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The Canada Reads 2024 Day Three Transcript

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Opening

ANNOUNCER: This is a CBC special presentation.

[tense game show music]

ALI HASSAN: It's the third day of the great Canadian book debate. We started with five titles -- all with the power to carry us forward. And we've said goodbye to two, so far. Three books are still in the running. Which one will be the next to go? We'll find out today. I'm your host, Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads.

[heavy rock theme]

ANNOUNCER: This is Canada Reads. Canada's annual title fight.

ALI HASSAN: Welcome back. It's been a thrilling couple of days. On Day Two -- yesterday -- Denison Avenue by Cristina Wong and Daniel Innes was eliminated in a dramatic tie-breaking votes. Naheed Nenshi you were championing that title. How are you feeling today?

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, it has been a wild 24 hours. [Ali Hassan chuckles] And I have heard from book lovers across Canada about [does a shocked voice] most shocking Canada Reads elimination ever. You know, since the last most shocking Canada Reads elimination. [chuckling] And probably the next one that is to come. And I just want to say thank you to these readers for their love for this book and their passion from which they're talking about this book with their family and friends. And that's really what this is about. And I've had the chance to speak with Daniel and Christina, and they would like me to just pass on their gratitude for this wonderful adventure they've been on, taking their little art project -- if I can -- about their neighbourhood and bringing it to such a huge, wide audience. There's one thing that I want to address, that I feel like, you know, maybe I was a little mealy-mouthed yesterday and didn't really say what I wanted to say. So, I'll use this moment to suggest that I think one of the really powerful things about this book is its use of the first-person. And it's playing with form in terms of the poetry, the poetic language and the prose. And to me, what's powerful about that is that it subverts your expectations. So, and I think that's what the book is actually about. That you think -- and you have biases in your head -- on what does a poor, elderly Chinese woman sound like? What does she think about? What are the priorities in her life? And the book is deliberately written so you can go, wait, she sounds like me! She thinks like me. I think that really is the choice that the author made, and one of the things that I think makes it so special. So, I hope that people will continue to talk to their family and friends about this book and spread the word. And I have a plug, which is Daniel Innes has very generously donated his original artwork for a fundraiser for the Fort York Food Bank here in Toronto. And if you're interested in bidding on some of these gorgeous pieces, just Google Denison Avenue art sale or check me out on social, and I'll put a link up there.

ALI HASSAN: All right. Thank you, Naheed. And thank you for that final reminder about why people should read Denison Avenue. Okay. On Day One, we said goodbye to Meet Me at the Lake by Carley Fortune. It was championed by Mirian Njoh. She became our first free agent. You seemed to relish that role from what I could see yesterday.

MIRIAN NJOH: Well.

ALI HASSAN: And you were the reason that Naheed's book was eliminated on Day Two.

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh my gosh!

ALI HASSAN: As you know --

MIRIAN NJOH: That's heavy! [chuckling]

ALI HASSAN: Naheed joins the free agency group. Any advice for him, Mirian?

MIRIAN NJOH: Welcome to the dark side. [several panellists laugh]

NAHEED NENSHI: There we go! Maybe I should have worn a less colourful outfit today.

MIRIAN NJOH: Should have worn all black.

ALI HASSAN: All right. Thank you, Mirian. Okay. [game show music] Mirian and Naheed are our free agents. They hold the power to decide which books go on to the final. Two books down, three still in the running. The Future by Catherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou. Bad Cree by Jessica Johns. And Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji. Let's check out the books still in play. All right, Heather, how are you?

HEATHER O'NEILL: I'm doing great.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. You're championing The Future by Cathrine Leroux, as we mentioned. Let's let's check out the trailer.

SOUNDCLIP

[a cannon fires]

WOMAN: The French arrived in the 18th century in what's now known as the city of Detroit. But what if they never left? In another time -- another space -- Detroit is now Fort Des Trois. It once gleamed with greenery. It now whispers of darkness, drugs and despair. [people talk in a concerned manner] Gloria moves into the neighbourhood, grieving her lost daughter, holding out hope for her missing grandchildren. On the outskirts of town -- [birdsong] along the Rouge River -- the flora is alive. The fauna are alive. Here, children roam wild, run free. [children talk excitedly] This is the future where we dream of beauty, of community. Where green grows, hope springs anew, where wild children's laughter echoes through the trees. [children laugh].

ALI HASSAN: Well, Heather, Naheed and Dallas both voted against The Future yesterday on, on Day Two. What are you going to do today to change their minds?

HEATHER O'NEILL: Well, I really want to talk about maybe aspects of the book that I haven't gotten to, like some of the voice, some of the magical realism, and I just need to enchant the two of them.

NAHEED NENSHI: Ah-ha!

ALI HASSAN: [chuckling] Enchanting. Thank you, Heather.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I love Disneyland. [Heather O'Neill chuckles]

ALI HASSAN: Dallas Soonias, feeling a little bit of a cooler breeze on your upper lip today. You've done, you've, you've, you've done away with your already iconic moustache.

DALLAS SOONIAS: I got to ask, was that written or was that you?

ALI HASSAN: That's me, Buddy.

DALLAS SOONIAS: That was golden.

ALI HASSAN: That's me. I only know you mustachioed.

DALLAS SOONIAS: This is true. This, and I'm not a mustachioed dude. I did it for a party in, like, November, so I realized, I, I don't feel like myself. I got to get back to it.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. [chuckling] All right. Oh no, regrets!

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: You're championing Bad Cree by Jessica Johns. Here's the trailer.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Mackenzie can't shake the nightmares. [eerie music] Every night, it's the same thing. [crickets] A relentless murder of crows attacking her sister Sabrina's body. [crows squawk] But the lines between the dreams and the waking world start to blur. [a woman gasps and breathes heavy] So Mackenzie returns to her northern Alberta hometown looking for answers. [calming music] There -- in the embrace of her family -- she begins to heal; letting go of the guilt, anger and pain isn't easy. [birdsong] But with dark forces threatening to swallow her whole, Mackenzie must fight to reconcile with her family, her traditions, the land and herself. [tribal drum].

ALI HASSAN: So, Dallas, Mirian cast a vote against Bad Cree on Day Two. What are you going to do today to make sure your book stays safe?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I'm going to -- as you so eloquently pointed out -- I haven't talked about the narrative in the book. I've been speaking about it overarching metaphorically. But I'll work to get into it today. And we, we spoke about this last night. It's a scary thing to, to get close to mansplaining -- especially to three incredibly intelligent women and his lordship. [Mirian Njoh laughs] Like, this is your world. This is where you guys live. So, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to keep up with you guys. But I will get into the narrative today. And hopefully, you'll understand why I chose the book because it's not a plant. I love this book.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah, that's, that's what I want to understand from you. You should know the book better than all of us and educate us about it. So, that's what I'm trying to see from you.

ALI HASSAN: I have an image of Dallas -- because you sit right across from me -- holding up your pad of paper, saying, I have notes today. Everybody will have time for their notes. Kudakwashe, hello. How are you?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Good. How are you?

