done a very good job which was done with integrity and pressure that good the criminal investigations are ongoing and are necessary. Other measures are necessary and I what I hear from the government in the past days is an openness to hear what Indigenous groups have been unanimously calling for and what I asked in my report what I thought was a good way was the formal consultation process between the government, police forces and Indigenous groups including women groups to find the right solution to complement if necessary the national inquiry and they can investigation. so I hear and I see these days an openness by the government which is very positive and so they should sit with Indigenous groups. Identify the issues that need to be looked at, see what the national inquiry can possibly do and try to find the right measures to complement it.

CO: At the same time we have seen officers appear on the news and in interviews. They are saying that the allegations of abuse that were documented by Radio-Canada they say they never happened. So what impact will those interviews have, do you think? That the officers are denying that this even existed these problems?

FL: Yeah, I think we should be very careful. I think the police officers have — particularly those who have been suspended — have been suspended and are in a crisis mode. They allege that they were sort of used as scapegoats and it is fair enough that they have an opportunity to speak out about their own individual cases. But we should be very careful about putting the credibility of the women spoke in the men as well at stake. It's not what's at stake here what they were told and this is what one of my role was that the Montreal police doing the investigation started from the starting point that the woman told the truth and then they would look at every possible reasonable path of investigation to find the truth. So I don't think we should put the credibility of these women into question this is not what this is about. The women told the truth. What happened? Now the criminal process has its inherent limits and it's not because there's no accusations or because these individual police officers have not been involved which may be the case that the broader picture isn't true and that the stories that were told by these people aren't true. So I think we should be very careful in not generalizing. These police officers have their own reasons they've been involved or not and they might want to tell their story that that's fair enough. That's their right. But we shouldn't generalize and say that everything that was said to the Montreal Police by these women is not true. So we should be very careful not to merge all of these issues together.

CO: So how do you square this circle? Because you have almost all of the allegations were dismissed because they believed that they couldn't meet the burden of proof that there wasn't enough evidence to bring charges they couldn't get convictions. That's why they were dismissed and at the same time your saying that these women should be believed, there's no reason to doubt them. So how do you resolve that? I mean how are these women going to get satisfaction if it's if it's believed that they were telling the truth and yet nothing will come of it in the way of charges. How do you square that?

CO: Yeah, it is a very difficult issue. And again it comes to the limits of a criminal process which has very high level of burden like a level of Proof that needs to be met by prosecutors going to court. in 21 of the 37 cases that involved 31 victims, despite all the investigation that was done and again my job is to make sure that it was done properly. No suspects were identified. So this is not because it didn't happen, but it happened a long time ago. It might have been dark. There's a lot of reasons why the memories of the victims are not necessarily very accurate on certain details that are necessary for the purposes of a criminal investigation. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen and so that's one thing and then in other cases you know suspects were identified, but it was very difficult to meet the burden. So it's really a distinct thing that one thing might have happened. And again we see that very frequently not only in relation to Indigenous peoples, but but generally speaking when sexual allegations are made. It's one thing to say that it happened. It's another thing to prove it in a court of law. So that these are two different things.

CO: How tense are things in Val-d'Or now that the complainants are still living there. The police are still there. How tense are things?

FL: Things are very tense. There was already a social crisis when this all happened in October, 2015. But it has certainly increased and put people at odds with each other and those believing the police don't believe in the women's increased attention. But I really believe that everybody is working towards the same objectives and that if they do talk to each other — we all talk to each other - we will find a way to calm down things and to bring solutions instead of just sitting on the problems.

CAROL OFF: We'll be following this story. Professor Lafontaine, thank you.

FANNIE LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Fannie Lafontaine was the legal auditor who reviewed the investigation into allegations of abuse by police in Val-d'Or. We reached Professor Lafontaine in Montreal.

[Music: Electronica]

From our archives: Jim Munro dies

JEFF DOUGLAS: Munro's Books in Victoria has twenty-four foot ceilings and Corinthian columns. National Geographic called it one of the top ten bookstores in the world and everyone who has ever been there would agree that there is some magic among its shelves on Monday. Jim Munro died. He was 87-years-old. He co-founded the store in 1963 along with his first wife, the Nobel Prize winning writer Alice Munro. Mr. Munroe retired in 2014 and passed the store on to for a longtime employees. The Sunday Edition guest host Laura Lynch spoke with Mr. Munro just after he announced his retirement. Here is part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

LAURA LYNCH: Can you tell me about the genesis of Munro's Books? What was it that made you want to get into the book business in the first place?

JIM MUNRO: Well, when I graduated from university I worked for the mighty T.Eton Company for 12 years and towards the end I was getting restless. I could see that. Eton seemed to be a huge ship without a rudder and I figured it was time to go. And there was a small bookstore in Vancouver. This was Eaton's in Vancouver by the way, a small bookstore a paperback store. Paperbacks were just coming into their own, so they asked me to help them with my retail experience and they wanted me to be a partner, but I didn't want that. But I thought I'd always loved Victoria because I got out to the west coast in the UNTD the University Naval Training at Esquimalt for two years and I just fell in love with Victoria. So Alice and I went over to Victoria put the kids in a movie theatre and checked the place. We didn't want them to know what we were planning and we rented a store a long narrow store on Yates Street and that was the beginning of Munro's books.