ALI HASSAN: I'm great. You're championing the short story collection Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I am championing Shut Up You're Pretty!

ALI HASSAN: Let's check out the trailer.

SOUNDCLIP

[R&B]

[a basketball bounces, kids talk]

WOMAN: In Galloway, life can be tough. But Loli is a survivor. Forced to grow up too fast, longing for a sense of security, a sense of self, she ventures out into the neighbourhood and the world beyond its boundaries. But chaos and uncertainty follow her. [a thunderstorm rolls in] Yearning for a deep connection, she stumbles into uncharted territory. Slowly, she peels back the layers of her identity, femininity and sexuality. [a lighter flicks, a man grunts] As the shadows of grief, violence, and addiction creep into her life, [a pill bottle rattles] Loli turns to face the light, and embraces the beauty in the struggle. [birdsong]

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, you're in an interesting position. No one has voted against Shut Up You're Pretty.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: No one has yet, no.

ALI HASSAN: Yet. How do you keep it that way?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I also last night was on social media, and I really, like, what I love about this is that we really get to connect with the readers and what people are seeing. And, after seeing everything and hearing what Miriam said, Mirian said yesterday about not everyone having a Kudakwashe, I am here to be Kudakwashe. I'm here to be everyone's Kudakwashe, [Mirian Njoh chuckles] and guide everyone through the little speed bumps that I'm, you know, interacting with. And I'm here to champion this book and just to convey my experience with it. And I think that's all I can do. And I look forward to doing it.

ALI HASSAN: Thank you, Kudakwashe. Well, there you have it. [game show music] The three books remaining are The Future by Catherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou and chosen by Heather O'Neill. Bad Cree by Jessica Johns, selected by Dallas Soonias. And Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji, championed by Kutakwashe Rutendo. One of these books will be eliminated today, and two titles will go on to the final round. I'm Ali Hassan, and this is Canada Reads on CBC and Sirius XM. Get ready panellists, it's time to debate.

[heavy rock theme]

Writing Debate

ALI HASSAN: Well, we've talked a bit about our collective love for literature this week, but I want to compare and critique the three books on the table directly, as the writing styles for all three are quite different. I'm going to start with this question. Which contending book has a storytelling approach that you did not connect with? Mirian, we'll start with you.

MIRIAN NJOH: Oooooo, okay! You know what? I'm going to, I'm going to give you my strongest reaction to that was probably Bad Cree. And the reason why I say that is because --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Because you're hateful. Right on. Okay.

MIRIAN NJOH: You know, I need you to rest, okay? [Dallas Soonias and Kudakwashe Rutendo chuckle]

DALLAS SOONIAS: This is fine.

MIRIAN NJOH: Anyway --

DALLAS SOONIAS: I mean, you're already coming at me, so --

MIRIAN NJOH: Chill, bra. You're going to mess up my thought process, and I don't like this strategy.

ALI HASSAN: Your notes, your notes will come in handy.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yes, okay. Okay, so the reason why -- and I think even Naheed connected to this -- he said I thought this was a certain kind of story, and it turned out to be another story. Kudakwashe was like, you know, the wheetigo didn't get introduced until halfway through. That was something I had an issue with, too. I thought it was a book about one thing, and it turned out to be something else. I thought it was, like, a suspenseful thriller where Mackenzie was going to be haunted by the unrested soul of Sabrina herself or something. And then, that's what had to teach her about family, community. And halfway in, we are introduced, things get supernatural. We're introduced to mythical characters. There's environmental themes that are introduced. And, and obviously, this is important to Jessica. That's why it's there. But for me, I was like, wow, way to bury the lead. Like, is that what it's about? Because we didn't find out until halfway. And now, you're rushing the other half to get us through to where you want us to get at the end. And, and then, she has this type of storytelling where, again, I think we touched on this before. It's very, and then, and then, and then. And in the context of this new supernatural themes that were introducing, I have to suspend disbelief. And now, you're rushing me through. And you're, you're doing, you're doing too much. You didn't pace yourself. You didn't set me up from the beginning. And now, we're just running through at the end. And I didn't know if I loved that.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Personally attacks, attacks the author personally.

ALI HASSAN: Your response to that?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Well done.

MIRIAN NJOH: Stop this.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Hit me with it. You got the same argument.

MIRIAN NJOH: Do you want to respond to --

DALLAS SOONIAS: No, no, no, no, no. You were talking about the wheetigo yesterday.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I think Mirian articulated it quite well. The other problem that I had -- and just to add to what Mirian was saying -- so, a huge thing in the end is that what really gets the wheetigo to the land around Treaty 8 is the oil boom. And this is something that I think is a huge thing in Alberta. I'm Albertan.

NAHEED NENSHI: That's where you're from.

DALLAS SOONIAS: You're from nowhere. Right in that area]

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. I was like, I was like, I grew up in Fort McMurray, oil sands. So I was like, I really wanted more discussion about that, especially since, you know, there's like this little reflection that Mackenzie has where it's like, she's like, Sabrina didn't do anything. It's like all this greed, all this, like, the oil boom. And it's what summoned the wheetigo. But Sabrina had nothing to do with that. And I thought there could have been so much interesting discussion on the effect that the oil has had throughout the narrative. Not just towards, like, the end, in, like, act three, I guess. Throughout the narrative about the impact the oil boom has had on Indigenous communities in Alberta, because it has had such a huge impact on the land, on the people and I wanted to see a bit more of that.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Right. For those reasons, that's why the wheetigo is there in the first place, which I might just call the spirit from here on out.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Because you, you don't want to be summoning this sort of spirit. The wheetigo is actually there the entire time, right from the get-go. Like, if you look, as soon as you read the cover, the wheetigo is there. The crows are there. And the whole reason -- [snapping] you clued in -- the whole reason we didn't talk about this -- by the way -- he was just a smart dude. The whole reason the crows are there is to protect the ancestor, which is Mackenzie. So, why is so many, something there protecting? Well, because something is coming -- the wheetigo.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Can I butt in a little bit?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Go for it.

MIRIAN NJOH: So, I think -- to articulate this a bit better -- it's not, like, the way to go is present, but we as readers don't know that. And that's the roadblock. As readers, we did not know the wheetigo was the crows. And as a reader, you kind of want to feel like you, you have the possibility of figuring it out because all the clues have been laid out for you.

DALLAS SOONIAS: So, then you're saying The Usual Suspects or Memento, these movies are, they're not good art. The more you watch these things --

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh no, that's not what I'm saying at all!

DALLAS SOONIAS: I know, but let me explain.

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay.

DALLAS SOONIAS: The more you watch these, the more you see the nuggets the entire way along. The more you pick up on. Oh, that's what was happening! That's good art. When you revisit it, you see it. You see the story more and more. It's like, it's like a double agent, like some espionage-type stuff. We, as soon as you know, there's a double agent, oh, I know exactly what happened.

MIRIAN NJOH: Can you outline, sorry, like how -- as a reader -- what I see early on in the book that I was specifically the wheetigo?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: That's the thing.

MIRIAN NJOH: Right from the beginning, specifically.

DALLAS SOONIAS: So, it is a cultural thing. But, again, you're going to learn the, let me back up. You don't need to know that the wheetigo is there at the start.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Because we're looking at it through, we're looking at it through --

ALI HASSAN: Well, let me, Naheed, Naheed has been chomping --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Okay.

NAHEED NENSHI: Let me jump in on this because --

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know -- for me -- this is a genre question as well. Because I'm not a horror guy. I don't think I've ever read a horror book. And so, I approached this book with some trepidation, kind of the way I approach the romance with some trepidation. And I remember Dallas saying when we kick this off that it goes fast. And then, it's a real slow burn. And then it goes fast. So, the question of pacing that Mirian has raised. To me, that was actually a great value in this book. Because you want to unravel the mystery. If you go to see a whodunit, they tell you who the murderer was in the first act. Well, that's Law & Order. That's not a mystery show. And -- to me -- I thought that, that the fact that I was frustrated by thinking this was actually not about ghosts, that this was symbolism of murdered and missing Indigenous women and so on. I thought it was actually some of the great genius of the book. And, Ali, I think your question was which book did you not --

ALI HASSAN: Has a storytelling approach that you did not did --

NAHEED NENSHI: That I did not connect with.

ALI HASSAN: Connect with. And I think, yeah, let's put that back out there.

NAHEED NENSHI: So, let me, let me, let me just quickly say -- because I don't want to forget -- that when we're talking about writing craft. And in The Future, I just want to give a shout-out to the translator -- Susan Ouriou -- who is from Calgary! Way to go, Susan!

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Albertans around!

NAHEED NENSHI: All the Albertans! Because I also was reading The Future in the original -- in French. And man, Susan has captured this well. Captured Catherine Leroux's craft really well. This is a very clever book.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah.

NAHEED NENSHI: In some ways, maybe almost a bit too clever for me. It got a bit cold. It was a bit arch for me because it was like, look what I can do with these words in this story. But I will tell you that the one that I least connected with was Shut Up You're Pretty. And I want to really highlight the conversation that Mirian and Kudakwashe had yesterday, which is -- I think, for me -- the single thing that has changed my thinking the most so far in these debates. And when you said -- Mirian -- that the book doesn't come with Kudakwashe.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah, it's --

NAHEED NENSHI: And when Kudakwashe responded saying, yes, but it's so good on multiple reads when you find these Easter eggs. To me, that is actually the biggest problem I had with the book. So, Shut Up You're Pretty is the first book I read of these four. And I remember finishing it and saying, this is not my favourite. And that's kind of where I came into January with before I, we, just a little inside baseball for the viewers. I was told what the books were just before Christmas so I could read them over Christmas. I was not told you the defenders were. And we only figured out who the defenders were -- I think -- the day before we arrived in January. So, I was desperately Googling who are these people?!

ALI HASSAN: I want to get Heather --

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah, I can only just very quickly say, very quickly say, and Kudakwashe's opening defence on that day completely changed how I thought about the book. It zoomed up for me -- precisely because of her defence. But now, I'm thinking about this. And I'm going, if it's a book you have to read multiple times to get -- or you need a brilliant person to guide you through the book page by page -- I think that's actually a problem with the writer's craft.

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe, why don't you give a quick reaction to that? And I want to make sure Heather has something to say in this round as well before we end.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I think part of that is the beauty of literature is that you will not instinctively get every good book that you read. I think that's a challenge to the readers at times. And, of course, it doesn't come with me, but I don't think it needs to. I've read books from a completely different experience that you work to rea., because I think that's what, what we're doing here is we're bringing books to the platform that a lot of us, we're not from these communities. Do we have to do work to understand them, and to empathize, and to put ourselves in their shoes? Of course. But because we'd have to do work, it doesn't mean that it degrades the art any less. And I think, like, it's been brought up a bit that, like, they won't have a Kudakwashe. And the reason that we have programs like Canada Reads is so that, like, defenders can help share their experience and guide readers. But also, just --

DALLAS SOONIAS: In your defence, Gemini killed the book. Like, the audiobook, because that's how I experienced it. I don't need a Kudakwashe.

ALI HASSAN: Heather, let me get you in here.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I guess I'll respond to Naheed, who brought up The Future. And I do agree, the translator, if I was a translator book, I would not go to Catherine Leroux's book because it is so stylistically innovative. And I think it's, when you're saying she's too stylistic, what I find is interesting is that the book is put, is made into three parts. And the, and the middle part is in the forest where the children are hiding. And when you go in there, you enter a diff, almost, the language suddenly changes. It shifts, and it becomes, we're almost entering, like, a children's book. And it's framed like Peter Pan or like, with the Lost Boys, or even I thought of the Pied Piper, where the children have gone someplace because the parents don't, have lost their privilege to raise them. And then, the, it grows like a garden. And then, there are so many images, and I just go through it, and I just stumble upon them and kind of pick them up like wildflowers. And an interesting comparison to, to Bad Cree is Bad Cree uses horror. And so, it's a, it's a horrific, a horror landscape, not a horrific landscape, a horror landscape, which is really interesting that type of forest. And then, Catherine Leroux has a magical realist forest where you have the fairies and it's, magical realism is when you take the real world into something, you twist it a little, and the magic exists within that space. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: That is it for this round.

[game show music]

Setting Debate

ALI HASSAN: Okay. This round, we're going to talk about setting. Each of these books has a strong sense of place and setting. I want to ask you which book was the least effective in transporting you to a different place and why? Naheed, let's start with you.

NAHEED NENSHI: The least effective. That's interesting because all three of these books are really, they are books about setting. Four of the five books, I think. Actually -- really -- all five of them are really talking about these places in a very deep way. I would argue that Shut Up You're Pretty is probably the least effective in this way, but this is actually kind of a mild criticism. Because Shut Up You're Pretty is so much about Loli. And yes, she grew up in Galloway, but you could translate Galloway to northeast Calgary or south Edmonton -- to an ethnic neighbourhood. And -- for me -- Galloway sort of stood in as any ethnic neighbourhood. I didn't really understand the difference between Galloway and Thorncliffe Park in Toronto if we're sitting with Toronto, or -- frankly -- early Chinatown. So, I didn't think that the setting to that book was as important. Of course, the other two books are nothing without their settings. The Future is a meditation on a different Detroit. And what I really found interesting about Bad Cree was the light-hearted way in which she talked about Vancouver. You know, the organic peaches, [chuckle] on the on the Whole Food, and she, of course, she works at Whole Foods, right? But the contrast with the deep family setting of High Prairie in northern Alberta. So -- to me -- I would say the one that was least effective was Shut Up You're Pretty. But, but that wasn't her point. The setting wasn't as important to that book as it was -- I think -- to the other two.