LL: You put the kids into the theatre when you were shopping for a spot to buy?

JM: That's right. They weren't too thrilled on moving from West Vancouver you know? it wasn't too earthshaking for them when they finally got to Victoria.

LL: Why did you pick that specific spot on Yates Street?

JM: Well it was right across from the movie theatres and it seemed like quite a good spot and there was a hotel with a pub next door, so it's always good to have a bookstore near a pub once.

LL: Really I didn't know they shared the same clientele?

JM: Well frankly sometimes they do, including the owners.

LL: Well it was a success from the start then was it?

JM: Well, it was a tough slug. I can tell you it was a long narrow store, mostly paperbacks. And we soon became the new-age bookstore. We had the City Lights Books Ferlinghetti and Corso and all of those very early on.

LL: A bit San Francisco North were you?

JM: We absolutely were. We were the first place in country that had City Lights Books and I ordered them and Ferlinghetti phoned me and wanted to know how you ship books in to Canada. Because they'd never had an order from Canada before. We also had personality posters and we had psychedelic posters and all the in stuff you know? So it was quite fun and quite exciting.

LL: Staying ahead of the curve from the start. Was it something about books that drove you toward the business? It was something that Alice Munro shared with you?

JM: Well we always were interested in books. You know, my major was English and history. It seemed like a natural for us. It was no easy hall you know it took a while.

JEFF DOUGLAS: That was Jim Munro co-founder of Munro's Books in Victoria speaking to Sunday Edition guest host Laura Lynch. Mr. Munro died Monday. He was 87-years-old.

[Music: Jazz]

Charlie Angus French

JEFF DOUGLAS: Usually Charlie Angus is not one to skirt around the issue. But today the veteran Ontario NDP Member of Parliament could not exactly confirm the rumours that he was running for his party's leadership, although he did offer hints. One of them being that he just resigned his position as the federal NDP caucus chair. He also seems to be brushing up on his French. Here is Mr. Angus speaking to reporters today including the CBC's Julie Van Dusen.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE VAN DUSEN: What are the pros. Well I guess what I'm trying to figure is if if there's an obstacle, I mean I'm listening to your French. It's really coming along is that an obstacle or do you feel comfortable with your French?

CHARLIE ANGUS: [French]

[Sound: laughter]

CA: [French]

JVD: Have you got a campaign manager?

CA: Well you know we're working on all these things. I've spoken to my mother and so you know I had to speak to my mother first so I did that this week. All the other decisions come after that.

JVD: What did your mother say?

CA: She said Are you nuts? And then she said Make sure you shave before you go on television.

CA: Have you talked to any of your colleagues about actually running or as have any of your colleagues come to you and urged you to run?

CA: You know we have good discussions all the time. But again these are very very early days.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF DOUGLAS: That's Charlie Angus, an NDP Member of Parliament in Northern Ontario telling reporters today that he is now considering a leadership run.

[Music: Folk]

Lithuanian foreign minister

Guest: Linas Linkevicius

JEFF DOUGLAS: Linas Linkevicius is nervous. Mr. Linkevicius is the foreign minister in Lithuania's newly elected government, but it isn't Lithuania's election that has him worried. It is the election that has just taken place in the United States and what it might mean for the superpower across his eastern border. Vladimir Putin's Russia. We reached Mr. Linkevicius in Vilnius.

CAROL OFF: Minister Linkevicius, Valdimir Putin says there is now an opportunity for him to normalize relations between Russia and the United States with Donald Trump taking office. If you could speak with Mr. Trump before that process begins what would you tell him about Vladimir Putin and his Russia?

LINAS LINKEVICIUS: Unfortunately legacy so far, experience so far was not promising. Russia is usually bluffing, intimidating and testing. The word testing would be a key maybe these days. Because they will be also testing what the administration is go going to do. How they are going to react to how soon very dangerous situation in the world. Russian aggression against Ukraine also stations in Syria, everywhere. And this lack of, I shouldn't say leadership but lack of active stands because of this additional process. It really is a difficult period. And the testing methods will be applied definitely. So I would really suggest to look at the things how they look on the ground not in the statements and intentions and definitely know that so far these efforts by Russia or whatnot were not very positive. And frankly Russia was not a partner in solution of the conflicts in the world.

CO: What do people in your country fear?

LL: I believe same in Lithuania same in all other countries in our region. What would be the reaction when in 21st century somebody tries to redraw change European borders 21st century. It's started not now, not yesterday. It was in 2008 after the war in South Caucasus and part of Georgia. So in countries was annex and the military buildup still continues. So creating a frozen conflict and through these conflicts trying to control the situation. This is also becoming a mess-up. So our feeling is mixed feelings. On one hand we are really glad that we are part of a bigger organization like NATO, like European Union. Really we can feel more secure. And this is completely different from those countries which are not part of these organizations like Moldova, Georgia also Ukraine. And they really feel very vulnerable. They really feel this uncertainty and this is really a crucial moment. For values to be tested. Are we ready to defend these values? Are we ready to notice when something dangerous is approaching? Are we are acting sometimes too late and sometimes too little?