ALI HASSAN: Kudakwashe.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I actually disagree with that. I think that Shut Up You're Pretty has a different setting. With The Future and Bad Cree, the setting is really rooted in the environment. But setting can be multiple things. And the setting for me here was very rooted in the community. The community aspect was the setting. And I think it's not hard to conceive that a community could be a setting. And what Téa really excelled that was describing this community so that you can visual it, visualize it. In Shut Up You're Pretty, Patty and Loli are sitting down, and they're saying that cars slow by instinct in these neighbourhoods that are neglected, and you can picture that.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah, that's a great, that's a great scene. Yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: You can picture what kind of neighbourhood needs cars to slow by instinct. You get this vivid picture of community. And just because it's not as rooted in the natural doesn't mean it's any less valid or any less potent. That's my thoughts on that.

ALI HASSAN: Mirian, what are your thoughts on that?

MIRIAN NJOH: On Shut Up You're Pretty's setting? I mean, I have to agree that I, for the other two -- The Future and Bad Cree -- you almost get the sense that setting is like another character. Like, it's that prominent and that integral to the story. Whereas, and maybe it's the short story format because we're hopping around, we're going, we're in different, you know, boyfriend's apartments over in this and that. And there's, and it's like, but I, it's so, I felt so caught up in making sure that Loli was literally going to see another day that I can't even, like, I'm too worried about, is this girl going to make it or is she going to succumb to the streets? And I don't have time, things are hopping around, we're in high school, we're in this boyfriend's apartment, we're breaking up. We're in Olivia's, you know, above a, like somewhere, like, it's just all over the place. And there's so many things that are grabbing me and, and needing my attention, and, and it's, and it's definitely not the setting. It wasn't for me.

ALI HASSAN: Heather.

HEATHER O'NEILL: What I found interesting about the, this comes to writing. All three of the books deal with grief, and ways that people are dealing with grief. And the way that Loli deals with grief is a lack of meaning, which happens to some people. And she is adrift. And then, I found in a way, and it's hard, it's interesting to say this and strange, but I'm just thinking it now. The writing in itself was a setting for me because I've read this book several times, and one of the things I love about writing is a musicality in the language. And I was like, there is a certain natural musicality in Téa's voice. And there was also something so recognizable. And then I was like, of course, she's from Congo. If this is, I'm hearing the, the, the whole journey her parents took. And I feel the French undercurrents in that movement. And it was almost like Loli didn't fit in to the environment, and she was always at odds of it, and then until she goes back home and sort of reclaims the home. So -- I think -- the setting as an, as an immigrant story is not only what is present, but what is in the past where she came from.

ALI HASSAN: Dallas, let me bring you into this and put the question back to you, which was that, you know, which book was least effective at transporting you to another, a different place in your mind?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I'd have to say The Future. I've never been to Fort Des Trois. I've never been to Detroit.

MIRIAN NJOH: It doesn't exist.

DALLAS SOONIAS: That's what I'm saying. I've never been to Detroit, either.

MIRIAN NJOH: You're missing out.

DALLAS SOONIAS: You have? Yeah, you're from there, right? Let's go! [Mirian Njoh chuckles] You have this, okay, there's many, [chuckle] I have many issues with the setting there. You have these kids living in a forest. I've never been a child living in a forest. But I have a young child, and I know if he was in a forest -- in this situation -- he would die very quickly. So, I had a very difficult time grasping that as, as a dad. And then, I had no idea is this, has an atomic bomb gone off? Or, like, what kind of dystopian setting is this? It's like there's still electricity, but there's, but you can't, like, the fridges aren't working sometimes. I never knew where I was. The setting never really, never really grounded me. That being said, the author -- as you mentioned -- it's a different type of writing. And I think as the layman -- who can't actually read, I have to listen to it -- things went way over my head. Like, I couldn't fully understand where they are. Like, it got to a point, I'm two hours into listening to it, I had to open the book, listen to it and read it, and still felt like I was missing a ton. And it's not like I'm super unintelligent, but I know things are going all over my head. And I think a lot of that was she didn't put me anywhere. It was all vibe. There was not a lot to grab onto in terms of the plot. Now, that's gone far beyond the setting. Apologies.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Okay, well, there's several points. First, I wanted to bring up because this is sort of, also a reaction to Lord of the Flies. And it's also -- from her research -- based on a true story that was in the news with an airplane that crashed, and children were living on this island. And what was interesting was that they actually started living in a very communal way. And it was completely different than what happened in the novel Lord of the Flies. So, it was almost like humanity's response. So, it actually, groups of children do, but it is, it also, once we get into the middle, it is magical realism. There are children who fly and --

DALLAS SOONIAS: You got a fairy who flies.

HEATHER O'NEILL: A wave. A way --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Because someone played an ocarina.

HEATHER O'NEILL: That lives in the branches. And then, he moves --

NAHEED NENSHI: Never comes down.

HEATHER O'NEILL: But it's so, but the way she describes his movement. And they nickname him Whale. He does move like a whale. Like, he's floating. And it's just the elegance. And it reminded me, you know, when ballet dancers have unusual forms or are larger. And just, I don't know.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, I think that, and I mentioned this a little bit yesterday as well. And I think that, you know, it comes down to we as readers and how we appreciate something. And so, I could appreciate, like, Whale -- for example -- that's such a good example. I could appreciate that. But I also am with Dallas on this one when I go, you know, we were sketching the setting. But I needed to understand it a little bit better. I needed to understand how it is that it's not post-nuclear bomb, that Gloria can move in and out of the community. There's freedom of movement, which leads to the question, why do some people stick around? There are soldiers, there are firefighters, and there are people who organize bus tours of the neighbourhood. And -- for me -- that was actually challenging because I was like, is this a real place? Is it a magical realist thing, as you're saying? But ultimately, I needed more from her beyond the beautiful descriptions of the setting. I needed more from her to ground me in where the heck am I? And why has this happened? I didn't need it all explained, but I needed a bit more.

DALLAS SOONIAS: In the author's defence. In the author's defence, I suppose you read the English version first. That's all I could consume. And I'm sure in translation, a lot of the French slang, a lot of, because she mentioned she wrote the thing in French, set it in a French place so she could use the slang. I think a lot of it was missed. It feels like the 300 pages could have been about 200, and it would have been just as strong. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: We'll have to leave it there. That's it for this round.

[game show music]

Interstitial

ALI HASSAN: Okay -- panellists -- Canada Reads is a celebration of great books, at its core. It's also a great competition, and it's been a pretty long, engaging two-and-a-half days already. Not done yet, but we do have some special words of encouragement to help get you to the finish line. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

[calming music]

GLENN HOAG: Hey, Dallas. It's Glenn Hoag speaking. Former National Team coach. I just heard recently that you traded your music console for books, so I want to wish you luck for the Canada Reads contest. I'm also going to put Jessica's book on my list. And good luck with the competition.

TANIS PARENTEAU: Tanisi, Dallas. It's your old pal Tanis Parenteau!~ I'm so excited that you are the person championing this book. You're going to kill it. It's going to be great. You're going to make some aunties out there real proud. You got this, Buddy. Let's do this!

[brisk piano]

DAVE ROBERTSON: Heather, it's Dave Robertson. I am rooting for you. You're the x factor! [Heather O'Neill chuckles] You're like wicked smart, super funny. You could probably get Canadians to read the instructions on a shampoo bottle! But don't take it from me. James, who you think is going to win?

JAMES ROBERTSON: Heather O'Neill!

JOHN L'ECUYER: Hi, Heather O'Neill. This is John L'Ecuyer in Montreal -- your biggest fan. You inspired me so much, Heather. You're such a brilliant writer, and I hear you making the case for Catherine Leroux's book The Future. And so, if you're championing it, that means I have to go out and buy this book and read it. You're a street fighter from the mean streets of Montreal, and I know you can make the case better than anyone.

[R&B]

ANITA MAZUMDAR-MOSCATO: Hi, Kuda. Honestly, the moment I met you, I knew you were destined for amazing things. I know that sounds cliche, but it's true. I'm so happy for you. And I'm so proud to be your friend. No matter how the debate turns out, I'll be cheering for you till the end.

D.W. WATERSON: Kuuuuuuddddaaaaaaa!!! It's D.W. Waterson, director of Backspot. I know you've been studying for weeks on end. It just brings me so much joy to see you in your element. I wish you all the luck, all the research and all the sleep after all the stress. Congratulations, and kick some butt.

ALI HASSAN: Those were the voices of Dallas's national volleyball coach, Glenn Hoag, and his friend, actor Tanis Parenteau. Heather's writer friend David A. Robertson and his son James. And John L'Ecuyer, director of the Saint Jude -- a film Heather wrote the screenplay for. And Kudakwashe's friend Anita Mazumdar-Moscato and D.W. Waterson, director of the film Backspot, which she stars in. I'm Ali Hassan. This is Canada Reads on CBC and Sirius XM. Let's get back to the debate.

[heavy rock theme]

Character Debate

ALI HASSAN: For this round, I want to talk about character. We have two novels and a short story collection on the table. But all three books feature a cast of compelling main and supporting characters. Which character from any of the three remaining books stayed with you the most and why? Is the question.

Mirian, let's start with you.

MIRIAN NJOH: I mean, that's a great question because it's, it's, it's open because you haven't, I don't have to give a reason as to why that character stayed with me. But who stayed with me? I would say it would be Loli. Loli stayed with me the longest. I mean -- obviously -- her, her voice is the most prominent in that, like, all of these stories really are so centralized to her as opposed to, you know -- like I mentioned before -- The Future that has a plethora of characters and even Bad Cree is very community-focussed. There's a lot of multiple voices. Loli's voice is, is loud, front and centre and it's, but I think -- for me -- it stuck with me because I was trying to figure her out. I was trying to -- for me -- I always look at a protagonist as the lighthouse for the reader. You know, you, you, you guide us through. It's your journey. We experience things from your eyes. And I struggled with her because I felt like I, we met her. She's obviously coming from difficult circumstances to begin with. And throughout the course of the book, we just watch whatever light she does have disappear from her eyes. Like, I was in distress. And so, it left me feeling really conflicted as a reader. So, that's, and that is why she stuck with me so much.

ALI HASSAN: Response to that, Kudakwashe?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. Loli stuck, I'm going to choose my own book just also any response to this. But Loli stuck with me because her character experienced things that I've experienced verbatim. I think we don't often talk about it a lot. And that's what was so hard for me. When Loli was hearing things that were hard for her, like, I'm just not attracted to Black women. I've heard that my entire life. In this day -- in this age -- I haven't been able to truly feel beautiful because in every instance I've been coming at my Blackness has come into conflict with that. And to see her struggle with issues that I've struggled with in that way. To see her struggle with things, that -- for me -- was, I've never had representation in literature like that. I've always had to put myself into other people's experiences. But no one has ever sat down and said, as a Black woman, sometimes people make you feel less. Sometimes, I have not been allowed to feel beautiful my entire life, and I struggled with it. And when I read that line -- when I read Téa's line -- that's what drew me to this book. Because I was like, here's a character that has gone through what I've gone through. And I know for some people coming outside of it, it's like, how can I reconcile this? How can I, I think -- really -- it's just a matter of, you know, it is, it's a different, it's a different experience. But it's such an experience. But to some people, it's my experience. And I never get to see that. And how she navigates life, and how complicated she is -- I think -- really speaks to the humanity of it. There's so many things that I didn't agree with. Like, Loli would do things, and I was like, gosh!

MIRIAN NJOH: I know!

NAHEED NENSHI: Inexplicably.

MIRIAN NJOH: I was like, didn't you learn, girl? It's killing me! I was like, she doesn't learn!

ALI HASSAN: Naheed, let me get you into the conversation here and ask you the same question. A character that stayed with you the most.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know what's interesting about these? This is my favourite question today because what's interesting about these three books -- in my mind -- is how they deal with caricature. So, in Shut Up You're Pretty -- frankly -- Loli is the only character. There's lots of other people, but they are supporting characters in Loli's life. And so, like, I loved Patty, but Patty served a purpose as here is Loli finally finding a woman who is supportive of her. And I love Jolie. And, you know, Jolie served a purpose as here's Loli finding someone to show her what it means to grow up, but in a bad way. But -- for me -- it was just all about Loli, which was great. That was, that was the writer's style. And I was mad at her a lot, you know, making choices that I was like, what are you doing?! Right? You don't need to do that. You're doing great. But there's addiction, there's mental health, there's a bunch of stuff in there. I would argue that in The Future, it's not about character at all. There are so many characters. Even now, I'm struggling to say, what was Gloria's neighbour's name? Eunice. [chuckle] What, which kid was the one that was the fairy? But it was. The, the characters were incidental to the, the setting, the theme, the picture she was creating. Bad Cree -- interestingly -- Mackenzie didn't stick with me very much. I found Mackenzie a bit irritating as well. [laughing] But the opposite of Shut Up You're Pretty is that the supporting characters were so beautifully rendered. And so, if you ask me, who sticks with me the most? It's the aunties in Bad Cree.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Ah, okay!

NAHEED NENSHI: And, you know, going out to bingo, standing outside, going, what, you think I'm some sort of shaman dream interpreter?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, yeah. You're right there! You're right there!

NAHEED NENSHI: But then going to karaoke, and being there for Mackenzie and a big way. And I thought it was really neat how those peripheral characters were built.

DALLAS SOONIAS: To your point, it was Tracy -- the sister -- that stuck with me the most, even though she's not even the main character. Because she starts so closed when you first meet her, she won't open up. Everybody knows people like that, and you just want to peel back those layers. And Jessica Johns -- in the book, Bad Cree -- I don't know where we are. She opens up that character, and you're like, oh, I know exactly what that person is like. I know that person.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Oh, I want to respond to, what you, like, to, because I do find that Gloria is what --

NAHEED NENSHI: Gloria has the best arc.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Holds it together.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yes! Yes!