CO: When you heard that Mr. Putin announced that Donald Trump had confirmed his willingness to improve relations with Russia what went through your mind?

LL: Mixed feelings and I believe will be again another test of the state and we really should be very vigilant and I hope that the U.S. administration by the way one of the features of U.S. policy was always continued their predictability and defence of values and principles main human rights was always always part of U.S. policy. I do hope that could change. I believe it will be. Maybe it could be some tactical action but I do not expect that will be a U-turn. With regard to the defence of these values and simply cannot imagine that.

CO: But it may be one has to try and imagine it? we are seeing an nationalism growing not only in the United States but throughout Europe. There is a move away from these multilateral institutions like you mentioned NATO. We've heard Mr. Trump question the value of being part of NATO that that must give you a great deal of concern?

LL: Of course, it should be concern for all who invested into security invested into NATO the most powerful organization in history. And definitely. But some comments maybe they were in such a way maybe but they were quite active and businessmen Trump was briefed about NATO and informed about how NATO is financed. He was not very happy. Then 70 plus per cent of NATO bills covered by U.S. Of course something is wrong. So this criticism was legitimate and Europeans should pay more attention to the security of the defence. Lithuania lately our increase of defence budget dynamics is the best among NATO and we we'll give no argument to that. We do not care ourselves about about defence. But I know that there were contact between elected president and NATO secretary general and they talked on phone and it was positive so to say. Comments about that and hope and believe that U.S. will stay as a key member of NATO in leading this organization as it was through decade. And by the way because of that of that organization was not another world war in the world. So these are new features which are coming in political campaign. Maybe maybe they were one kind of story with hope but now when responsibility comes, the situation and it changes. And I believe to get back to normal.

CO: But you know that Mr. Putin is no friend of NATO. And so if Mr. Trump is going to by saying oh well we need to see other countries contribute more to reinvigorate NATO that's not going to make Mr. Putin very happy is it?

LL: you know it's worthwhile to make somebody happy. So it important to be consistent and implement what we agree to do that way and do that in a predictable way. Positions will be cleared because Rusia is quite pragmatic country. Receiving clear messages and not necessarily receiving as offensive if it's clear it's clear. If it's not clear it is seen as a weakness.

CO: Just finally sir, there is a period of time between now and when Mr. Trump actually becomes the president in the middle of January. Do you regard that as a very unstable period of time for your country?

LL: I believe for all world, frankly speaking, yes this is uncertainty. And I'm really afraid that this period will be tested again and testing of our unity, our resilience of our ability to react in time. Very important period.

CAROL OFF: Minister Linkevicius, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

LINAS LINKEVICIUS: Appreciate it, thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Linas Linkevicius is the Lithuanian foreign minister. We reached him in Vilnius.

[Music: Ambient]

Ellen wins top prize

JEFF DOUGLAS: When she took to the stage. Ellen DeGeneres wiped tears from her eyes and she seemed uncharacteristically speechless. She was one of 21 people awarded the United States highest civilian honor yesterday. The Presidential Medal of Freedom and the tears were brought on by the introduction given by President Obama. Here's what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

BARACK OBAMA: It's easy to forget now when we've come so far. Where now marriage is equal under the law. Just how much courage was required for Ellen to come out on the most public of stages almost 20 years ago. Just how important it was, not just to the LGBT community, but for all of us to see somebody so full of kindness and liked, somebody we liked so much, somebody who could be our neighbour or colleague or our sister challenge our own assumptions. Remind us that we have more in common than we realize. Push our country in the direction of justice. What an incredible burden that was to bear. To risk your career like that. People don't do that very often. And then to have the hopes of millions on your shoulders. But it's like Ellen says we all want a tortilla chips that can support the weight of guacamole. Which really makes no sense to me, but I thought would break the mood because I was getting kind of choked up. And she didn't pay a price. We don't remember this. I hadn't remembered it, she did for a pretty long stretch of time. Even in Hollywood. And yet today, every day in every way. Ellen counter's what too often divides us with the countless things that bind us together inspires us to be better. One joke. One dance at a time.

JEFF DOUGLAS: From the White House yesterday, that was President Barack Obama awarding Ellen DeGeneres the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Well that is all the time we have for As it Happens for this Wednesday November 23rd. The news is next.

CAROL OFF: And a reminder to listen to Ideas on CBC Radio One for The Matter of Meat by As It Happens. Producer and director, Kevin Ball. It's on tonight. And we're back tomorrow. I'm Carol off. Good night.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And I'm Jeff Douglas. Good evening.

[Music: Theme]

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Nov. 23, 2016 episode transcript

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