HEATHER O'NEILL: Because, and then, I was like, what she does with Gloria's arc. And it's so difficult because when I was talking about grief, it's like we have regret with Bad Cree. We have the absence of meaning with Shut Up You're Pretty. But we have culpability with Gloria. And it's so interesting that she accepts responsibility and comes to this realization that she, she allowed her daughter to kind of disappear from her life and descend into opioid addiction and this kind of terrible situation. And when she comes to it, and she's such a soft woman, and then we realize that passivity, passivity can be a sort of violence and rage in itself and a sort of evil. And she comes to accept that in herself. And then also, and it handles duality, like, how that a victim can be a bad person. And we, we kind of are having trouble with this in, in society. And just, and then when she goes through the arc of forgiveness, and then she comes to terms with her daughter and she almost resurrects Judith -- her daughter -- from the grave. And it's like, yes, she was this, a person who became a monster because of the depth of her addiction. But she was also a girl with dreams who had this voice. And even people in the neighbourhood remember her singing.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yeah. You know --

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Can I, I'm sorry.

NAHEED NENSHI: Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Can i just, because I think you made a point. I liked how you and Mirian said that you thought that it was all about Loli. Because that's not how I read it at all. Since Loli was the constant, I think it actually brought the new characters to focus. In "Women Talking", there's a character Elizabeth. And Loli's talking to her, and Elizabeth is outlining how, like, you know, I think I want to shave my head off. And -- for me -- I was like, whoa! Because you're seeing how -- for me -- that was just almost like a vehicle to say she just wants to free herself from the expectations that are held upon her. If she goes and does this big thing, then she's done it. She's become what everyone's afraid of. For me -- when I read Shut Up You're Pretty -- since it's short stories and I, like, you know, the short story format --

NAHEED NENSHI: You only see Elizabeth for two pages, yeah.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah, yeah, no. But that was like, the thing is, with every short story, you hyper focus on the new characters. Loli is constant. We know Loli's history. We're following her. But we get these new characters. And inversely, relating it to another thing that I really liked about The Future -- for me -- is I really liked how, I actually counted. In two pages, we were introduced to 11 characters. And somehow, at first, I thought I would be daunted, but I actually managed to keep track of them. Because -- for me -- the children were very alive. I thought that, I loved how their names kind of reflected different histories for them. And -- for me -- that was very interactive. And I thought at first that I wouldn't be able to keep track of them because there is a lot of children. That was one big thing for me. There's a lot of kids, [Canada Reads bell] but I thought it was well done and that I could.

ALI HASSAN: That is it for this round.

[game show music]

Ending Debate

ALI HASSAN: Okay. Final round. On Day Two, free agents Mirian and Naheed got into an interesting discussion on whether a good book needs to have a happy ending? So, we wanted to explore that idea. [Mirian Njoh chuckle] Bearing in mind that we might get into spoiler territory here -- if we haven't already. Of the three titles still in contention, [papers shuffle] which book had the least satisfying ending, Mirian?

MIRIAN NJOH: Okay, so I want to clarify. I am not the happy endings queen, okay? I, it doesn't have to have a happy ending. But it needs to come to resolution. That's what I was saying. I need, whatever you bring to me, don't just drop it at my feet. Do something with it before you finish the book. And the question of which one -- you said -- which has the least satisfying? Well -- for me -- The Future probably had the most satisfying, I would say the least satisfying, dang! I hate, I don't I don't want to keep harping. I feel so bad. [chuckle] But I have to be honest, I don't feel like I had hope for Loli until about 11:59 of the book. Like, when she's like, you know what? Maybe I should call my mom.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yes.

MIRIAN NJOH: I'm like, thank god, girl! [several panellists laugh] Because we were all rooting for you. And she finally got it. And so, that's the, I wanted, at least Bad Cree, we start to wrap up a little bit more. You could, you could feel The Future's, The Future's arc coming, coming down in the plot. Loli didn't get there until 11:59. She was like a buzzer-beater.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know? Can I, can I jump in on that? Because I think Kudakwashe will want an interesting answer to that. I 100 per cent agree with you because I think that the ending -- and spoilers -- the ending in Shut Up You're Pretty was unearned. Because we never understood the root of Loli's challenge with her mother, and we never saw her go through an arc to say, all right, I need mothers in my life. You talked about this yesterday, Kudakwashe. And -- of the mothers in my life -- I actually need my own mom. We never got there. It was too unwritten. So, you have this beautiful ending story -- "Tilapia Fish" -- where they're making tilapia together, which harks back to making tilapia earlier in the book. But we just sort of ended up there, and it felt to me -- just as you say, Mirian -- like, oh, I got to finish the book now, and let's write the final story. [Mirian Njoh chuckles] And because I heard Téa speak with Kudakwashe, I know she wrote that final story long before she finished the rest of the book. And I felt like we didn't get to it. It just was there. So -- for me -- that was less satisfying.

ALI HASSAN: Okay, let's turn to Kudakwashe for her reaction.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Yeah. So, I think -- first off -- the one thing about Shut Up You're Pretty in comparison to the other books is it is a collection of short stories. So, while as much as we are looking at it as a narrative, also individually, it's made to stand, like, it's, it's following a lot of conventions of short stories. But within that, I do think within the short stories there is a thread. And because they're independent, you really have to isolate all the relationships with the mother. It's interconnected, but it's not necessarily linear. So, I think a lot of some of this is just from reading it linearly. So -- for me -- when I was reading the end, because I was uplifting the stories and working together -- looking at them separately as well as, as a whole picture -- it was satisfying for me because what Lolil was struggling with throughout the whole story, you see this desperation. And when I got to the end, I was hurting, I was sopping, I was saturated. Because -- like I said before -- one of the biggest things in that for me is that I had never felt beautiful my entire life. I had felt so many of these, the world coming in conflict with my Blackness my entire life. And I felt like I finally had permission to mourn reading this book. And I get to the end. I get "Tilapia Fish". And then, her mom is, it's illustrating what her mom was doing, saying the words when she was trying to learn English, here we buy.

NAHEED NENSHI: Here we buy.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And this becomes a symbol of perseverance, of continuing on when it gets tough. I don't think necessarily we're talking about happy endings, but I was like, there's a promise of hope, of possibility. And that's what I wanted. I want possibility of something. I don't want a concrete answer that it's going to be okay. Because, again -- like, for me -- I feel like --

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, I didn't get that at all. It felt shoehorned in. As the story was written long before, it's like the editor was like, well, we need something. We have to make sure there's a positive ending. Bang! She put it in.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Okay. To circle back to this, with Bad Cree, one thing that I struggled with in terms of the end is I felt that, I liked how, I wanted at the end, there was a section where Mackenzie is saying that, like, you know, maybe the bad isn't like that bad. And, like, bad is part of it. Like, the bad is something that we don't necessarily have to reconcile.

DALLAS SOONIAS: This is true.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And I, yes, and I really, really loved that. But then -- as it continued to go on -- I felt like I kind of lost the button as much. And, like, it had buttoned it so beautifully. But then, it continued on in an expanse that I wasn't sure it was pushing that final narrative as much as I wanted.

DALLAS SOONIAS: It had a button. It actually had a button, but you felt like the book went a little too far, then?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I feel like --

DALLAS SOONIAS: There's too many pages after?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I feel like that there was a button, but the book continued to go on in a way that I kind of lost the sense of that button.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Did you not like when, when Mackenzie and her grandmother, they get to reconnect? Like, was that, was that past the button?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: That's not, no, from the end I'm talking about, it's when she's with Tracy and her sisters, okay? So, this is past when she's with --

ALI HASSAN: Heather, let's get your opinion on this one.

HEATHER O'NEILL: I was going to talk about the end of my own book because nobody brought it up. [Kudakwashe Rutendo and Mirian Njoh laugh]

NAHEED NENSHI: I was about to talk about it but you can do better than I can!

HEATHER O'NEILL: I can't even contradict anyone, so I'll just have to speak positively. But there's a scene in, in The Future where we see a deer. And the children -- at first -- think he's eating berries. But then, you realize the deer's face is covered in blood. And -- for me -- that was such a shocking image.

NAHEED NENSHI: Yes.

HEATHER O'NEILL: And the idea that children are living in the, in the park with the animals. And she describes how the animals, they know the contours and they kind of exist in, it's all that nature is suffering from the eco terrorism. And when, when a plant is exploded or a building is exploded in a not environmentally-friendly way, it poisons the water. And that deer has been poisoned. And then, the children become poisoned. And what Catherine Leroux takes us to is this idea of the future, it belongs to the children. And they have to take responsibility for it. And, and it's not fair for us to give children a world that's so broken, and messed up, and is, it's poisoning them and all the creatures that they love around them.

NAHEED NENSHI: Can I just say that I --

ALI HASSAN: Final word to Naheed.

NAHEED NENSHI: I loved the ending of The Future precisely because it wasn't a happy, happy ending. And the divergent paths of the two granddaughters -- I thought -- really put a point on it in a way that Shut Up You're Pretty -- for example -- didn't quite get to the ambiguity of a happy ending doesn't have to be all that happy. [Canada Reads bell]

ALI HASSAN: That is it for today's debate.

[heavy rock theme]

The Vote

ALI HASSAN: It's time to vote.

NAHEED NENSHI: Geez!

ALI HASSAN: Okay -- panellists -- you have your ballots in front of you. You've gotten to know these ballots quite well. Mark an "X" beside the book you want to eliminate from the competition. Once you voted, Charleen from the Canada Reads team will take your ballot. A reminder that there are no secret ballots on Canada Reads. And a reminder that Meet Me at the Lake was eliminated on Day One. Denison Avenue was eliminated, eliminated on Day Two. A third title will join them in just a few moments. Will it be The Future, by Katherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou? It's the title chosen by Heather O'Neill. Will it be Bad Cree by Jessica Johns? Dallas Soonias is supporting that novel. Or will it be Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji? This short story collection was selected by Kudakwashe Rutendo. Which two books are going to head into the Grand Finale tomorrow? That is the big question. I think we, I think the table is, is, is similar to how it often is. Some people have it in mind exactly how they're going to vote. I feel like Dallas -- across from me -- and Mirian -- almost across from me -- both took a little bit more time.

MIRIAN NJOH: It's hard.

ALI HASSAN: And, yeah. And -- I think -- Mirian, you were put in that position early on to make a decision that was difficult. So --

MIRIAN NJOH: I don't want to find myself there again!

ALI HASSAN: You don't want to find yourself there again. There are no guarantees on Canada Reads.

MIRIAN NJOH: I am aware [chuckling]

ALI HASSAN: And -- of course -- hopefully you don't. But, yeah, I think the tension at this table is, is palpable. And, with good reason. We, I have the ballots right here. Thank you, Charleen. Okay. Mirian Njoh, how did you vote?

MIRIAN NJOH: Oh, thank god! Okay, no shade.

ALI HASSAN: Uh-huh.

MIRIAN NJOH: But I voted for Bad Cree.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, I know.

ALI HASSAN: One vote against Bad Cree.

DALLAS SOONIAS: It's all good.

ALI HASSAN: Naheed Nenshi, how did you vote?

NAHEED NENSHI: I voted to eliminate The Future.

ALI HASSAN: We have one vote against The Future. One vote against Bad Cree. Kudakwashe Rutendo, how did you vote?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: I voted to eliminate Bad Cree.

ALI HASSAN: We have two votes against Bad Cree. One vote against The Future. Dallas, how did you vote?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I voted against The Future.

ALI HASSAN: Okay. You have two votes against The Future and two votes against Bad Cree. Heather O'Neill, how did you vote?

HEATHER O'NEILL: Wait, what is it? Two against The Future, two against Bad Cree?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Pa-chew.

ALI HASSAN: A finger gun came out.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Oh! Not the kill shot!

NAHEED NENSHI: Finger gun! [several panellists chuckle]

ALI HASSAN: Bad Cree has three votes against it. With that, Bad Cree has been eliminated. [Canada Reads theme] Okay, Dallas, I know there was, there were some things riding on, on this for you. I know that something that the radio audience maybe can't fully appreciate is every time somebody spoke, whether it was a coach, or a friend, or filmmaker, I saw your head go down. You were so humbled. It felt -- to me -- that you were so humble, you couldn't even sort of look up. You just felt like this is a responsibility I have. So, I want to ask you -- in light of that -- how are you feeling?

DALLAS SOONIAS: Well, now I'm remembering that.

ALI HASSAN: Yeah.

DALLAS SOONIAS: The man Glenn Hoag was, he's formed the lives of so many people. He's changed the sport that I played for a very, too long, in this country, and brought it from when I started on the national team. We weren't really that good. We didn't really have a great organization. So, when I left -- actually, like two months after I left -- the team goes to the Olympics. And they've been there for three years in a row, so the man should have a statue somewhere. I'm glad you gave me the gun. And the heart to Jessica Johns. [Heather O'Neill chuckles] Because that's exactly what it is. The book is undeniably good. But it's me. Like, I understand --

ALI HASSAN: Right. And the person that gave you the gun -- by the way -- I'll just let --

Right, radio!! [Heather O'Neill chuckles].

ALI HASSAN: It was Heather O'Neill. It was not --

HEATHER O'NEILL: I confess.

DALLAS SOONIAS: So, it is, it is me. It's not the book. For the radio audience, it's -- I mean -- you've been listening to me blunder around for three days. It's, it's not, the book is brilliant. This is just -- turns out -- not my, my strength, you know? You got two people here --

MIRIAN NJOH: Don't beat yourself up.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Who can read 800 words or 800 pages a day. I have to listen to this stuff. Maybe I'm just making excuses for myself. Point is, [yelling] Bad Cree! Read it, everybody.

ALI HASSAN: I will say, Dallas, I don't think, you know what? I've said this all week. I don't think anybody at this table can be faulted for not being passionate enough about the book that they were championing or being unprepared or being, you know, not bringing their A-game. I think you all did that. But the nature of this game is, is such that we debate and panellists are voted off. And so -- with that -- we do say goodbye to Bad Cree. [Canada Reads theme] We're also saying goodbye to the folks who are listening on CBC Radio right now. If you're online or watching on television, we will have a few more minutes with you. I know there was still much to be said at the table. We'll have a few minutes for that. Things that maybe didn't come up today that you would have liked have said, there will be some time there on TV and online. And then there were two. The two remaining books are The Future, by Catherine Leroux, translated by Susan Ouriou, defended by Heather O'Neill. And Shut Up You're Pretty, championed by Kudakwashe Rutendo, written by Téa Mutonji. [Canada Reads theme] That's an eventful Day Three. Tomorrow, we find out the one book all of Canada should read.

[game show music]

ALI HASSAN: Okay, that is a wrap on today's debate. Let us unwrap --

HEATHER O'NEILL: I feel like I have to say.

ALI HASSAN: Yes.

HEATHER O'NEILL: Dallas, I thought you're great. And also, one of the things that makes Canada Reads amazing is that they take people from all different walks of life. Because we want people to know that anybody can talk about books. And you did a wonderful job.

ALI HASSAN: Even people from Alberta, right?

MIRIAN NJOH: I mean, if I can feel that way!

NAHEED NENSHI: Even three people from Alberta!

ALI HASSAN: Yeah, I wouldn't sell yourself short by any means, by any means. And -- in fact -- the fact that you read like you do, you know, audiobooks are your preferred method. I mean, that is --

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: The truth for so many people. That's accessibility.

MIRIAN NJOH: I do, too. I read all these by audiobook.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: Books should be accessible.

HEATHER O'NEILL: What's, what I want to say for viewers at home is if anybody has a child with dyslexia -- because my daughter had dyslexia -- introduce them to audiobooks because the chances are their capacity to listen to audiobooks is well above, it moves so much faster than their ability to read on the page. So, if you don't get them audiobooks, you're not giving them books they really need for their intellectual level. And it's just a gift. And we, we didn't have it when we were younglings. Even with my daughter, I would just read her book after book because I didn't want her to miss out on the love of literature. And dyslexic kids, they just shove them into a box and tell them they're not doing it right. So, if you have a child with any of these disabilities, introduce them to audiobooks.

NAHEED NENSHI: You know, can I say one thing about Bad Cree?

ALI HASSAN: Yes.

NAHEED NENSHI: Which is that a friend of mine -- who is a voracious, like, Kudakwashe-style reader -- sent me a note, and she said, this will surprise you to know that I hate it when people say things like artistic prose or, you know, interesting, character development or theme. Because she's like, I just want to read a book for the story. And -- for me -- the thing that I, one of the many things I really loved about Bad Cree is that although it's serious, it's also funny. It's also brilliantly written. And if you want a book that, you know, for someone like me who's trying to get back in to reading, this is just, and I'm not, I'm not demeaning it. I think it's brilliant for this reason. It takes you through really difficult themes in a way that you can really feel like you're there. Like, the the scene in the karaoke bar was probably one of my favourite parts of the whole thing. And I just -- I think -- Jessica Johns is great. And, you know, one of the really interesting things is three of these are debut novels. Meet Me at the Lake is a second novel. Catherine Leroux is, like, an accomplished writer, but I think this is only her third book, maybe her fourth. And so, we're seeing some real new and interesting talent coming forward, and there's a lot we're going to hear from Jessica Johns.

ALI HASSAN: Dallas, you had, you held up the book to the screen, and you said, read this book, but I know you do have a relationship with the author as well that's formed over the last few months. Is there something you'd like to say to Jessica Johns in this moment?

DALLAS SOONIAS: I mean, I'll probably talk to her later, but I'm sorry, Jessica. I told you I'm going to do the best I can. Like, she had the worst deal out of all these authors that she was probably. Oh, my show is on Canada Reads! Wait, it's a guy who can't read defending the book, you know?

NAHEED NENSHI: Entirely about women.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Yeah, exactly, right?

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: You know what, though? At the end of the day --

DALLAS SOONIAS: But the book spoke to me.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: All these books are fantastic. And all, so many are bestsellers, I'm sure Jessica --

ALI HASSAN: All five are!

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: We're between a rock and a hard place. These are fantastic books. We're making hard decisions and making these critiques, but they're all fantastic. This is fantastic Canadian literature.

DALLAS SOONIAS: Now that the show is over.

KUDAKWASHE RUTENDO: And Jessica Johns has a fantastic crossover appeal for like, all sorts of, you know, sometimes, things in a genre.

MIRIAN NJOH: Yeah.

But it's like, this is definitely crossover.

MIRIAN NJOH: I love that about it. Because, and that's how I felt even I had the same sentiment that Naheed had is -- again -- this is a book about all of Canada should read this. And I, and this is the, a compliment when I say Bad Cree so accessible. Like, that is of strength of the book. Yeah, we have our critiques and we can get down to the minutia of, of it, but it's such an accessible book. And that's a great thing.

DALLAS SOONIAS: You know what's happening right now? Jessica's watching this, and she's saying to the people she's watching it with, why didn't Dallas say all of that, you know?

NAHEED NENSHI: No, no, no.

DALLAS SOONIAS: No, she is, though. She --

NAHEED NENSHI: I want to jump in --

ALI HASSAN: I strongly doubt that.

NAHEED NENSHI: For me, this process has been so interesting because I came in with my opinions on all these books. And listening to all of you talk -- all of you talk about these books -- has really shifted my thinking. And for, for Dallas -- for you -- I had the advantage of doing this event with you in Calgary with Jessica Johns recently. But for you, I will tell you something. And I'm not just blowing smoke here, is my challenge with the book is that I don't, I didn't think the first time I read it that it addressed the big Indigenous themes. And your defence -- from the beginning -- has helped me understand that that is the genius of the book. That she addresses these themes, even though you think you're reading a book about anties at karaoke, that it is about addiction, it is about residential school legacy and all of that. And I would, I would not have gotten there without you taking me down there.

ALI HASSAN: With that message, we have to leave it there. [game show music] That is a wrap on Canada Reads today. My thanks to our panellists, Naheed Nenshi, Kudakwashe Rutendo, Dallas Soonias, Mirian Njoh and Heather O'Neill. They'll be back tomorrow to make one final decision. We will see you then. I'm Ali Hassan. Until then, read on, Canada.

[heavy rock theme]

The Canada Reads 2024 Day Three Transcript

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